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Trump Is OK Going To Jail; Israel Pushback On Ceasefire Plan With Hamas; Hunter Biden Is Set To Stand Trial In Delaware; Jessica Dean Interviews Timothy Naftali; CNN's Coy Wire Discusses Division III World Series, Stanley Cup Playoffs, WNBA And Birmingham Southern College. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired June 02, 2024 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:00:57]

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: You're in the "CNN Newsroom." Hi everyone, I'm Jessica Dean in Washington. Convicted felon and former president Donald Trump is still six weeks away from finding out what his sentence will be in his historic hush money conviction. But Trump says he'd be okay with serving prison time this morning in the only interview he's done since being convicted. The current Republican candidate for president warned Fox News a harsh sentence could lead to anger from his supporters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, FOX NEWS HOST: The judge could decide to say, hey, house arrest, or even jail.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It could --

HEGSETH: -- how do you face what that could --

TRUMP: I'm okay with it. I saw one of my lawyers the other day on television saying, oh no, you don't want to do that to the president. I said, don't -- you don't beg for anything. You just, the way it is.

I don't know that the public would stand it, you know. I don't -- I'm not sure the public would stand for it with a --

UNKNOWN: So, you could try house arrest or --

TRUMP: I think it would be tough for the public to take. You know, at a certain point, there's a breaking point.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: Joining us now, CNN senior political analyst and senior editor for "The Atlantic," Ron Brownstein and CNN senior media reporter Oliver Darcy. Great to have both of you here.

Ron, two things from that clip that we just played. There's the breaking point comment from Trump, which I think, I'm just curious what you think that -- how resonant that is. There's also this change in the way he's responding. Oh, it's no big deal if I have jail time, don't beg. There was no mention of it being unfair.

It's like he wants to have it both ways because he said this whole thing is unfair and wrong and now, he's trying to pretend like he's a little bit more nonchalant about it.

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, let me start with your first point. I mean, when he talked about breaking point, that is the 2024 equivalent, I think, of stand back and stand by to the Proud Boys in 2020, which ultimately led us -- help lead us to January 6th. I think he's very clearly calling on, you know, suggesting to his supporters that they do, in fact, engage in violence if he is sentenced to prison.

Kind of similar to what we saw a couple of days ago from Speaker Mike Johnson, when he said in another Fox interview that he expects the Republican Supreme Court justices to overturn this in some way. I mean, all of this is various kinds of signaling to the coalition, not only to kind of build political momentum out of opposite to this, but also to kind of, I think, you know, point them about where they expect them to go.

DEAN: Yeah, and Oliver, during that Fox interview, Trump was also asked about seeking revenge if he was reelected. And here's what he said about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: It's a very interesting question. My revenge will be success and I mean that. But it's awfully hard when you see what they've done. These people are so evil.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: Oliver, what do you make of him selecting Fox News for this interview? And who is he exactly trying to reach? Because Fox News is not Newsmax, it's Fox. And what do you make of the message he's delivering on that channel?

OLIVER DARCY, CNN SENIOR MEDIA REPORTER: Well, it's not surprising he chose Fox because it is his biggest propaganda outlet. And he is obviously not wanting to face some hard questions. He got a softball interview and that's what he wanted there.

I think it's really disturbing the reaction we're seeing among his media allies in the wake of this verdict. It's not just that they're attacking the verdict or even the judicial system. It's that they're really inflaming the desires of retribution, of revenge among Trump's supporters. They're saying that this is akin to what happens in dictatorships. They're throwing around the term banana republic like it's normal.

And they're even, you know, floating the idea that Trump should release a list of Democrats that he would arrest and throw in jail if he were to come into office. You know, this is obviously alarming rhetoric. It's disturbing rhetoric, but it's become the commonplace in right wing media.

[17:05:00]

Even on Fox News, you had Jesse Watters, the main primetime star there, talking about how they want to vanquish evil forces within the country on the night of the verdict.

I mean, this is becoming commonplace and they're setting the stage for this for audiences to believe that this is not only warranted behavior, that they need to go after Democrats and weaponize governments, but it's necessary behavior that they have to do it to bring the system, you know, in their eyes back to norms. And that's really chilling, Jessica.

DEAN: And Ron, why have Trump and his allies been so successful at convincing a not insignificant amount of the American population, all of those things that Oliver just laid out?

BROWNSTEIN: Yeah, I mean, you know, in many ways they are pushing, I think, at an open door. I mean, at the core of Trump's coalition are voters who believe the country that they have known, in effect, has been taken from them, you know, by changes in kind of society, but also literally by the argument that Democrats are rigging and stealing and taking away their power.

I mean, the fact that so many Republican voters believe this is an illegitimate verdict is an outgrowth of the fact that three quarters of Republican voters believe Joe Biden didn't win the 2020 election. And it's partially in the world that Oliver can describe. I mean, they are living in a kind of a closed media bubble. But it's also, I think, because, as I said, they are pushing these arguments are pushing at an open door.

They are affirming the core conviction that binds together most of the Trump coalition, the idea that America was great at some point in the past and that various forces have been kind of, you know, stealing that America from us, the real Americans. I just go back to what he said at his rally the night before the runoff in Georgia in in 2021, when he said, this is our country and they are stealing it from us through rigging and taking elections.

And that is the argument. And that's why I think each time something like this comes up, it simply feeds into that preexisting narrative and kind of superstructure that he's built.

DEAN: And there's a new CBS News poll, Oliver, that shows 56 percent of U.S. adults, to Ron's point here, think Trump got a fair trial. So 56 percent of all U.S. adults think it was fair. Fifty-four percent of independents agree with that. Eighty six percent of Republicans think this was unfair. And so, Oliver, how much of that can be blamed on and explained by a media diet and what people's media diet is? And is that enough to explain the schism there?

DARCY: I mean, I don't see how you cannot blame the media diets. If you look at where Republicans primarily get their news, it's places like Fox News and then it's other places, you know, more fringe and extreme places like Steve Bannon's "War Room" podcast. This is where they're getting their news. And if you watch these channels, if you listen to the rhetoric that's happening on talk radio, it's very clear why they believe that the country is being stolen from them, why they believe that Biden is an evil man who's wreaking havoc on the country.

This is what they're inundated with, the kind of rhetoric they're inundated with on an hourly basis. And so, I mean, I think it would be shocking, really, quite frankly, if they didn't believe this stuff, right? And so 86 percent of the Republican Party believing this stuff is not surprising. And you have to remember, too, that this has been going on for years and years and years.

This has been a very lengthy disinformation operation, if you think of it like that. So when people consume this stuff over and over and over again, even if you are someone who's quite smart, it really wears you down.

DEAN: And Ron, some Republicans, Governor Chris Sununu of New Hampshire is one of them, are saying that they are going to vote for Trump after they've spent months railing against him. Nikki Haley is another one. But here here's a clip of Governor Sununu.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: Donald Trump is now a convicted felon. Are you comfortable voting for him in November?

CHRIS SUNUNU, GOVERNOR OF NEW HAMPSHIRE: Oh, sure. People in America want change. They do. This is how bad Joe Biden is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: So, Ron, I'm thinking about the madder Republicans who can't support, don't support somebody like Chris Sununu, who they don't consider to be a, quote, "real, you know, MAGA Republican." And then you think about -- and then, yeah, RINO. You think about independent voters who may be leaned Republican or do lean Republican who watch something like that. Do they get frustrated at -- you've been telling us for months, somebody like that's been saying for months how ill- equipped Donald Trump is to be for president -- is to be president. And yet here you are saying, oh, yeah, I'll vote for him.

BROWNSTIEN: Yeah. Well, look, I mean, we know that negative partisanship is a very powerful force in modern American politics, and many voters in each coalition are motivated more by a desire to stop the other side than necessarily a warm embrace of their own.

[17:10:00]

But Sununu just kind of bending the knee there and collapsing like Nikki Haley did is, I think, first of all, a reminder that whatever level of internal resistance there was to Donald Trump in a first term, you know, Paul Ryan criticizing some of the things he did when he was speaker of the of the House, that is going to be almost completely erased in a second term. I mean, even Susan Collins joined the herd condemning this this

verdict. I mean, I think the clear message of the last few days is that there would be virtually no resistance from congressional or, for that matter, state level Republicans, almost no matter what Trump does, which is especially noteworthy given that as we've talked about before, in many ways, he is running on a more extreme agenda than he did in 2016 or 2020.

When you ask about the electoral impact of this, I think the two things are true. I do think that over time for independent voters and voters who are kind of most loosely attached to Trump in the current polling, the idea of electing a convicted felon is going to weigh on them. I mean, the idea that a convicted felon would be the chief law enforcement officer, the commander in chief, is not something that is going to be easy for everyone who now says they are voting for Trump to kind of accept.

But the voters who are most likely to be moved by this, Jessica, are also deeply negative on Biden's performance, deeply discontented about the economy and overwhelmingly think he is too old. And so it's going to be a glacial struggle here in terms of the speed of movement, I think, because you do have the voters who are going to be most unnerved by this are also pretty down on Biden and they may be receptive to some of the kind of arguments that Sununu is making.

On the other hand, they'll be receptive to the argument from the Biden campaign that says you cannot have a convicted felon as president. Are you really ready to look at your kids after doing that?

DEAN: Yeah, it is going to be -- in the end, it's going to be about what they prioritize, right, and what they deem is the most important priority, which will be very interesting to see. Oliver Darcy and Ron Brownstein, thanks so much. We appreciate it.

BROWNSTEIN: Thank you.

DEAN: The U.S. says it is still waiting on Hamas to respond to a newly proposed ceasefire deal from Israel as top Israeli officials continue to push back on the plan and how it would affect the future of Gaza. You're in the "CNN Newsroom."

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[17:16:56]

DEAN: New today, the Maldives government says it will ban Israelis from entering the island over the war in Gaza after the country's president last week condemned an Israeli airstrike on a refugee camp in Rafah. In response, Israel's foreign affairs minister is telling citizens to avoid traveling to the Maldives and urging those already there to leave. It comes amid rising conflict over a potential peace plan between Israel and Hamas, with Israel's defense minister today warning that the country will not accept any deal which allows Hamas to rule Gaza.

His comments echoing those of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who pushed back on the plan laid out by President Biden on Friday. Here's journalist Elliot Gotkine with the latest now from Tel Aviv.

ELLIOTT GOTKINE, CNN JOURNALIST: After President Biden conveyed Israel's ceasefire proposal to the world and then followed up with a helpful graphic in a tweet, there were inevitable reactions from across the political spectrum in Israel, first and foremost from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. He took the rare step of issuing a press statement on the Jewish Sabbath on Saturday in which he said that Israel would never agree to a cessation of hostilities, something that comes in phase two of the three phase ceasefire proposal until such time as Israel's war objectives have been met.

He said that unless Israel's conditions for a cessation of hostilities were met, it would not agree to a ceasefire. Now, these conditions are, number one, to destroy Hamas's military and governance capabilities, number two, to get all the hostages who were abducted by Hamas on October the 7th back into Israel, and number three, to ensure that the Gaza Strip no longer poses a threat to Israel.

So, I think what Netanyahu was trying to do was to clarify that the ceasefire proposal that he himself would have signed off on as part of Israel's war cabinet does not preclude Israel from meeting those war objectives. So, the ball, as far as the ceasefire proposal for now, is in Hamas's court.

I think at the same time, Netanyahu was trying to preempt the inevitable blowback against the ceasefire proposal from the far-right members of his governing coalition. Those reactions, blowback, duly came at the end of the Jewish Sabbath when they said that this proposal seemed like to them a capitulation to Hamas. It would be a defeat for Israel. It would be a reckless deal. And if it goes ahead, they would pull their parties out of the governing coalition.

Now, if they were to make good on that threat, that would likely lead to the collapse of Netanyahu's government. It would lead to fresh elections, which opinion polls suggest Netanyahu would lose. So no doubt that is something else that is playing on his mind. At the same time, over the weekend, Netanyahu said he was thrilled to be invited to speak to Congress by the top four leaders, Democrat and Republicans, of Congress on a date in the future.

He said that he will convey the justness of Israel's cause in its war against terrorism, in its war against Hamas, which the U.S. designates as a terrorist organization. I suppose to also bring on board any wavering lawmakers, particularly Democrats, who may be feeling that Israel, for example, is not using U.S. weapons shipments as it ought to.

[17:20:00]

At the same time, I think Netanyahu is happy to be doing this because by being on the world stage, speaking to U.S. lawmakers, he can once again portray himself to the Israeli public as the only man who can lead Israel on the international stage, that he has the ear of U.S. lawmakers and the White House. And at the same time, he's the only man that can both maintain the Israel-U.S. relationship and stand up to the United States when it's not in Israel's interests. Elliott Gotkine, CNN, Tel Aviv.

DEAN: Thank you, Elliot. And now let's get the White House response to all of us. Joining us here is CNN's Priscilla Alvarez. And Priscilla, the national security spokesman, John Kirby, today seemed to kind of brush aside any negative reaction that this potential peace plan has been getting.

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Which is largely in line with where U.S. officials have been. They've tried to express a tone of optimism over the course of these talks, which have been tenuous and difficult. Now, he said in his interview that he is still or the White House is still waiting for the official response from Hamas. And until then, they're still holding out some optimism. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KIRBY, WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY COMMUNICATIONS ADVISER: Here we are right now is that proposal, an Israeli proposal, has been given to Hamas. It was done on Thursday night, our time. We're waiting for an official response from Hamas. We would note that publicly Hamas officials came out and welcomed this proposal. We have every expectation that if Hamas agrees to the proposal, as was transmitted to them, an Israeli proposal, that Israel would say yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ALVAEZ: Now, to remind our viewers, the plan that was laid out by President Biden on Friday includes three different phases, the first being the release of hostages, the women, the elderly, the wounded for that six-week temporary ceasefire. The second phase would ideally include a ceasefire with negotiations ongoing and the release of all hostages, again, in exchange for Palestinian prisoners. And the third will be the reconstruction of Gaza.

This doesn't happen quickly. It takes time and it is quite challenging. And there are still a lot of details that need to be worked out here. But U.S. officials are making very clear how urgent the moment is. The president himself calling it a decisive moment and him coming out at all to lay this out really told us a lot about the moment that we are in, where there is enormous pressure on all parties to reach an agreement here.

And also, more importantly, to stop that fighting in Gaza, which is where a lot of world leaders have been. And the president will be going to France this week. He's going to meet with the French president, who has expressed support for this plan. He's also said that the war in Gaza must end. And Jessica, the U.S. has found itself at times isolated from its allies on this particular issue, on backing Israel amid this devastation in Gaza. So, this is expected to be a topic of discussion moving into the week.

DEAN: All right, we'll keep an eye on it, Priscilla Alvarez. Thanks so much. Coming up, another historic trial will take place this week that could

impact what happens in November. What we know about Hunter Biden's upcoming federal trial and its potential impact on his father's reelection bid.

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[17:27:16]

DEAN: Just days after President Biden told the country no one is above the law; his own son will stand trial in the Biden's home state of Delaware starting tomorrow. And it is a case that has major ramifications for Hunter Biden, who could face real jail time if he's convicted. It's also a case with some potential political implications as the president seeks reelection in November. CNN's Katelyn Polantz has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER (voice-over): The son of the sitting president on trial in another criminal case with big political implications.

HUNTER BIDEN, SON OF JOE BIDEN: They ridiculed my struggle with addiction.

POLANTZ (voice-over): Hunter Biden's addiction and purchase of a gun in October 2018 is at the heart of this case. The Justice Department accusing him of lying on gun purchasing forms that required him to attest he wasn't addicted to drugs. A special counsel brought the case last year after a prior deal fell apart in dramatic fashion at his plea hearing.

MERRICK GARLAND, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: I'm here today to announce the appointment of David Weiss as a special counsel.

POLANTZ (voice-over): On Monday, jury selection begins, potentially a challenging task in his hometown of Wilmington, Delaware. Federal prosecutors plan to highlight a part of his memoir where he writes about struggling with drug addiction around the time, he bought the gun.

H. BIDEN: I had returned that fall of 2018 after my most recent relapse in California with the hope of getting clean through a new therapy and reconciling with Hallie. Neither happened.

POLANTZ (voice-over): And they have evidence from the week of the gun purchase. Hunter Biden texting he was waiting for a dealer and sleeping on a car smoking crack. The trial also may feature testimony from the women in Hunter Biden's life, his ex-wife, his brother's widow and a woman he pays child support to. Prosecutors say the women witnessed his drug addiction.

While Joe Biden continues to seek reelection, the president has avoided commenting directly on the prosecution of his son.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm very proud of my son.

POLANTZ (voice-over): Yet the trial is likely to dredge up more Republican attacks on the Bidens, including about a laptop containing embarrassing messages and images that prosecutors have obtained.

REP. ELISE STEFANIK (R-NY): The Biden crime family sold out America and the American people have had enough.

POLANTZ (voice-over): Republicans have been investigating Hunter Biden's business dealings as part of an impeachment probe of President Biden that's come up short.

H. BIDEN: MAGA Republicans have impugned my character, invaded my privacy, attacked my wife, my children, my family and my friends.

POLANTZ (voice-over): After his trial on felony gun charges ends, Hunter Biden is set to face a second one in federal court in California on tax charges.

[17:30:00]

DEAN: And Katelyn Polantz is here with us now. Katelyn, we just watched your excellent piece there, but I want to dig into some more details that you kind of laid out there. These charges could carry up to 25 years in prison. Is there any sort of chance that they try to strike a plea deal or something?

POLANTZ: Well, just at this point, we have nothing that says that they're not going to trial.

DEAN: Uh-hmm.

POLANTZ: The lawyers that Hunter Biden has going into him and going in with him to court in Delaware tomorrow for jury selection are the type of experienced trial attorneys that secure acquittals on defendant's home turf. In fact, Abbe Lowell, the lead attorney here, he actually had Bob Menendez acquitted at a previous trial in New Jersey in federal court. So, they are raring to go here for a trial.

But this is a really difficult situation for Hunter Biden because he's not just facing these charges. He also is fighting charges in federal court in California related to tax crimes or alleged tax crimes.

And so, if he does have a conviction in this case, if that ends up being the result here at this trial, it's only supposed to last a few days, then he's going to have a lot to think about going into a second one because if you lose one case at trial, you could potentially face a sentence that includes jail time. Things get much more difficult for you once you have a second trial.

So, a really dicey situation for defendant Hunter Biden here.

DEAN: And, you know, there's so much personal detail involved in this --

POLANTZ: Yeah. DEAN: -- particular -- particular case for reasons you just outlined in that piece. You know, we heard a lot of, not to compare apples to apples, but we did hear a lot of intimate details from Stormy Daniels, President Trump, what that was like in a courtroom. And now there is a potential to hear a lot of personal details in this courtroom.

POLANTZ: Yeah, that's how you make, if you're a prosecutor, some of these cases come alive in the Trump case as well as in this case for Hunter Biden. They're both about documents.

For Hunter Biden's case, it's about him signing forms when he purchased a gun in October of 2018 that attested he wasn't addicted to drugs. But the way that the prosecutors are structuring it, they're telling the judge, we want to really put on display at this trial for the jury the extent of Hunter Biden's drug addiction, the son of the sitting president. And there's a lot of discussion about his history of being a crack addict, his struggle with addiction, especially in this time, 2018, a time when he wanted to get clean and he wasn't able to.

And some of the testimony is really going to get into a history here that people across the country have heard, and especially people in Delaware where the Bidens are so well known, that he had a relationship with his brother's widow, Hallie, at the time. His ex- wife is very likely to testify here. So quite a lot being put on display for these -- these gun charges.

DEAN: And how much, do you think, they're going to rely on this line of thought? If it wasn't for my last name, I wouldn't be being prosecuted.

POLANTZ: Well, there's only a certain extent that they can even sort of suggest that to a jury. They can't really. It is about the law and the facts here, and that's where the arguments will be in front of the jury. But we have heard that in the public sphere quite a lot from Donald Trump's lawyers, from Hunter Biden's lawyers, that these are not the types of cases that typically get charged.

But prosecutorial discretion, in this case, there was a special counsel appointed by the Justice Department to determine whether they wanted to bring this case against Hunter Biden. And this case, as well as all of the cases against Donald Trump, they're stress tests.

DEAN: Uh-hmm.

POLANTZ: They go through grand juries. And there's a reason, too, why these men are choosing to go to jury trials instead of cutting a plea deal or something like that, and some sort of -- working out some sort of deal that they can carry forward. Having it go before a jury gives people the chance to argue, I am innocent.

DEAN: Uh-hmm. And before I let you go, I do want to ask about Senator Bob Menendez, who is a Democrat of New Jersey, who's also on trial. He's on trial for -- for bribery. What have you heard so far in that case? POLANTZ: Yeah, this case has a lot of evidence, a lot of text messages, emails, voicemails, and it is about his ties to Egypt in an alleged bribery scheme as a sitting senator so far in this trial that's taking place in -- in Manhattan, so just down the street from where Donald Trump was on trial.

This Democratic senator and his wife are one of the subjects of the trial. She is set to be tried later on, but her ability and interest that is documented in communications with him, trying to connect him to Egyptians, is something that is being put on display for that jury.

So, again, these personal connections are really part of these trials of political figures. Some really interesting court proceedings.

[17:35:01]

DEAN: For sure. In cases that involve just so many documents, there's a lot of humanity in all of this, too. All right, Katelyn Polantz, thanks so much.

CNN is exploring the shadowy world of deception and espionage that existed between the U.S. and Russia during the Cold War when tensions between the countries reached dangerous heights. Next, we're going to talk with presidential historian Tim Naftali about this new look inside this contentious era here in the "CNN Newsroom."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:40:10]

DEAN: Tonight, a special sneak peek at our new CNN Original Series "Secrets and Spies: A Nuclear Game," exploring the high stakes spy versus spy going on during the 1980s Cold War, including firsthand accounts from two of the most notorious double agents. It's in the four-part series, and here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Yuri Andropov is the head of the Soviet Intelligence Service, the KGB.

UNKNOWN: The KGB have been running the Russian life for years. Andropov was getting more and more convinced of the menacing West. He was a full-blown KGB person who thought that it's either us or them and basically it better be them.

TIMOTHY NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Yuri Andropov concludes that the superpowers are on the verge of a nuclear war. And so, he begins a process of collecting information that would be indicators of the approach of nuclear war.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): This running tally of signs is called Operation RYAN.

(END VIDEO CLIP) DEAN: Joining us now, one of the experts featured in the series, we just saw his face right there, CNN presidential historian Tim Naftali. Tim, great to have you here. This looks like such an interesting show. At the end of the clip, you mentioned Operation RYAN. It's a main focus of the documentary. Tell people a little bit about it.

NAFTALI: Well, most people, when they think about the most dangerous moments of the Cold War, they think about the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962, and indeed, that was a very dangerous moment. Most people, however, don't know about the dangers of the early 1980s when the two superpowers misunderstood each other completely. And what made it even more dangerous, the Soviets were convinced that the United States -- it was not a question of if but when the United States would launch a first nuclear strike on the Soviet Union.

Operation RYAN was a collecting program, a collection program by the KGB to prove that a surprise nuclear attack was going to happen. So, in a sense, normally, intelligence services do their best work when they try to understand a problem. In this case, the intelligence community of the Soviet Union was trying to prove a paranoid assumption about the Reagan administration.

That put the two superpowers in a very, very dangerous position because if you think the other side is on the verge of attacking you, that might be a reason for you to attack first, so making what we call preventive war possible. That was the psychological drama of the 80s, and that's what this show lays out tonight and over the next four weeks.

DEAN: Hmm. And this series also features rare archival interviews, never before heard audio, all from the double agents themselves. We also have insight from former CIA, KGB officers. So, there's a lot that people are going to learn in all of this. What did you find the most fascinating?

NAFTALI: Well, you know, we forget about the -- the motivations of people who spy. And we can talk about dangerous moments, we can talk about the role of intelligence, it sometimes seems a little bit theoretical.

But when you hear from Oleg Gordievsky, a KGB officer who, starting in the mid- 1970s, was also working on behalf of British intelligence, you hear about, first of all, why he decided to spy for the great enemy, and then you hear about how he learns how close the superpowers are getting to an accidental war because neither Moscow nor Washington actually wanted a nuclear war. So, he is finding this out and trying to communicate to the British and through them to the Americans, hey, be careful, the Soviets are really jittery now. And so only through his voice, only through his actual, these are recordings of his voice, can you hear him tell this very dramatic story.

On the American side, we hear -- we'll hear from Aldrich Ames, an American trader who betrays the United States and the Western bloc for actually monetary reasons. Oleg Gordievsky chooses to help the West for ideological reasons. Aldrich Ames just needs more money. And you hear from him why he turns on his country at what would turn out to be the end of the Cold War.

So, getting inside the minds of these people who are really not well known, but are key to understanding great power events makes this a human drama as well as a historical drama.

[17:45:04]

DEAN: Absolutely. I also, before we go, want to ask you about this week marking the 80th anniversary of D-Day. Of course, that led to the defeat of the Nazis in World War II. We know President Biden is headed to France. What do you expect his message to be, especially during this time when -- when Western democracy really seems to be under extreme threat?

NAFTALI: Well, you know, I say this in the most nonpartisan way possible. We are seeing a normalization of fascist-like language in Europe and to some extent in our own country, too. I suspect that the president will remind people of the cost of not taking fascist language seriously, how the world -- how the world did not deal with the threats to democracies in the 1930s and the cost, the huge human cost to so many countries in the 1940s in World War II.

It's -- I'm sure it will be an opportunity for him to talk about the importance of liberty and democracy, and why dictatorship is a threat to us all. Why -- when you hear people who aren't interested anymore in the rule of law, who have doubts about the importance of courts, and who talk about the single value of one strong person being able to make decisions for an entire group of people, that -- that begins to sound a lot like the 1930s.

So, revisiting Normandy, where so many Americans, Canadians and British and French lost their lives in the fight against tyranny, going back there is a dramatic way to underscore that one of the lessons of history is to take dictatorship seriously and to do everything you can to prevent them from taking root in your own country.

DEAN: All right. Tim Naftali, always great to see you. Thanks so much.

NAFTALI: Thank you, Jessica.

DEAN: And once again, be sure to tune in to the all-new CNN Original Series "Secrets and Spies: A Nuclear Game." It premieres tonight at 10. More news when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:51:59]

DEAN: It is game on for one college baseball team, even though the school itself doesn't exist anymore. The doors at Birmingham Southern closed permanently on Friday, but the school's team still has a shot at winning a championship after some late game heroics. CNN's Coy Wire has that story and more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) COY WIRE, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: And the Florida Panthers are the first team since 2009 to go to back-to-back Stanley Cup finals the year after losing. Florida facing the New York Rangers in front of their home fans Saturday night. Sam Bennett getting the Cats on the board first in the first with a thunderous one timer from the circle. Rangers had the NHL's best regular season record. Didn't matter. Vladimir Tarasenko adding an insurance goal in the third. And Panthers fans would throw plastic rats onto the ice after the two to one win, continuing the longstanding tradition dating back to the team's first cup final appearance in 1996. The Panthers now face the winner of the Oilers Star Series with a chance to win the first title in team history.

ALEKSANDER BARKOV, FLORIDA PANTHERS CAPTAIN: We all know the job is not finished. We still want to get that big prize and work really hard for it.

MATTHEW TKACHUK, FLORIDA PANTHERS FORWARD: It's special for us to be back in this position after such a tough loss last year. I just remember going around the locker room after losing game five against Vegas, going on and telling everybody, you know, we'll be back, we'll be back. Well, we're back right now. So, we're really excited.

WIRE (voice-over): And check this out. Coach Paul Maurice telling his players, don't touch the trophy. Last year, they touched the conference's Prince of Wales trophy, then lost in the Stanley Cup final. It's longstanding NHL tradition that you never touch a trophy until you lift the Stanley Cup after winning it all.

Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese facing off in the WNBA for the first time since March Madness, when 20 some million people tuned in to see their college games. Clark finishing with 11 points, becoming the first rookie to score 150 with 50 rebounds and 50 assists in their first 10 games. Reese making history to 13 rebounds, eight of them offensive, the most by a rookie in Chicago Sky history.

But then controversy. Chennedy Carter making a shot and then blindsiding Clark. The two- time national player of the year tumbled to the floor. Reese and teammates celebrating fever, though, would celebrate in the end, getting their first home win, 71 to 70. Here's Clark on the controversial foul.

CAITLIN CLARK, INDIANA FEVER GUARD: I wasn't expecting it, but I think it's just like just respond, come down, let your play do the talking. It is what it is. It's a physical game. Go make the free throw and then execute on offense.

CHENNEDY CARTER, CHICAGO SKY GUARD: I ain't answering no Caitlin Clark questions.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Did she say anything to you?

CARTER: I don't know what she said.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): What did you say to her?

CARTER: I didn't say anything.

WIRE: Finally, a story fit for a movie script due to financial difficulties. Birmingham Southern College closed permanently on Friday after being open since 1856. But the baseball team earned a spot in the Division Three College World Series. They lost their first game on Friday, the day the school closed. One more loss and they're done. But Saturday night against Randolph-Macon with the score tied in the bottom of the ninth.

[17:55:00]

Jackson Webster keeping what he's calling the baseball miracle alive, hitting that game, winning home run. They were trailing seven to four at one point in this game. And check out the wild scenes back home in Alabama. The Panthers have another game this afternoon at 3:00 Eastern. If they're victorious in another must win game, they'll play again Monday. Either way, an inspiring run despite losing their school. He said it feels like they've lost a family member, but that they've been bonded by adversity.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DEAN: All right. Coy, what a story. Thanks so much. Also noting the WNBA later upgraded that foul call after Chennedy Carter knocked out -- knocked Caitlin Clark onto the hardwoods. It's now considered a flagrant foul, which is the lead -- which the league defines as -- quote -- "unnecessary" and/or "excessive contact" committed by a player against an opponent.

Former President Trump and his legal team are gearing up for his sentencing next month. And as usual, his team is trying to sound upbeat about the timing while they promise to appeal his historic conviction. You're in the "CNN Newsroom."

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