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U.S.-Israel Relations Tested After Biden's Warning to Israeli PM; Israeli Contender Enters Eurovision Finals Despite Boos and Protests; Brazil Grapples With Massive Deadly Floods; "World's Largest" Climate Pollution Vacuum Opens. Aired 2-2:45a ET

Aired May 10, 2024 - 02:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[02:00:00]

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JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to "CNN Newsroom", I'm John Vause, live in Atlanta, ahead this hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): If we need to stand alone, we will stand alone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: Digging in with a message from Israel's Prime Minister to the U.S. President. You're not the boss of me, and Israel doesn't need U.S. military assistance anyway.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You have a lot of experience making phony stories about sex appear to be real.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: Going low, the star witness at Donald Trump's criminal trial in New York, Stormy Daniels, cross-examined for hours as the defense tries to destroy her credibility.

And does it work? The giant vacuum sucking carbon out of the atmosphere, does carbon capture actually make a difference or could it be doing more harm than good?

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Live from Atlanta, this is "CNN Newsroom" with John Vause.

VAUSE: Well, the feud between the U.S. President and Israeli Prime Minister is once again playing out in real time and on full public display. If Joe Biden was hoping a threat to withhold some US weapons would force Israel to rethink plans for a major offensive on Rafah in southern Gaza, he should think again. A day after President Biden made that threat during an exclusive interview on CNN, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu appeared on the "Dr. Phil" show and strongly implied without those U.S. weapons, Israel would be defenseless. That claim is not true.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NETANYAHU: You can't talk about Israel's right of self-defense and then oppose Israel using it. You can't say we agree that Hamas has to be destroyed and then oppose Israel when it sets out to destroy Hamas. Are we going to succumb to the hypocrisy?

Are we going to basically remain defenseless and not destroy the Hamas terrorist army there? Because if we do not destroy them, if we leave them alone, they'll come back. They'll emerge from the tunnels, they'll take over Gaza again and they'll do what they promised to do. They said we'll do it, we'll do October 7th, this enormous massacre again and again and again. So we have no choice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: Netanyahu also said if necessary, Israel will stand alone and the Rafah offensive will continue as planned.

The Israeli military says it already has the hardware, weapons, ammunition and material needed to eliminate the last of the Hamas infrastructure and fighters holed up in southern Gaza. While some Israeli leaders have expressed shock over President Biden's public ultimatum, U.S. officials say it should not come as any surprise.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEW MILLER, U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON: There is no doubt that they understood what our policy was should they launch a Rafah operation or what our policy would be, I should say.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: With the Rafah operation continuing, U.S. officials say ceasefire negotiations are now on hold. Sources say Hamas is demanding Israel agree up front to an initial 12-week halt in fighting rather than six weeks as discussed earlier. And before any Israeli hostages are released, for Israel, that is a non-starter.

Whilst its military ramps up operations in Rafah, which it says are still limited, satellite imagery shows they've expanded to include ground operations. A large number of Palestinians are now fleeing the densely populated city, now home to more than a million people. A spokesperson for the UN Agency for Palestinian Refugees estimates 80,000 have left Rafah so far. The IDF says 150,000 Palestinians have evacuated to areas in eastern Rafah after receiving orders to evacuate earlier this week.

CNN's Paula Hancocks following all of this for us live this hour from Abu Dhabi. So when we get to this Israeli reaction, clearly there's a lot of politics in what Benjamin Netanyahu has been saying. So what else are we hearing from Israel? What's being not said publicly, I guess?

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, what we're hearing from other Israeli officials, both privately and publicly, is some anger, some frustration, and in some cases a feeling that the U.S. has abandoned Israel at a very critical moment in the war.

But we have heard defiance as well. We've heard from Yoav Galant, for example, the defense minister, saying that the Israeli forces will not be subdued. And we've also heard from the military that this won't actually impact anything on the ground, that they already have what they need if they were going to carry out this major ground offensive. Let's listen to the IDF spokesperson.

[02:04:58]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REAR ADM. DANIEL HAGARI, IDF SPOKESPERSON (through translator): The IDF has armaments for the missions it plans, and we also have enough weaponry to complete our mission in Rafah. I say this here in the context of everything that came up with the United States, and it is important to say it. The United States has helped us in an unprecedented manner since the start of the war.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HANCOCKS: And there has been significant security assistance from the U.S. to Israel since October 7th. There have been armed shipments as well. In fact, just in late April, there was a $26 billion security assistance package that was approved for Israel. But what the U.S. side -- what the White House feels at this point is that within part of this shipment, these 2,000 pound bombs, that is the problematic area.

These bombs, which really are not meant for dense urban fighting, when you consider that just one of those bombs creates a massive crater, and then there's deadly shrapnel which flies for hundreds of feet all around. So this is really the concern that they have. But as far as Israel is concerned, they say that they have what they need at this point, and they appear to be defiant. And the criticism, the threats don't appear to be swaying them at any point. John?

VAUSE: And one of the crucial elements here is what happens to the Palestinian civilians? There's 1.4 million people in a town that was originally 300,000. The Israelis have said they have a plan to get them to these safety zones to evacuate all of them if needed, I guess. So where does that stand right now? How many are being evacuated? How many are making it to these safety zones?

HANCOCKS: Well, the safety zone itself, John, is al-Mawassi. It's just along the coast of Gaza, and it's about 5 miles, maybe 8 or 9 kilometers away from eastern Rafah, for example.

But most of these people don't have transport. Fuel is scarce. Many are wounded. It's very difficult to be able to get to this area. And we've heard from UNRWA, the U.N. teams on the ground, that it's not ideal even when they do get there. They have called the conditions there inhumane and pointed out that they don't have the infrastructure to be able to cope with this sheer number of people.

I'm pointing out as well the hospitals in Rafah, one, al-Najjar, which is in eastern Rafah, has now had to close effectively. It's building a makeshift facility in the central part of the city. But they have said clearly that is going to be limited, and it was already limited when it was the full hospital in eastern Rafah. So for those people on the ground, it is a desperate situation.

It's a very fluid situation as well. UNRWA saying that they believe 80,000 have evacuated, the IDF saying 150,000 have evacuated. But we can see from satellite images that definitely there is less shelter there now. There are less tents. So people are trying to get out. John.

VAUSE: Paula, thank you. Former Jerusalem correspondent and in Abu Dhabi, this hour for us. Thank you.

Well, resupplies of humanitarian assistance in Gaza, already at critically low levels, will be delayed for a few more days. The U.S. is unable to deploy a floating pier system because of heavy seas in the eastern Mediterranean. Right now, that pier remains in the port of Ashdod in Israel. It was moved there last week for safety. Even once it is in place and operational, the U.S. is still working to finalize who will actually transport the aid from the ship to shore. The U.S. and the U.K. have both ruled out using their own troops over safety concerns.

The United Nations Agency for Palestinian Refugees is closing its east Jerusalem headquarters until security can be restored. The agency's chief says the compound was set on fire twice by Israeli extremists while staff were still inside. No casualties have been reported, but the outdoor areas were damaged. The agency's chief also adds this, that it's the latest in a string of violent incidents against his staff over the past two months.

The Eurovision Song Contest is usually a global kumbaya moment of unity, harmony and just a touch of weirdness. But now it's just another staging ground, it seems, for dueling protests over Israel's war with Hamas.

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Israeli singer Eden Galan has made it through to Saturday's grand final after her performance at Thursday's semi-final, a performance, though, not without controversy. Thousands of demonstrators in Malmo, Sweden, which is hosting this year's contest, came out in support of and against Israel being allowed to compete. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu acknowledged the protests and the surrounding controversy in his message of support to singer Eden Galan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NETANYAHU (through translator): Eden, I would like to wish you success. You know what? You have already succeeded. Because you are not only taking on Eurovision in a proud and very impressive manner, you are also contending successfully with an ugly wave of anti- Semitism and representing the State of Israel with enormous honor.

[02:10:06]

So may you be blessed with success and know that when they boo you, we are cheering you on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: Joining us now from Malmo, Sweden, is Michael Idato, Culture Editor-at-Large, when did I give you that title? Over "The Sydney Morning Herald" and "The Melbourne Age". It is good to see you, Michael. It's been way too long.

MICHAEL IDATO, CULTURE EDITOR-AT-LARGE, "SYDNEY MORNING HERALD" AND "MELBOURNE AGE": Good morning, John. Hi.

VAUSE: I'm well, thanks, mate. So when it comes to Eurovision, right, either you love it or you hate it, but you can't ignore it. So from here, just tell me, where does the controversy go over the Israeli participation? How does it play itself out from this point?

IDATO: Look, I think the thing that's going on here, obviously, is that Eurovision's preference is for an apolitical environment. That's kind of what they declare the contest to be. I think the reality is that any situation when you put almost 40 countries in one room, it's kind of naturally political. I think it's an inescapable part of this. And it certainly comes up much more frequently than it did perhaps 10, 20 or 30 years ago.

The other thing is that the event itself is considered kind of a tool of soft diplomacy. And I think when you're in the realm of soft diplomacy, anyone who's a practitioner of soft diplomacy will tell you that hard diplomacy does occasionally come knocking at your door. I think the reality is this protest is real.

The debate is ongoing. They're struggling to keep politics off the stage. And that may be all they can do. I think they certainly can't shut down the political discussion around the event, which is not what I think they're trying to do. I think their mission really is just to keep the stage about a music competition.

VAUSE: Contain it and get through Saturday and then be done with it all, I guess.

IDATO: That's it. I mean, come back next year.

VAUSE: The running order for the grand final was published or posted online just a few hours ago. Sweden will be the opening act. Notably, Israel is at number six, just ahead of the Netherlands. And then literally moments after that list was on Instagram came the comments after the Netherlands. We have toilet break.

Then a few comments after that one. Please vote for Croatia. This is the only hope that Israel does not win. I don't think anyone wants that. It's all pretty tame, you know, in the most part. But, you know, it seems like the big controversy is over Ukraine appearing as the second act and Croatia way down at 23.

So I'm just wondering, do these things sort of ebb and flow? It's the controversy of the moment and people just move on.

IDATO: Look, I think that I mean, you know, that sort of running list is considered kind of super important. In actual fact, coming quite early in the running order of Eurovision is strategically not great. I think the history kind of the historical or the traditional strategy is that you kind of want your country to perform as close to the end of the show and the opening the vote as possible, because I think the idea is that, you know, your country is kind of fresh in the memory of people who are voting.

It's look, yeah, it's kind of a weird dynamic to some extent. This is all kind of going on in a bubble. It's very difficult to punch it because you have this. The arena is sort of on the edge of Malmo. The protests are in the center of the city. Most of the delegations from the various Eurovision countries are staying in hotels, but in large groups. I'm in a hotel with 17 delegations in the one hotel and security checkpoints at reception.

And kind of, you know, so it's sort of to the degree to which that outside conversation punches through is kind of hard to measure. I think what's going on is there are two distinct conversations. I think on social media, you kind of have this volatile group of Eurovision fans who are making really specific comments like the comments that you're quoting.

I don't think that the protest is in the center of the city, who are kind of driving a more general political message, are kind of having those conversations. I think the protests in the city are very much driven by capitalizing on the audience. This is a television event with approximately 160 million viewers worldwide.

And I think, you know, their thinking or their strategy is to kind of take their protest, their narrative or the message they're trying to kind of bring forward and put it in the sort of in the most exposed space that they can place it, which is obviously what they're doing.

VAUSE: You mentioned this, that the event organizers try to portray all this as being apolitical, which is why Al Jazeera reported in February the European Broadcasting Union, EBU, rejected Israel's entry, a song called October Rain, on the grounds that it referenced the victims of October 7 Hamas attack on southern Israel and was therefore too political.

And, you know, this is the thing, the reality over the years would appear to be quite the opposite. I mean, certainly during the 90s, when all the former Soviet republics were gaining independence and joining Eurovision, that was sort of like a big political moment in many ways. Russia was banned a couple of years ago. Turkey's been banned. Greece boycotted. I mean, it's been a place for protest and political controversy since the get go. [02:14:57]

IDATO: It kind of has. And look, the thing is, you know, when you look at the history of Eurovision, it was created after the Second World War when hilariously coaxial cable, which is very antique technology now, was laid across Europe and they wanted to create something to kind of capitalize on this new tech that they had. Then the song contest was seen as a kind of opportunity to kind of create a harmonious environment in the aftermath of war.

I think the kind of inconsistency that we're kind of grappling with right now is Eurovision's focus is on the stage. Their position is we can control the song. We can control the lyrics. We can, you know, we can create barriers to stop political messaging being used in that way.

The challenge they have is you're quite right. Historically, it's incredibly inconsistently applied. You know, Russia obviously was asked not to participate in the wake of what happened is happening in the Ukraine. Belarus was expelled in the same year because there was a perception that a lot of this is driven by national broadcasters. There was a perception that Belarus' national broadcaster was not reporting that war objectively.

So, you know, they make these decisions and that brings politics to their door. I think they're sort of they're not in a really winnable situation. I think it's kind of -- it's kind of no win for them if they do nothing. To expel Israel would have been an overtly political act. To let them stay in the competition has been seen as an overtly political act.

And so I think their position is it's kind of lose, lose. And they're trying to navigate it as best they can. I mean, in this in the arena last night, there was there was booing. I mean, these are ticketed guests who have purchased tickets to come in and watch the Eurovision semifinals and final. And when, you know, Israel took to the stage, there was a lot of applause, but there was booing. There was free Palestine chanting. So, you know, there's a lot. I think they're just kind of I suspect, you know, trying to just to get through this song contest and, you know, and kind of look forward.

VAUSE: Yeah. The cheering, the jeering and the booing. I mean, just not cool people. Not very cool at all. You have a protest by all means. But, you know, let the performers perform. Michael Idato. So good to see you. Thank you for your time.

IDATO: Nice to see you, John.

VAUSE: And yeah, nice to see you. It's been a while. Take care.

After the break, adult film star Stormy Daniels giving as good as she gets during a grueling cross-examination by Trump's lawyers at his hush money trial in New York.

Also, the FBI keeps an eye out for potential election interference from Moscow. But U.S. officials believe the Kremlin is more likely to ramp up its political influence game.

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VAUSE: The conditions of Donald Trump's gag order do not cover criticizing the judge overseeing his criminal trial in New York. And so he did on day 14, accusing Judge Merchan of corruption after he dismissed a defense motion for a mistrial, as well as refusing to amend Trump's gag order to allow him to make public remarks about the star witness Stormy Daniels, which must be like utter torture for Trump after the adult film star finished days of damning testimony.

CNN's Kara Scannell has more.

[02:20:03]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCANNELL (voice-over): Back on the stand, Stormy Daniels, the adult film star at the center of former President Donald Trump's hush money case.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: I think you'll see some very revealing things today.

SCANNELL (voice-over): Trump's lawyer Susan Necheles spent over two hours attacking Daniels' credibility during Thursday morning's cross- examination.

Necheles pointed to Daniels' history of making pornographic films, saying, you have a lot of experience making phony stories about sex appear to be real. Daniels responded, wow, that's not how I would put it. The sex in the films is very much real, just like what happened to me in that room. Referring to her alleged sexual encounter with Trump, which he denies.

Daniels previously testified that the night of their alleged affair, she felt faint while she saw Trump posing on the bed in his t-shirt and boxers. Necheles questioned why that scene would be so upsetting since she appeared in about 150 sex films.

Daniels testified it was because she was not expecting a man twice her age to be naked. Necheles argued Daniels gained publicity from her story and media appearances, like her interview on "60 Minutes".

ANDERSON COOPER, "60 MINUTES" CORRESPONDENT: And you had sex with him?

STORMY DANIELS, PORNSTAR WHO ALLEGES AFFAIR WITH DONALD TRUMP: Yes.

COOPER: You were 27, he was 60. Were you physically attracted to him?

DANIELS: No.

SCANNELL (voice-over): And she argued Daniels profited it off the alleged affair, pointing to a book deal and documentary, Daniels selling her gear on her website like hashtag Team Stormy T-shirts, and going on a strip club tour called Making America Horny Again, a name which Daniels testified she fought tooth and nail against.

Asked if she celebrated Trump's indictment by selling merchandise like her Saint of Indictments candle, Daniels retorted, not unlike Mr. Trump. Trump's lawyer, trying to find inconsistencies in her story, pressed Daniels about her dinner with Trump.

COOPER: Did you two go out for dinner that night?

DANIELS: No.

COOPER: You had dinner in the room?

DANIELS: Yes.

SCANNELL (voice-over): Necheles said Daniels changed her story. On Tuesday, Daniels testified they did not have dinner. Daniels defended herself, saying just because they met for dinner does not mean they ate, saying, I've maintained that I didn't see any food. It was dinner, but we never got food. The two also went back and forth about an old tweet Daniels sent that said she is, quote, "the best person to flush the orange turd down".

Necheles argued the tweet meant she'd be instrumental in putting Trump in jail. Daniels disagreed, saying, I don't see instrumental or jail anywhere in that. You're putting words in my mouth.

Also on the stand, Trump's former White House assistant, Madeleine Westerhout, whose desk was right outside the Oval Office. The jury reviewed a contact list of people Trump spoke most to, which was sent to Westerhout that included Cohen, tabloid executive David Pecker, among others.

Westerhout testified about an email confirming a February 2017 meeting between Trump and Cohen in the Oval Office. Prosecutors allege Cohen and Trump worked out the reimbursement for the hush money payment at the crux of the case in the Oval Office that month. She also confirmed that in her experience, Trump liked to read things before signing them. Westerhout explained that checks were regularly sent about twice a month from the Trump organization to Washington. She described bringing them in for Trump to sign and would then FedEx them back to the company.

Kara Scannell, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Still ahead here on CNN, friends for decades now at odds over the war in Gaza. The fraught relationship between U.S. President Joe Biden and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

Also ahead, how a giant vacuum is helping suck thousands of tons of planet heating pollution from the atmosphere. That's ahead.

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[02:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VAUSE: Welcome back to our viewers all around the world. I'm John Vause and you're watching "CNN Newsroom".

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN THUNE (R-SD): The problem with what's happening with the Biden administration today is not only does it force people to question our reliability as an ally, it puts Israel's national security interests at risk.

SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): Well, this will not embolden Hamas in any way. What it will do is make it clear that, you know, as you go after Hamas, don't create more civilian casualties.

SEN. TOM COTTON (R-AK): Joe Biden's de facto position is for a Hamas victory over Israel.

ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): The president has made clear by his actions that all U.S. military aid is conditioned. In this case, Prime Minister Netanyahu has created a humanitarian disaster and he will be held accountable for that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: There was a reaction there from a cross-section of lawmakers on Capitol Hill to Biden's decision to issue this ultimatum to Israel to withhold U.S. weapons if that offensive on Rafah continues. It shows that support for Israel is not unlimited, especially when it comes to this conflict and the wider security interests and ethical concerns.

The relationship between Benjamin Netanyahu and Joe Biden goes back decades, though, long before they were leaders of their respective countries. Like most relationships, there have been good times and some not so good times.

During his interview with "Dr. Phil", the Israeli prime minister said he's hoping they can both move on and at some point put the current tension behind them.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

BIDEN: I've known Joe Biden for many years, 40 years and more. You know, we often had our agreements, but we've had our disagreements. We've been able to overcome them. I hope we can overcome them now, but we will do what we have to do to protect our country. And that means protect our future. And that means we will defeat Hamas, including in Rafah. We have no other choice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CNN's Oren Liebermann has a closer look now at this longstanding relationship between these two men.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ORNE LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An airtight embrace between world leaders in the days after October 7th has given way to barely contained anger, a personal and political fight decades in the making. President Joe Biden has more than 50 years of history with Israel, dating back to 1973.

BIDEN: I've worked with every prime minister of Israel from Golda Meir right through to the present prime minister.

LIEBERMANN (voice-over): He first met Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in the 80s. Biden, a young senator on the Foreign Relations Committee.

BIDEN: Were there not an Israel, the United States of America would have to invent an Israel.

LIEBERMANN (voice-over): Israel's longest serving leader, then working at the embassy in D.C. The relationship has more often than not had some friction.

BIDEN: I signed a picture a long time for Bibi. He's been a friend for over 30 years. I said, Bibi, I don't agree with the damn thing you say, but I love you. But we really are good friends.

LIEBERMANN (voice-over): Biden has long been seen as a pro-Israel Democrat. He surged aid to Israel after October 7th and signed off on Congress' supplemental designating $14 billion for Israel. Under President Barack Obama, Biden was seen as an asset, able to work with Netanyahu. But the tension between Biden and Netanyahu burst into the open last year when Netanyahu tried to push through a major judicial overhaul.

BIDEN: Like many strong supporters of Israel, I'm very concerned. And I'm concerned that they get this straight. They cannot continue to on this road.

LIEBERMANN (voice-over): Even so, never before has it spilled over like this.

BIDEN: I've made it clear to Bibi and the War Cabinet. They're not going to get our support if, in fact, they go in these population centers.

LIEBERMANN (voice-over): In an exclusive interview with Erin Burnett, Biden said the U.S. would not supply bombs to Israel if it invaded Rafah, where more than a million Palestinians have sought refuge.

BIDEN: We're not walking away from Israel's security. We're walking away from Israel's ability to wage war in those areas.

LIEBERMANN (voice-over): Biden has grown increasingly frustrated with Netanyahu, telling his advisers that the Israeli leader is ignoring his advice. The relationship may be beyond repair.

[02:30:03] ALON PINKAS, FORMER ISRAELI CONSUL-GENERAL: It can't get better as long as Mr. Netanyahu was in power. What may happen is that these differences could be mitigated, alleviated, but that would be only a temporary relief.

LIEBERMANN: Seven months into the war, the U.S. openly opposes an Israeli ground invasion of Rafah, one Netanyahu promises is still coming.

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): If we need to stand alone, we will stand alone. I have said that if necessary, we will fight with our fingernails.

LIEBERMANN: The short statement posted on social media didn't mention Biden, but it didn't need to.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIEBERMANN (on camera): In comments made to American talk show host Dr. Phil, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Thursday that he's known Joe Biden for more than 40 years. They have their agreements and they have their disagreements and you optimism that they would get through these disagreements as well.

So it seems when it comes directly to talking about Biden, Netanyahu who chooses his words carefully and tries to highlight the length in the history of that relationship.

Oren Liebermann, CNN, in Washington.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR: You're watching CNN. We'll take a short break. Back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VAUSE: In Brazil's flooding, 134 people are still missing in Brazil's Rio Grande do Sul, and on Thursday, officials reported more than 100 had died since last week due to heavy rains, as well as floods.

Storms have impacted nearly 1-1/2 million people leaving thousands displaced in hundreds injured and more rain could actually be on the way.

CNN's Dario Klein reports now from Brazil.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DARIO KLEIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Behind me, you guys sea route BR101. This is almost the only way you can get to Rio Grande do Sul, the ground zero, the disaster zone that has been flooded almost entirely on where most 1-1/2 million people has been affected because of this flood.

And in this road, you can see mainly people going out of Rio Grande do Sul, but those also some people going in, journalists like us, that we are trying to get there. But you can only see these trucks, these type of truck, this is normal people, regular people we spoke with them, that they are taking supplies for the people in Porto Alegre. They're taking mainly water, food, clothes, and they're taking all types of things that it's been needed there where more than 100,000 people is living in shelters going out of their homes and all their jobs, their commerce, their stores are being affected because of the water.

The government also is taking -- the army is taking their supplies there, and we'll see what we find when we get there. We hope to get there before it gets night. There's a forecast of more rain for today, tomorrow, until the weekend. And that is why the authorities are saying to people to stay, not to go back still to their homes to find whatever still is left of their homes in Rio Grande do Sul.

[02:35:12]

Dario Klein from Santa Catarina, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Okay. Now to a story from yesterday's program, you may recall the horse stranded on a roof amid rising floodwaters. So, Sao Paolo's military has rescued the horse which had been trapped there for four days. They sedated the horse before he was put on a boat or rescue, and one of more than 2,000 animals which have been reportedly saved from the rising water.

The world's largest carbon capture operation is now online in Iceland. Mammoth is the second biggest vacuum made by Swiss company Climeworks. It sounds simple in theory, the vacuum captures carbon from the atmosphere and then Climeworks plans to permanently lock the carbon underground.

Climate scientists say right now, carbon capture removes only a small fraction of what's actually needed to reach global climate goals, but they do know it could be an important step.

Jan Wurzbacher is the COO and CEO of Climeworks. He is in Zurich, Switzerland, this hour.

Thank you for getting up early, relatively early. Thank you for being with us.

JAN WURZBACHER, CO-CEO, CLIMEWORKS: Good morning. Thank you for having us.

VAUSE: So just explain to us exactly how this works. Will it be -- you know, how much carbon will this gigantic vacuum suck out of the atmosphere annually?

WURZBACHER: So once full up and running, the plant will have an annual nameplate capacity of 36,000 tons of CO2 that can be captured from the air every year.

VAUSE: Okay, so because the plant itself produces what, 36 tons of carbon to operate, is that correct? WURZBACHER: Notes about those of 36,000 tons of carbon can be captured from the atmosphere every year and the emissions that are produced from the planned are about less than ten and percent of that though its very small fraction of that.

VAUSE: I guess. So, yeah. So 36 times. So it pays for itself will get reaches a point of break-even point fairly early on in the process, right?

WURZBACHER: Exactly.

VAUSE: Okay. So, the problem is that what climate scientists are saying is that this is great, but can it be scaled up to a point where it can actually have some real impact on what needs to be done.

WURZBACHER: That's exactly the path we are on at Climeworks.

So we found out that company 15 years ago and scaled up our operations from grams to kilograms to tons to thousands of tons. And over the past couple for years, every three years, we've scaled up our capacity by at least a factor of ten. And going ahead with that speed by 2030 will be at the scale of capturing millions of tons of CO2 from the air every year, and then being on the path towards 2050 to come to gigaton scale carbon removal that means removing billions of tons of CO2 from the air every year.

So if we look at other industries like solar PV or wind industry, those are about the same scaling rates that those industries have proven to be viable. And if we can replicate that by middle of the century, this technology can remove carbon dioxide from the air at climate relevant scales. So, removing billions of tons of CO2 from the atmosphere. And this is what climate science tells us, is needed to keep global warming within reasonable limits.

VAUSE: Right now, though, there are other operations out there, one of them in Texas. It's headed actually by an oil company and a climate expert wrote this, the only people purchasing Climeworks removals at this point, a very wealthy individuals or very wealthy companies that are paying a lot of money to bring down the cost of what they see as a potential future industry.

So, is there a concern here that the carbon capture is being exploited by the rich who can afford it, they can reuse it in manipulated, it's not actually being used as intended?

WURZBACHER: Well, I actually see if the other way around. Every young technology needs a certain time to scale up, right? You need a certain amount of time until they technology reads the cost levels so it can be rolled out at a large scale at lower costs. And this is exactly what we are on.

So were on a steep cost reduction trajectory and every other year, we are introducing a new generation of our technology with reduced costs, reduce energy consumption, reducing both operational costs and CapEx. And that's what we're doing now. And the initial phase is what actually happens right now, that is what this industry needs. So we are currently selling the capacity of our plans, by the way, not

mainly to individuals, but mainly to corporates who have set themselves strong targets for carbon reduction becoming net negative or a net-zero or even net negative and those customers who are initial -- initially subscribing to the capacity of our plans, they help us scaling the technology further developing new technology which makes it more and more cost-effective, and then rolling it out at larger scale, which can then be used by many more people and many more corporates and even by governments as the costs go down.

[02:40:18]

VAUSE: Very quickly, just finished up here. In terms of the process, what is the most difficult part is actually getting the carbon emissions out of the atmosphere, or is it storing them? Is that the capturing part, storing them in some kind of rock forms so they can stay on the ground and not affect the planet for hopefully decades and generations to come.

WURZBACHER: So the good news here is that storing CO2 underground globally is not the bottleneck. There is way more available storage space than we would ever be able to capture carbon from the air over the next hundreds of years. That's good though, storage space need to be -- need to be developed that's what we are on.

Then, the more tricky part is capturing the CO2 from the air at large scale at lower cost. So this is what requires a lot of development, a lot of scale up. This is what we're doing as we speak.

VAUSE: Jan Wurzbacher in Zurich, Switzerland, of Climeworks. Thank you for being with us, sir. We wish you the best luck. It's a lot of people don't realize we only carbon neutral. We need to be carbon negative. And I guess this would be one way to get there, I hope.

Thank you, sir.

WURZBACHER: Thank you very much.

VAUSE: Well, yes, my precious, they put s is on the prompter.

Exciting use for fans of the hobbit and "Lord of the Rings".

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VAUSE: Two new movies based on characters by J.R. Tolkien in the works. The first one is tentatively titled "Lord of the Rings: The Hunt for Gollum" reunites the original team behind the nearly $6 billion original franchise, including director Peter Jackson. (INAUDIBLE) is just yet, the first film isn't scheduled to hit theaters until 2026.

With that, thank you for watching CNN NEWSROOM. It's been a great three hours having you with me for all nor three hours and 45 minutes.

"WORLD SPORT" is next. I'll see you next week. Bye.

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