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CNN's Breaking News Coverage on Donald Trump's Guilty Conviction. Aired 3-4a ET

Aired May 31, 2024 - 03:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[03:00:00]

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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

KIM BRUNHUBER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to CNN's special coverage of the criminal conviction of former U.S. President Donald Trump. I'm Kim Brunhuber.

A defiant Donald Trump has made history as the first former U.S. President to become a convicted felon, while raising the possibility that he could also become the first convict to win the White House.

After two days of deliberation, a Manhattan jury found Trump guilty on all 34 counts of falsifying business records to cover up a hush money payment to a porn star ahead of the 2016 election. Sentencing is set for July 11th, and he could get up to 20 years behind bars, or possibly just probation.

But the Trump team is all but certain to appeal, and for now, Trump will stay out of jail without bond. He's expected to hold a news conference outside Trump Tower later today. Here's some of what he had to say after the verdict.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: We have a country that's in big trouble, but this was a rigged decision right from day one with a conflicted judge who should have never been allowed to try this case, never. And we will fight for our constitution. This is long from over.

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Donald Trump's lead defense attorney tells CNN the team was prepared for a guilty verdict and plans to argue in the appeal that the jury was biased against Trump. More now from CNN's Julia Benbrook.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TRUMP: This was a rigged, disgraceful trial. The real verdict is going to be November 5th by the people, and they know what happened here, and everybody knows what happened here. JULIA BENBROOK, CNN NEWSOURCE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Former President Donald Trump speaking to the cameras shortly after the verdict was announced. A Manhattan jury found him guilty of all 34 felony counts of falsifying business records related to a hush money payment to adult film star Stormy Daniels in 2016 to cover up an alleged affair. Trump denied the affair and had pleaded not guilty to the charges.

TRUMP: We didn't do a thing wrong. I'm a very innocent man, and it's okay. I'm fighting for our country. I'm fighting for our constitution.

BENBROOK (voice-over): During the trial, Trump's lawyers argued that there was no evidence of criminal intent to defraud and that the prosecutor's star witness, Michael Cohen, was an admitted liar.

But prosecutors who alleged Trump was trying to illegally influence the 2016 presidential election pushed back against that argument, saying documents and the testimony of others, particularly former "National Enquirer" CEO David Pecker, corroborated Cohen's testimony. The jury deliberated for nearly 12 hours over two days.

In a press conference following the verdict, District Attorney Alvin Bragg thanked them for their service.

ALVIN BRAGG, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Jurors perform a fundamental civic duty. Their service is literally the cornerstone of our judicial system. We should all be thankful for the careful attention that this jury paid to the evidence and the law.

BENBROOK (voice-over): Reporting in Manhattan, I'm Julia Benbrook.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BRUNHUBER: I want to bring in Areva Martin, who's an attorney and legal affairs commentator in Los Angeles. Good to see you again. I just want to start with this. Your reaction to the verdicts and relatively quickly, right, less than 10 hours of deliberation.

AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY AND LEGAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: I wasn't surprised, Kim, by the verdict. There was a mound or mountain of evidence put on by the prosecuting attorney. And this was a fairly simple white collar crime business case brought by this prosecuting attorney whose office says they've been filing these kinds of business cases, business fraud cases for 90 years. So this is the bread and butter of this prosecuting attorney's office.

So I didn't think that there would be any decision other than guilty on all counts. The defense put on by Donald Trump's team was really about Michael Cohen. But this case was so much bigger and there was so much evidence beyond the testimony of Michael Cohen. So I wasn't surprised by the verdict by the jury.

BRUNHUBER: So based on what you said, I mean, the prosecution must have sort of built a good case. Do you think the defense made any mistakes and why do you think Trump didn't testify? Might that have helped? MARTIN: Well, you know, Kim, Trump makes a habit of always saying he's

going to testify in cases, but he never does or he rarely does. And I think in this case, he would have been subjected to such grueling cross-examination. I doubt if he would have been able to withstand the cross-examination by the prosecuting attorneys.

And I don't think there's anything he could have done to help his case. The evidence, again, the written evidence, the documentary evidence, the evidence of business records, the invoices, the handwritten notes, all of that overwhelming evidence to try to overcome, even by Donald Trump.

[03:05:01]

And in terms of mistakes by his team, I think the way they went after Stormy Daniels, trying to humiliate her, trying to in some ways shame her for the profession that she's in, I think that backfired on them.

I think the way that Trump and the witness, Costello, that they brought, the defense witness, the way they scorned the judge, the way they interacted with the judge, I think that also hurt their case. Look, juries typically love their judges, and they look to the judge and, you know, they follow the instructions of the judge. And in this case, the way Trump and his team treated the judge, I think, again, probably backfired with respect to this jury.

BRUNHUBER: All right. So on the sentencing, plenty of mitigating factors, his age, a first-time offender, it was a nonviolent crime. On the other hand, plenty of aggravating factors as well, including the number of counts, the lack of remorse. I mean, which side do you think the judge will land on here?

MARTIN: You know, one thing that's interesting, Kim, I don't think Donald Trump's team is going to come into court and do what a typical defense team would do, provide those factors that you just identified as mitigating factors, talking about his age, talking about this being a first-time offense for him.

I think their arrogance and their hubris, they're probably going to come in and continue to argue that this was a sham trial, that Michael Cohen was a liar that this verdict should be thrown out because it was based on Michael Cohen's testimony. I don't see them making the standard mitigating arguments that you would expect from your typical defendant.

And as you indicated, there are multiple, multiple aggregating factors. The fact that he has not shown any remorse, that he's not accepted any responsibility that he continues to violate the gag order, that there are at least ten documented violations of that gag order.

He left court today and, again, attacked the whole process, attacked the judicial system, attacked the judge. He didn't come out and accept any personal responsibility. So I think it would be almost impossible for this judge not to sentence him to some jail time, even if it's on the lower end of the four years. BRUNHUBER: Really? Jail time? You think, I mean, you know, being a

presidential candidate isn't supposed to factor into it. But I mean, the reality is the reality, right? You really think he will serve jail time here?

MARTIN: Well, again, set aside the fact that he was a former president of the United States, if he were any other defendant, he would probably be facing jail time at the higher end of the range, given his conduct, given, as I said, his lack of contrition, his lack of accepting any responsibility, his repeated attacks on the process. Those are things that normal defendants get to do without facing very, very significant penalties for their conduct.

And I think this judge has proven that he's not going to treat Donald Trump any other way than any other defendant that is in his courtroom. He's going to hold him to account and he's going to treat him in the same way any other defendant would be treated. And again, if this were any other defendant, he would be facing jail time without doubt.

BRUNHUBER: Really? All right. Well, we shall see. Obviously, Donald Trump will appeal. Any idea on what grounds? I mean, misconduct by the jury, for instance. What do you think his team will be honing in on here?

MARTIN: Well, the one thing that they have been consistent in asserting to this court is the unreliability, the credibility issues with Michael Cohen. That has been their argument from day one. That has been the defense that they have asserted throughout this entire trial. And I expect that that will be the same playbook that they will run with respect to an appeal. They will make arguments about Michael Cohen and the fact that the jury relying on in their estimation, any testimony from Michael Cohen automatically nullifies the decision by this jury and renders its decision null and void.

But I don't think that's going to be a winnable argument at the appellate level. It wasn't a winnable argument with this judge. And I think the reality is Donald Trump has to, like anyone else that commits a crime in the state of New York or any state, he has to be held accountable and he is not above the law. And New Yorkers sent him a very loud and clear message to that effect.

BRUNHUBER: All right. A historic conviction. I really appreciate getting your take on it. Areva Martin, thank you so much for joining us.

MARTIN: Thanks, Kim.

BRUNHUBER: Reaction from the White House has been low key. President Biden called attention to the November election with a social media post, writing the only way to keep Donald Trump out of the Oval Office is at the ballot box. CNN's Kayla Tausche has more.

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KAYLA TAUSCHE, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: As the news of the historic conviction of Donald Trump came down, Biden administration employees in the West Wing were said to be transfixed and stunned by the news, which they watched relayed on TVs mounted in the hallways of the West Wing that are constantly tuned to four concurrent cable channel.

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One senior administration official asked by CNN how to respond to the Trump verdict said simply, it matters.

President Biden is traveling in Delaware and aides traveling with him declined to share additional details with CNN and the traveling pool about how President Biden learned of the historic decision, who relayed the news to him and where he was when he received it.

And there are no public events on President Biden's calendar for the following day in which he would be expected to be addressing this directly. The reporters are expected to be able to shout questions on a few separate occasions.

As for the Biden-Harris reelection campaign, they have seized the mantle on the messaging, immediately following the verdict, blasting text messages, emails, tweets, asking for grassroots donations and saying convicted felon or not, Trump will be the Republican nominee for president in one message, even suggesting that Trump could see record fundraising as a result of the conviction.

Kayla Tausche, CNN, the White House.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BRUNHUBER: Well, U.S. lawmakers are approving partisan politics still reigns in Washington, many taking to social media to voice their split reactions on Thursday's historic verdict. CNN's Lauren Fox has the latest.

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LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We saw a swift reaction coming from Capitol Hill, especially Republicans with Speaker Mike Johnson saying that this was a shameful day in American history. The Democrats cheered as they convicted the leader of the opposing party on ridiculous charges, predicated on the testimony of a disbarred convicted felon.

We also heard from other members of the Republican leadership team in the House, including Tom Emmer, who wrote, quote, "Democrats just pulled off the biggest sham in U.S. history. The American people won't forget the corrupt two-tiered system of justice and will issue the real verdict at the ballot box in November."

Now, over in the United States Senate, we did hear from John Cornyn. He is running to replace Mitch McConnell as Republican leader after the November election. He wrote on Twitter, quote, "this verdict is a disgrace and this trial should have never happened. Now, more than ever, we need to rally around real Donald Trump, take back the White House and Senate and get this country back on track." Now, you're seeing there a lot of similar themes as Republicans are

trying to paint this verdict as one that is political.

Meanwhile, Democrats have a different approach. You heard from Senator Whitehouse, who said on Twitter, boom, in reaction to Donald Trump's conviction. You also had Senator Chris Murphy tweeting, quote, "newsflash: it matters that the Republican nominee for president is a convicted criminal. The rule of law still matters".

So like so many issues that have come up when we are talking about Donald Trump, the former president of the United States, you have Republicans and Democrats deeply divided on Capitol Hill.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BRUNHUBER: U.S. Congressman Jamie Raskin was the lead impeachment manager during Donald Trump's second impeachment trial in 2021. He tells CNN why he thinks Trump's conviction is a victory for the rule of law and democracy. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): Well, I felt some relief and vindication for the rule of law. You know, I've been traveling around the country. I've been to 20 states now. And so many people have said to me along the road, they just don't feel like the law can ever really catch up to the level of lawlessness that we've seen.

And so the jury system works in America. And a judge who follows the law scrupulously, wherever it will lead for the state or for the defendant that works. So that feels good. I feel like today was a victory, at least a minor victory for the rule of law and also for democratic politics. And I guess the other thing that crossed my mind was how central women have been to bringing Donald Trump to justice. Stormy Daniels in this case, E. Jean Carroll in the civil case where he was adjudicated a sexual assailant.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUNHUBER: Trump's hush money payments to Stormy Daniels were at the heart of this trial, ahead of how the adult film star's husband says she's processing the guilty verdict.

Plus, we'll hear from Trump supporters and critics gathered outside the Manhattan courthouse. Our coverage continues after the break. Stay with us.

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BRUNHUBER: Donald Trump's opponents there chanting in New York following the historic conviction in his hush money trial. He was found guilty on all 34 counts, making him the first former U.S. President with the label of convicted felon. Sentencing is set for July 11th, just days before the Republican national convention. In the meantime, Trump will remain free and he can keep running for president. The sentence could be anything from probation to up to 20 years in prison.

Now Trump's charges of falsifying business records were centered around hush money payments to adult film star Stormy Daniels. She spent two days on the witness stand under the relentless cross examination of defense attorneys who tried to discredit her testimony. She detailed her alleged 2006 sexual encounter with Trump, a claim he had denied. Now that a guilty verdict has been reached, her husband Barrett Blades says she's still processing the outcome.

Here's more on Daniels' reaction from his interview with CNN's Erin Burnett.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: Tell me what it was like in that moment when Stormy finds out you're there.

BARRETT BLADE, STORMY DANIELS' HUSBAND (on the phone): We were in the middle of shooting our movie that we're producing called Decoy and we decided, we heard from, we got a text, so we put it in front of the TV and recorded it all. It was pretty exciting.

BURNETT: Speaking to her, when I did, she seemed emotional. I mean, has she been able to process this? There's been a long, long time waiting for this moment.

BLADE (on the phone): I think she's still processing, you know. Once again, I said this before, I don't, you know, I think both ways it's going to be tough on her, you know. Now all the, all the maggot idiots are going to be coming after her and creating more hoopla than necessary because, you know, facts are facts and I don't think they see that. So.

BURNETT: Barrett, you know, the truth is, and I know she's there, this wouldn't have happened without her, right? It is her story, it is what happened to her, it is the payment to her, all of it is, is why we are all here right now. Does she feel vindicated because of that? I mean, she's taken a lot of abuse and -- and threats for coming forward.

BLADE (on the phone): This wouldn't have happened without her, but also this wasn't her case. She didn't ask for this, you know. She was, she was brought into this. This wasn't her seeking justice for herself. She was -- she was standing up for herself early on and saying what was right, but this whole hush money trial has really nothing, it's not her story.

I mean, it's nice that the jury saw the facts and made the decision. And, and of course we support that either way, if they'd solve it differently, we would have supported either way. But I think it does help with the fact that she feels, you know, a

little vindicated that, you know, she was telling the truth. And to this day though, I don't know if that matters. I think a lot of people still think she's lying.

So, I mean, I don't know that anybody will ever, people that aren't going to believe are just not going to believe they've made up their mind and that's that. And that's fine. They have a right to bet that this is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUNHUBER: Now outside the New York courthouse, CNN's Shimon Prokupecz spoke with Trump supporters and critics about what they thought of Thursday's historic verdict.

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SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SR. CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Trump supporters and those against the former president were gathering in this park here, just opposite the court as the verdict was coming down. And obviously those who are against the former president were cheering as they were learning the verdict.

And those who are supporters of the former president were all gathered here in this area. And at one point sort of shocked and stunned at the verdict, but they say they were not surprised because he has been targeted, targeted by this district attorney, targeted by law enforcement, targeted by the court system.

And so it was hard for them to accept the verdict. Take a listen to what both sides had to say when the verdict came down.

UNKNOWN: They're targeting this man because he's about to be president again. There's no crime from what I can see. And I think it's going to make him more popular with the American people because they're seeing how he's been targeted.

UNKNOWN: I'm glad that the former president is being held accountable because it's the most important thing in a democracy is that no one is above the law, especially an ex-president. The record is so important that he was convicted. And I'm very proud of my fellow New Yorkers for being brave enough to do the right thing.

PROKUPECZ: Both sides saying that they will be back out here for the sentencing in July. Back to you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BRUNHUBER: Donald Trump's wife, Melania, and their son, Barron, were noticeably absent from the courtroom on Thursday, even though both were in New York at the time. Sources familiar with the couple tell CNN it isn't surprising that Mrs. Trump has not been present in court. Now earlier, our Abby Phillip spoke with a former longtime advisor to Melania Trump about the former first lady's possible take on this trial. Here she is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANIE WILSON WOLKOFF, AUTHOR, "MELANIA AND ME": I think that, you know, Donald finally got caught. And along the way, Melania knew exactly who she married. She knew that this was a transactional marriage. She became a top model. He became a loving, doting father. And it set them up for their run for the White House.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUNHUBER: Niece Mary Trump says she believes Thursday's verdicts will drive more lies from the former president. Mary Trump spoke with CNN shortly after the verdict was announced. And listen to what she had to say about what she thinks he will do next.

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MARY TRUMP, NIECE OF FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I think even he cannot deny as much as he'd like to that -- that today he was convicted on 34 felony counts and that he is indeed a convicted felon. And he's going to have to grapple with the fallout of that.

However, having said that, I think the -- the recognition of that won't last very long. We seem to be in a very similar situation to the one we were in after the 2020 election.

Privately, he was able to concede that he had lost. But very quickly after that, the humiliation sort of overwhelmed him. And we ended up with the big lie, which led to stop the steal, which led to the insurrection.

So unfortunately, I do think we need to be braced for a pivot to his attempts, at least, to create another alternate reality in which he can protect himself from what is unquestionably a devastating loss in court today.

He's incapable of accepting what happened. And he's certainly incapable of admitting that he'd done anything wrong. So that's just going to complicate things for him going forward.

I said this in 2020, before the election, that because we know that Donald was already saying that he wasn't going to accept the results unless he won. He was already saying that it was rigged in case that he lost.

So we are in similar territory, except, of course, things are worse and more dangerous than they were four years ago.

And we saw this yesterday. Michael Fanone, Capitol Police officer who laid his life on the line to protect the Capitol, to protect all of the people in that building and to protect American democracy, went to the courthouse in New York City and he spoke his mind.

Not long after that, his mother's house was swatted. So Donald has long been engaging in stochastic terrorism. He uses his

power, his platform and his influence to get his followers to commit acts of violence on his behalf. That's something we desperately need to look out for. There is nothing this man will not stoop to. If he feels like he's going down, he will absolutely take the rest of us with him. That was true four years ago. It's even more true now. It's especially true now that he has finally faced justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[03:24:55]

BRUNHUBER: Our coverage of the historic criminal conviction of Donald Trump continues after a quick break. When we come back, a look at Trump's chances of appeal. His former White House attorney weighs in on the case next.

Plus, Trump's political advisors aren't concerned the verdict will hurt him in the polls. Why they believe there won't be a backlash from voters despite the conviction on all counts. That's all coming up. Stay with us.

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BRUNHUBER: Welcome back to all of you watching us around the world. I'm Kim Brunhuber. This is "CNN Newsroom".

Donald Trump is vowing to fight the 34 guilty verdicts in his hush money trial, verdicts that made him the first former president in U.S. history to become a convicted felon. The jury found Trump guilty on all counts of falsifying business records in a hush money scheme to silence an adult film star over an alleged affair, all part of what prosecutors say was an illegal conspiracy to undermine the integrity of the 2016 presidential election.

Trump is scheduled to be sentenced on July 11th, just four days before the start of the National Convention in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. That's where he's expected to be formally selected as the party's nominee to take on U.S. President Joe Biden at the ballot box in November.

Former Trump White House lawyer Ty Cobb spoke with CNN's Erin Burnett about the historic guilty verdicts and Trump's chances at appeal.

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TY COBB, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE LAWYER: I think that given the indictment as it was written, the proof as it came in establishing the facts necessary to support those charges as written, and the jury instructions surrounding the statute in question, I think the jurors really had no choice and I don't think they had much difficulty, you know, reaching these conclusions. I think the issue with this case has always been more legal than factual.

I think there is a more serious issue on appeal than others may think. I think the question of the constitutionality of the statute as applied and the sufficiency of the indictment in terms of notice, intent, and due process will be significant issues on appeal. They may not prevail, but I think Trump has a better basis for appeal.

BURNETT: Just to ask on that one point, is it possible then that that appeal, because of the way you're citing constitutionality, due process, would actually go to the Supreme Court?

COBB: It's certainly possible that it could after a long road in the New York appellate world. Trump can take multiple appeals in New York, go to the First Division, and then take it up higher, and that will drag out for quite some time, I would suspect. A jail term is not likely, but it's certainly possible.

[03:30:00]

But what does that mean? I mean, if he is sentenced to jail, he wouldn't serve that sentence in all likelihood until after the appeals have run, which would be a year to 18 months or maybe more. And if he's elected, it would be four years.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: Right. Okay. I understand you on that point. On the other point, just so I can understand, are you saying that he wouldn't serve that until after the appeals process because they would extend him some courtesy as a presidential candidate, and that others normally would serve it right away or not?

COBB: No. So the reason I say it is, typically anybody in his circumstances would be granted bail pending appeal.

BURNETT: Okay. All right. So that explains that.

COBB: Nothing unique about the defendant on that.

BURNETT: Okay. Thank you for that, just to make sure that's very clear for all of us. Ty, as you sit here, and I know you expected this, and I know that when it comes to the gravity of these cases, you think others are much more significant in terms of the broader worldview.

I understand that. But yet here you are talking to me, and we have talked countless nights. Did you ever think you'd see this day, right? Person you worked with, a former president of the United States, and you were representing the White House, now going to be the presumptive nominee for the GOP, would actually be a convicted felon?

COBB: Well, I certainly didn't see it in my younger days when I was more aspirational and optimistic about the course of the country. But certainly, given the events of January 6th and the classified documents case, I did expect to see it. And I do think if those cases ever get to trial, that Trump will do actual serious time somewhere in the six to nine year range.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KIM BRUNHUBER, CNN ANCHOR: Well, the backdrop for this legal case is the presidential election in November when the U.S. is expected to see a Trump-Biden rematch. Kristen Holmes reports on possible political implications for Trump and his plans to talk about the case in the coming hours. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Shortly after leaving the courthouse, after being convicted and found guilty on all 34 charges, Donald Trump announced from Trump Tower that he would be giving a press conference on Friday morning reacting to the verdict in his criminal hush money trial.

Now, I have been told by senior advisors that Donald Trump is going to continue to use the same messaging that he has used since before the trial began, calling this a rigged election, saying that this was political persecution. Now, because of this messaging, they believe, this being his senior campaign advisors that this is not going to harm him in November. That instead, it will energize Republicans, energize his base.

But it should be made clear that this is really uncharted territory, despite the fact that they compare this to his other legal issues, including multiple indictments, which actually helped give him a boost in both the polls and in fundraising numbers.

This is an actual conviction. And recent polling showed that of people who said that they were already going to vote for Donald Trump, 7 percent said they were less likely to vote for him if he was convicted. Now, while this is not a huge number, everything is going to count in the upcoming election. Both Biden's team and Trump's team believe that this is going to be a very narrow margin.

And 7 percent is especially significant if you are talking about Donald Trump's base, because his campaign believes that Donald Trump's base always shows up to vote.

So whether or not this actually impacts what people do when they get to the ballot box remains to be seen. But we should hear, we should expect to continue to hear that messaging over and over again, trying to link this case to President Joe Biden and calling this political persecution.

Kristen Holmes, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BRUNHUBER: And for more analysis, we're joined by Luis Alvarado, a political consultant and the founder of Brisa Del Mar Strategies. He's speaking to us from Los Angeles. Thank you so much for being here with us. I really appreciate it. So I just want to start with this. I mean, history being made here, an ex-president and presidential nominee being convicted.

LUIS ALVARADO, POLITICAL ANALYST AND FOUNDER, BRISA DEL MAR STRATEGIES: Yeah, convicted. And certainly America is waking up that the presidential election is open wide. And many people had doubts that this day would come. But it's here now. And now it's a topic of conversation. It's going to linger for many days.

And the questions are going to be different depending on which side of the political ideology spectrum you stand on. If you're a MAGA, Republican, Trump supporter, you know, you're already amped up and your effervescence is at full throttle.

So this doesn't do much for them except really get them out to the streets. If you're a Democrat or anti-Trump, you know, this was expected. Nobody ever said, nobody is saying that Trump is innocent.

[03:35:04]

They're just saying that maybe the system is being rigged against them. But the key thing here is the independence. The independent voter gave Donald Trump the presidency in 2016, and they took it away in 2020. And Donald Trump needs independence so he can win in 2024.

BRUNHUBER: Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what impact that has. In the meantime, I mean, in terms of the party itself, I mean, you were formerly active in the Republican Party. Certainly from what they're seeing, they're circling the wagons. How do you think the party and top Republicans are going to handle this?

ALVARADO: Well, they're circling the wagons in public and most of the people that are circling the wagons are Republicans that depend on the robust Trump campaign so they themselves can see them protecting the seats that they have and gain the seats where they have an opportunity.

You know, the Republicans have a great opportunity to take on the Senate on this election, but they need to make sure that Republicans show up in great numbers and independents help to get those purple states across the finish line for Republicans.

Democrats have been in trouble for many, many weeks, and this may be a little bit of a help to them, but it still doesn't convince the independents that Democrats are the answer. The question is, how many people are actually going to just sit in their hands on election day and not vote for one or the other?

BRUNHUBER: Yeah, a lot of disaffection both ways, I guess. Maryland Republican Senate candidate Larry Hogan, who's been critical of Donald Trump in the past, called for Americans to, quote, "respect the verdict and the legal process". Well, then a Trump senior advisor responded on social media with, quote, you just ended your campaign. It sounds like this will very much be a loyalty test for the GOP. Basically, who can denounce this verdict the loudest?

ALVARADO: And we see it in all the social media platforms. You know, you see the Ted Cruz's and the Marco Rubio's of the world coming out and denouncing the travesty and ensuring that this will not stay without some kind of repercussion. And we see many Republicans that are afraid that as you need these fundraising machines to take full effect for the campaigns, that they may be also restricted and that we may not see a lot of people actually donating that they expected to donate.

So you're going to lose voters in the donation aspect. You're going to lose people's ability to support a Donald Trump presidency. And those who are sitting on a fence are going to have to do a really hard thinking process to ensure that they want to be labeled Trump supporters after he's been deemed a convicted felon.

BRUNHUBER: But you think he's actually going to lose money from this? I mean, it seems I think the coffers are going to be overflowing after this, surely.

ALVARADO: Maybe in the short term, but not in the long term. Because the whole thing about running campaigns is when you get people to donate to your campaign, you want them to be stakeholders in your campaign. And the people who've been donating, they may donate more in the next few weeks, but they're already on Donald Trump's team.

The money is needed to make sure that you can reach out and touch the undecided. Those are the ones who are going to decide who's going to be president of the United States.

And then there's a question nobody's talking about. Are there any silent discussions of what if Donald Trump actually starts losing so much ground in the polls that you may have to figure out that he may not be the right candidate? (Inaudible).

BRUNHUBER: I think that's fairly unlikely.

ALVARADO: (Inaudible) just like they had on the Democrat side when Biden's numbers seemed to be tanking as well.

BRUNHUBER: Yeah, there don't seem to be anyone waiting in the wings. But in the meantime, I just want to end with this looking at the voters, you said it sort of throws things wide open. I mean, the fact that Donald Trump was found guilty, does that change things in the voters' minds in terms of all the other three other felony indictments seem more real, seem more tangible? Does it make it harder to dismiss in their minds, do you think?

ALVARADO: It does. And I'll tell you why. Because people are following the process and they're looking at the evidence. And if you look at all these people on the right side, on the Trump side, attacking the results, it's not because they're attacking the evidence, because the evidence is quite profound and undisputable. They're attacking the process. They know that they have a deficient human being as their candidate, and they accept that.

[03:39:56]

What they're saying is that the machinery is being used against them because his ideology or those that support Trump's ideology is a chess move that is unmoral and it's an underbelly attack on what Trump and MAGA stands for. I know I said a lot there. I'm sorry about that.

BRUNHUBER: No, that's great. But listen, we will have to leave it there. But it was great to have you on, Luis Alvarado in Los Angeles. Thank you so much for speaking with us.

ALVARADO: Always a pleasure. Thank you. BRUNHUBER: Well, it was a historic moment, as I said, when the jury

found Donald Trump guilty of all 34 felony counts against him. Presidential historian Doris Kearns Goodwin spoke earlier with CNN's Anderson Cooper, and she explained the significance the verdict has in a historical context. Here she is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Even as I was waiting for the verdict, I kept imagining what it would be like 50 years from now, what historians would say. And I think what they will say in part depends on what we do with this on November 5th. But what they'll say about now is that a system -- an important part of a system of democracy -- worked today, that the rule of law was, as the judge said, he's your peer, the defendant is your peer, no man is above the law.

And I think they'll seem this trial, at least so it seemed to all of us watching it, that there was a fundamental fairness, that the judge was an extraordinary character. He let both sides have their say.

And the jury spoke. First the lawyers speak, then the experts in the media speak, and finally those 12 people speak. And while the jury system is never perfect, as no institution is, it's a hallmark of democracy. So I think that's the first thing that'll be written in the chapters of history later on.

Then the question will be, how does the public receive this verdict? Is it going to be fractured like the country? Will there be many people who agree with President Trump, former President Trump, that it was rigged? How many of those people will there be? Will it make a difference that this verdict is there to those people that are undecided, those people that are independent? How will the citizens are going to write the next chapter of this story? And that may be the even more important part that's to come.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: And a lot will ride on how this candidate chooses to use this as a cudgel or to use this. I mean, there's clearly no sense of shame, but how does this candidate choose to kind of weaponize this if he chooses to do that, even more so than he's already done during this campaign? I mean, does he double down on attacking the pillars of democracy, double down on attacking the judicial system, the jury system?

KEARNS GOODWIN: Well, you know, what we've seen really in the past, which tells us the likelihood of what he'll do now in the present, when the election was lost in 2020, again, most legal systems who looked at that election said it was fundamentally fair, as I think they may, about this jury system. And yet he was able to persuade by doubling down a lot of people that the election was not lost. It led to January 6th.

At that time, I thought that had made a difference and that everything would be changed. So even as I say that now, that this is going to have a fundamental effect on people, I do feel, however, that I don't know that 71 percent of the people as a current poll say it won't matter that this verdict came in. I think when people look at it, they're going to wonder something went on during this thing.

Somehow the prosecution was able to make a story that had a beginning, a middle and an end that persuaded those jurors that something bad happened. And I wonder how many people are going to feel that as well. And do we really want to have as somebody as our leader who sets an example that you cannot accept a loss?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUNHUBER: All right. Still to come, we'll hear from two veteran journalists on how Trump's guilty verdict could impact an already divided nation. Stay with us.

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[03:45:00]

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BRUNHUBER: For the first time in U.S. history, a former president, Donald Trump, has been convicted of a felony. The New York jury deliberated for nearly 12 hours before finding Trump guilty on all 34 counts of falsifying business records in his hush money trial. Trump is also the first nominee of a major party to be convicted in the middle of a campaign for the White House. Sentencing is set for July 11th, just days before the Republican National Convention starts in Milwaukee. If he wins the election in November, Trump will be the first sitting president in history to be a convicted felon.

Veteran American journalists Carl Bernstein and Bob Woodward, who covered the Nixon-Watergate scandal decades ago, weighed in after the verdict. Bernstein says the verdict will further divide the country and U.S. politics over the next few months.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It's momentous that we have a former president of the United States as a convicted felon in a case in which the facts were evident. There is no question that the rule of law has prevailed here, but it still is incendiary in terms of where this country is right now. It's like pouring gasoline on a fire that's already burning.

Trump's response that we've heard already, saying that this emanated with President Biden, that he's responsible for this prosecution, I have to say I know of no one in the White House, Bob might know of someone, who wanted this prosecution to proceed. That in fact the view in the White House was that this was not a good idea, that there is a very serious case of January 6th, the incitement of a seditionist riot by the President of the United States, that's the case that people in the White House would like to see go forward and ought to go forward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUNHUBER: Now for his part, Bob Woodward says Trump may be right when he said the real verdict will be decided on election day in November. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB WOODWARD, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR: I first saw and did not expect a quick verdict, and so I thought, oh maybe the country's not as divided as I thought, and then to be honest, I tuned into Fox News and it's just another chapter in the political wars. This is not about the law or whatever, and there are people who may love the verdict, people who hate it, but that's the battleground, and one thing I think we have to agree with President -- former President Trump on is this is going to be decided on election day, November 5th.

It's not going to be decided back and forth, and what has happened here is a little bit of a blip. Frankly, everything's a blip, because it all feeds into the narrative of this completely divided country that can't agree on much of anything, and it hopefully will be settled November 5th.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUNHUBER: Donald Trump may be a defendant unlike any other in American history, but Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg says jurors reached this verdict in the same manner as every other case by following the facts and the law. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALVIN BRAGG, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY: The 12 everyday jurors vowed to make a decision based on the evidence and the law and the evidence and the law alone. Their deliberations led them to a unanimous conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant, Donald J. Trump, is guilty of 34 counts of falsifying business records in the first degree to conceal a scheme to corrupt the 2016 election. While this defendant may be unlike any other in American history, we arrived at this trial and ultimately today at this verdict in the same manner as every other case that comes to the courtroom doors.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[03:50:05]

BRUNHUBER: So this historic trial and verdict was years in the making. Ahead, we'll look at how the story unfolded in the news starting with the "National Enquirer's" catch and kill operation. Stay with us.

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BRUNHUBER: Former U.S. President Donald Trump is now a convicted felon. A jury has found him guilty on all 34 felony counts in his New York hush money trial. It took jurors nearly 12 hours to reach their verdict. Trump's sentencing is set for July 11th. He could get probation or a maximum 20 years behind bars, but his legal team is planning to appeal. The presidential candidate was convicted of falsifying business records to cover up a hush money payment to adult film star Stormy Daniels before the 2016 election. Now during the trial, the former "National Enquirer" boss David Pecker

testified that his publication paid for stories to quash them. Rowan Farrow who wrote an entire book about the catch-and-kill scheme says this story became public because of investigative journalism and sources wanting to speak up. He spoke earlier with our Anderson Cooper.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROWAN FARROW, CONTRIBUTING WRITER, "THE NEW YORKER": I think it's meaningful to note that this is a story that came out through investigative reporting first, not just at the "New Yorker" where we broke some of these stories, but also a whole circle of publications. The "Wall Street Journal" did amazing work exposing the first stories about Stormy Daniels. That's worth noting because it is a reaffirmation of how important the press is to our democracy.

And a lot of us who worked on this story, you also were in receipt of some of this when you did your interview with Karen McDougal, really got a lot of blowback. When I was first exposing the rumor of the love child and the suppression of that story, the Karen McDougal details, the Enquirer and AMI, they came after me so hard. And it was my job at the time to not linger on that or talk about it publicly too much. But I do think it's worth noting now in retrospect because it was a hard price to pay. It messed me up for a long time and I'm still kind of recovering from some of the things they did.

COOPER: Have you talked to sources you had in that industry now about this verdict, what they think?

FARROW: Yeah, and it's fascinating because of course the flip side of how vindictive that empire was in going after people is that there were good people within it who became sources for the "Wall Street Journal", for the "New Yorker", for people like you at CNN.

And they helped expose this thing. And that's really meaningful too. And for a lot of those good people who did help with that exposure, what they're telling me even in conversations today is, A, we wish we weren't associated with this sort of filthy enterprise of catching and killing stories for the Enquirer. And B, that they kind of knew at the time that the good people started leaking because they knew that they were too closely associated with something that might not just be sleazy, but also illegal.

COOPER: It's interesting that the jury wanted to hear back testimony from David Pecker. I mean, you've talked all along as we've been talking throughout this trial of Pecker's importance, prosecutors put him first for a reason.

FARROW: Yeah, that's right. And I think in retrospect, it's going to be regarded as a really canny move that the prosecution led with that context because the Stormy Daniels transactions and their concealment don't make sense without first establishing that there was this conspiracy between AMI and Donald Trump, that that meeting at Trump Tower in 2015 really did hatch a plan to subvert the election, as prosecutors said.

[03:55:07]

And the thing about that earlier meeting and the prosecutors telling it to the jury that it's a significant, and the jury then asking afterwards, really was the first bellwether that the verdict was going to go the way it did. I have sources within AMI who told me today when we heard that news, when we heard they were asking about the Trump Tower meeting, asking about Pecker, we understood that the jury bought the premise being given to them by the prosecutor.

COOPER: Which is interesting because Todd Blanch in his closing spent a lot of time basically undercutting, trying to undercut that meeting and undercut the importance of the "National Enquirer" and saying, well, it's absurd to think that the Trump campaign cared so much or thought that this was such an important public meeting. They clearly did. They held this meeting and it was Trump and Cohen approaching Pecker, not Pecker approaching them about how can I help? It was them approaching Pecker about what can you do for the campaign.

FARROW: And that's why it's relevant that so many sources around this, people who were in those rooms or close to those rooms executing these transactions, had these misgivings at the time, knew what it was and saw it the way the prosecution ultimately framed it for this jury.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUNHUBER: All right. Well, it's worth a reminder that the Hush Money trial was just one of the four criminal indictments against Trump, but all of the other cases are in legal limbo.

The Trump-appointed judge overseeing the classified documents case in Florida has indefinitely postponed the trial that was supposed to start this month. The federal election subversion case is on hold while the U.S. Supreme Court considers his claim of presidential immunity and the Georgia election interference case is on hold while Trump and his co-defendants try to disqualify the prosecutor.

All right. Thanks so much for joining me. I'm Kim Brunhuber here in Atlanta. The news continues with Max Foster in London after the break.

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