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CNN International: Now: Michael Cohen Cross-Examined In Trump Trial; Blinken: U.S. Support For Ukraine Has Never Wavered; Biden Ramps Up Tariffs On Chinese Imports; Trump Allies Flock To New York Courthouse To Defend Trump. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired May 14, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:31]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: It is 8:00 p.m. in London, 10:00 p.m. in Kyiv, 3:00 a.m. in Beijing, 3:00 p.m. here in Washington.

I'm Jim Sciutto. Thanks so much for joining me today on CNN NEWSROOM. And let's get right to the news.

Key witness Michael Cohen has returned to the stand for a second day in Donald Trump's criminal hush money trial. Cross-examination has just begun after a lengthily and revelatory direct questioning by the prosecution. Trump's fixer and lawyer for a decade, Cohen testified about the details and Trump's specific knowledge of the reimbursement plan and false invoices that are at the heart of this case.

The FBI raid on Cohen's apartment in 2018 was he said the beginning of the end of his long-term personal relationship with Trump. Cohen said he then made the decision to quote, not lie for President Trump any longer after his family questioned Cohen as to why you remain loyal.

Earlier, a New York appeals court rejected Trump's challenge to the gag order issued by Judge Juan Merchan. At the start of this case, that gag order -- gag order prevents him from attacking witnesses such as Cohen.

CNN justice correspondent Jessica Schneider joins me now.

Jessica, this cross-examination still underway, started in a rather pointed way. One might say an extremely personal way in terms of the way defense lawyers are going after Cohen.

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: It was actually sort of surprising. The first question from Todd Blanche said to Michael Cohen, you attacked me on TikTok, didn't you? And you called me a piece of expletives.

SCIUTTO: This is not -- this is not a high school locker room conversation. It's a courtroom.

SCHNEIDER: Yeah, it was a very strange way to start the cross- examination. And as we're seeing from our reporters in the courtroom, this cross exam is sort of all over the place. You know, prosecutors are really hammering home probably the biggest takeaway is that they're saying you don't like Donald Trump, right? You want him in jail, right? You've posted pictures of him behind bars, or, you know, cartoon characters that he's had on t-shirts.

So there really -- it doesn't seem to strategic so far. They seem to be kind of all over the place, but I guess the overall takeaway is that they want the jury to know how much Michael Cohen doesn't like Donald Trump, wants retribution perhaps for Donald Trump. And even doesn't like Donald Trump's legal team.

So they are just going at it that way. You know, now, they're talking about how Michael Cohen actually still lives in a building with the Trump name on it in New York City. He's talked about how he owns two apartments, how he's long lived in these Trump buildings.

So like I said, it's a little bit scattershot the way the cross- examine is going about. But maybe they're just trying to do everything they can to just show every bad aspect, perhaps of Cohen's personality.

SCIUTTO: To help attack his credibility in effect.

Now the prosecution aware of this being an issue, they tried to insulate him by addressing it directly. And Cohen said, he said, I regret doing things for him that I should not have, including lying.

How much time did the prosecution spend on attempting to just get them to cop to previous lives but then say I'm no longer lying in effect?

SCHNEIDER: Yeah. I mean, they spent a considerable amount of time talking about why he pleaded guilty to those several federal crimes, including lying to Congress. So they did focus in on his criminal record. They talked about the books he's written in a sense, profiting off of this relationship with Donald Trump, and then the fallout from the ending of the relationship with Donald Trump.

So, yes, prosecutors have gotten most of that already out there and now the defense is going to just hammer it home to see how much of Cohen's credibility they can chip away at to cast that doubt in the jury's minds.

SCIUTTO: Well, listen, we should know that one thing he pleaded guilty to, right, was making a payment to influence the 2016 election, the payment we're talking about here, the essence of this case.

Jessica Schneider, thanks so much.

All right. Joining me now to break down the legal aspects of today's testimony, criminal defense attorney Janet Johnson, and defense and trial attorney Misty Marris.

Good to have you both.

Janet, if I could begin with you on the defense strategy here in cross-examination to go after Cohen, we knew they were going to go after his credibility, previous instances of lying, but they're going after Cohen, the man here in a quite aggressive fashion. And I wonder if you think that is a potentially successful strategy for defense attorneys.

JANET JOHNSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yeah, Jim, I don't think this is how I would have started to come right out of the box and talk about basically yourself as a defense attorney, you attacked me.

[15:05:06]

You know, he's kind of getting himself in the same level as Cohen and I you just don't see it that helps his client. There's so much they could attack him on and just start up by saying, you called me this.

SCIUTTO: Right.

JOHNSON: I just don't see it that helps him and it feels like the defense was so amped up for a fight that they came out a little too aggressive and I sometimes you feel like as a trial attorney, you'll grab their attention by swearing the jurors sit up and take notice.

But I think it actually turns them off and they have so much to attack him on. There's no reason to have this locker room fight, as you said.

SCIUTTO: Are reporters inside the courtroom, Misty Marris, have said that Cohen has stayed composed, answering questions, calmly. Maggie Haberman described it as metronomic in his answers here. Could this be a strategic attempt by defense attorneys to break that? In other words, to get the witness to get as angry as the defense attorney?

MISTY MARRIS, DEFENSE AND TRIAL ATTORNEY: Yeah. You know, it's twofold because a part of it is that Cohen is known to have these outbursts and to get rattled at some points. So of course, Donald Trump knows him very, very well. So his attorneys are going to capitalize on that and perhaps get a reaction out of him that's going to look very negative to the jury.

And the other piece of this is really getting into these TikTok. So there its reason why prosecutor said stop it, please do not post anything more, Michael Cohen, because they reflect his mindset at the time the trial is going on. So I do think the defense attorneys are bringing these out the gate, the picture of Michael Cohen with Trump behind bars and all of this, just to kind of set the stage page to say, look, this guy will say whatever he needs to say, you've seen his track record and this is his mentality at home. He might be bringing into the courtroom. So that's where I think the defense is going.

SCIUTTO: Understood. So, Janet, let's talk about how the prosecution handled questions about Cohen's credibility during their direct examination. I want to show on the screen one quote from Cohen in which he expresses regret for his past actions, including lying for Trump.

He said: I regret doing things for him that I should not have lying, bullying people in order to effectuate a goal. I don't regret working with the Trump Organization -- notably, he said that. As I expressed before, some very interesting, great times. But to keep the loyalty and to do the things that he asked me to do. I violated my moral compass and I suffered the penalty as has my family. Of course, the penalty being he went to jail.

I wonder if you think, Janet, that that was enough to address those credibility issues. And is that the kind of thing that juries understand saying, okay, I get it. He's saying I made mistakes in the past. I went to jail for it now, I'm trying to make good.

JOHNSON: Yeah, I don't think it's a mea culpa that covers everything. I mean, the jury may think we're not sure your moral compass is intact really, but his wife is in the courtroom, unlike we talked about Trump's wife was not there when they were talking about whether he was upset about, you know, her finding out about the affair.

So when he refers to his family and letting them down, and essentially, they were in the dark about a lot of this and then confronted him and said, why are you still loyal to this guy that is effective, I think. And then I suspect the prosecution probably said to him, you know, you shouldn't sound like the whole thing was a complete waste.

But I actually think Misty made up the made that point that they were talking about how he wasn't listening to the prosecutors commands I think that that's again a good thing for the prosecution. He is not their guy. He's not listening to them. They're not controlling him. He's not a puppet.

I think that makes him more credible. And then they have the documents to backup what he's saying. I don't think it's all to their bad news that he is a little bit of a wing nut.

SCIUTTO: And to your point, they laid a lot of this groundwork or at least attempted to the prosecution did prior to this the testimony from David Pecker, the checks and so on showing the payments to lay out a case so that it wasn't entirely dependent on Michael Cohen.

It's interesting, Misty Marris, that Cohen said, he decided to stop lying for Trump that the moment of truth for him was what was one they asked them, I said, why are you loyal to him and he kind of had a suppose of a eureka moment to some degree and said, yeah, why -- why am I doing this?

I wonder if that explanation of the change of heart is the kind of thing and your experience that the juries can understand as well, because, listen, in cases like this, I imagine you're going to bring imperfect people to the stand, right? Particularly folks if they were involved in the alleged crime that you're talking about?

MARRIS; Absolutely happens anytime you have a conspiracy case, you've got someone with some dirty hands and I think that the jury needs to hear the why and that's why the prosecutors brought that out. They need an explanation as to why somebody would not apart or refuse to engage with prosecutors, not cooperate and all of the things that lead heat up to the eureka moment when his wife says, what are you doing?

[15:10:05] The jurors need to feel that. They need to understand why somebody would take those actions in order to deem them credible. So prosecutors did a great job of laying that out.

And to your point, Jim, they set the table with the other witnesses, hoping that Michael Cohen's testimony would be corroborated by other witnesses, so they wouldn't have to 100 percent rely on just his word.

SCIUTTO: The defense strikes me, Janet Johnson, are going after Cohen's credibility in a similar way that they went after Stormy Daniels and that is to say, you're in it for the money in effect, you've got these podcast, you've got these books, you're attacking the president or the way they said it was Stormy Daniels, you publicize this story because it helps you do business.

I mean, is that -- is that an effective way? Has that been an effective way in terms of undermining the credibility or establishing some other intent in effect for those two key witnesses?

That's to you, Janet.

MARRIS: Well, maybe, I don't know, Jim, can you hear her?

SCIUTTO: We might -- we might have lost Janet so Misty, I'll ask you the same question if you were listening.

MARRIS: Yes, absolutely, of course. I was listening.

Well, yeah, so it's absolutely important because the credibility truly is the key here, especially when it comes to Michael Cohen. And so when we're talking about the Stormy Daniels cross-examination, that was obviously quite contentious because there was a lot of public information out there that could directly refute some of her testimony. So I think were going to see a very, very similar pattern here.

Right now, we're talking about the general credibility issues. He's been a liar. He's lied before. He lies to save his own skin, he lies for furtherance of his own interests. Why should you believe him?

But then we're going to see a more pointed type of cross examination, taking the specifics of what he said in his direct testimony, and likely public statements or other information evidence that could that could refute that, because remember, defense, they just want to raise reasonable doubt is a different analysis than the prosecutors who need to prove their case.

SCIUTTO: Different standard, no question.

Finally, we learned today about where we stand in this case into the prosecution said Cohen's their last witness and defense I believe said they will not call any witnesses, expect their cross-examination of Cohen and continue into Thursday could be done. And into closing arguments by next week, how quickly do you see this wrapping up? I mean, could a jury be deliberating next week even perhaps issue a decision next week? MARRIS: Yeah. I think the jury could potentially be deliberating next

week. We, of course, have closing arguments. That's very significant.

But, Jim, there is something here I'm going to say it right now because they I think its going to be the most important issue in this case, and it's the jury instructions. They are important in every case. But the way that this is framed, because we have a complicated -- complicated kind of pastor statute in order to get to criminal culpability.

I think this case really rises and falls on what the jury needs to analyze two see if the prosecution proves their case. So I expect a lot of behind the scenes, brawling between the two sides to get those jury instructions and fighting about what those standards are actually going to be in a case of first impression.

SCIUTTO: It's a good point.

Misty Marris, also to Janet Johnson, lost before the audio issues, but we're going to follow up on these questions.

Still to come this hour, as Russia continues, a renewed military push inside Ukraine, the urgent plea from Kyiv, in particular for more air defenses. We're going to have details on that Russian push. And those continued demand. That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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SCIUTTO: Welcome back.

You are not alone. That is the message U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken delivered in Kyiv today where he reaffirmed the United States support for Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: Our joint task is to secure Ukraine sustained and permanent strategic advantage, so that Ukraine can not only deliver on the battlefield today but deter and defend against future attacks. As President Biden said, we want Ukraine to win and we're committed to helping you do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: This was, of course, a surprise trip to Kyiv by the secretary of state. Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, says, Ukraine still desperately needs more air defenses as Russia continues to pummel the north and continues a push into northeastern Ukraine on the ground.

Joining me now for more, CNN's Fred Pleitgen.

Fred, this visit comes at quite a precarious moment for Ukraine. This is the biggest Russian push and with some success in territorial gains that we've seen in some time there. What is the progress of the Russian advance?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think this push is significant in many ways, Jim. On the one hand, you're absolutely right. It is one that has gone fairly deep into Ukrainian territory. The Ukrainians are saying that it's a couple of villages close to the front line, but they do say that is actually a couple of miles into Ukrainian territory, and, of course, not far from the border with Russia. In fact, only about 20 25 miles from the border in Russia, you'll find the city of Kharkiv, which is actually Ukraine's second largest city, and a place that the Russians have wanted to take several times during this war. So that alone makes all this very significant.

The Russians, also with all this apparently trying to stretch the Ukrainians in other areas, Jim, where they're making the Ukrainians re-deploy sum of the forces that they have defending the east of the country, now having to move them to the northeast to try and defend that territory there. But one of the things that definitely stood out today in that meeting between Volodymyr Zelenskyy and the secretary of state in Kyiv was the fact that the Ukrainians kept talking about air defense systems and specifically talking about the Patriot air defense system.

In fact, the Ukrainian president said that the Ukrainians essentially need two of them just for the Kharkiv region, that's because one of the things that is happening there and happening in some other areas in the front line is that the Russians are just much more effective at using their air force now because they've been managed, they have managed to outfit some of their old unguided Soviet era bombs with cheap guidance kits that also have wings on them, making them fly further. And the Ukrainian say that the Patriots are the only thing that can either keep those jets away or shoot them down.

So, for the Ukrainian forces that right now are getting pounded by bombs that in some cases weigh half a ton. They say that's something that they need badly.

SCIUTTO: No question. And we can see the effects on the ground in those cities.

Fred Pleitgen, thanks so much.

So, for more on this, I'm joined by retired Air Force colonel and CNN military analyst Cedric Leighton.

Good to have you.

I wonder how concerned you are as you watch Russian forces advanced here, do they have the capability? Do they have the numbers to break through those Ukrainian defensive lines?

CEDRIC LEIGHTON, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, it depends on where you're looking, Jim, but I think the key thing is yes, I am concerned because the Russians have not been able to do something like this for a long time.

[15:20:01]

They have not had the logistical capabilities. They've not had the ability to move their forces and maneuver them in a way that would be consistent with an offensive operation that was since basically were talking February of 2022, when they started the invasion. But basically we've ended up with a war of attrition, but this has now changed because of the fact that we've had such a limited supply of weapons and munitions going to Ukraine over the past six, seven masks and that really had a major impact, major negative impact on the Ukrainian forces.

SCIUTTO: We're seeing the effects now. We're seeing the Russian forces take advantage of that long delay. This also is a situation where Russia has an advantage because they could strike inside Ukraine. They could fire into Ukraine from Russian territory, quite close to Kharkiv. But Ukrainian still have to operate under these restrictions where they can't use U.S.-supplied weapons to strike inside Russia. So they're at a disadvantage.

Should the U.S. change that restriction in these circumstances?

LEIGHTON: I think in these circumstances they should definitely look at it is in particular when you're looking at the kind of standoff weapons that the Russians are using. Those weapons can be fired from platforms that are flying over the Caspian Sea, for example. Now, it would be quite spectacular if the Ukrainians were able to blow up aid in aircraft that is flying over the Caspian Sea.

But that should be something that should be considered because those weapons are being used against Ukraine, those Russian weapons, and because of that, Ukraine would have every right to go after those weapons under international law. So those restrictions are actually artificial restrictions at the U.S. and NATO have in placed on the Ukrainians and that becomes a real factor in terms of their ability to prosecute the war effort to their advantage.

SCIUTTO: Long expected, long desired F16s are going to come at some point perhaps in the next several weeks. Would they come in numbers and would they have the capabilities to reverse that advantage, including striking stand off weapons? Under current restrictions, no.

LEIGHTON: Right, under current institutions, they couldn't do that. But, Jim, the key thing with the F16s is the way it seems right now, the way people are talking about this is that they're going to be coming in numbers that are too small to really make an immediate difference. So that's actually not a good thing for the Ukrainians. It is going to provide them with the F16s, will provide them with a tactical advantage, as long as the Ukrainian pilots understand the use of techniques that are called suppression of enemy air defenses.

That kind of technique is going to be essential because of the Russian advantage in electronic warfare, right?

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

LEIGHTON: And the F16s that the Ukrainians are getting are probably the ones that are not outfitted with the most modern electronic warfare equipment. So that's going to make a difference.

SCIUTTO: There's been so much analysis now for months really about the slowness of certain weapons systems and restrictions on certain weapons systems and, and debate and delays over well, we can't send that one. Oh, maybe we'll send that one. We can't send that one. It's too capable, too long range. We will send it.

Has this administration moved at all? I mean, they've clearly moved because they sent these weapons systems. But after delays, I mean, given what were seeing now, particularly with these restrictions against firing inside Russian territory, having an impact on the battlefield, do you sense this administration relaxing to some degree and say we actually we have to adjust. We have to just here to help Ukraine push this back.

LEIGHTON: Yeah, I do sense them relaxing the original restrictions. I mean, let's remember, we when we talked about F16s going to Ukraine at first, something that was absolutely forbidden.

SCIUTTO: But after a long time is the issue.

LEIGHTON: Yeah, that's the problem. I think the administration has its heart probably in the right place when it comes to Ukraine. But the problem is, is that they're not moving fast enough. And they have to understand that the dynamics of the battlefield or such that yes, there's a Russian threat out there and yes, the Russians have threatened to use weapons of mass destruction in certain phases of the war, but they also have to understand the Russians bluff a lot.

So, there's always this mathematics that has to take place, this calculation that has to take place, whether or not to use significant weapons. But if the U.S. allow the Ukrainians to use weapons that could put a lot of Russian weapon systems at risk, that would then shorten the war, would minimize casualties and would really allow the Ukrainians to achieve wartime goals that would allow them to then keep their sovereignty.

SCIUTTO: Unless the Russians break through these lines and we're talking about a different calculus.

Cedric Leighton, thanks so much.

LEIGHTON: You bet, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Well, a big protest outside parliament scuffles inside, lawmakers in Georgia, this is the country of Georgia, passed the controversial foreign agents bill, the critic say is a carbon copy of Vladimir Putin's law in Russia. The law will require any organizations to register as agents of foreign influence if they receive more than 20 percent of funding from abroad.

[15:25:07]

What's this all mean?

CNN's Clare Sebastian has more. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CLARE SEBASTIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Storming the barricades. Protesters in the Georgian capital, refusing to accept their weeks-long battle could be lost.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They can't scare us. They can do anything to make us go away. We are going to stay here and fight.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are not Russia and we are not Belarus. We will not allow anyone to bring those foreign agents. We will resist.

SEBASTIAN: Protesters face down a wall of riot police pushing them back just hours after opposition and government faced off in parliament.

ANA TSITLIDZE, GEORGIAN MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, UNITED NATIONAL MOVEMENT (through translator): You are the Russian regime. You are the legitimate Russian regime.

EKA SEPASHVILI, GEORGIAN MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, GEORGIAN DREAM (through translator): It's double standards and the hypocrisy of the opposition.

SEBASTIAN: Georgia's pro-European majority has tasted success. Scenes like this last year forced the government to scrap the same so-called foreign agent bill, seen here as a replica of a repressive Russian law and a sign of Moscow's growing influence in this small post-Soviet state.

Then in March, barely three months of two gaining E.U. candidate status, the Georgian government revived the law. In a rare appearance in late April, the ruling party's honorary leader, the most powerful driving force, lashing out the West.

BIDZINA IVANISHVILI, RULING PARTY HONORARY CHAIRMAN, GEORGIAN DREAM: Despite the promises of the 2008 Bucharest summit, Georgia and Ukraine have not been accepted into NATO and have been left out to dry. All those decisions are made by the global party of war.

SEBASTIAN: As protesters grew more determined, the police response escalated. Violence widely condemned by the European Union.

In this shocking attack on May 1st, opposition leader Levan Khabeishvili says he was deliberately targeted. His bruises are still visible.

LEVAN KHABEISHVILI, GEORGIAN OPPOSITION LEADER, UNITED NATIONAL MOVEMENT: He did not get what they wanted from me. They were filming to upload their video afterwards, and to show the opposition leader in a state that would discredit me.

SEBASTIAN: And violence, not the only means of intimidation. Transparency International says these posters of its local executive director appeared a few days ago outside its offices, and those of other NGOs. The text reads, traitor and grant guzzler. EKA GIGAURI, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, TRANSPARENCY INTERNATIONAL: You are under the attack all the time. So the governmental officials and even the prime minister would organize the press conference where they will single you out.

SEBASTIAN: Still the drumbeat of opposition in Georgia louder. This is a country at a crossroads.

E.U. making it clear if this bill becomes law, future membership is at serious risk.

Clare Sebastian, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Our thanks to Clare Sebastian for that report.

Georgia's parliament will now send the law to the president who has said she would veto it. Lawmakers would be able to override though her veto with a simple majority.

Still to come, the Biden administration raises the stakes in a trade war with China, increasing tariffs on a whole range of Chinese imports.

"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" anchor Richard Quest joins me next to break it all down.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:31:48]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back.

President Biden is significantly ratcheting up the U.S.-China trade war today, levying tariffs on some $18 billion of Chinese imports, targeting industries where Biden's legislation is aimed to boost U.S. manufacturing, such as electric vehicles, quadrupling the tariffs on Chinese made EVs to 100 percent, tripling tariffs on steel and aluminum imports, doubling the tariff on semiconductors.

President Biden frame the move today as protecting manufacturing jobs in the U.S. as well as taking on unfair Chinese trade practices, and he attempted to contrast his made in America trade policy with Donald Trump's America first.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My administration is combining investments in American with tariffs that are strategic and targeted. It's a smart approach. Compare that to the progress the prior administration did. My predecessor promised to increase American exports and boost manufacturing, but he did neither, he failed.

REPORTER: He said, China is eating our lunch, that's what Trump said today. BIDEN: He's been feeding them a long time!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Joining me now to break it all down, CNN business editor-at- large and anchor of "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS", Richard Quest.

So, Richard, you know, when I look at these tariffs strikes me, is that there are two different categories here, right? Because semiconductors, it's competitive, but the administration has also argued that this is a technological national security issue to some degree.

RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Yeah.

SCIUTTO: When you talk EVs, solar panels, steel and aluminum, that's really competitive issue, is it not? I mean, they're worried about being flooded by Chinese imports which are notably in many circumstances cheaper.

QUEST: Exactly. Now, these are the semiconductors, which, of course, has been the subject of tariffs before, both under Trump and now, of course, ratcheted under Biden. And the interesting thing about these is this goes to the heart of the Chip Act in the United States and the Inflation Reduction Act and all of those various bits of legislation and these are sort of, if you will, a protection is a measure to help protect the U.S. industry against cheaper imports direct into the country.

And the same can obviously said for solar panels. You remember that Trump himself did some Trump, some tariffs on solar panels. And this is again, the Biden administration coming into the act and saying, well, hang on. We've seen the lay of the land, and now we're going to ratchet those up in various cases.

The EVs that you talk about is something completely new because many of the EVs, most of them in fact that you're talking about aren't even sold in the United States. The BYDs aren't even sold here in the U.S. But what the -- what the Biden administration has seen is the way in which BYD and others have taken up to 10 percent market share in Europe, and that could go up to 25 percent its forecast. And they're basically saying that's not going to happen here.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. Let me ask you about what case Biden was making there to say because they're aligned. Trump and Biden are aligned on tariffs, no question.

QUEST: Yeah.

SCIUTTO: And by the way, Biden has renewed some Trump tariffs.

Biden's argument is that, in fact, his administration, playing both sides of the game, raising the tariffs, but also significantly investing in U.S. jobs, the Chips Act, as you mentioned, other investments.

[15:35:09]

Does he have a point there?

QUEST: Well, in the sense that he's the president now and he's done the last four years, yes, he has put in place the various pieces of post-Trump legislation. The Chip Act, the Inflation Reduction Act, all those various bits that have taken the story further. I suspect Biden would also point to the Wisconsin factories that shows the difference if you look at Foxconn in Wisconsin versus Microsoft in Wisconsin, he would say one was promised and smoke and mirrors, yeah, there's actually going to happen.

Where I think you get into real difficulty gym is when you try to get to the bottom of tariffs because at the same time as we have both sides ratcheting it up. Remember, a lot of the Biden research into these was started under Trump. This didn't just happen overnight because of politics, let me make that clear.

There have been lots of reports, 301 reports, different reports that have all shown the necessity for doing this according to the policies of the day. But and this is the call and this will be true under Biden as much as it is under Trump, a review of the Trump tariffs on China actually showed the cost the American consumer dear. They actually, as everybody said at the time, they have a negative impact on consumer prices. They cost Americans more because it reduces competition, and that will also happen with the Biden tariffs.

SCIUTTO: Yeah, those tariffs get tacked on to the purchase price which would be true for those cheaper Chinese EVs if they go in sell here.

QUEST: Right.

SCIUTTO: Richard Quest, thanks so much.

QUEST: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: When we do come back, the political pilgrimage to Manhattan, even wearing the same ties. Trump's closest allies, contenders as well in the veepstakes make their way to New York City to show their support for Trump on trial. That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:40:16]

SCIUTTO: Well, the lines between courtroom and campaign stop are blurring even more this week as Trump ushers his most stalwart surrogates to the gallery and a show of political force. Even Speaker Mike Johnson spoke outside the courthouse today in Trump's defense.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I call President Trump and told him I wanted to be here myself to call out what is a travesty of justice. And I think everybody around the country can see that. President Trump is a friend and I wanted to be here to support him. (END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Also making the track today, contenders in the veepstakes, former presidential candidates Vivek Ramaswamy, Governor Doug Burgum, as well as Florida Congressman Byron Donalds.

Let's dive deeper into what's behind all this with two political experts and CNN operatives and political commentators, Democratic strategist Maria Cardona, Republican strategist, Alice Stewart.

Alice, let me ask you this. Are they volunteering? Are they being frog march to the cameras by the campaign?

ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I talked with some of the representatives of each of their teams and they volunteered to go. They wanted to go.

And look, a lot of people will question their motives, whether or not they are vying for the veepstakes or potentially a position in the administration of Trump or to win. But the reality is, these are Republicans. These are key Republicans and Donald Trump is the top of the ticket in 2024 and they're supporting the top of the ticket.

And, you know, we heard just from Speaker Johnson right there. They all had the same message and they've been consistent with this message they feel and many Trump's supporters feel that this is a sham trial. They feel it's garbage.

They feel it's weaponization of the Justice Department and feel as though Donald Trump is being targeted because he's the contender against Joe Biden. And they want to see the judge recuse himself from this, and that's clearly the message that they wanted to send themselves. And they weren't pressured by Trump.

SCIUTTO: But isn't that a feel argument rather than a factual one? Because at the same time, Hunter Biden, the president's son, is about to go on trial on federal gun charges. Democratic Senator Robert Menendez is about -- is on trial for federal corruption charges. Democratic Congressman Henry Cuellar of Texas has just been charged -- federal charges.

By the way, all of these there are federal cases. So wonder, Biden's Justice Department and I don't see Republicans claiming Maria Cardona that these are political -- political case that actually don't see Democrats claiming those are political cases either.

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Because Democrats understand how our justice system works, and that nobody is above the law and frankly, that Donald Trump, as the criminal defendant, that he is, Republicans can't really -- can't really miss that message. They are desperate to try to find a way to spin this to the American people because there's no other way to look at a criminal defendant who has become the nominee of the Republican Party.

And so what you are seeing right now is they are parading to their leader, bending the knee, kissing the ring, like lemmings, like puppets to make sure that they know that Donald Trump understands that if he says jump, they're going to say how high. And a lot of them, many of them are, yes, vying for the VP slot. But Speaker Johnson is there to make sure to underscore to Donald Trump that he is there to do, he is at the House of Representatives to do Donald Trump's bidding.

So, that will work for his supporters its not doing anything to add to the support from independent suburban women that Donald Trump is going to need to win.

SCIUTTO: Alice Stewart, and I know to your credit, you have -- you, Alice Stewart, have called out a lot of this behavior by Trump. I wonder on the surface, there's bravado, right? And there's a sense among Republicans everybody, they say know this is a sham.

This is only going to strengthen the president's support, but we learned today that this case is almost done. Cohen's last witness, defense is not going to call any witnesses. We are going to be in closing arguments, perhaps beginning of next week, maybe in the deliberations by next week, we're going to have -- we're going to have a verdict and that might be a guilty verdict, right? And there might be -- although I've talked to a lot of lawyers and outside chance, he goes to jail if he were to be convicted.

And deep inside the Trump campaign, is there any actual nervousness about the consequences of that politically?

STEWART: Yeah, there are some that are concerned with the possibility, a remote possibility of a conviction because, look, the average person across this country, they're working, they're taking their kids to school, they're focused on putting food on the table and running their daily lives.

[15:45:06]

They're not watching the TikTok of this court proceedings, and they're going to base it's typically make a decision when all is said and done. Look, I think right now, this really isn't swaying the opinion of people, but a conviction potentially could be a game changer. The concern is, you know, I've spoken with many congressmen, they say the people that call into their offices agree with them that this is over zealous prosecutors, but it's the independent voters that Donald Trump needs to be appealing to and the suburban women that he needs to be appealing to.

And, look, based on what were seeing right now in the polls, Donald Trump is ahead and five of the six battleground state.

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

STEWART: So there is the reverse consequences or intended consequence by those that are prosecuting Donald Trump. It has not hurt him in the polls to date, so far.

SCIUTTO: Maria Cardona, I know you saw those "New York Times" swing- state polls earlier this week, "New York Times"/Siena, and they show Trump ahead really -- well, most as you could see there of those swing states, some by very large margins. I know polls go for a lot of different directions.

But there has been a fairly consistent trend of Trump ahead and those swing states and really to close in the national polling. And as you know, a Democratic candidate needs to win by a few points really to have a chance of winning the Electoral College.

CARDONA: Right.

SCIUTTO: What's your level of nervousness?

CARDONA: Oh, sure. I'm nervous. Every Democrat is nervous and we should be because that's the only way you win. That means that you don't leave anything on the table. You're going to wake up every day to make sure that you earn the vote of every single person that was in your coalition.

SCIUTTO: But you believe you're behind? That's the question.

CARDONA: Well --

SCIUTTO: Do you believe he's behind?

CARDONA: Well, I -- what I say and you've heard me say this, Jim, is that the campaign, regardless of what they believe, they need to act like Joe Biden is ten points behind and what that is going to do is its going to make them work their butts off to ensure that they are communicating the message that this president has been a good president, has brought economic growth to so many Americans, has created millions of jobs, has creased wages, has given debt relief to so many students around the country, and importantly is the only one who's going to protect our rights and freedoms and is going to protect our democracy.

Now, moving forward, it is still six months to the election. In this "New York Times" poll, Jim, if you look at the likely voters, Joe Biden is actually tied or ahead in those same swing states. And so again, polls will come and go, which is why you cannot live in breathe by every single poll, you have to look at the trends and you have to look at other information that actually tells you where voters are, like fundraising and special elections.

And those two things are telling the campaign and Democrats that the Democratic agenda is the one that American voters are the ones who actually supporting the Democratic agenda, and that they are rejecting the MAGA extremism that Donald Trump represents.

SCIUTTO: OK.

CARDONA: And that contrast is what Democrats are going to continue to focus on.

SCIUTTO: That's the argument.

Alice Stewart, as you look at these numbers, read the tea leaves, et cetera, do you believe Trump is ahead?

STEWART: Look, if the race were held today, Donald Trump would win, no questions asked because as we all know, this is not a national election, this is a state-by-state election. And in those states, the key battleground states Trump is not just ahead today, he has been consistently ahead.

And we have the pollercoaster of polls over the last several months, and we're not looking at this as a snapshot in time. This is a trend where Donald Trump continues to make ground.

And the key issue here is the economy. And as much as my dear friend says the economy is good and people are satisfied, they're not. The perception by American people is that their economic situation is not better than it was when President Biden took office. And that is going to be a big factor. And them deciding if it's not good under Biden, let's go back to where things were much better and gas prices were cheaper and interest rates were less.

And that's going to be a big mover for voters in November.

SCIUTTO: Goodness, six months ago.

Alice Stewart, Maria Cardona, thanks so much to both of you.

CARDONA: Thank you, Jim.

STEWART: Thanks, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Coming up, wildfire season has arrived in full force in Canada. Plumes of smoke and flames engulfing parts of British Columbia, choking air quality and parts of neighboring U.S. states, you remember how bad the fires were last year. We're going to have an update, coming up.

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[15:52:18]

SCIUTTO: Wildfires season is in full force in Canada as fires have destroyed tens of thousands of acres forced thousands of evacuations of residents as well. There are currently more than 130 active fires burning across Canada, with one massive fire burning more than 85,000 acres in the province of Manitoba Monday evening. Experts say that increasing temperatures and worsening droughts due to climate change are fueling larger and more intense fires in that area as they have elsewhere, including California.

With more, let's bring in CNN's chief climate correspondent Bill Weir.

So, Bill, to tell us what we know about the status of the fires and you follow this so closely, how warming trends might be contributing.

BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT: Well, these fires actually up north, Jim, there's over 100 of them right now, three really big ones. But some of these are so-called zombie fires, holdover fires that didn't fully extinguish from last summer, even in a snowy winter. Sometimes those embers can remain active and then they kicked back up once the spring melt happens.

Well, this year, not a lot of snow up there to distinguish those, then you've got 25, 30 mile an hour winds on top of all of this tinder dry fuel. And what you have there is just off the charts. Last year, 29 million acres burned, but this year is on track to break that record in a big way. The average over the last decade is about 884 fires at this time of the year.

Right now, there's 986 of them burning. The average of acreage burned in a typical year in the last decade was 260,000 acres. So far, 4 million acres have burned, Jim. So the boreal forests up there, that is a big carbon sink historically. Science is worried about the day that it becomes a net carbon positive of some of that forest at tundra starts putting the heat trapping gas that's in the soil into the air on top of what were seeing from these fires, it could get much worse.

SCIUTTO: So we know statistically the summer of 2023, hottest summer and at least 2000 years, you heard that, right? Two thousand years. Tell us about the connection between those warming temperatures and the conditions for wildfires like we're seeing right now.

WEIR: Yeah, this is a new science that looked at tree ring data, Jim, and going back, you know, for centuries back to when the Romans are still ruling Europe and this is -- this is how hot it was last year because of this data showing and it's all those things I talked about before.

It's parching the grand the ground. It's not just evaporation or that the water goes back up into the sky.

[15:55:01]

It's transpiration. It comes through plant life and evaporates faster. So the ground is literally thirstier during these times even the slightest ember there, what are the -- what are the recipes for fire, right? You need fuel and you need oxygen and some -- you need the heat, and you have all three in large quantities up north right now.

And now, air quality, we have to worry about. I'm checking in real time not as bad as it was yesterday. Yesterday, Minneapolis-Saint Paul, air quality was top ten worst in the world. Today, they're in the 60s and 70s. A reminder if it gets over 100 where you are, that's when older folks, younger folks, those with lung problems should be concern, anything over 150 is bad for everybody.

And so masks and staying indoors, all of those concerns should be taken and right now, up around Fort McMurray, are these fires, the air quality index is like over 200.

And these are towns that burn just a few years ago. So it's coming back faster.

SCIUTTO: And, of course, the smoke, the flames, they know no borders -- WEIR: Exactly.

SCIUTTO: -- for folks down south of the border.

Bill Weir, thanks so much as always.

WEIR: You bet.

SCIUTTO: And thanks so much to all of you for joining me today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.