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CNN International: IDF Urges Palestinians to Evacuate Eastern Rafah; Ceasefire and Hostage Release Talks Stall, But Not Ended; Ukraine: Civilians Detained in Russia as Bargaining Chips. Aired 4:00- 4:30a ET

Aired May 06, 2024 - 04:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[04:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The IDF has issued a statement urging people in eastern Rafah to evacuate.

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): We are not willing to accept a situation in which Hamas' battalions leave their tunnels, re-establish control.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The three bodies that were recently recovered from a cliff were determined to have been murdered.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): About their identities, we are confident we will establish it with the formal identification by their relatives.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since Russia's full-scale invasion of the country, thousands of civilians are believed to have been taken and held in detention. Yulia and another relative of a detainee decided to set up a civic organization to raise awareness about the issue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Live from London, this is CNN NEWSROOM with Max Foster.

MAX FOSTER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and a warm welcome to our viewers joining us around the world. I'm Max Foster. It is Monday, May 6th, 9 a.m. here in London, 11 a.m. in Rafah, where the Israeli military is urging people in parts of eastern Rafah to evacuate.

And as you can see in this video, from a short while ago, some people are already fleeing the area. An IDF spokesman says people will have days at least to evacuate and it affects about 100,000 people. The IDF posted this map on social media today, telling people in the area marked in red to move to the area marked in yellow.

There are well over a million Palestinians taking refuge there from the fighting. That's five times Rafah's pre-war population. Experts fear a potential IDF ground offensive in the southern Gaza city could lead to many civilian deaths. On Sunday, Israel's defense minister told IDF troops to expect intense action in Rafah in the near future.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

YOAV GALLANT, ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER (through translator): We identified alarming signs that Hamas actually does not intend to go to any agreement with us. This means we will start military actions in Rafah and the entire Gaza Strip in the very near future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: CNN international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson joins me with more on all of this. So it does feel, I mean, it's felt like it's going to happen for a while, but now it seems pretty determined. We've got almost a time frame on it.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: It does. There are several ways to look at this. This looks and feels like every other military operation that Israel has gone through with inside of Gaza over the last six months.

They tell a small area of people to move what they're actually describing not as a safe area, as a safer area. And when people move to those areas, they're often not safe. They're often still killed in airstrikes and bombings.

These areas are supposed to be humanitarian zones where people are supposed to be safe and have food supplies and water supplies. That's not what they're going to get in these safe areas. U.N. agencies say that there are shortages of water. There isn't enough water in those areas to be told to move to.

But is this actually the Rafah offensive? We don't know. As you rightly say, the Israeli government has been talking about this. The prime minister talked about it again last night, saying that we can't leave Hamas battalions in their tunnels there. They've always said that they intended to go in there.

And they tend to start in small district neighborhoods, as it is, 12 different sort of residential blocks of housing. That's not just the original housing, but obviously all those displaced Palestinians as well, telling them to go to this expanded safe area now that stretches further north and east than it did before.

But the Israeli forces have been preparing and getting ready for this possible offensive for some time, and Hamas appeared to hit a number of them in a rocket strike, killing three soldiers just outside the southern part of Gaza yesterday.

So it does seem as if, from a military perspective and a Hamas perspective, that this could be the beginning of the next substantial phase of the military operation in Gaza.

FOSTER: How do they normally manage it in practical terms? Because they obviously try to root out members of Hamas. Are there checkpoints on the way out of these neighborhoods, or have they checked for Hamas versus civilians?

ROBERTSON: This has been one of the difficulties. Number one, international reporters like CNN and other news organizations are not allowed by Israel to get access into Gaza to see independently what's going on, on the ground.

[04:05:00]

We know a huge number of journalists, dozens, scores, close to 100, have been reportedly killed inside of Gaza already. So getting accurate information is hard. But what we understand from eyewitnesses on the ground is that in these controlled zones, the IDF will often set up checkpoints that they will filter people through, that they will then arrest people they think might be responsible for what, you know, there being members of Hamas or terrorists, as they decide them.

In this phase right now, it would appear that they're pushing people towards the west, towards the coast, and the IDF would come in from the east into Gaza and sweep in. So there wouldn't be checks on them leaving that area at the moment.

But that's the dynamic that has unfolded on the ground until now.

FOSTER: Joining us now is Scott Anderson. He's director of UNRWA Affairs in Gaza. He's currently in Rafah. Thank you so much for joining us. I mean, what are you seeing on the ground in terms of direction from the Israelis?

SCOTT ANDERSON, DIRECTOR OF UNRWA AFFAIRS IN GAZA: That's what's been reported. We've seen evacuation orders given for anything in east Rafah, east of Salah al-Din, and for the neighborhoods immediately to the west of Salah al-Din in Rafah. Our best estimate is this will impact 100,000 people.

There's at least a million, perhaps 1.4 million people in Rafah, almost half of whom are children. And any kind of operation here would have catastrophic circumstances for them. And our concern is, as these 100,000 people, if they choose to evacuate to the west, that would create panic with the rest of the population. And you'd see mass movement of people to areas that are just not prepared to receive them.

FOSTER: The area that's been zoned off as a safer area, as Nic was describing, just describe that area that the IDF is suggesting civilians go to.

ANDERSON: It's all the way to the western side of the Gaza Strip, starts in Khan Younis and continues north. It's a lot of beach and sandy area, and it's really not somewhere that's quite suitable for people to put up tents and to sit and try to live and meet their basic necessities every day. So I know they expanded the area recently, but a lot of that's in Khan Younis, which we're still trying to recover from an operation that happened there.

It had a lot of destruction, a lot of impact on facilities such as health care. And really what they're doing is moving from one zone to another that's supposed to be safer but does not have the infrastructure of what they're leaving behind.

FOSTER: Do you think they'll go?

ANDERSON: I mean, look, I think that most of the people that are there have been displaced four or five times already. So for them, it's just another move as they hope to return to their homes, some in Gaza, some in Jamalia, some in the middle area. I think the people where it will be a more difficult decision are the ones who've been in Rafah the whole time and have not had to displace.

And really, it's an individual decision. For the U.N., our intention is we will stay and deliver. We will provide aid where people are. And if people choose not to leave and they're innocent civilians, they should be kept safe.

FOSTER: What sort of coordination have you got with the Israelis? Because, of course, we have had these incidents where agencies have been working with the Israelis, and they've been here anyway.

ANDERSON: I mean, I think that we're all doing our best to ensure we can deliver aid safely to people that are in need. There have been some unfortunate incidents. We've had 10 since the 21st of April where coordination has not worked as it's meant to work.

And then we had the horrible incident back in April where the colleagues from World Central Kitchen were hit. So certainly the system can use improvement. We continue to try to work with Israel to make that as safe as possible so that all our international humanitarian colleagues can continue to deliver aid to people in need and do it in a way that's safe, secure, and ensures everybody gets what they need.

FOSTER: How much harder is it going to be to get aid to civilians that need it under this new plan that you see taking place in the next few days?

ANDERSON: Our main supply line for Gaza comes from Kerem Shalom, Kerem Abu Salam, as well as Rafah. As of this morning, we don't have access to Kerem Shalom. We don't have access to Rafah for the movement of goods, for the movement of fuel, which makes this a much more daunting task for us.

We look very positively on the fact that there was a crossing open in north Gaza by Erez, and we just started operation on that this week. And we saw that as really a positive development, especially for the people in Gaza who've been facing conditions that are famine-like. But I don't think that we can resupply the entirety of the Gaza Strip from Erez. We have to have access to Kerem Shalom. We have to have access for fuel to Rafah.

Everything we do in Gaza is run by diesel.

[04:10:00]

We currently have one day of diesel on hand. If we don't have a resupply tomorrow, then everything will stop because we will run out of fuel. Trucks won't move. Generators won't work at hospitals. Sewage won't get pumped.

It's literally everything that you need to survive every day runs on fuel. And that is first and foremost our largest concern right now.

FOSTER: It could easily spread, couldn't it? If we look at previous operations like this, they start in one neighborhood, they move into other neighborhoods as they try to chase down Hamas. It could continue.

What's your concern about that when more of Rafah is taken over by the IDF?

ANDERSON: I mean, our concern is the 1.4 million people that have sought refuge from the violence in Rafah. People need to be given an opportunity to move away from conflict. If they aren't, I mean, the results would be catastrophic.

The impact would be catastrophic to have a fight in such a densely populated neighborhoods that exist throughout Rafah. Where I sit in Tel El Sultan, which is one of the neighborhoods further to the west, it's incredibly densely populated. You see tents and makeshift plastic structures everywhere.

If an operation happened here at any scale, it's hard to predict the scale of death other than to say it would be catastrophic, and the impact would be catastrophic for people who sought safety here.

FOSTER: The Americans have obviously warned against civilian casualties. They've given that warning to Israel. How much support are you getting from countries other than Israel in your work to making sure civilians are looked after?

ANDERSON: I think this is certainly a concern for everybody, I think including Israel, that innocent civilians are not harmed in this conflict. We've heard very loudly from the United States, as you mentioned, but also many countries within the European Union as well as the Gulf states. Anybody that's a donor here or is active here has the same concern as the United Nations, and that is we want innocent civilians to be kept safe, we want children to be kept safe, and we continue to call on all parties to conflict to ensure that civilians are safe and not impacted by ongoing hostilities.

FOSTER: OK, Scott Anderson, Director of UNRWA Affairs in Gaza, thank you for that.

Despite the possibility of a Rafah ground invasion looming, ceasefire talks involving Israel and Hamas have stalled, but they're apparently not over. U.S. CIA Director William Burns is in Doha right now. He was scheduled to travel to Israel on Monday but has postponed that trip, and an Egyptian source tells CNN that Hamas negotiators are expected to arrive in Doha sometime today. Hamas says it wants to strike a deal, but Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says he won't accept Hamas's demand to withdraw the IDF from Gaza.

I mean, speaking to that is, you know, Hamas wants a longer-term ceasefire, an ultimate ceasefire, really, but with the prospect of, you know, invasions increasing into Rafah, for example, how's that playing into the ceasefire talks?

ROBERTSON: It's not going to be constructive, at the very least we can say that. What we may be witnessing, rather than the precursor to a ground incursion, which it very much appears to be, but you could look at it as pressure on Hamas that the IDF is really signaling that it's about to come.

But it's been saying this for some time because Prime Minister Netanyahu has said all along that it's military pressure alone that will deliver the results that Israel wants out of Hamas. Whether or not that turns out to be an accurate assessment is unclear at the moment. It certainly hasn't been to date.

The fact that Hamas fired rockets at and hit, well, we don't know that they were at Israeli troops, but they did hit Israeli troops and they claimed that they were firing them at Israeli troops in the south of Israel, just near, over the border from Rafah. Is it an indication that you would take to mean that Hamas doesn't feel like there's track left in these negotiations, or that it's just trying to put its own pressure on Israel and say, look, we still have the ability to hit back?

So we know that the Egyptians say that they have received from Hamas their response, that they say that they're passing it to Israel. We don't know what Israel says about it right now. We know that Hamas delegation is on their way to Doha. We know that the CIA Chief Bill Burns has gone to Doha to meet with the Prime Minister, the Qatari Prime Minister, to continue talks.

There are indications that this may mean that Burns needs to talk with the Qataris about some element he wants them to do, or the United States see as constructive in the negotiation process.

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And that appears to be where the American diplomatic thrust on these talks is focusing its energies, and Hamas is also sort of grouping there for consultations. But when you look at what's happening in Rafah, it's hard to see that those talks can meaningfully progress.

Look, and let's break this down a bit more. These have been talks about a salami-sliced ceasefire that would be in stages. Hamas wants a complete ceasefire. They want to survive. Netanyahu wants to destroy them. He wants the right and ability to go and continue to destroy them in Gaza. These two things don't meet on the negotiating table. And no amount of bridge-building and salami-slicing that we've seen gets us there.

The effort over the weekend was to agree a framework that seemed close on Saturday, and then wasn't. And that framework wasn't a done deal. It was going to have to have a lot of detail still negotiated.

But the idea that you agree a framework already indicates that you can't get there on the details. So the talks have been in -- have had their ups and downs. And we don't know if we're on the way down or we're just, like, stalled at a low plateau. It's not clear. But the indications, the indications are not good. But the players are

still in the region, at least the U.S. and Hamas, in the same country as a principal negotiator.

They've gone from one interlocutor negotiator in the middle ground, Egypt, to another one. You could see that as trying to do another part of the process.

FOSTER: OK, Nic, thank you so much.

Still to come, Ukraine's Orthodox Easter celebrations in Kharkiv region were disrupted by deadly Russian airstrikes.

Plus, a Ukrainian woman is dedicating her life to finding her father, who was detained by Russian officials more than two years ago. Ukrainian officials believe he and thousands of other missing civilians are being used as political pawns.

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FOSTER: Russian airstrikes bombarded Ukraine's Kharkiv region as people celebrated Orthodox Easter on Sunday. At least one person was killed and 24 others injured in the drone and bomb attacks. Ukrainian officials say residential buildings were also damaged.

Ukrainians marked Easter by holding services in damaged churches, with one woman saying it's even more important to worship now that her husband is fighting in the east.

Meanwhile, Ukrainian soldiers on the front lines took a brief break from the fighting in order to mark the holy day, though they say they long to celebrate with their families. President Volodymyr Zelenskyy sent an Easter message to the country saying God is with them.

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VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Russia violated all the commandments, coveted our house and came to kill us. The world sees it, God knows it.

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And we believe God has a chevron with a Ukrainian flag on his shoulder. So with such an ally, life will definitely win over death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: And now to a less visible tragedy of the war in Ukraine. Officials in Kyiv and human rights officers believe thousands of Ukrainian civilians are being detained in prisons deep inside Russian territory. Some family members are doing what they can to find answers and bring their loved ones home.

CNN investigative producer Katie Polglase brings us the story.

(END VIDEOTAPE) YULIA KHRYPUN, FATHER DETAINED IN RUSSIA (through translated text): My father turned 48 in captivity. On February 22, before the full-scale invasion, he went to work. He was supposed to stay there for a week, but he hasn't returned from there yet, because he is now in captivity.

KATIE POLGLASE, CNN INVESTIGATIVE PRODUCER (voice-over): Yulia is one of many people in Ukraine desperately seeking information about their relatives. Since Russia's full-scale invasion of the country, thousands of civilians are believed to have been taken and held in detention, the Ukrainian government says. Yulia's father, Sergei, is one of them.

KHRYPUN (through translated text): I know that where he worked, on that territory, there were Russian rear serviceman. On March 24, at about 10 o'clock, he called me and told me that there were two new cars driving around the village and that he didn't know these servicemen.

I asked him if everything was OK. He said, "Yes, we are sitting." I told him to stay, don't come out. He said, "fine." It seems to me that at that moment he already knew that he would be taken away. That was our last conversation we had.

POLGLASE (voice-over): Yulia's father is now thought to be held in a detention facility in Kamensk-Shakhtinsky. But due to legal black holes, the chances of his release are slim.

KHRYPUN (through translated text): From the very beginning the answers were just a set of words, a set of laws that were completely irrelevant. From the very beginning, they had no understanding of civilian hostages and that someone could enquire about them.

POLGLASE (voice-over): International laws prohibit warring parties from detaining civilians unless there is a serious security reason for it.

Ukraine's human rights commissioner says that Russia is pressuring Ukraine to recognize detained civilians as prisoners of war and exchange them for captured Russian soldiers. This is not something Ukraine is willing to do because it would put more Ukrainians in occupied areas at risk. Russian authorities have not responded to CNN's requests for comment.

Yulia and another relative of a detainee decided to set up a civic organization to raise awareness about the issue and to help them get better access to officials. Now they hold regular meetings with the coordination headquarters for the treatment of prisoners of war and the ombudsman's office. In the face of uncertainty, memories of her father help Yulia stay strong.

KHRYPUN (through translated text): It was evening, and my father came home and brought Darla, the cat. Of course, she reminds (me of my father).

(END VIDEOTAPE) FOSTER: CNN's Ivana Kottasova has reported extensively on missing Ukrainians. She joins me now from Prague. First of all, Ivana, if I could just ask you about the, you know, the news that we've had, these increased strikes. It feels as if the Russians are getting in before the weaponry arrives from the U.S.

IVANA KOTTASOVA, CNN SENIOR WRITER: Indeed, indeed, Max. It is quite obvious that Russia is really trying to take advantage of this ammunition shortage that Ukraine is still facing. Yes, as you say, the U.S. Congress has approved this big $61 billion package in weapons assistance, weapons and ammunition assistance, but it takes time for this material to get to Ukraine.

And this window of opportunity is closing for Russia, so they're trying, really trying to make those tactical advances before the material gets in. So we can see a lot of attacks on strategic supply lines, on rail lines, on roads, and so on. And at the same time, we are seeing attacks against civilian infrastructure.

And as you say, this weekend was a very tough weekend for Ukraine. It was the Orthodox Easter holiday, which is obviously a very meaningful religious holiday, a time for people to get together and celebrate. And it was disrupted, especially in the eastern Kharkiv region, by this big wave of strikes, two consecutive nights of attacks, a lot of damage.

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And again, it shows that Russia is really trying to cause as much damage as it can before this American assistance gets to Ukraine.

FOSTER: Yes, and in terms of the missing Ukrainians, obviously, gut- wrenching for any family involved here, and especially when they can't get the information they need. But, you know, what are we hear from Russia on that?

KOTTASOVA: We're not hearing anything from Russia on this, and this is part of the problem. And as the interview with Yulia already showed, that adds to the desperation. So Russian authorities either deny having these people or they give completely contradictory information.

We have spent many weeks trying to reach different Russian agencies, security agencies, prison service, the defense ministry, all of the agencies that are involved in this mass detention of civilians, and we are getting absolutely no responses whatsoever.

And it's obviously even worse for the families who are, you know, trying to find their loved ones who are lost somewhere in Russia. Most of the time, the only information they can get is from eyewitnesses who were detained in the same locations, in the same facilities, in the same prisons, who are then released, come back to Ukraine, and then give information to the families of their former fellow prisoners.

But there is absolutely no confirmation and no official information from Russia. We've been told about cases where there would be a public trial, so Russia would hold a trial, it would publish photographs from the trial, and yet at the same time, it would tell the family of the person who is on trial that they don't know where they are, they have no information about it. So Russia is really tight-lipped on this, and it's just adding to the desperation of these families -- Max.

FOSTER: OK, Ivana, thank you so much for bringing us that.

Still to come, Donald Trump's criminal hush money trial, now entering its fourth week. We'll look at some of the potential witnesses who could take the stand in the days ahead.

And extreme weather across the globe. We'll look at the deadly floods forcing hundreds of thousands of people to flee their homes.

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