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CNN International: Police Fire What Appear To Be Rubber Bullets On UCLA Campus; Biden: Peaceful Protest Is Protected, Violent Protest Is Not; Police Dismantle UCLA Encampment, Detain Protestors. Aired 11a-12p ET
Aired May 02, 2024 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
PAULA NEWTON, CNN HOST: And a very warm welcome to our viewers. I'm Paula Newton at the courthouse in New York where Donald Trump's hush money trial is now underway.
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN HOST: And I'm Becky Anderson with major developments in the pro-Palestinian protests at the University of California at Los Angeles. In the last few hours, a police operation to clear the campus grounds has now been completed. The protesters have been led away, and officers have been breaking down and clearing that tent encampment.
Well, any minute now, we expect to hear from President Biden for the first time about the protests that have spread across the nation, and we will bring you those comments as and when they happen. His remarks will come just hours after intense scenes at UCLA's campuses. Police detained multiple protesters. This after weeks of demonstrations against Israel's actions in Gaza. Let's get you live images from Los Angeles where -- these aren't live images, I'm being told now, but these are images where law enforcement overnight was clearing the encampment. Shortly before 3 a.m. local time, the school called for protesters to disperse or face arrest, and the LAPD declared the camp to be unlawful.
Well, before dawn, police started detaining protesters, knocking down tents and pulling down barricades. At one point, police fired what appeared to be rubber bullets on campus.
Let's get you to Camila Bernal, who joins us live on the scene at the Los Angeles campus. A very much quietened scene, Camila, compared to the hours overnight. Just describe what you witnessed, what went on.
CAMILA BERNAL, CNN U.S ATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Becky. It was chaotic. It was at times violent between those protesters who were one by one getting arrested by CHP officers, California Highway Patrol officers. And you're seeing the bus here behind me. That's where a lot of the people that got detained were being taken into these buses, a total of 132 at least, 132 people were arrested overnight. We saw a lot of flashbangs. We actually have the casings here and you're going to see them all over the floor because that's what authorities were using to disperse the crowds, to surprise the crowds.
Like you mentioned, we do believe we saw some rubber bullets also being shot at these protesters who were actually, we were told, throwing things at these police officers. They were using fire extinguishers. There were some officers who were actually covered in that white powder from the extinguishers. But, they were thrown things. We were told that they were being thrown bottles and smoke and other things. So far what the Highway Patrol is saying is that none of their officers were injured. We were told inside of this encampment, there were between 200 and 300 protesters. But, you had about 250 California Highway Patrol officers plus other officers from other agencies. So, when I asked authorities, were you essentially a one-to- one ratio? That's what they told me. Yes. We were basically a one-to- one ratio.
I want to sort of go over to this side to show you what's going on because we are seeing more officers in riot gear coming into this area. You're also seeing a lot of the security guards. Those are the guards that had been here throughout the week. And like I mentioned, this whole encampment has been cleared, but there were a few people that came back in. And so, CHP was saying that we're giving people the opportunity to leave peacefully before getting detained.
Now, it is the university police that is going to charge these students. We were told that the investigation will now be in the hands of the university police. They will decide whether or not or what charges these people will face. But, they are, we were told, being taken downtown to a detention facility and then it will be the UCLA Police and really the staff here that will decide what happens to a lot of these protesters. But, as of now, the encampment has been cleared.
[11:05:00]
You're seeing the police presence still here on campus. But, most of the area has been cleared. There really are just a handful of people and reporters, but a handful of people that have chosen to stay here. And I do believe, according to what the Highway Patrol told us, is that they were going to clear this entire area, have everyone leave this encampment. But, as you're also seeing, there is so much garbage there. Tents and blankets and food and all sorts of objects scattered all over this area. So, there is a huge cleanup process to do here. But, in the meantime, as you're seeing, just a lot of the security guards and a lot of the officers who are still here on campus. Becky.
ANDERSON: Good to have you. Thank you very much indeed, a real sense of the moment there at UCLA after what were scenes of the significant use of force by authorities on protesters there on the UCLA campus. We are waiting for U.S. President Joe Biden to speak.
CNN's Arlette Saenz joins us from the White House. We've just found out that this is about to happen. As we await to see the U.S. President, what can we expect to hear from him? ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Becky, President Biden has stayed relatively quiet when it relates to these protests across college campuses in the United States. Really, his last remarks on this topic was 10 days ago when he decried antisemitism but also said that there are people who don't understand the concerns of the Palestinians.
What this episode has really highlighted is President Biden trying to strike a very delicate balance relating to the protests. We've really only heard from the White House spokespeople and written comments relating to the protests on these college campuses. The White House has tried to stress that Americans have the right to peacefully protest, but they have called out episodes of lawlessness that they have seen, including those student protesters who had stormed and barricaded themselves in that administrative building on Columbia University's campuses earlier in the week. Now, the White House has really stayed away from commenting on the law enforcement actions and also the actions of the university officials to try to disrupt and disperse these protests.
But, what you've also heard the White House trying to stress is that Biden's focus has been on pushing back against antisemitism, which is what we heard him say in his very first comments relating to the protests. But, the President is facing enormous political pressure on several fronts. You have Republicans who are trying to portray these college campuses as signs of disorder that are happening under President Biden's watch. Former President Donald Trump, his GOP opponent, has said that the President has been silent on this issue and needs to do more to address the protests that have been unfolding. And then there is the pressure within President Biden's own Democratic Party. You have seen real discontent amongst Democrats, especially young voters relating to his handling of the conflict between Israel and Hamas.
ANDERSON: OK, Arlette Let's just listen in to what U.S. President Joe Biden is saying here.
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We all see the images, and they put to the test two fundamental American principles. Excuse me. The first is the right to free speech and for people to peacefully assemble and make their voices heard. The second is the rule of law. Both must be upheld. We are not an authoritarian nation where we silence people or squash dissent. The American people are heard. In fact, peaceful protest is in the best tradition of how Americans respond to consequential issues. But, but, neither are we a lawless country. We're a civil society and order must prevail.
Throughout our history, we've often faced moments like this because we are a big, diverse, free-thinking and freedom-loving nation. In moments like this, there are always those who rush in to score political points. But, this isn't a moment for politics. It's a moment for clarity. So, let me be clear. Peaceful protest in America, violent protest is not protected. Peaceful protest is. It's against the law when violence occurs. Destroying property is not a peaceful protest. It's against the law. Vandalism, trespassing, breaking windows, shutting down campuses, forcing the cancellation of classes and graduations, none of this is a peaceful protest. Threatening people, intimidating people, instilling fear in people is not peaceful protest. It's against the law.
Dissent is essential to democracy, but dissent must never lead to disorder or to denying the rights of others so students can finish the semester and their college education.
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Look, it's basically a matter of fairness. It's a matter of what's right. There is the right to protest but not the right to cause chaos. People have the right to get an education, the right to get a degree, the right to walk across the campus safely without fear of being attacked. But, let's be clear about this as well. There should be no place in any campus, no place in America for antisemitism or threats of violence against Jewish students. There is no place for hate speech or violence of any kind, whether it's antisemitism, Islamophobia, or discrimination against Arab Americans or Palestinian Americans. It's simply wrong. There is no place for racism in America. It's all wrong. It's not American.
I understand people have strong feelings and deep convictions. In America, we respect the right and protect the right for them to express that. But, it doesn't mean anything goes. It needs to be done without violence, without destruction, without hate, and within the law. And I will make no mistake. As President, I will always defend free speech and I will always be just as strong and standing up for the rule of law. That's my responsibility to you, the American people. My obligation to the Constitution. Thank you very much.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, have the protests forced you to reconsider any of the policies with regard to the region?
BIDEN: No. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, do you think the National Guard should intervene?
BIDEN: No.
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ANDERSON: President Joe Biden speaking for the first time personally and in public about the protest movement sweeping U.S. campuses. He said there is no room for hate speech or racism in the United States.
Joining me now is CNN's Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst, John Miller. John, what did you make of what you just heard from the U.S. President?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, I think we saw two things. One, as we've seen the 48-hour period, Becky, that could be described as the university's strike back, retaking ground, retaking buildings, retaking campuses. We also saw a moment where the President of the United States thought we were at time where a message from the President, from the White House, was required to reset the boundaries about lawful, peaceful protest versus anarchy, property damage, violence and violations of the law.
Clearly, Joe Biden realized that this had not just become an issue for American colleges, but also a political issue for Joe Biden, as Donald Trump has started to harness these events and saying this is a symptom of a weak Joe Biden, as other Republicans have started to blast over these with the message that this is a byproduct of Democratic progressiveness where these things are let to go, let to go on, let to go on too long. So, I think that's what we're hearing from the President at the White House today, which is reset the parameters.
ANDERSON: This shouldn't necessarily be about the U.S. President and his election campaign, though, I mean, it's -- if there is a much wider story here. And universities have responded in different ways. We have seen the situation on Columbia University's campus and the NYPD coming in to get rid of protesters, and they say other individuals who weren't affiliated with the university, who are barricaded into a private building, I just wonder -- and that was what, some 36 hours, 48 hours ago.
John, I have to ask you, I wonder what you make of the use of force by the authorities on the UCLA campus, which was the encampment on which was deemed illegal, and it's difficult to sort of determine exactly why it was illegal. It's not clear as of yet what authorities -- what made authorities decide it was illegal. Were the protests there outside the law, as you might deem it?
MILLER: So, yes, and that is a decision that's made by the university. So, as a former Deputy Chief of the LAPD, under the California Penal Code, you have Section 602 and 647(e). One is that it is illegal to set up camp or campgrounds on private property without the owner's permission.
[11:15:00]
Clearly, the university had said you no longer have our permission to stay here and gave them that warning. And the other is just criminal trespass, meaning, you're on private property and using it for purposes other than its intended purpose, which is a college campus. So, when the university asked police to come in and say we, as the property owners, want these people removed, it went from being legal to illegal because the police gave them that warning in multiple ways. And those who said we are not looking to get arrested were able to walk off. And those who said we want to stand our ground and confront police stayed and did so.
Becky, when you talk about the violence, this was a group that had clashed with another group 24 hours before, a group that came from off-campus that attacked the pro-Palestinian demonstrators, and that fight went on for a long time. This was a clear sign that things were out of control, and that not having police on the campus were letting things go more out of control.
Tonight or last night, as the California Highway Patrol Special Operations Unit advanced on the lines of the protesters and their barricades, there were instances where fire extinguishers were fired into the faces of the CHP officers. We believe they responded with the rubber bullets from they call it the KEP rifle, the kinetic energy projectile, which is a rubber projectile that goes about 70 feet per second. It's not going to -- it's not likely to create serious injuries, but it is going to get your attention and be painful. And I think that was a response to the throwing of fireworks, fire extinguishers, water bottles and so on.
ANDERSON: You did mention the counter protests and the violence that was sparked by those who came onto the campus at UCLA to -- in a very violent way, very violent way against the peaceful demonstrators there. Did authorities, college authorities, do you think, do enough to protect those peaceful protesters at the time?
MILLER: So, it appears that university officials had been extraordinarily careful about having police on campus other than their UCLA Police Department, which is very small. It's about 90 people. Only 64 of them are actually police officers. They have an unarmed security force that augments that, but not enough to deal with a crowd of this size or this breadth or that was so fortified. That went on probably for about an hour and a half without police intervention. That, of course, was footage that was played around the world as those two sides clashed. That became an embarrassment to the Governor's Office in California, which ultimately is in control of state schools like UCLA.
And the orders came down very quickly that the college administration and the California Highway Patrol would have to come to an agreement and in a plan and execute that plan quickly and retake that territory, and try to resume some kind of normal university life on the grounds of UCLA.
ANDERSON: Thank you, John. John Miller in the house for you.
MILLER: Thanks.
ANDERSON: This is a complicated story to understand, in particular when it comes to characterizing the pro-Palestinian protesters. For example, when it comes to those arrested at Columbia and nearby City College of New York, it is worth noting that the NYPD told CNN, 134 people out of for 282 individuals who were arrested were not affiliated with either school. Though those numbers are slightly less, it has to be said then that which authorities had anticipated. There is now a sense of calm. The city's mayor claimed outside actors are trying to indoctrinate young people into violence. Also, you might see these scenes of calm, and assume things are over. That is not the picture across the United States. You can see this map showing arrests at campuses since April the 18th.
Now, my colleague Paula Newton is in New York at Trump's criminal hush money trial. It's a busy city today for a number of reasons, not least that which is going on inside that courthouse behind you, Paula.
NEWTON: Yeah, absolutely, Becky. I will note, though, that the former President did say going in, in terms of characterizing the protests, he called them radical left lunatics, and said that he had only praise for the police operations. But, what we're doing right now is taking the temperature inside the courthouse, as we hear more testimony from Keith Davidson, who is back on the stand right now.
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Now, he was, you'll remember, the attorney who negotiated both the Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal hush money agreements. Now, before testimony today, the judge held another hearing on whether Trump violated the gag order in this case. It comes on the heels of a separate ruling days ago when the judge found the former President in contempt and fined him a total of $9,000. Now, I will note once again on the left side of your screen, you can read for yourself these key updates from the trial. CNN reporters are inside the courtroom, keeping us right up to date on what's going on. Everything they see and hear will appear on that side panel right there.
And our Justice Correspondent Jessica Schneider has been following what's been going on this morning. Jessica, good to see you. Keith Davidson here, I mean, it is very interesting how detailed the testimony is, and the fact that the prosecution still seems at pains to really make a clear line between the former President and the so- called hush money payments.
JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. They're trying to draw in the President. But, it hasn't -- we haven't elicited that testimony right now. So, you're right, Paula. Stormy Daniels' lawyer Keith Davidson back on the stand. We last heard from him yesterday, where he was detailing how he also worked to broker a deal for Karen McDougal, who also claimed she had an affair with Trump.
This morning, we've heard a focus on the logistics of the Stormy Daniels deal. Davidson really detailed how he worked with the editor at the National Enquirer, Dylan Howard, also with Michael Cohen to broker this deal, so that Stormy Daniels would stay quiet about her alleged affair with Donald Trump. But you did mention, Paula, that we really haven't drawn in Donald Trump or any direct involvement just yet. And it's possible that Davidson doesn't even know about it. So, Davidson right now, he is really talking about the panic to get the Stormy Daniels quieted because of all the allegations that swirled around Trump's -- Trump in the days and weeks before the election.
He even talked about how Michael Cohen called him right after the election and was despondent that Donald Trump wasn't bringing him to Washington. After Trump won the presidency, Michael Cohen saying he had done so much for him. And now, what you're seeing is details about how Stormy Daniels story did get out into the press after the election and when Donald Trump was President and sort of the scramble all around that. So, it's likely that Davidson's testimony will go on for a while longer. And then, as a side note here, we had that gag order hearing this morning. It was actually quite interesting because Trump's attorneys were trying to say -- they're arguing that Trump has the right to respond to what they believe has been really a torrent of comments from Michael Cohen online.
So, they're arguing that Donald Trump had the right to respond since Michael Cohen has just been so outspoken. So, the judge now considering their arguments. The judge did seem more inclined to find that Trump had violated the gag order when he made comments about the jury makeup. That was where Trump spoke out, claiming that 95 percent of the jury was Democrat. The judge says that the utmost importance here is to safeguard this jury since they're the core to this proceeding. They need to be protected throughout this especially, Paula, since some have already expressed their concerns about their identities being exposed.
Now, the last time the judge ruled on the gag order was on Tuesday, and he took about a week to come up with his decision there, fining Trump $9,000 for these four alleged violations that were argued this morning. The prosecutors want Trump fined $1,000 each. So, if the judge found with them completely, it would be a $4,000 fine. So, we'll see. It could take a few more days for the judge to really come up with his decision.
But, in the meantime, we move forward with this testimony, Keith Davidson giving very detailed testimony about the Stormy Daniels deal and then the fallout especially once Trump took office, and Stormy Daniels, her story got out there. But, like you said, Paula, there hasn't been that direct link to Donald Trump himself. That's likely something that may be Michael Cohen is probably the only one who can do that. And prosecutors have to lay the foundation here with these other witnesses because Michael Cohen is a difficult witness because of his past being convicted of lying. Paula.
NEWTON: Yeah. Interesting as well. Michael Cohen is the subject of whether or not Donald Trump can defend himself even under a gag order because the President claims that Michael Cohen is quote, "a convicted liar". Jessica, thanks so much for summarizing what's gone on so far this morning. Really appreciate it.
We are joined by former federal prosecutor Michael Zeldin, the host of "That Said with Michael Zeldin" podcast. Really interesting to hear from you this morning regarding this witness Keith Davidson. I mean, right now, we actually have -- the question was put to Mr. Davidson, would you describe these payments as hush money, and he replied, I would never call them that. How difficult is it at this point if you're the jury to sit there intently and see this witness, hear what he is saying, go through the documents?
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Because as you and I have discussed before, this is about white collar crime. It is not about whether or not Donald Trump allegedly had a relationship with these women or even paid them to be quiet. It's about whether or not it was a campaign finance violation.
MICHAEL ZELDIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, & HOST, "THAT SAID WITH MICHAEL ZELDIN": That's exactly right. And Davidson is giving both defense and the prosecution something to argue. I think that it's reasonable for the prosecutor to say that all inferences should be drawn that these payments from Cohen to Stormy Daniels were at the behest of and with the consent of Donald Trump. On the other hand, I think that he has given enough wiggle room for the defense to argue, reasonable doubt. Was Cohen acting on his own, trying to be the good son to get a pat on the head, or was he doing it at the direction of Donald Trump? And so, this back and forth between the prosecutor and Davidson about
the minutia of this is so that each side can argue -- or actually their side can argue, reasonable inference, that this was Donald Trump who was orchestrating this. This was Donald Trump who was paying this. This was Donald Trump who was the beneficiary of this. And if you don't believe that, then you're mistaken. That's where they have to be now. And all the contracts and all the minutia is designed so that the prosecution can make that closing argument.
NEWTON: Now, can you tell me something, Michael, I mean, right now, we're seeing on our screens that Davidson is saying that he would not describe what Daniel -- the payment that Daniels -- Stormy Daniels received as hush money. Now, if you are the prosecution, you've clearly interviewed Mr. Davidson extensively. You assume that you're going to know more or less what he is going to say. How is this helping your case in any way at this point in time? Because from my ear right now, if I was a juror, I'd be thinking, what is this all about, because it's still not linking it to the President?
ZELDIN: That's right. Davidson is parsing words with the prosecutors. He is saying I don't consider this hush money, which has for him some negative connotation. He says it's consideration for a contract. That is, there was a contract to be entered into between Trump and Stormy Daniels. This was the consideration, the payment for her silence. So, they're mincing words. But, the bottom line of this is, this was an agreement to cause her to not reveal the story because the fear of it impacting the election.
So, I don't think that has negatively impacted the argument the defense -- the prosecution will make, but the jury may be lost in the weeds of all this woodsmanship (ph). It's not good for the prosecution. But, in the end, the prosecutor should be able to tie this all up together.
NEWTON: Yeah. And now we begin to understand why no one wanted this trial to be really caricatured as a hush money trial because they are trying to get to financial crimes and trying to get to the nitty- gritty of that. Michael Zeldin for us, thanks so much, as we continue to check in with you.
Still to come for us, as protests on U.S. campuses continue, officials in Gaza say two children were killed in an airstrike Tuesday in Rafah. We will have an update on the IDF response when we come back.
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ANDERSON: Well, just a few minutes ago, U.S. President Joe Biden was asked at the end of his remarks if he would change his policy on Israel amid campus protests against the war in Gaza, and President Biden said, no. It's important to take a step back and remember why these protests are happening. The demonstrators want to put pressure on colleges to divest from companies linked to Israel's bombardment of Gaza. Within Gaza itself, Palestinian Civil Defense and hospitals officials in Rafah say two children were killed in an Israeli airstrike at the Al-Shaboura refugee camp on Tuesday night.
CNN's Jeremy Diamond joins us now live from Jerusalem. Jeremy, you've been speaking to the IDF on another strike that you reported on a refugee camp, the Maghazi refugee camp. What did they told you?
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Becky, two weeks ago, we brought you this story of the Al-Maghazi refugee camp, a strike there that killed several children. There was a devastating image that we shared of the dead bodies of children splayed around a foosball table of which one of them was Shaheed (ph), a girl who was wearing pink pants, just impossible to miss in that horrendous scene. And over the course of the last two weeks, we have been following up on that report. We interviewed her mother to hear her devastation of losing her only child in that strike, her search for answers.
And we've also been pressing the Israeli military for answers about this strike. And we've gathered evidence at the scene as well. Our -- a stringer in Gaza, Mohammad Al-Sawalhi, he went to the scene of this attack. He documented the crater the marks of shrapnel, as well as pieces of shrapnel, including a circuit board that was recovered at the scene by Shaheed's uncle. We submitted all of that evidence to three munitions experts who independently reached the conclusion that this was the result of a precision-guided munition deployed by the Israeli military.
When we asked the Israeli military for comments on this, we gave them three days to respond. And all they could tell us was this, quote, "The strike in question was carried out at a different time than described in the query." And they also said that the collateral damage as described in the query is not known to the IDF. So, basically, their response is to say that we did not carry out a strike as far as what we can see in our records at the time and place that you are describing to us. And they also say that the strike they carried out on Al-Maghazi, at a different time, apparently, did not cause any casualties.
But, we have recovered metadata from two phones that took videos in the immediate aftermath of that attack, which is how we determined the timing that we provided to the IDF. And additionally, there is no record, according to journalists in Maghazi, of any other Israeli strike that day. So, the statement from the IDF frankly, Becky, just begs more answers than the questions that it may answer here, or begs more questions, rather, I should say.
And what we also didn't see from the IDF in the statement was a commitment to investigate this incident, although, even though it is undeniable that these children, now 11 children, have died as a result of this one strike. And again, munitions experts agreeing here that it was very likely caused by an Israeli airstrike. Becky.
ANDERSON: Jeremy Diamond is in Jerusalem. Jeremy, thank you.
It was a busy day in Donald Trump's hush money trial. Witness testimony back underway right now, after the judge held another gag order hearing to consider more alleged violations against the former President. We are live outside the Manhattan courthouse, coming up.
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[11:35:00]
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NEWTON: All right. We are in front of what is a New York landmark, and you are looking at a live shot of the New York courthouse this Thursday morning here in Lower Manhattan. And inside, there is plenty to tell you about. Happening right now, prosecutors are questioning a key witness, attorney Keith Davidson, who negotiated the hush money agreement for Stormy Daniels. Now, earlier the judge held another gag order hearing to consider for additional allegations against Trump. Prosecutors are asking for $1,000 maximum fine for each alleged violation. And they did indicate that they were not seeking jail time. The judge has not announced a decision and likely will consider what he heard in that hearing.
Jeff Swartz joins us now. He is a former Miami-Dade County Court judge, and a law professor. So, just in terms of the testimony that we're hearing now, we are getting into the art of the deal. You will pardon me for quoting that. But, we are looking at exactly the nature of the agreement that is alleged here, the agreement that went on between Michael Cohen and Mr. Davidson regarding Stormy Daniels. I'm interested to hear from you, when Mr. Davidson says that he wouldn't characterize this as hush money, how problematic is this for the prosecution when everybody assumes that hush money means you're trying to cover this up, you're trying to cover up the payment to Stormy Daniels so that she denies or does not speak about any relationship with Donald Trump?
JEFF SWARTZ, FORMER MIAMI-DADE COUNTY COURT JUDGE, & PROFESSOR, THOMAS M. COOLEY LAW SCHOOL: I don't think for Mr. Davidson right now that's really covering up what he did, because that's apparent. There is too many documents. There is too much testimony. What he is trying to do is put a, how can you put it, a lipstick on a sow's ear in a context that he wants to make his role in it sound better than it actually is.
So, he is talking about it in terms of that this was just a payment for the story, whatever it may be. It's not hush money. It's compensation. He is basically dancing around the fact, things like he accepted service, or sent service to Michael Cohen under the name of David Dennison, which was a pseudonym for the President of the United States, where he talks about his conversations with Cohen about not going to D.C. after the election, and that everything was done on behalf of Donald Trump. So, he is trying to make himself sound better than it is. But, a rose by any other name is still a rose, and hush payment by any other name is a hush payment.
NEWTON: Really interesting, Jeff, just to hear you spell that out. And now, when we get, though, to redirect, I will note that the court is now taking a small break. Now, eventually, Trump's defense team will get a chance to interview Mr. Davidson. What tack would you use? [11:40:00]
Because there were different issues here, especially when we're dealing with this relationship between Mr. Davidson and Mr. Cohen, which we can see in testimony was incredibly contentious.
SWARTZ: I think there will be extensive cross, but some of it will be just to get Davidson to repeat things that he said that hurt the prosecution's case. The most important part of this is that Mr. Davidson never dealt with Mr. Trump directly, that his only knowledge to Mr. Trump had any knowledge of this or was involved in any way, through Michael Cohen. And that's meant to present a picture that Michael Cohen may have been acting on his own. I think that they also will try to push the idea that it was Michael Cohen who was panicking to try to get this done. He did not see any other kind of panic coming from anyone else, certainly not from the National Enquirer editor who was involved in all of this.
So, that's what they're going to try to push for, that this was all Michael Cohen. Michael Cohen was stalling because he didn't want to pour out his own money. Why? Because it was his own money. It wasn't Donald Trump's money. And I think that that's what they're going to try to push the buttons on. So, there could be very extensive cross just to reiterate what he said on direct that helped the defense case.
NEWTON: Yeah. We will wait to see if they get to that at some point this afternoon. Jeff Swartz for us, thanks so much. Really appreciate it.
Next for us, Becky is back, and we'll give you an update on those confrontations gripping university campuses right across the United States. Stay with us.
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ANDERSON: Welcome back. Well, authorities at UCLA say they have cleared the encampment in the past couple of hours, the protest encampment, and have made more than 130 arrests. We understand that officers fired what appeared to be rubber bullets as they moved in.
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But, the situation remains tense, some protestors vowing to push on until key demands are met, including U.S. divestment from companies that provide arms to Israel.
We want to bring in UCLA Assistant History Professor Milos Jovanovic. He has been on campus supporting these protests. Thank you for joining us. Firstly, your assessment of what happened overnight and the use of force to clear the encampment and the arrests of so many students.
MILOS JOVANOVIC, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR, UCLA HISTORY DEPT.: Yes. I mean, it's really outrageous what took place. We see a complete abdication of university responsibility for the safety of our students, some of whom who've been injured by less lethal ammunition, you mentioned rubber bullets. [11:45:00]
I also want to highlight the use of physical force pushing as well as flashbang grenades to clear a peaceful, non-violent protest that was committed to de-escalations. And I want to highlight, though, that this also comes in the aftermath of the night before, where I was also present to monitor the situation. Many of us -- our faculty have been there out of concern for our students the night before by ad hoc violent mob of white supremacists, Proud Boys and some extremely radical Zionists brutalize students. I witnessed attacks by fireworks that caused chemical burns on the peaceful protesters' bodies. Five were taken to the hospital.
Many of us believe that last night's attack where the university administration completely retreated from providing safety to the students was indeed a pretext for clearing the campus today. There are many faculty members that are in jail at the moment as well as --
ANDERSON: Let me just put it -- Professor Milos, we've just heard from -- I've heard what you've said. We've just heard from the U.S. President Joe Biden in his first open remarks about what is going on. And in what were fairly strong and direct remarks, I have to say, he said that some of these protests have not been peaceful. They had disrupted classes and upcoming graduation ceremonies, and vandalizing, trespassing and occupying campus buildings wasn't considered free speech. He said violent protests in America is not protected. Peaceful protest is, he said.
Do you disagree with what the U.S. President said? And perhaps his comments were, of course, and let me caveat this, his comments were wider than just observations of what happened at UCLA.
JOVANOVIC: I mean, I can't speak to what happened elsewhere. I can speak to what happened at UCLA. What I witnessed, I was at the encampment yesterday, was a large commitment by the students towards non-violence and de-escalation. Students checked university IDs to make sure that only university members were there, and that's partly in response to the attack by outsiders that took place. The encampment itself was mostly peaceful.
And I would like to highlight the wide diversity of students that were there, some of Palestinian descent, Muslim students, but also beyond members of the Latinx community, Jewish students who hosted Seder at the encampment. Characterizing these as violent is a gross mischaracterization, I would say, at least in the context of UCLA.
ANDERSON: Yeah. We've interviewed many of those young protesters here on this show. It's good to have you, sir, and to get your perspective. Thank you. Professor Milos Jovanovic with us on the show.
Meanwhile, in Texas, at least 17 people have been arrested for trespassing at the University of Texas, Dallas campus. Those arrests were made on Wednesday night. School officials say the protesters formed encampments. Earlier in the day, they were given written notice to move the tents and structures but the request was refused. It's not known if any of those arrested were students. Well, joining us now is Elijah Kahlenberg. He is a student at the
University of Texas at Austin, and the President of Atidna International. That's a nonprofit group to create safe places on colleges for conversations between Jews and Arabs. And Elijah, do you believe that those safe places have been during this weeks-long protest movement on the campus that you've been on and elsewhere? Have you been able to create those safe spaces? I mean, do you genuinely believe that that is being achieved on the whole?
ELIJAH KAHLENBERG, STUDENT, UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS AT AUSTIN, & PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, ATIDNA INTERNATIONAL: Yeah. So, the work of Atidna International has continued even after protests began. At UT's campus, a peaceful sit-in was organized by the Palestine Solidarity Committee last Wednesday. It was not an encampment, but it was a peaceful sit- in. And the day after, Atidna International actually hosted a dialogue session between protesters and between others who may have been wary of the protests, specifically many Zionist Jewish students.
But overall, Atidna has continued the work of fostering dialogue between Jewish, Arab, Palestinian and Israeli students. We've also continued our efforts with peacebuilding to bring together both our communities during such a tense time.
[11:50:00]
ANDERSON: At Brown University, at least, the administration has agreed to hold a vote later this year on divestment. Elijah, these protests have been based on support for Palestinians in Gaza and demonstrating against the assault on Gaza. Joe Biden has just said that campus unrest hasn't changed his mind on Israeli policy for what it's worth. These protests have also been calling for divestment, of course. Given what we've witnessed over the past 48 hours or so in the clearing of the UCLA campus by police, same in Wisconsin, same in Columbia, do you expect these -- this protest movement to continue, perhaps speaking very much to your personal experience where you are?
KAHLENBERG: For sure. I do believe that the protest movement will continue to grow. As you mentioned, the primary objective of most protesters is divestment. There are corporations like Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, and others who have relationships with universities that many students find to be an ethical and moral violation. And the dominance of these universities are going towards those corporations. And what's happening is, on many of these college campuses, these peaceful protests are occurring, but they're being suppressed.
At UT Austin, before our protests even began, the governor, Greg Abbott, decided to send in state troopers to suppress the peaceful protest. It was supposed to be a sit-in on the UT lawn. But, when fellow students saw such suppression on campus, they might not have known that much about Gaza or Palestine, but they decided to join in on these protests because they saw the civil liberties of their fellow students being suppressed. And so, because we see such crackdowns, many more students who might otherwise not be the most knowledgeable on what's occurring on the ground in Israel and Palestine will join in, and that, I think, will be the spark that allows these protests to grow bigger than anyone would have ever imagined. ANDERSON: Do you -- yeah. And Elijah, just very briefly, do you concede that there are also or there seems to be evidence that there have been people whose intentions are not in support of Gaza, whose intentions in their presence on these campuses maybe malign?
KAHLENBERG: There might be individual actors. I do concede. But, overall, I think the movement as a whole has been pretty clear that their efforts are simply for divestment. As a Jewish student, I was also a participants in protests here at UT Austin. And for the most parts, most actors, I think, were chanting that cause on the question of antisemitism. I myself have not been subjected to any forms of antisemitism during the protests. If anything, I've only seen support and love from my Palestinian brothers and sisters, because we're coming together in unity for a very noble cause.
But, there might be individual actors from outside of campus who are coming in, who are not there necessarily, even for Palestinians who might want to wreak havoc, but those are individuals that does not reflect the wider movement.
ANDERSON: Elijah, good to have you. Thank you very much indeed for your time.
Taking a very short break. Back after this.
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ANDERSON: All right. Just time before we go to bring you this. It's a royal happy birthday for Britain's Princess Charlotte, who turns nine today. Her parents, the Prince and Princess of Wales, released this new photo to mark the occasion, keeping up with their annual tradition of sharing portraits of their kids on their birthdays. So, she is third in line to the throne. Her mother once described Charlotte as, quote, "the one in charge." Well, the family is remaining largely out of the public eye as Catherine undergoes treatment for cancer.
Well, thank you for being with us here on CNN Newsroom. I'm Becky Anderson. Stay with CNN. One World is up next.
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