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U.S. Pauses Ammunition Shipment To Israel; Hamas Delegation Leaves Cairo As Latest Round Of Negotiations Ends; Interview With Representative Josh Gottheimer (D-NJ) About Ammunition Shipment To Israel; Former Trump Aide Hope Hicks Testifies In Trump's Hush Money Trial; 5-Year-Old Dies After Being Swept Away In Texas Floodwaters; Campaign Heats Up With Six Months To Go Until Election Day; Tehran's Efforts To Work Around U.S.-Led Sanctions. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired May 05, 2024 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:43]

JESSICA DEAN, CNN ANCHOR: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. Hi, everyone. I'm Jessica Dean in Washington, and we begin with breaking news.

CNN has learned the Biden administration has paused a shipment of U.S.-made ammunition to Israel. It appears to be the first time the U.S. has stopped a weapons shipment to the Israeli military since the October 7th Hamas attacks. And it comes amid growing tensions between the U.S. and Israel over the war in Gaza.

Tonight, we're also following the fallout from the high-stakes negotiations in Cairo over a potential hostage and ceasefire deal.

CNN's Priscilla Alvarez is here with us right now.

And Priscilla, what more are you learning about this ammunition that has been held?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I talked to a source familiar with this decision and they could not disclose any details as to how this decision was made. But here's what we do know. It is not linked to a potential Israeli ground invasion of Rafah in southern Gaza Strip were more than a million Palestinians have been displaced and are sheltering. And that has been a top concern for the White House. So this not linked to that.

Second thing, it is not affecting other shipments. This is one shipment that was paused. We don't know exactly why. That's unclear. But other shipments and military security assistance continues to Israel. To that end, the National Security Council spokesperson told me the following, quote, "The United States has surged billions of dollars in security assistance to Israel since the October 7th attacks, passed the largest ever supplemental appropriation for emergency assistance to Israel, led an unprecedented coalition to defend Israel against Iranian attacks, and will continue to do what is necessary to ensure Israel can defend itself from the threats it faces."

So just from that statement alone, you can tell U.S. is maintaining its policy here. U.S. officials have done so. This does not signal any type of change in policy toward Israel. We should also note because it has mentioned here in the statement that supplemental appropriation, that was $26 billion for the Israel-Hamas conflict. That was part of the supplemental package that Congress passed and that the president signed.

But the takeaway here is we're still learning or trying to learn why this shipment was paused, but U.S. officials maintaining that there is no change in policy here toward Israel.

DEAN: Even though it's the first time since the October 7th attacks, so we have to hold all of that together and see what develops from that.

I also want to ask you about but these talks that are going on in Cairo. The Biden administration of course working very hard to try to land this plane, to get a deal that would have a temporary ceasefire and a hostage deal. Where do things stand?

ALVAREZ: And they're dispatching one of their key officials to do just that. CIA director Bill Burns was in the region over the weekend. He has been key in these multiparty talks and include Israel, Hamas, Egypt, and Qatar. And so these conversations are ongoing. When he has been dispatched in the past, it's usually during the quite intensive phase of the negotiations. We know that it has been intense over the last few days.

In fact, President Biden speaking with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu last weekend over this exact topic. In fact, the majority of their call was on the hostage deal. So all of this is fluid and to your point, this has been ongoing and it's unclear when the deal will be reached. If it's reached, all U.S. officials have kept this front of mind. It is a priority to them, especially when you talk to those in the White House. But they don't know when it will -- when the plane will land until it does. So all of that still very much ongoing and the CIA director staying in the region tomorrow.

DEAN: Yes. Worth noting there as well. All right. Priscilla Alvarez, with the latest reporting on that. Thank you very much.

And joining us now is Democratic congressman from New Jersey, Josh Gottheimer.

Congressman, thanks so much for making time today. We appreciate it. I want to just first get --

REP. JOSH GOTTHEIMER (D-NJ): Thanks for having me, Jessica.

DEAN: Yes. I just first want to get your reaction from the reporting that Priscilla was just walking us through about this paused ammunition shipment. What's your reaction to that?

GOTTHEIMER: Well, I've called and reached out and asked for a classified briefing tomorrow but I'm hearing what you're hearing which is no one is confirming this report. And so, as for now, as far as I'm concerned, there is nothing tied to any pause in delivery of any weapons of any kind right now. And the position of this White House, of course, toward our key ally has not changed.

DEAN: And if it turns out -- we had Lieutenant General Mark Hertling on last hour and he suggested that this could be a message, that it was maybe even more than a slow walk.

[18:05:03]

Of course, we're still learning information, but that was just his assessment based on his experience. If that did indeed turn out to be true, would you support any sort of pause and ammunition shipments?

GOTTHEIMER: Well, listen, I'm not going to comment on something that I don't believe is true and if I get more information, (INAUDIBLE) back. I think what we know to be true today is that Hamas fired rockets at Israeli soldiers at the crossings delivering humanitarian aid. We know that 40 rockets were shipped that were fired from Hezbollah and the north at Israel. We know that Israeli soldiers were killed today and we know that Hamas has walked away once again from talks.

And so Hamas continues to have Americans and others as hostages, including one of my constituents, Edan Alexander. We know that Hezbollah continues to fire rockets from Hamas, from Gaza into Israel, and we know that other Iranian proxies continue to fire rockets and attack Americans, as well as our allies. So none of those facts have changed and that's what I'm focused on.

How do we make sure we get the hostages freed? How do we continue to surge humanitarian aid and actually get it delivered into the region without Hamas blocking that humanitarian aid getting to people who need it? And making sure that we do everything we can to crush Hamas. Well, of course, until Hamas surrenders.

DEAN: Let's talk a little bit about these pro-Palestinian protests that we've seen at college campuses all across the country. And we continue to see them unfolding in different iterations day after day.

I'm curious where you see the line when it comes to protected free speech and peaceful protests, and then gatherings that require law enforcement? Where is the line for you?

GOTTHEIMER: It's a great and important question. I mean, I think, as I have said this last week, as my bipartisan bill helping define antisemitism so we can understand where exactly -- help colleges understand where the line is for themselves on antisemitism and discrimination.

My line is about the safety of students. All students from any religion or background, and making sure that everyone is safe, that they can go to graduation, they can go to class, that they could study. And of course, not be threatened by people screaming, kill Zionists, or other pro-Hamas rallying cries.

And, you know, I think we have to make sure we're very clear that we all want that -- speaking out is a key right in our country and one that I support, and so is protesting, but protesting in a safe way as the president talked about last week, and making sure that when if you're going to call out to support Hamas, which is a foreign terrorist organization, which continues to threaten Americans and has Americans hostage that you understand what you're shouting about and who you're supporting.

And that's part of what concerns me. I don't think people -- that students understand that they are actually supporting, as they scream out rallying cries for Hamas, that they're actually supporting a terrorist organization that is using innocent Palestinians as human shields. And, you know, I think we want to do everything we can to help innocent Palestinians in Gaza. And Hamas is seeking -- continues to use these innocent Palestinians literally as human shields, and as they continue to try to do everything they can to hurt America, to weaken our position in the world. I mean, Hamas hates America as we ought to remember more than they hate Israel. They hate the West and let's not lose sight of that.

DEAN: You know, it's interesting you bring that up because we had Van Jones on in the last hour and he said that he believed it fell to President Biden, that he should be explaining to these young people what Hamas is about, what the Houthis are about, what the Islamic Republic of Iran is about, and helping them understand what all of this is and what they stand for.

Do you think that falls to President Biden? And if so, do you think he's done a good enough job?

GOTTHEIMER: Well, the president is going to give a very important speech this coming week and I think he will talk about that. And of course, he made very important statements last week. He said there's no place in America and no place on any campus for antisemitism or threats of violence against Jewish students. Right. He said violent protest is not protected, peaceful protest is. I think talking about those messages as the president did is very important.

But I also think we need to make sure we explain, I think the president will do that, that Hamas and other Iranian-backed proxies like Hezbollah, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, the Houthis in the Red Sea, they all continue to attack America, attack our service members, our ships. And again, they've made it pretty clear that they hate us more than they hate Israel. They hate the West and that's what I'm continuing to be very concerned about.

I want Americans to understand this is not just about the fact that Hamas has Americans hostage and killed 40 Americans on October 7th, and continues to, of course, attack are key ally, but that they equally or more hate the United States of America.

[18:10:08]

DEAN: And before we let you go, I'm just curious if you've talked to the president in the lead up to the speech. You mentioned he's giving a speech -- he's giving a speech on antisemitism for National Holocaust Remembrance Day that's coming up in a couple of days.

Have you spoken with him about things you want to hear? Have you given him any of your thoughts? I know you've been very outspoken in this issue.

GOTTHEIMER: I've been in regular touch with the White House and talked to the White House about my thoughts and what I think is really important to address. And we looked through everything we can not to embolden Hamas in these moments. We see that they've made it pretty clear that they're not actually interested in being serious at these negotiations, as they continue to try to change the deal and walk away from the table.

As the Israelis have made it clear they're willing to sit at the table working very closely with Director Burns from the CIA and others on our side, we've got to figure out a way to get this pause by getting the hostages freed and especially the Americans. Well, you know, time is not on our side on that, and we've got to do everything we can to get that accomplished as quickly as possible, and of course to stop all of these threats in the region.

DEAN: All right, Congressman Josh Gottheimer, thanks again for stopping by. We appreciate it.

GOTTHEIMER: Thanks for having me.

DEAN: Days of record-breaking rain in Texas and the urgent threat of dangerous flooding remains as rivers are pushed far beyond their limits. Plus former president Trump's criminal hush money trial gets back underway tomorrow. The major players we're still waiting to see take the stand.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:16:18]

DEAN: Tomorrow Donald Trump is set to return to New York for the third week of witness testimony in his hush money criminal trial. The former presidents saw one of his top and most trusted former aides, Hope Hicks, broke down in tears during an emotional day of testimony Friday.

Trump is accused of falsifying business records to cover up a hush money payment made to adult film star Stormy Daniels before the 2016 presidential election. Daniels herself could still be called as a witness in this case.

CNN's Zachary Cohen joining us now in the studio.

Zach, Friday was pretty dramatic. Walk us through these most -- the prominent moments, the takeaways from that testimony.

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jessica, Hope Hicks didn't have direct knowledge of any payment or repayments related to this hush money, you know, that's really at the center of this trial, but she did set the scene for future witnesses who can provide those details to the jury, and really prosecutors wanted Hicks to, you know, emphasize this point that these payments and the repayment of Michael Cohen was part of a broader election-related conspiracy and a criminal one that Trump and his allies tried to suppress the story with Stormy Daniels, from getting out before the 2016 election because they thought it would hurt his chances of getting elected.

And specifically, they tried to do that by linking it to the "Access Hollywood" tape, right? We all remember when that leaked, and Hope described what the chaos and she called it a crisis in the aftermath of that leak. She said yes, she was concerned that that leak could in Trump's presidential bid at the time. And so that sort of set the scene for future witnesses who will then talk about how this effort to suppress Stormy Daniels' story and the concern at the time in Trump's camp about the Stormy Daniels story coming out.

Now Hope Hicks also was asked about this 2018 interaction that she had with Donald Trump. It was in 2018 when these stories about the payment to Stormy Daniels first started to come out and she says that she didn't believe Michael Cohen and Trump at the time, when they said that Cohen essentially paid Stormy Daniels on his own volition and that Trump didn't have anything to do with it.

She also talked about how that Trump emphasized or heard that he was glad that the story came out in 2018 when he was already in the White House and not before the 2016 election. There was a part of her testimony where she said, I think Mr. Trump's opinion was it was better to be dealing with it now and that it would have been bad to have that story come out before the elections, sort of speaking to Trump's potential motivation.

Now, we'll see who they call next when court resumes on Monday, but Hope Hicks was setting the scene here for prosecutors to move into the alleged crimes part of this trial.

DEAN: And who else could we potentially hear from? It's a list that people will know.

COHEN: Theres a lot of boldfaced names, including Stormy Daniels, who obviously is the adult actress at the center of this hush money payment allegation, and then Michael Cohen, who's maybe the most explosive, potentially, witness that we haven't heard from yet. And prosecutors have been trying to set the narrative in the minds of the jurors since the very beginning that Michael Cohen is a problematic witness.

He is somebody who's lied. He's somebody that the defense attorneys are going to try to dirty up as much as they possibly can. But at the end of the day, they want the jury to be able to hear Michael Cohen and separate what he's saying under oath from what maybe defense attorneys have brought up in the time since he was announced to be a key witness.

DEAN: All right. We shall see because they are not releasing who they're calling because they're afraid of what the former president will do to those -- say about those people.

Zachary Cohen, we know you'll be watching. Thanks so much. And joining me now, former deputy assistant attorney general, Tom

Dupree, and CNN legal analyst and former White House ethics czar Norm Eisen. Norm investigated Trump as counsel for the House Judiciary Committee in the first impeachment trial of Donald Trump and litigated cases involving him. Previously, he's also the editor of the book, "Trying Trump: A Guide to His First Election Interference Criminal Trial."

Great to have you both.

Norm, let's start first with you. You have been in the courtroom for this trial, which has been probably quite interesting. You described it as there being electricity surging through the courtroom when Hope Hicks was testifying on Friday.

[18:20:05]

Do you consider her the most compelling witness so far?

NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: She was perhaps the most dramatic, Jessica, but in some ways, the most compelling witness so far was David Pecker, the former publisher of the "National Enquirer," because Pecker took us inside the most important issue for this case. Trump's intent. Did he have the intent to commit another crime and then to cover it up with these 34 allegedly false documents, and Pecker said he and Michael Cohen and Trump agreed at a 2015 meeting at Trump Tower that that was what they would do.

They would benefit the campaign through these secret payments. If that's true, that's a campaign and election conspiracy, which is half of the prosecutors' case. So Pecker and Hicks both extremely important.

DEAN: And Tom, part of Hicks' testimony focused on how Trump was more worried about how his wife, Melania, would perceive this "Wall Street Journal" story about his alleged affair with Stormy Daniels. And she testified, quote, "He wanted me to make sure that the newspapers weren't delivered to his residence that morning."

Do you think that she threw the defense a lifeline here that they're going to argue and have been arguing, look, he was just trying to defend himself personally at home with his wife?

TOM DUPREE, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Absolutely. I think there's no doubt that when it comes time for closing arguments, the defense team is going to circle back to her testimony on exactly that point. To be fair, she did talk a lot about this mixed motive that obviously President Trump, candidate Trump, was concerned. What would happen politically if the Stormy Daniels story broke before the election.

But to your point, she also testified that Trump was worried about what his wife would think and went so far in kind of a quaint effort to conceal the knowledge from her by preventing the newspapers from being delivered to their apartment in Trump Tower. I suspect the defense was writing furiously as she was testifying, and that we are going to see that theme recur throughout this trial, including in the closing, when they say that Trump was acting not so much to protect his election interests, but rather to keep all of this sort of business from his wife.

DEAN: What do you think, Norm? I saw you nodding your head while Tom was talking.

EISEN: As a matter of law, if the prosecution can show that Trump had a mixed motive, but he would not have made these payments but for the campaign, legally the judge is going to instruct the jury that's enough to establish the intent to commit a crime, then you have the phony documents, you have the cover-up, guilty if you find beyond a reasonable doubt.

Now, the other evidence that the prosecution wants also came in through Hicks because she also testified that Trump, she did not believe some of what Donald Trump told her and that he made some admissions like, isn't it better that this came in now after the campaign than during the campaign? So there was ammunition for both sides, but that's the controlling legal issue, Jessica.

DEAN: And Tom, Trump's defense attorney tried to get Hicks to show that Michael Cohen acted on his own, that he wasn't part of the campaign. Do you think that was effective, that it worked for Trump's team?

DUPREE: You know, if they want to press that argument for the jury, I think they're going to need a little bit more. They clearly were angling for that road. I don't think Hope Hicks quite gave them what they were hoping to get. In fact, at one point, she said she found it very doubtful that Michael Cohen would act for purely charitable motives, that that just wasn't his nature. So I think the defense team will continue pounding on that theme, but if they want the jury to agree with that line of argument, I think they're going to have to get more.

Look, Hope Hicks' testimony on balance I think had something for both sides. From the defense perspective, they're going to try to find these little things to plant seeds of reasonable doubt with the jury. But on that that particular point about, well, you know, she was only doing this or he was only doing this for different purposes, I think they're going to need a little more than what Hope Hicks gave them.

DEAN: And Norm, we heard Zach kind of walking us through what the prosecution has been doing in preparing the jury for Michael Cohen, who really sits at the center of this case in so many ways. How do you think they're going to continue to do that? And do you think it'll work if you keep saying to the jury, listen, we know he has a lot of knocks against him, but, you know, we still feel like you need to hear from him?

EISEN: Well, I lived through that because when I was hired by the House of Representatives to do the impeachment, the first impeachment of Donald Trump, Michael Cohen was the first witness I talked to. I took the train to New York. I expected one thing, but I'll tell you, Jessica, what I got from Cohen was something very different. Yes. He's had a very checkered history when he was associated with Donald Trump.

I found him to be very persuasive that he broke with Trump, that he's attempting to do the right thing.

[18:25:07]

He's colorful to be sure. But this is a very New York jury. We were talking on the break, one of the great things about being in court, of course I've been going to court for over three decades, usually trying the case, not watching them, is watching that jury. It's a real group of New Yorkers. I think -- like before a political debate where they tried to lower expectations, prosecutions lowering expectations, Michael Cohen is very likely going to exceed them and I think he will present well to this jury. But boy, it's going be a tough cross- examination for the ages.

DEAN: Yes. For sure, for sure, and it's always about, right, expectations of people.

Tom, I want to ask you about one of Trump's other cases. Tonight Nathan Wade, the former special prosecutor in Georgia's election interference case against Trump and others, just talked about how he resigned from that case after the scrutiny over his romantic relationship with the district attorney, Fani Willis. I want to play a clip of what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NATHAN WADE, FORMER FULTON COUNTY SPECIAL PROSECUTOR: Workplace romances are as American as apple pie. It happens to everyone. But it happened to the two of us. I regret that that private matter became the focal point of this very important prosecution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: Tom, should he be surprised that something like that became the focal point when they're going after the former president who's known for trying to delay and get at anything he can pull, anything string he can to get out of prosecution? What do you make of Nathan Wade's comments right there?

DUPREE: Absolutely. He should have realized something like this would happen. Look, this was an egregious self-inflicted error by Mr. Wade, by Fani Willis. To me, it is absolutely incomprehensible. They thought that somehow this would be perceived by the American public, as he said, American as apple pie.

Absolutely not. Prosecutors have a high responsibility to avoid the appearance of impropriety and what happened here was just an egregious error of judgment on behalf of the Georgia prosecutors. And I don't think Mr. Wade or Miss Willis have anyone to blame in this whole sorry episode other than themselves.

DEAN: All right. Norm, quickly, reaction to that?

EISEN: I agree with Tom. It was not smart. Wade had to go. That was clear from the start. There's nothing all American about having these kinds of workplace relationships.

DEAN: All right, Norm Eisen and Tom Dupree, I appreciate both of you. Thanks so much.

DUPREE: Thank you.

DEAN: Hundreds of people are being rescued from Texas neighborhoods as days of rain drenched parts of the state putting millions under flood watches. We'll take you there.

You're in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:32:22]

DEAN: Ten evacuation orders remain in place in parts of southeast Texas as flood ravaged communities tried to recover from days of relentless rain. Rescuers are out on air boats and other vehicles attempting to reach not only people unwilling or afraid to leave their homes, but also pets who might be stuck inside dangerous floodwaters.

CNN's Rosa Flores is on the ground in Harris County, Texas.

Rosa, there are now reports these floods have claimed a life. What are you learning about that?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is just devastating news, Jessica. Our assignment editor Melissa Alonso has been working the phones to confirm the death of a 5-year-old in Johnson County. That is just southwest of Dallas. And indeed, officials there telling our national desk that a 5-year-old indeed has died. And they say that a 911 call came in at about 2:00 a.m. this morning local time about two adults and a boy that were in a car stuck and that the water was rising and that they needed help.

And this official telling our national desk, quote, "The caller witnessed the occupants get out of the vehicle and attempt to get to dry ground on foot when all were swept into the floodwaters." Now the adults were rescued at 5:00 a.m. The boy's body was recovered after 7:00 a.m. this morning. Again devastating news. And if you look behind me, you can see that people are taking these risks.

They're going through these rising waters either to get to their homes or to get to areas and taking a giant risk. This couple that you're looking at right now, the woman told us yesterday, I believe we were on your show, Jessica, she wanted to go get medication and yesterday the water was so high she walked along this street and then walked back. And today, she says that she was actually able to get to her house and get her medication.

I know that because I talked to her by phone after she walked through the flooded waters. I was calling her to check in on her to make sure that she was fine. She answered the phone and she's waving down. Her name is Donna Sinclair. She told me that she was able to get to her medication and now she's walking back. But there are just so many dangers associated with the rising waters.

And we've talked to first responders who just tell people do not take the risk. We actually hopped on a boat with the Harris County Sheriff's Office today as they were going and assessing the situation in the area that you see behind me and we just saw a tremendous amount of water.

[18:35:11]

A lot of risks you just don't know what is in that water. And the first responders told us that they rescued multiple people from that area including a live rescue. And we have video of this. A live rescue that we aired here on CNN, on this show yesterday. It was a woman who was visibly shaken and the first responders told us that it was difficult to rescue her and that she wanted to be rescued and left on this street because their family was waiting for her.

And I actually talked to her afterwards and she told me that indeed her family was waiting for her. We saw her drive away, but here are the challenges as the first responders described it. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEP. DARRELL BALLEY, HARRIS COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE: I supposed the water was higher yesterday. If you look at the bottom of the RVs, the water was actually above the tire yesterday. So primarily people are walking with water to their waists so in trying to encourage people to come out, was I did was our most difficult task.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES: And Jessica, again, just about the risks, a 5-year-old boy has died swept away by the rising waters closer to Dallas, not exactly here where I am, but this is a multi-county weather event that now has turned deadly.

Jessica, back to you.

DEAN: So sorry to hear that news. Just devastating.

Rosa Flores for us in Harris County, Texas, thanks so much for that reporting.

We're back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:41:08]

DEAN: In the same week President Trump refused to commit to accepting the results of the 2024 election, he's now saying this about his opponent, President Joe Biden, quote, "They are running a Gestapo administration and it's the only thing they have and it's the only way they're going to win, in their opinion."

Joining us now former chief of staff to the Department of Homeland Security under President Trump, Miles Taylor, who's also the author of "Blowback: A Warning to Save Democracy from Trump's Revenge." It just came out in paperback. And Ruth Ben-Ghiat, professor of history at New York University, who wrote the book "Strongmen: Mussolini to the Present."

Ruth, let's just start with you. What do you think of Trump's recent comments that are calling the Biden administration the Gestapo?

RUTH BEN-GHIAT, HISTORY PROFESSOR, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: So this is straight out of the authoritarian playbook because one of the oldest talking points to authoritarianism from Mussolini onward is that democracy is the real tyranny. And when Trump, you know, calls the Biden administration as something similar to the Nazis and talks about the Gestapo persecuting him, he's activating that talking point.

It also plays into the strongman cult of victimhood, which Mussolini and others had as well. And so it makes him and all those who, for example, participated in January 6th, who are now -- he calls them political prisoners. And so Marjorie Taylor Greene often talks about the Biden regime. So this is part of this attempt to depict democracy as tyranny and of Trump's Trumpism as freedom.

DEAN: And Miles, we're now six months out from election day. In an interview this week, as we mentioned, Trump would not commit to accepting the 2024 election results. And I want us to listen how a potential vice presidential candidate, Senator Tim Scott, responded when he was pressed on the same issue today. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTEN WELKER, NBC NEWS' MEET THE PRESS: You voted to certify the election results of 2020. It's the exact opposite of what you said and did after 2020. Why would you want to be on a ticket with someone where there's such a fundamental difference?

SEN. TIM SCOTT (R-SC): This is an issue that is not an issue. So I'm not going to make it an issue.

WELKER: Well, Senator, will you commit to accepting the election results of 2024 bottom line?

SCOTT: At the end of the day the 47th president of the United States will be President Donald Trump. And I'm excited to get back to low inflation, low unemployment, and --

WELKER: Wait, wait. Senator, yes or no, yes or no, will you accept the election results of 2024, no matter who wins?

SCOTT: That is my statement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: Miles, these -- people have a hard time answering what should not be a difficult question, which is, will you accept legitimate election results if you win or you don't win, will you accept them. But apparently it's become a litmus test for the Republican Party and anyone that wants to be Trump's VP.

MILES TAYLOR, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Well, the hesitation, the faltering in his voice, it's an audition. He's auditioning and he was thrown a question by the casting directors that he didn't expect, and I think this is something that that is sending a very chilling signal because I'm going to compare it to the last time this happened four years ago, and six months before the election, Donald Trump was doing the same thing.

He was signaling that he might not accept the election results of 2020 but what you didn't hear in that time period is Republican members of Congress lining up behind him, largely you heard reassurance from Republican members of Congress about how it would be a free and fair election. And there would be a transfer of power regardless. And they mostly dismissed these claims that Donald Trump would try to hold on to power, and they did that right up until the last minute.

[18:45:05]

This time is very different because they know what Donald Trump is capable of, and they don't want to get on the wrong side of him because they want to be on his side. They want to be next to him on that ticket. So I've just got to say I'm very personally disappointed in some of these members of Congress who I've known, like Tim Scott and Elise Stefanik, and others who are hewing to this line to get close to Trump.

It's taken something that we thought was a threat to democracy from one man. And it's extrapolated it through the upper ranks of the entire party.

DEAN: Ruth, what does it say to you? Is there a chilling effect that happens throughout democracy, throughout our democracy, the faith and democracy? It is -- when I was traveling around for the 2024 primary, you talk to people and they absolutely believe that the election was stolen even though there is no evidence of that happening, even though that absolutely did not happen. Joe Biden was rightfully elected president. That is just the fact. But what do these types of things do to a democracy?

BEN-GHIAT: Well, it's absolutely devastating and actually, you know, Trump has pulled off something that I as a scholar of authoritarianism I've never seen. He has gotten tens of millions of people to believe that, you know, he won the election. It's easily verifiable that he didn't. And he did it working in a pluralistic media environment in a democracy. And one of the reasons is the GOP and everything is about loyalty performances.

And that's what Miles was describing. But it has a chilling effect and so all of the people who want to be, you know, vice president, for example, they have to constantly compete against each other to be the most loyal. And in dictator world, this is called divide and rule. You pit people against each other, make them compete to be the most loyal, and right now, the talking point is, will you, you know, accept the results of the election, and they cannot answer. They cannot say they will because that will boot them out. So this

kind of loyalty is actually very devastating to all of our institutions of democracy, including the idea of free and fair elections.

DEAN: Miles, just before you go, we got another example of how Trump is sowing distrust in America's elections when he was out on the campaign trail this week. He said if everything is honest, I'll gladly accept the results. I don't change on that. If it's not, you have to fight for the right of the country. So again, there he is just underscoring this. He's telegraphing where he is. He gave that "TIME" magazine interview as well, saying that he might actually deport millions of undocumented migrants by using the military.

People say, yes, don't listen to him, he's just blustering. What do you say?

TAYLOR: People have been making that excuse for years since I was in the administration. I mean, remember when Donald Trump said stand back and stand by to the Proud Boys, and people were up in arms, and everyone said, oh, come on, you're misreading it. Well, we later found out that the Proud Boys literally thought they might be able to stage an armed invasion into the Capitol and start a civil war.

That was their language, not mine. That they were planning for a civil war. And now it seems like the theme of his campaign is stand back and stand by. He's trying to tell these potentially violent elements to be ready should he decide to oppose the results of the election if they are not in his favor. We are playing with fire here. This is worse than what we saw with the rhetoric in 2016, worse than 2020.

We need to be ready for it and again, I always go back to this isn't a political issue. I'm still a conservative. This is a national security issue. The way he's handling this and the potential powder keg that's being created in our political system right now by Donald Trump and his allies.

DEAN: All right. Miles Taylor and Ruth Ben-Ghiat, we appreciate both of you. Thanks so much.

We'll be right back.

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[18:53:50]

DEAN: Iran's massive drone and missile strike on Israel last month prompted a new round of sanctions from the U.S.. It's a tactic the State Department has used against Iran for years. But Iran is looking to get around those limits by importing less and making more at home.

CNN's Fred Pleitgen takes us inside that effort.

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FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): An international trade fair in one of the most sanctioned countries in the world. It's called the Iran Expo and it's the Islamic Republic's attempt to market its products to businesses willing to defy U.S.-led sanctions.

Iran's leadership has said that in order to try and beat the sanctions, what they want to do is develop their own homegrown industries, like the automobile industry, and then hopefully export items like these around the world.

(Voice-over): Tehran showcasing everything from heavy machinery to food products, hoping for international buyers. It seems like a tall task. But as large economies like Russia and China increasingly find themselves under Western economic pressure, the Iranians hope they'll be more open to doing business with Tehran. We even met a parliamentarian from Mali, saying he'd do an interview but only in Russian.

[18:55:03]

Right now we have dynamic growth in the medical sector in the first place, he says, and we're also interested in widening cooperation in the oil sector and also general trade.

Iran's economy has been ravaged by what the U.S. called maximum pressure, design that the U.S. claims to compel it to stop its support for extremism, halt its crackdown on protesters and agree to a tougher nuclear deal. Unemployment and inflation are high while Iran's currency continues to devalue. Iran is working with other adversaries of the West like Russia.

The cooperation we have in the energy sector and agriculture, education and development, and the contact between our scientists, in all these directions, we can take further steps, Iran's president said at a recent meeting with Russian leader Vladimir Putin. And Iran wants to rely not only on oil and gas but also on manufacturing.

The country's deputy industries minister tells me. The reality is that sanctions have two faces, he says, the damaging side but the other side is that it makes you believe in your capabilities and become independent. But the Iranians acknowledge Western sanctions are a major hurdle not only when it comes to making their products but also trying to sell them abroad.

Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Tehran.

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DEAN: Fred, thank you.

And next, what we know about the U.S. pausing a shipment of ammunition to Israel.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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