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CNN International: Hamas Accepts Ceasefire Proposal, Awaiting Israeli Response; American Soldier Arrested On Suspicion Of Theft In Russia; Trump Org Employee Testifies In Hush Money Trial; Israeli Military Orders Palestinians To Leave Eastern Rafah. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired May 06, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:35]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: It is 8:00 p.m. in London, 10:00 p.m. in Rafah, 3:00 p.m. here in New York. I'm Jim Sciutto. Thanks so much for joining me today on CNN NEWSROOM.

And let's get right to the news.

In the courthouse behind me, the criminal hush money trial, of former President Donald Trump is now in its third week. We'll have much more on the trial coming up, including the latest.

But first, we do have breaking news out of the Middle East as Hamas has agreed to the cease-fire proposal from Egypt and Qatar. The U.S. and Israel say they are now reviewing it as we await their response.

People of Gaza -- they're already celebrating the news as you see here, while hostage families took to the streets demanding that Israeli leaders accept the deal as well. This possible agreement comes after Israel's military ordered thousands in eastern Rafah in Gaza to evacuate immediately. That is where an offensive has long been threatened.

Let's bring CNN's Nic Robertson in for more.

So, Nic, we've seen this and you cover this very closely back and forth on these negotiations for some time, they stalled on the weekend as a mosque demanded that Israel commit to end the war entirely. Then we had the continuing threat of the Israeli invasion of Rafah.

Let me ask you this. Hamas says it has agreed. The U.S. says it is still reviewing that response. We're not quite sure of Israel's response. Can you give us the state of play?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: I can give you it as best we have it and best to have it from my sources, what Hamas has agreed to is not precisely what Israel had in mind. That's what I understand from my sources, hence, why it's being studied carefully. It doesn't mean that the last part is unbridgeable we don't know what that gap may be and that may be filled by some sort of, we can call it an amendment if you like, or all still work to be done, I think is the point here.

We always understood over the weekend that this would be a framework deal and that there could be a weeks worth of talking to hammer out the details. We don't know if the missing part of the moment is framework size or detailed size. What I understand from sources over the weekend was that there were guarantees that essentially Egypt and Hamas, if it was going to sign up to the deal, were looking to get from Qatar.

Now, we know that Bill Burns was in Qatar over the past few days and spent a lot of time in discussion with the Qatari prime minister. We know that Hamas had their senior leadership consulting in Qatar over the weekend as well, and in the latter part of the weekend. So it does appear as if Hamas has wanted something, has come along, but also potentially wrong footed. The Israeli prime minister -- you're looking there at the celebrations, both in inside Gaza and we've been looking at the demonstrations as well in Israel, putting pressure on Prime Minister Netanyahu because it's suddenly appears again as if there is a potential central release of hostages.

So it does seem in the way that negotiations go and we both know and have covered many negotiations that it's the last minutes and those last details where both sides tried to sort of wrong foot the other one, and get some concessions, we don't know if precisely that is what is in play at the moment, but what we are understanding from Hamas as they have told broadcasters, the detail as they understand it, they appear to be interpreting some language that we haven't heard before.

Of course, Hamas wants this permanent cease-fire. There was going to be a phased approach and Hamas is interpreting this language as a sustainable calm, which achieves a cease fire. And at some point in the second phase, a sustainable calm will be achieved or announced, which will move things along with a lot of the details we don't know, but we do have broken down some of the some of the definitive details that Hamas understands that would happen around hostage releases.

And if I can go into those details here, the first 42 days, six weeks, Hamas is committing to release 33 Israeli hostages. That is, the women, the children under 19, the elderly over 50 and the sick and infirmed, they say not all of those are alive. And their spelling out how they would be released on day one, three of them would be released and then there will be three more each week, until the last week when the remainder would be released, a sizable number. That's the negotiation --

[15:05:25]

SCIUTTO: But, Nic, a question.

ROBERTSON: Yeah.

SCIUTTO: A question just before we go into each detail. Is it our understanding that Hamas has accepted an Egyptian and Qatari proposal or Hamas is in effect making its own proposal to return to the Israelis? ROBERTSON: The way it's being understood at the moment is that Hamas is accepting the proposal that was put on the table by Egypt and Qatar. It does seem that it was Egypt and then further, something happened in Qatar, perhaps over the past 24 hours is what appears to have been in play here. But yes, this at the moment doesn't appear to be them making up details as best we know. But going along with a proposal that may not be the proposal that Israel had in mind, that Israel had not even agreed to itself over the weekend.

That's the gap, isn't it? Hamas is saying we're agreeing to something that Israel hasn't said that it will agree to it. And that's where were at. So it's not a deal yet.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. I mean, a lot of those categories as you describe them, there's room for interpretation, right? For instance, how lasting a cease fire and how much of that is a path to a sustainable peace? Nic Robertson, we know you're going to cover it closely. Thanks so much.

I do want to bring in CNN national security analyst and former deputy director of national intelligence, Beth Sanner.

Beth, thanks so much good to have you given your own experience in negotiations like this before.

I wonder, based on what we know and granted, there's a lot we don't know about the details. Do you hear a negotiating tactic here by Hamas leaders apply some pressure? Or do -- do you hear genuine progress?

BETH SANNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Probably a little bit of both. This is, you know, your glass half-full, your glass half empty situation and, you know, clearly, Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza, is somebody who is excellent at negotiations, at seeing vulnerabilities, at playing things to his effect. And just the images you showed of the people, you know, cheering and celebrating in Rafah shows how, you know, clever this was, whether its intentional or not.

But like if you're looking at it from Hamas' perspective, Israel's now got the ball on their court and a lot of pressure on them not to go after Rafah, not to attack. And that puts Hamas in a good seat. They're trying to survive.

SCIUTTO: Big picture, which side is under greater pressure, would you say, or feels they're under greater pressure at this point to come to a deal?

SANNER: You know, in some ways, I think this is in the mind of the leaders, right? So its how did they feel, do they feel that they're in a better position or not? I actually think that Sinwar is probably feeling pretty good in terms of trying to figure out how we can play this out or divide Israel from its supporters, with the United States today announcing or it coming out we are suspending an aid shipment, a military aid shipment. This plays very much into Hamas's hands.

Whereas, Netanyahu has hostage families setting bonfires and protesting against him. He's got his right flank saying that the government will fall if he agrees. So he's got it from all sides and were putting the full court press on them because so much of the U.S. strategy in ending this war and also in terms of domestic politics rest on getting this deal done.

SCIUTTO: Yeah, it's a good point because from the U.S. perspective here, not only is there a desire, it seems to end this war and to reduce the chances of an escalation in the region and expansion of this war, but there are domestic political considerations as well. You have the Biden administration in the midst of a reelection campaign that views a longer bloodier war there as potentially politically damaging at home.

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So would you say that there are both domestic and international pressures from the U.S. perspective?

SANNER: Absolutely. You know, the campus protests will diffuse if there is a cease fire now. I don't know whether it will bring people who are so angry at President Biden for not getting a permanent cease fire prioritizing that, but it is absolutely of domestic concern, but that doesn't -- that doesn't mean I'm not saying that they don't care about what happens in the Middle East. Absolutely, you know?

SCIUTTO: Right.

SANNER: And this is the key to flooding the zone with aid, and this is the key to getting the Saudi-Israeli normalization, which is key to a long-term stabilization of the Middle East.

So there's, you know, this is the linchpin to getting all of those things done.

SCIUTTO: There's an Israeli view that the threat of a Rafah invasion, incursion, whatever you want to call it, that that threat has succeeded in applying pressure on Hamas to come to the negotiating table and perhaps make a deal.

Do you think that that is its true?

SANNER: I do. I actually do.

So this is why, you know, kind of the half glass full, half glass empty. You know, here, I'm thinking that they're actually is because, you know, what's going on right now in Gaza, we've got Sinwar, if he think he's in the south, right? He's in the tunnels somewhere with two battalions, thousands of fighters. This is their last, we know, repost. This is their last stand.

And the risk that they're going to go in, that Israel is going to go in and turn this into the ret, what the rest of Gaza looks like. Sinwar is, you know, wanted man number one, the Israelis want to kill him.

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

SANNER: And so, this is -- yeah, I think so. SCIUTTO: Yeah. Listen, we should note that that in these negotiations, on one side, the Hamas side is the man who was the architect of those horrible October 7th attacks. This is -- this is part of the difficulty in these negotiations.

Beth Sanner, thanks so much.

So how would a potential ceasefire affect the dire humanitarian situation in Gaza? For that part of the story, I'm joined now by Mara Kronenfeld. She is the executive director of the U.N. Relief and Works Agency, UNRWA, as its known here in the United States.

First, and thanks so much for joining. I wonder what is your reaction to a potential ceasefire between Israel and Hamas? And what that would mean specifically for the humanitarian situation there?

MARA KRONENFELD, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, UNRWA USA: Yes. And first, I should just correct you, Jim, I'm the executive director of UNRWA USA, which is closely coordinating with the United Nations with UNRWA, but actually a separate institution.

SCIUTTO: Right.

KRONENFELD: But yes, we are extremely, extremely concerned about a potential invasion of Rafah. There are some 1.4 million people there. And among those 1.4 million are 600,000 children. These are children who are already malnutrition -- or suffered from for malnutrition, many of them have been disabled, have lost their limbs in this assault on Gaza, and we are worried about them of being further traumatized, further injured in a massive attack.

The World Health Organization has said that they're worried about a blood bath and the especially in light of the fact that the health system is already broken down in Rafah.

SCIUTTO: Mara, the Israeli defense forces had earlier today called on some 100 people to leave Rafah signaling that the possibility of a somewhat smaller incursion into Rafah. In words, they were not asking for every all of the 1 million to leave, but the U.S. State Department spokesperson, Matt Miller said that the U.S. is concerned that really that is possible that if you ask 100,000 to leave, many more might calculate, they need to leave as well, but also raising questions about the area that Israel as identified for them to go to find safety as being barely if at all livable.

I mean, is such an evacuation practical and doable?

KRONENFELD: There is no safe place in Gaza. There is no safe zone in Gaza. There never has been. There have been civilians, 182 now, UNRWA, U.N. colleagues have been killed. The area that Israel is asking internally displaced people, mind you, these are Palestinians in Gaza who have been displaced multiple times since this war began I see is actually about seven or eight square miles.

[15:15:01] That's about the size (AUDIO GAP). There are already 450,000 displaced people there, Palestinians in Gaza there. They're asking 100,000 to go. This is an area of sand. There's no sanitation, there's no water, complete overcrowding. And as you mentioned, many more will flee because the they're already be seeing some 6,000 people just from this morning, cross out of the Rafah area trying to go north.

We are extremely concerned about the humanitarian conditions already in Rafah, and you imagine a few population transfer to a place the size of Atlanta airport with probably upwards of 600,000 people if this assault happens.

SCIUTTO: Mara, before we go just briefly, as you note, UNRWA USA is a separate organization from UNRWA. But as you know, funding was suspended to UNRWAR a number of weeks ago. Can you update us on where that stands?

KRONENFELD: Yes. Actually, with the release of the Colonna report, which is an independent analysis of UNRWA's neutrality practices, we were really happy to see that that French foreign minister Catherine Colonna and her team three independent Scandinavian research institutions, were actually able to find, they found that UNRWA had some of the most robust neutrality policies and procedures than any other U.N. organization.

And that's not to say there isn't an improvement and UNRWA welcomes any improvement that's needed. At the same time, that report said that there were -- Israel has not provided any evidence about the allegations about UNRWA somehow being infiltrated by Hamas.

So with that, we have seen countries come back in. Germany, for example, was funding outside of Gaza where UNRWA works, is now funding the work in Gaza.

And that nine countries who had defunded after the U.S. stopped funding are back in. We do hope that the U.S. government reconsiders given -- given how supportive this report was of UNRWA's operations, albeit in a conflict zone and under extreme financial stress, as you know.

SCIUTTO: Right. It's an important update given the headlines, number of weeks ago, Mara Kronenfeld, thanks so much for joining.

After the break, Donald Trump back in court for another day of his criminal hush money trial. The courtroom is just behind me, in fact. We're going to break down the latest testimony and significance, that's coming up.

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SCIUTTO: Turning now to Russia, this breaking news just in to CNN. We have learned that on Thursday, Russian authorities detained a U.S. soldier on suspicion of theft they say. That soldier is now being held in pretrial detention. Let's go to the Pentagon for an update from CNN's Natasha Bertrand.

Natasha, I mean, first of all, do we know the circumstances under which the soldier went to Russia?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We don't, Jim, other than that, it was of his own volition. He was stationed in South Korea and he decided to travel to Russia. But officials here aren't willing to say exactly why he chose to do so at this point. All we know at this time is that he is a staff sergeant. He was a member of the U.S. Army and he was arrested on suspicion of theft on May 2nd. He is currently being held in pretrial detention in Russia until at least July 1st, according to officials.

And the U.S. embassy in Moscow is trying to get consular access to him, we're told and they did inform his family that he has been detained. But at this point, it's unclear just whether the embassy is having any success and actually getting access to him.

But obviously this is just one of several Americans that Russia currently has detained in its prison system, including Paul Whelan and Evan Gershkovich. And so, it's going to be very tough, likely for the U.S. to get him released, particularly because of course he is a U.S. soldier. He is very possibly valuable for that reason.

So, it's unclear at this point, just what he was arrested for other than that, it was suspicion that he stole something but, of course, as we know, the Russians have been very reluctant to engage in any meaningful way with the U.S. on these kinds of releases of these detainees that they have that are Americans, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. And we know the U.S. position is that oftentimes Russia's alleged charges are either trumped up or groundless. And, of course, as you say, the military background given Paul Whelan's experience is a daunting -- a daunting one.

Natasha Bertrand at the Pentagon, thanks so much.

We are back live at 100 Center Street in Lower Manhattan for the eighth day of testimony in former President Donald Trump's criminal hush money trial. Today's focus has been on following the money.

On the stand now is Deborah Tarasoff, an accountant for Trump Organization, who helped arrange the monthly payments wired straight from Trumps personal account, and this is key, to his then attorney Michael Cohen, transfers that began after Trump was in the White House. She was following her boss, Trump Organization bookkeeper Jeffrey McConney, who testified this morning.

Plus, the judge ruling another violation of Trump's gag order. The judge fined Trump for the tenth time after he publicly disparage the jury pool in a radio interview. He said that Trump is now hereby put on notice, that's a quote, that jail time is on the table if he does not fall in line and follow the gag order.

CNN's Jessica Schneider is following this all and solid joins me now. Jessica, the testimony today you could say it's the receipts, right, following the money trail here, but significant, is it not, because you have employees of Trump Organization saying this was money that came out of Trump's personal account. Tell us the significance and how this fits into the prosecutor's broader case here against the former president.

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, there's multiple layers of significance here, Jim, and you mentioned one of them that it came out of Donald Trump's personal account. That's prosecutors using that to really show that Donald Trump was intimately involved in this scheme. But they're getting into the nitty-gritty, the invoices, the ledgers, the tax, all because prosecutors have to prove all 34 counts in this indictment, all of them falsification of business records.

So they have to do it by going really line-by-line on these ledgers and invoices to show that the books were essentially fudged about why Michael Cohen was being paid back this more than $400,000 to cover this $130,000 that he paid to Stormy Daniels. What's interesting is prosecutors previously elicited testimony today that the payments they were billed as retainers for legal services. But when the Trump organizer, Trump Organization controller, testified this morning, Jeffrey McConney, he testified that he never actually saw any retainer agreement.

[15:25:04]

Now, we're hearing on the stand, Deborah Tarasoff, she's worked for the Trump Org for more than 20 years. She runs the accounts payable department. She's also going through this authenticating the evidence with McConney. We saw the ledgers, now with Tarasoff, she's really running through the checks. She's showing how the checks were sent down to the White House while Trump was president, so he could sign them with sharpies.

So prosecutors are really trying their best to link Trump directly to these records and they're doing it not only by showing the signatures and sharpies, but also showing how closely Trump followed all of these financial transactions. There was one point in the testimony were McConney has talked about how he was called into Trump's office at one point. Trump initially told him, jokingly, you're fired, but then said that McConney needed to pay closer attention because Trump had noticed that the cash ledgers from week to were down.

So prosecutors really just trying to show how intricately linked Trump was to all of these financial transactions. So, Jim, we have seen two people this morning, McConney and now Tarasoff, they were in the accounts payable. The controller functions were they saw all of the money, they saw how Trump interacted with it. And this is a crucial part of the prosecutions case since they have to really show those 34 recurrence were in fact falsified.

SCIUTTO: Right. Those records are central to the prosecutor's case.

Before we go, Trump's attorney objected to a lot of this evidence. Can you explain how they were pushing back in the courtroom?

SCHNEIDER: Well, I mean, they're trying to push back against all of this evidence because this is the key evidence to this case -- the ledgers, the signatures, the checks. I mean, so Trump's -- I believe most of their objections were overruled, but they're going to try anything they can to keep all of this crucial evidence out of the record because they want to do as much as they can to damage the prosecution and create this reasonable doubt in jurors minds.

I'll also note that when prosecutor, when the defense team has gotten up to question, at least McConney at this point because we haven't gotten to the cross exam yet of Tarasoff, but, you know, they wanted to stress with McConney, hey, you never actually talked to Trump, right? You never saw him specifically going over any of these records, right?

So again, they're trying to cast the doubt in the jury's mind that Trump was intricately involved here.

SCIUTTO: Jessica Schneider, thanks so much.

Well, more breaking news this hour, we continue to follow developments out of the Middle East where Hamas says it has accepted a ceasefire proposal in the ongoing war with Israel and Gaza. Israel's prime minister has now released a statement saying, quote Hamas has proposal is far from Israel's necessary requirements but that, quote, Israel will send a working level debit delegation to the mediators, adding that the operation in Rafah will continue.

Family members of Israeli hostages, there had been held by Hamas since October 7th, have been gathering outside Israel's security headquarters, demanding the Israeli government agreed to a ceasefire deal.

CNN's Paula Hancock joins us now.

And, Paula, it would seem to be that the Israeli prime minister is making clear that whatever Hamas has agreed to is not good enough for Israel.

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It seems so, Jim, and that's what we were trying to figure out what exactly Hamas had agreed to and whether it was a revised version of what Israel had not yet agreed to, but certainly had been party. So, apparently, there was a war cabinet meeting and it was unanimously decided that the operation in Rafah would continue.

In fact, they have also said that they are right now conducting targeted sites against Hamas in eastern Rafah. Now this is the area in the southern part of the Gaza Strip. It's an area where just earlier today, about 100,000 people had been told to evacuate from that area. Now that's certainly not giving them very much time.

We don't know how significant these strikes are at this point and how widespread this is. The latest we have from the prime ministers office but it is interesting, Jim, that's the statement does say that what Hamas has agreed to or Hamas's proposal is the exact word that they use, is far from Israel's necessary requirements. And that does, of course, point to the fact that that potentially talking about to separate proposals or at least two separate revisions of the proposals or that Hamas is reading it one way and Israel is reading it another way.

Now just on Sunday nights, local time after the Hamas delegation left Cairo, they said they had given their formal decision, their formal response.

[15:30:08]

And very shortly afterwards, Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, said that Hamas was sticking to what he called extreme positions, saying that they were insisting on an end to the war and for the Israeli military to pull out of Gaza. Two things that Israel has said very clearly they will not agree to at this point as Netanyahu said, they believed that that would allow Hamas to remain intact and remain a threat to Israel in the future.

So, it really is an interesting developments and really raises more questions than answers. As to exactly what was in this Hamas proposal and how much it differs from what Israel had believed was on the table at the time -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Well, Israeli officials do say they're going to send mediators back to the table. So at least the door not closed at this point, but certainly to your point, does not do that there at the finish line here.

Paula Hancocks, thanks so much.

We'll continue to monitor news from the Middle East and we'll be back right after a short break.

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SCIUTTO: Welcome back to New York.

Quote: A third world authoritarian tactic, that is what the Trump campaign is calling Judge Merchan's threat to jail Trump if he continues to violate his limited gag order, which only prevents Trump, we should note from speaking about potential witnesses, jurors, and legal aids. It does not stop Trump from going after the judge himself, the Manhattan D.A. Alvin Bragg, or even the overall case.

[15:35:01]

And as we know, Trump continues to do so almost daily. He did so again over the weekend in Palm Beach using an RNC fundraiser to weigh in on the trial potential VP contenders and much more.

CNN's Kristen Holmes, she covers the Trump campaign, joins me now.

Kristen, I wonder what the Trump campaign approaches to this, or even what Trump's approaches, because they have some experience with gag orders. They've had it in this case and others, they know what the gag orders cover. For instance, attacking the jury and what it does not cover, Trump's first amendment right to attack the case in general. And yet he continues to do so.

I mean, does the -- does the campaign understand that? Or is there some misunderstanding about the legal outlines of these gag orders?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, I do want to point one thing out, which is that Donald Trump has not violated the gag order since that first time that he was found in contempt and had to pay $9,000, the judge saying that he had violated the gag order nine separate times, had to pay that $9,000.

Remember, these four other charges, only one of which was found in contempt for by the judge, all happened again before that $9,000. Now, we talked a lot about the fact that Donald Trump has a lot of money that he's a billionaire. Donald Trump does not like parting with money. He's very involved as we've seen through this trial in every kind of transaction that involves his money. So, he doesn't like the fact that he's had to pay the money.

The other part of this, of course, is the fact that the judge has now threatened this potential jail time. We can also talk all about the fact that Donald Trump had taken these mug shots and then use them for political gain and fundraising as well as trying to get up his poll numbers. The fact, is the Donald Trump when he went to go take that mug shot, said that he was basically humiliated, that they believed that this was beneath him to have to actually take this mugshot and the idea of him sitting in jail is not something that Donald Trump wants to do.

Now, I will say that if it does end up happening, he, of course, will claim that he is like Nelson Mandela, which is what he has said in the past already, these mean politically persecuted, but up until then, Donald Trump does not want to pay any more money or sit in jail.

So the, the big question is whether or not he can actually control himself because that's really what this all comes down to. He's been briefed by his lawyers. He has been putting some of his actual posts in front of them for he pulls the trigger on them trying to make sure that they fall underneath this gag order, which so far they have.

But again, Donald Trump is quick to just put out what he's thinking. So, whether or not you can actually control himself, that's the real question.

SCIUTTO: No question. Donald Trump does not like to part with money as you described there. Even some testimony prior in the case write about his desire perhaps not to pay out all of the hush money payments.

Kristen Holmes, we know you'll continue to follow, thanks so much.

Inside the courtroom, behind me, they are taking a brief break. Deborah Tarasoff, an accountant for the Trump organization has been on the stand testifying to every check wire an invoice from Trumps personal trust to his then attorney, Michael Cohen. I want to bring in to lead legal experts to put into context the

importance of this and how it fits into the prosecutor's case, Jeff Swartz, former Florida judge, professor at Cooley Law School, and CNN legal affairs commentator Areva Martin, of course, a lawyer herself.

Good to have you both on. Jeff and Areva, I feel I can check it with you every day on this case.

So, no high-profile Hope Hicks level witnesses today, but this appears to be a day about the paper trail. Can you explain why those Trump Organization employees testimony is key to the prosecutors case?

JEFFREY SWARTZ, FORMER FLORIDA JUDGE: What I'm seeing is an attempt by the prosecution to basically surround Donald Trump to the extent that he has no place to turn to blame all of this on somebody else. It's almost like, you know, the Native Americans are surrounding General Custer and it's what they're doing.

They're trying to show that everything went to him. Everything got signed by him. Everything went through Weisselberg, who won't -- never did anything without talking to Donald. All of the invoices didn't match up with what they were paying Cohen before.

So, it's one of those things where, you know, why is he signing those checks with the sharpie out of the Oval Office? And paying out of his own -- his own account, his trust account for something that's supposed to be provided for the organization, but wasn't provided by the organization. Yet, the money is coming from the organization into Trump's own personal account. It's a surround mechanism where he would have no place to go to explain this.

SCIUTTO: And to show his I imagine direct involvement throughout.

Areva, why is it important to the case that these payments happen while Trump was president?

[15:40:02]

What's the significance of that?

AREVA MARTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you have to remember, Jim, that the whole premise of the prosecution's case is that the Stormy Daniels payment, the whole scheme to kill the story regarding Stormy Daniels took place before the election, where Trump was elected president.

It was all done to suppress that story so that voters continue to vote for Donald Trump. He was particularly concerned about female voters. He was concerned how they would respond if the story of him having an affair with Stormy Daniels got out, right before the election so showing that all of this is happening, right after he is indeed elected president is the part of the prosecutions case.

And another thing I think was important today was the irregularity of these payments. So Stormy Daniels payment by Michael Cohen was $130,000, yet the pavement to Michael Cohen is much more than almost three times that amount. Actual testimony that some of the money was used to pay for his taxes related to the $130,000.

So we know in a typical legal bill situation, lawyers don't get paid the taxes for the legal fees that they charge their clients. So many irregularities were exposed this morning through the testimony of these two Trump organization employees.

SCIUTTO: Now we do expect Michael Cohen himself to testify, but there are, of course, issues with that, given the history of lying.

So I wonder, Jeff Swartz, are these witnesses set up to bolster Cohen's eventual testimony and the credibility of that testimony.

SWARTZ: Well, it's set up to show that the payments were made just as Michael will testify, that that's what was happening. But it's also meant to provide the idea that we talked about once before that Michael was nothing more than a bag man. And he was being repaid for his services as a bag man and producing money from himself and getting repaid for it.

So, all of this is meant to bolster his testimony. The context of setting up the scheme that he was not really, he wasn't part of setting it up. He was just a mechanism within the scheme.

SCIUTTO: Understood.

Areva, before we go, the judge ruled that Trump violated his gag order once more, a 10th time, on other thousand dollar fine, but he did say and seeming to indicate that as patients is running thin, that he reserves the right to jail Trump if this behavior continues.

I wonder, do you find that a serious threat? Might this judge, if Trump continues to violate the gag order, actually put them behind bars for a night or more?

MARTIN: Oh, I think absolutely, Jim, to the extent that any of the judges in the -- various cases involving Donald Trump have made -- has made it very clear that jail is the possibility. This judge in this trial has done so, and he is not faltered. He is not in any way I think shown any willingness to allow Donald Trump to control either the narrative or his courtroom.

So I think it was a very serious statement and one that Trump presumably is going to take to heart. We've already heard that he's been a lot more cautious. He's used a lot more discretion with regards to the attacks.

Now, he's attacked the district attorney. He's attacked the judge, but he is remained in compliance with the gag order as it relates to the witnesses and the jurors. And I think it's because of the sturdiness and the rules that have been set by this judge.

Obviously, that's the only way to control Donald Trump and the behavior that he's demonstrated in all of these criminal proceedings.

SCIUTTO: Listen, in a series of remarkable events, that would be quite a remarkable outcome. Jeff Swartz, Areva Martin, thanks so much.

And just after the break, celebrations on the streets of Gaza, as Hamas, at least accepts a ceasefire proposal. Where does Israel stand? We're going to return to our stop -- the top story, next.

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SCIUTTO: Resetting our top story, Hamas has agreed to a ceasefire proposal from Egypt and Qatar. Israel's prime minister has released a statement saying Hamas's proposal is far from Israel's necessary requirements, but that Israel will send a working level delegation to the mediators, adding, however, that Israel's operation in Rafah will continue.

The people of Gaza, they were seeing here celebrating the news of Hamas's apparent acceptance. While hostage families took to the streets demanding that Israeli leaders accept this deal. They want those hostages home.

Joining me now from Cairo is H.A. Hellyer. He's a senior associate fellow at the Royal United Services Institute for Defense and Security Studies.

First of all, good to have you on.

Israeli defense forces say they are currently conducting targeted strikes against Hamas terror targets in eastern Rafah. What does that tell you about the status of the ceasefire, I wonder?

H.A. HELLYER, ROYAL UNITED SERVICES INSTITUTE FOR DEFENSE AND SECURITY STUDIES: Well, thank you very much for having me, Jim.

Just as a short addendum to your introduction, "Haaretz" and Israeli media actually reported shortly before we went on air that a foreign diplomat confirm that the deal that Hamas accepted is essentially the same deal that Israel accepted not so long ago. So I think we have to put this into the frame of domestic Israeli politics where Netanyahu is looking for any way to avoid having to actually accept the deal because then that means he doesn't go into Rafah. Not going to Rafah very well bring down his government because of the far-right elements that he has within the government that demand that he does go into Rafah.

And what you've just asked me now about these IDF movements and the ongoing campaign and the ongoing military strikes, throughout Rafah I think is very telling.

When we look at the statements coming from the Israeli government over the past few weeks, it's very clear they intend to go into Rafah one way or the other and at the same time, they've been engaging in this negotiation tactic over the last few days, last few weeks. But it's very difficult to go about a serious negotiation when one side is very clear that come hell or high water, we're going to come and invade. It's just a question of when.

I think that these movements and that part of Rafah could be one of many things, it could mean a prelude to a much wider invasion of Rafah. It could mean unlimited campaign where they continue the assassinations and the killings that have been going on for the past week, we simply don't know.

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What we do know is that the Israelis have agreed to send a delegation to the negotiations. So that represents at least a breather. Whether or not it means that the ceasefire will take hold as is -- as of yet unclear. We do know that the United States has called publicly on Israel to not going to Rafah.

SCIUTTO: Take a moment.

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HELLYER: That most world leaders --

SCIUTTO: Take a moment because there's a lot there. Take a moment because there's a lot there.

So you're saying that Israel from your reading this situation will not give up its plans to invade Rafah?

HELLYER: I'm saying that what Israel has made clear over the past weeks is that it definitely intends to go into Rafah.

One of the reasons being that as I said, far-right elements within Israel's cabinet have made it very clear that if they don't go into Rafah, then the government will fall.

Now, whether or not that will be sufficient for Netanyahu to avoid not going into the Rafah is anyone's best guess. But at the moment, even while these negotiations were ongoing and people were calling on the negotiations to be successful and hostages to be returned home to their families, and evading the eventuality of an invasion into Rafah with a widespread massacre, which is what the Belgian foreign minister I believe said would happen today, they were still saying we're going to go on into Rafah one way or the other, deal or no deal.

So the question is, should we take Netanyahu at his word or not?

SCIUTTO: No question. I mean, U.S. officials have been saying in recent days and weeks that they're not convinced that Netanyahu will stick to that commitment, that some of those statements are meant for domestic political consumption. We know that U.S. officials have put pressure on Israel to at least limit its operations inside Rafah.

Is there -- do you find it plausible that Israel could limit operations inside Rafah to the extent that negotiations continue? Or does any sized operation in Rafah effectively killed the negotiations?

So, one point that I'd just like to clarify here, there's no real American pressure on Israel when we say pressure, what were talking about is rhetoric as strong rhetoric from the White House in terms of, you know, don't go in without a plan for evacuation of civilians, don't do this, don't do that.

But in terms of pressure, there's not being the slightest bit of leverage that is being used by the United States to hold Israel back over the past seven months, including on this operation, when it comes to the provision of weapons, when it comes to the U.N. Security Council and political cover.

HELLYER: So that's just one point there. There's one hopeful sign in terms of a partial suspension of some ammunition that was reported today? But generally speaking, over the past seven months, it's been very clear the United States has been low to use any actual leverage. It has so pressure here is really limited to rhetoric (ph).

When it comes to the negotiations and being successful while an operation is going on, you know, you could look into this of one of two ways, over the last few weeks, there have been operations already ongoing in Rafah. Dozens of people dying on a daily basis and we've seen that according to the United Nations and others, where the humanitarian situation is already in a very abysmal state, where famine and starvation is all around the Rafah and Gaza, and yet the negotiations have continued.

So I think that that its very possible that it will continue, that they will continue until it goes past a certain point where the Israelis say, were not doing negotiations anymore.

SCIUTTO: Well, there is the U.S. officials' view that pressure they've applied has at least held back the size of that invasion, or perhaps delayed it. But, of course, well see as it develops in the coming days.

H.A. Hellyer, thanks so much.

President Biden, we're told, has been briefed on the Hamas response to that cease-fire deal proposal. The White House spokesperson says the administration is now reviewing that response, offered no specifics. In fact, said did not want to comment publicly because they didn't want to disrupt the negotiations.

Kylie Atwood, which she covers the State Department for us.

Kylie, given that we now have an Israeli public statement from the prime minister that this deal does not meet Israeli demands. Is the U.S. view now that there is no deal?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: I don't think so, Jim. We heard from U.S. officials before that Israeli statement came out. So, it's hard. What we can't say that they were responding to the actual statement from the Israeli prime minister's office when they were saying that they're not going to characterize the deal that has been agreed to by Hamas and they're going to be in discussions with their partners -- of course, the Israelis, the Egyptians, and also the Qataris. [15:55:16]

But now that we have Israel coming forth and making this pronouncement, but also saying that they're going to be sending some mid-level folks to continue negotiations on this front, we'll have to watch and see what the U.S. assessment of the Hamas response actually is here.

Even though the Israelis are saying it wasn't the same as what they put on the table. It seems that the door hasn't been completely closed on negotiations going forward, so we're just going to have to watch and see what U.S. officials say in the coming hours really on this. It's noteworthy that the CIA Director Bill Burns is in Qatar right now and State Department and the White House were very clear to say that he is working on this in real time with those folks who are the mediators, the Egyptians, the Qataris, were speaking with Hamas and then, of course, with the Israelis as well -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: No question. And there, of course, as you well know, been so many false starts on these negotiations going back weeks.

Kylie Atwood at the State Department, thanks so much.

And thanks so much all of you for joining me today. I'm Jim Sciutto in New York today.

"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.