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CNN International: IDF Rescues Four Israeli Hostages During Deadly Raid In Gaza; Blinken Meets With Netanyahu Following Hostage Rescue Operation; Closing Arguments Underway In Hunter Biden Gun Trial; Macron Calls Snap French Elections After Loss To Far Right; Trump Continues To Attack Justice System After Convictions; Dangerous Venezuelan Gang Operating In The US. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired June 10, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:33]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: It's 8:00 p.m. in London, 9:00 p.m. in Paris, 10:00 p.m. in Tel Aviv, 3:00 p.m. here in Washington. I'm Jim Sciutto. Thanks so much for joining me today on CNN NEWSROOM.

And let's get right to the news.

We begin in Israel as U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken is on the ground there meeting with leaders amid a renewed diplomatic push for a ceasefire deal. His visit comes after four Israeli hostages who had been held since they were taken captive back on October 7th, were rescued in an IDF operation, but at what cost? Gaza health ministry reports at least 274 people were killed, hundreds more injured as a result of Israel's rescue operation.

Israel says the number of dead was below 100. CNN is unable to verify the casualty figures. Eyewitnesses described the aftermath as hell on Earth.

On Sunday, a key member of Israel's war cabinet, an opposition leader, Benny Gantz, left the unity government after Netanyahu failed to propose a post-war plan for Gaza. Blinken is meeting with Gantz tomorrow after the U.S. urged him not to leave the government.

CNN national security correspondent, Kylie Atwood, joins me now.

Kylie, Blinken met with Netanyahu. He's going to meet with Gantz. He'll meet with the president there, Herzog.

I wonder what exactly is he trying to achieve there? And does he believe he can get a ceasefire deal across the finish line?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, listen, it is a delicate moment, Jim.

And so, the secretary of state is trying to meet with players in the region to make sure that they are all on the same page in pushing towards trying to get Hamas to accept the ceasefire proposal that's been put on the table. We've heard from the spokesperson, from the State Department, reading out the two-hour meeting that the secretary of state had here this evening with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, one of the things he reiterated in that meeting as the United States and other world leaders stand in favor of that comprehensive proposal that President Biden laid out about ten days ago, that U.S. officials have said Israel put on the table for Hamas to respond to.

He also notably said in that meeting that it's important to prevent this conflict from spreading. Of course, that comes as we have seen, that tension between Israel and Lebanon rise along the border with the along the northern border here in Israel. And the secretary of state said in the meeting that the proposal that's on the table could unlock the possibility of calm along that northern border. So that is significant.

Two points that he made before coming here to Israel, the first of which is that he believes the best way to get out the most number of hostages held by Hamas is to make sure that this is actually a proposal that can be agreed to the most effective way to get out the highest number of hostages is to do that. Of course, he also said that it's important for all the countries in the region to continue pressuring Hamas to accept this deal on the table. He met with his Egyptian counterparts and President Sisi earlier today. He didn't say if those Egyptian counterparts have been getting good signals in their conversations with Hamas recently, but he did say they've had contact with Hamas.

Listen to what he told me earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: I can't go into the details of our conversations today except to say that our Egyptian counterparts were in communication with Hamas as early as recently as a few hours ago.

And so I got -- again, I'm not going to -- not going to get any details about that. But I think Egypt, the United States, other countries reasonably believed that, again, we should be able to get to yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ATWOOD: Now, Jim, to your question as to if he thinks that they can get to a deal, this is simply a live ball with the U.S. and the other countries, players here waiting for Hamas to respond. We truly don't know when that's going to happen. Notably tomorrow here in Israel before departing for Jordan and Qatar, the secretary of state is going to be meeting with Benny Gantz. He is that member of this really war cabinet who resigned over the weekend in protest? Of the approach that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has taken to Gaza.

SCIUTTO: I suppose the trouble, Kylie, as we've been in this space for so long weeks, deal or no deal question how this resolves itself.

[15:05:07]

Kylie, thanks so much.

I do want to bring in CNN's Paula Hancocks, who is in Tel Aviv as well.

Paula, a successful operation, a daring one. It rescued four hostages, but it was also one of the deadliest days. So far in this war with even by Israeli estimates below 100 Palestinian casualties, what more do we know about the specifics of the operation.

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, we heard from one eyewitness on the ground who said that they saw the Israeli military coming in dressed as Hamas fighters, dressed as civilians, trying to stay under the radar, daytime operation which is unusual. It's usually under the cover of darkness, but the Israeli military said that they spent weeks planning for this, that they are coming under increased at criticism though, from neighboring countries, also from E.U.'s top diplomat, at the sheer number of Palestinian casualties.

But this is a look at the operation as it panned out.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HANCOCKS (voice-over): A complex mission that achieved its objectives according to Israel, extensive airpower, hundreds of personnel, weeks of intelligence gathering and training to rescue four Israeli hostages held by Hamas in two residential buildings in central Gaza. This the moment IDF headquarters learn the hostages have been rescued.

For those on the ground, it was the deadliest day in six months, according to Gaza officials, capturing the moment of impact of Israeli airstrikes, sustained gunfire followed. The IDF says there were fierce gun battles with Hamas fighters throughout the operation, but did not provide evidence of this claim.

Then a constant stream of dead and injured arrived at two nearby hospitals the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital, overwhelmed by the sheer number of trauma cases, the breakdown of fighters versus civilians is unknown. But women and children are seen in every corner of this hospital.

Gaza officials and hospital directors say more than 270 were killed, hundreds more injured sparking cries of a massacre from some countries including the E.U.'s top diplomat.

Israel claims less than 100 died, blaming Hamas for the shockingly high death toll. CNN cannot independently verify either side's figures.

LT. COL. PETER LERNER, IDF SPOKESPERSON: Hamas intentionally puts the hostages in houses of civilians with the house owners in the same houses at the same time.

HANCOCKS: As families of those rescued celebrate, calls for a ceasefire and hostage deal become louder. Even families of those rescued Saturday are not calling for more of these missions.

ORIT MEIR, MOTHER OF RESCUED HOSTAGE: There are still 120 hostages in Gaza and we want a deal now. HANCOCKS: Seven living hostages rescued in three missions in the past eight months, compared to more than 100 released during a one-week ceasefire last November, the United States and others say a hostage deal is the only solution.

JAKE SULLIVAN, U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: The best way to get all of the hostages home and to protect Palestinian civilians is to end this war. And the best way to end this war is for Hamas to say yes to the deal President Biden announced and that Israel has accepted.

HANCOCKS: As residents deal with the devastation left behind in Nuseirat, survivors struggled to understand what happened.

I am 60 years old, this man says, and have never experienced anything like this. A barrage of heavy gunfire, artillery, missiles, rockets. It was something unimaginable to the human mind.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HANCOCKS (on camera): And we just spoke to the doctor who's in charge of the medical treatment for these four hostages. He gave us some details of their time in captivity, saying that they had been beaten by their captors. There was daily torments, physical abuse, also mental and other types according to this door.

He also said that even though they looked outwardly as though they were in good medical condition, they were all malnourished at times, they have no food and they're muscles were starting to waste as well as they had no protein and obviously no chance to move around very much -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Paula Hancocks, thanks so much.

Joining me now to discuss, CNN political and global affairs analyst and "Axios" politics and foreign policy reporter Barak Ravid.

Barak, good to have you on. Thanks so much.

BARAK RAVID, CNN POLITICAL AND GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: I wonder beyond this mission, what the politics of this mission are? Because as Paula noted there, seven hostages released in three missions over the last eight months, as compared to 105 released in that exchange, that one exchange between Israel and Hamas, does this though, convince a portion of the population or perhaps someone government that they don't need a deal or that there's less support for a deal because they could do it via military means as opposed to negotiations?

[15:10:24]

RAVID: I don't think so. Every public opinion poll that's been conducted in the last few days, show that vast majority of the Israeli public is in favor of this hostage deal. Last poll, just last Friday, showed 56 percent of Israelis supporting President Biden speech, where he laid out this is really proposal and only 24 percent opposed to it. I think that all in all, there's still a lot of support.

SCIUTTO: Okay. So lets then talk about the ceasefire deal, hostage deal that Secretary Blinken appears to be devoting so much energy to getting across the finish line. Benny Gantz is now resigned from Netanyahu's government.

What does that mean for the deal? Does it affect the chances of that deal? Or does Netanyahu calculate, he can make his own decision here?

RAVID: I think that it is clear to Netanyahu that Benny Gantz was in favor and also most of the opposition parties are in favor. His problem is with other members of his coalition, radical right-wing members of his coalition. Ministers Itamar Ben Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich who threatened publicly that if this deal goes through, they will topple the coalition and topple the government.

So, Netanyahu is in a phase where its his own political decision whatever he decides is what's going to happen. Again, once Hamas says yes, which it still hasn't.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this, many inside and outside Israel have viewed Netanyahu at times as a lame duck. They said he was finished. More recently, polls seem to be turning a bit more in his favor.

You follow this very closely. Does it look like he might survive this political crisis? Is he getting stronger?

RAVID: Well, first, the political situation is much better than it's been eight months ago. That's obvious every day that passes, his political situation gets better, but there's a big but. The next election in Israel, there's going to be another right-wing, center right, whatever you want to call it, party, that does not exist today. And former Prime Minister Naftali Bennett is going to be part of it, former Minister Gideon Sa'ar is going to be part of it, other people, may be former head of Mossad, Yossi Cohen, is going to be part of it.

And this is the big challenge for Netanyahu because three polls that were published today, just an hour ago, show that if such a party is being -- would be established, Netanyahu's party, Likud, will be devastated in the next election, and he will not be the prime minister.

SCIUTTO: So, when is it most likely that there will be the next election? Gantz, of course, is calling for early elections. He wants them to take place this fall. Is that at all a possibility? I imagined Netanyahu, might calculate, as he often does, longer delay is better for him and his political fortunes.

RAVID: Yeah, if it's up to Netanyahu, the election will happen almost three years from now and, you know, when they're supposed to be according to the law.

But Gantz wants them in the fall. All public opinion polls that would publish tonight show that majority of Israelis want elections to be held in the fall. But Netanyahu will try and delayed as much as possible and he needs to get to the end of July where the Knesset, when the Knesset goes into recess. And when that's the case, he has at least until the end of the year without the possibility of early election.

SCIUTTO: So, before we go, Blinken is back in the Middle East, not the first time he's been there. Is he -- is Israel, is Hamas going to talk? Where do you place the chances of a deal actually being agreed to in the coming days and weeks?

RAVID: I think it's possible. I wouldn't rule it out at all. A lot of it depends on -- actually, all of it depends at the moment on one guy, and that's Hamas leader in Gaza, Yahya Sinwar, and the people who are engaged in the negotiation on Hamas's aside, are the political leaders in Qatar, in Doha, but he's the one in Gaza and he's calling the shots.

And until now, he hasn't responded. Everyone waiting to see what he's going to say.

SCIUTTO: And that's another place we've been for some time.

Barak Ravid, thanks so much for joining me.

RAVID: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Back here in this country, happening right now, the prosecution is making its rebuttal of the defense's closing arguments and Hunter Biden's criminal gun trial.

[15:15:05]

The jury could have the case at any moment. We are live outside the Delaware courthouse right on the other side of this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Closing arguments today in Hunter Biden's federal gun trial, this after the defense decided not to call the president's son to testify on his own behalf. His legal fate will soon be in the hands of a 12-member jury. As a reminder, Hunter Biden faces three counts of illegally purchasing and possessing a gun while addicted to or using drugs. He has pleaded not guilty to those three charges.

CNN's Jessica Schneider has been tracking the case.

Summarize, if you can, the closing arguments for each side.

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: It's really about the timeline here, Jim. The prosecutor saying they don't have to prove in their estimation that Hunter Biden was using drugs on the exact day that he bought that gun in October 2018? They're saying it this way. They're saying they merely that he needed to have been actively engaged in drugs around the time of that gun purchase.

SCIUTTO: Around the time, OK, and that would count as addiction or using?

SCHNEIDER: Exactly.

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

SCHNEIDER: In there, you know, that he had falsified those forms that are at the center of this case. They also pointing to those messages that he had allegedly with his drug dealer right around the time of that gun purchase.

Now, Hunter Biden's lawyers have said, no, no, that was actually just to have him get out of seeing Hallie Biden. He wasn't really meeting with his drug dealers. So that's a little bit in dispute here.

You know, Hunter Biden's attorneys, they're basically saying prosecutors are trying to pull a fast one on you guys. They have not adequately explained a timeline here and most importantly, the defense attorneys have said, no one that you've heard from in the -- more than a dozen witnesses have specifically pinpointed Hunter Biden using drugs right around this time period in October 2018, and that's what they're hanging their hat on.

[15:20:02]

SCIUTTO: Okay. So how did the prosecution close their argument then?

SCHNEIDER: Well, they're still rebutting this. They kind of -- the last thing that we've heard them talk about is they pointed at Hunter Biden's daughter saying the defense team brought her up on the stand and the prosecution said she couldn't definitively tell you that he was sober around this time.

She danced around it. She pointed to maybe but she could not definitively tell you that he wasn't using --

SCIUTTO: Those uncomfortable text exchanges between her and her father around that time as well?

SCHNEIDER: Yeah, exactly.

SCIUTTO: So if he is found guilty and by the way, we don't know how the jury will decide, what happens immediately? Does not go to jail right away?

SCHNEIDER: No. And it's possible he doesn't go to jail at all. I mean, he does face up to 25 years if convicted on all three counts, up to ten years, if convicted on just one of the counts.

SCIUTTO: Which is very much an outlier --

SCHNEIDER: Very much an outlier, and the fact that he has no criminal history will actually help his sentencing. But his team will also likely appeal and any sentence that came about would be paused while these appeals played out. So it's not likely he'll see jail time, even if he is given jail time, at least immediately.

SCIUTTO: It sounds a lot like another felony case you were talking about recently. Jessica Schneider, thanks so much.

SCHNEIDER: Yeah.

SCIUTTO: Joining me now to discuss, former Florida judge and professor at Cooley Law School, Jeff Swartz.

So, Jeff, one quick question on one of the final decisions by the defense before we get to the bigger picture here, Hunter Biden did not take the stand today, was that the right call by the defense?

JEFF SWARTZ, FORMER FLORIDA JUDGE: I think it was the right call. There's so much that he said in his own voice and when from reading of his book, that I just don't know what more you would get.

If you're going to get the jurors to feel sorry for him, it's going to come out of his own mouth through the things that even the prosecution put on, and then follow that up with his own witnesses and some of the prosecution witnesses and I don't see what he has to add he can only find himself being cross-examined over and over and over again about a timeline involving when he was involved with drugs.

Here, at least, we know that both sides can't definitive hopefully point to a certain place in time where he was still addicted or as addicted or using the drugs and that may be the reasonable doubt they were looking for.

SCIUTTO: Who do you think has the upper hand going into closing arguments here, and as this case is about to go to the jury?

SWARTZ: I think on an evidentiary basis, more likely than not, I think the government does. But as a juror looking at it, remember -- I think the prosecution made a huge mistake making a point of pointing out Jill Biden, and other members of the family and say, these people don't matter. You're looking at a bunch of family people sitting in the box and being told family doesn't matter. That literally makes no sense to me.

And when you have a juror who in fact was obviously in a family that had add some form of addiction in it and was crying through the opening statement of Abbe, I can only tell you that that person doesn't want to hear family doesn't matter. I think that was a huge mistake on the prosecution's side.

SCIUTTO: Well, it's interesting because on the defense's part does seem to be Abbe Lowell trying to play the opposite game, right? Which is to some degree play on that may be too strong word, but the sympathies of the jury.

SWARTZ: That's correct. And that's what he wants.

Remember, he only needs to find one or two that want to be those jurors that want jury nullification because they don't think that this is something they want to convict somebody of. And send someone to jail because they don't know that he probably will not go to jail right away. And they don't want to do this. And if they hold out long enough, you could find yourself that hung jury that somebody else was looking for.

But I'm not really betting on that. If I had to bet on it, you'll probably have a verdict sometime either later this afternoon, depending on how late they work or first thing tomorrow morning.

SCIUTTO: I mean, fundamentally, there's -- you sign a form, as you're buying a gun. It asked you if you're addicted or using drugs. I believe that's the language there comes down to is there evidence that you were addicted or using drugs? I mean, it's a fairly straightforward proposition for the jury. Is it not even though its an ATF form that requires a person filling out to assess their own section that part of it did he actually filled out the form, there's no -- nobody debated that he didn't fill out the form.

Nobody said he didn't check off the box. The question is, did he really, one, understand what he was doing? It's a strict liability crime, but still, did he really understand what he was doing? Did he really have the intent to defraud the government by way of this form? And if he really believed that some period of time that he was going -- he was off of the drugs, he was going to beat it, whatever it may be -- then he's not -- and he wasn't high at the time, then how do you prove that during that time frame, he really was still addicted?

[15:25:05]

And since even his own family can't tell you whether he was or he wasn't and nobody else can tell you whether he was or he wasn't, then the argument clearly is reasonable doubt because you cant establish the timeline.

SCIUTTO: Well, we know soon enough the jury's thinking.

Jeff Swartz, thanks so much.

SWARTZ: Have a good day job, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Coming up in Europe, Emmanuel Macron's big bet. The French president calling new parliamentary elections after a humbling defeat for his party at the hands of his country's far-right wing in a European Union vote.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: French President Emmanuel Macron is calling for new elections after voters in 27 European member states, including France, sent an unmistakable warning to the political establishment. A far-right movement is rising there. While the center right coalition held the far-right, made clear gains across the E.U., especially in France, where the national rally party led by Marine Le Pen announced Macron's party -- trounced rather Macron's party two-to-one. Macron has now betting big that those E.U. results may scare now French voters to keep him in power in general elections.

CNN's Melissa Bell has more on what happened and what comes next.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) MELISSA BELL, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was an aftershock that rivaled the earthquake Sunday night's European election results.

EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCE PRESIDENT (through translator): I will dissolve the national assembly tonight.

BELL: France's Emmanuel Macron called a snap national elections as the two main far-right parties took nearly 40 percent of votes in France.

[15:30:01]

MARINE LE PEN, NATIONAL RALLY (through translator): We are ready to turn the country around, ready to bring France, but back to life.

BELL: Already hamstrung without an absolute majority in parliament, Macron is looking to tackle the far-right head on, calling for clarity from voters on the country's future.

But if the far-right copy their wins on the French stage, Emmanuel Macron could be facing three years with a radical right prime minister, most likely the 28-year-old Jordan Bardella.

A TikTok star, he brings a youth-friendly dynamic, posting here about drinking the tears of Macron's fans.

DOMINIQUE MOISI, POLITICAL SCIENTIST: It looks as if the fear for the future of the planet have been replaced by the fear of what is called the great replacement, the identity quest. The world is too dangerous. We don't want to be inundated by migrants coming from the Middle East or Africa. We want to be at home surrounded by our peer.

BELL: The far right also saw major wins in a host of European countries. In Germany, the alternative for Deutschland, or AFD, came in second. Its main candidates said last month that he didn't consider all members of a notorious Nazi group to be criminals.

And in Italy, there were gains by Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni's Brothers of Italy the most right-wing party to govern since fascist dictator Benito Mussolini. But the headlines in Western Europe contrast with relatively minor changes across the continent. In Nordic countries, for instance, the left and greens made sweeping gains and overrule the political center appears to have held, ensuring relative stability in the European parliament.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We made it, and now we want the European elections.

BELL: Confidence for now, but unease settling in, in parts of Europe, most of all in France, as the far-right challenges, so much of what the European Union itself has come to stand for.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BELL (on camera): So the greatest seismic shift of these a European elections, Jim, is here in France, and going -- looking ahead to these parliamentary elections, one of the questions will be that if the far right does as well as is expected, it might do, how comfortably will President Macron be able to govern France with a prime minister drawn from the far right?

And remember that he has another three years left in his presidential term, how easily will he able to be able to pass legislation and bearing in mind that he is after all, one of the great motors of European unity, ambition, integration. How successfully or credibly will he be able to continue being that voice, that motor should his prime minister be drawn from a far more Euro skeptical party -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Melissa Bell, thanks so much.

Here in the U.S., former President Donald Trump will appear virtually today for a pre-sentencing interview with his probation officer, another moment in the fallout from Trump's historic felony convictions, 34 of them. This is expected for any convicted felon, takes place one month before his scheduled sentencing hearing on July 11. It is also a brief legal interruption from a busy weekend of campaigning, as well as remarks in an anti-abortion group today.

CNN's Kristen Holmes is following it all, and she joins me now.

Kristen, I wonder what tact, if any, Trump and his legal team plan to take in this pre-sentencing hearing.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Jim.

So, first of all, there's absolutely nothing normal about the fact that Donald Trump, a former president. Now, the presumptive nominee, will be, the Republican nominee for president, is meeting with a probation officer today. But what is normal is that a convicted felon would have this kind of a meeting with a probation officer before their sentencing.

What this really does is it creates a report for Judge Juan Merchan to look at when he is determining his punishment. So right now, Donald Trump is at Mar-a-Lago. He is doing this virtual meeting with Todd Blanche, his attorney, with someone in New York, a probation officer who is essentially taking down whatever answers that he gets and putting them into this report that will eventually go to Judge Juan Merchan.

So, you can imagine that Donald Trump is going to want to be on his best behavior when talking to this person. Now, keep in mind, this is not a mandatory meeting, but it is possible that a judge would look negatively on the fact that you didn't participate in this.

So, clearly, his team is taking this seriously for somebody who doesn't normally participate in everything that you are supposed to as a former sitting president, and as someone who believes that they are above this sort of thing.

Now, just one thing I want to touch on because you mentioned this when you are in your introduction to me, is these remarks that he just gave at this anti or this anti-abortion group meeting because was really remarkable that this isn't just a regular conservative group that's against abortion.

[15:35:04]

I mean, this is a group who says, one of their main focuses is to completely the eradicate abortion.

He got up there and this was a pre-recorded remark. It was just about two minutes and he didn't mention the word abortion instead, he talked about religious freedom, and the First Amendment. But why bringing that up is because it just goes to show you this fine line that Donald Trump is still trying to walk on the issue of abortion, one, that his campaign, thinks might be one of his biggest issues, even more so than those legal issues, going into November.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. Let's just say it out right. It's a hard, fine line to walk, right?

HOLMES: Yeah.

SCIUTTO: Either you support the right and you don't.

HOLMES: And he wants credit for it without talking about it, and he can't stand not getting credit for it. So, he's going to bring it up, but then he doesn't want to actually talk about abortion. So, yes, that's a very fine line to walk.

SCIUTTO: Yeah, I'm sure women watching are listening.

Kristen Holmes, thanks so much.

HOLMES: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: In 2016, presidential candidate Donald Trump repeatedly called for the prosecution and imprisonment of his opponent, Harry Clinton. Remember the "lock her up" chants? Well, now in the wake of his own 34 felony convictions, Trump and his allies are signaling plans for legal retribution in a potential second term.

Here's just some of his own words in the two weeks since his verdict.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, revenge does take time, I will say that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It does.

TRUMP: And sometimes revenge can be justified, Phil, I have to be honest, you know, sometimes it can.

Look, when this election is over, based on what they've done, I would have every right to go after them. And it's easy because it's Joe Biden.

It's a very terrible thing. It's a terrible precedent for our country. Does that mean the next president does it to them? That's really the question.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Well, his allies in Congress are also considering a three- pronged approach, for, quote, accountability, in the justice system based on unsubstantiated claims that President Biden's DOJ played a role in the hush money charges brought, not by the DOJ but by the Manhattan district attorney, Alvin Bragg.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: We're looking at various approaches to what can be done here, through the appropriations process, through the legislative process, through bills that we'll be advancing through our committees and put it on the floor for passage and also through oversight.

REP. RONNY JACKSON (R-TX): President Biden should just be ready because on January 20th of next year, when he's former President Joe Biden, and what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

REPORTER: Are you calling for retaliation?

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): I'm calling for a strong response at every level.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Strong response at every level.

For insight into this, and how this rhetoric could turn into action in a second term, I'm joined by Ruth Ben-Ghiat. She's a historian at NYU, who study strongmen.

Ruth, good to have you on.

RUTH BEN-GHIAT, HISTORY PROFESSOR, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: So, first, just big picture for a moment here, because let's be frank. These attacks on the justice system have gone back years, by the way. In four years in office, it wasn't just talk. He repeatedly fueled those "lock her up" chants, and his first attorney general, when he recused himself in investigations related to Hillary Clinton in 2016 campaign, the special counsel, Robert Mueller, reported the Trump pushed Sessions to un-recuse himself.

I mean, we have a track record here where he attempted to go down this path and now he's saying in so many words that he's at least reserving the right to. How should the American people believe that and should they believe when some of his allies say, oh no, it's just talk, it's retribution at the ballot box?

BEN-GHIAT: They should take all this very seriously because the central plank of authoritarianism is creating a system where the leaders safe from prosecutors, where you can commit crimes and have no consequences, where the executive manages to overwhelm the judiciary and makes the party a rubber stamp for personal tool, so that he feels safe. And these are people who all around the world are very corrupt.

Now, to do this, to get way with this, and have public opinion believed it, you have to engage in what Trump and his enablers are doing now, you have to have a massive campaign to delegitimize the entire judicial system.

The DOJ, every judge, every prosecutor any press that investigates him and so that you can call them rig. You can call them corrupt, right? And that way its kind of insurance and all authoritarians do this, so that if something happens to them, like a conviction 34 counts, it can be dismissed as partisan.

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

And listen, you mentioned the attacks on the press. I mean, he's said his plan out loud, interview with Leslie Stahl, right, before he took office where he said he attacks the press for that same reason, he said because if you and I'm paraphrasing here, come up with things politically damaging to me or critical of me, then I can -- I can cast out on them.

[15:40:01]

I mean, he said in so many words, I suppose one of the problems is he has many allies and many public supporters who invest in with this kind of special power and victimization. I'm just going to play some of the things we heard at a rally yesterday in Las Vegas where some of his supporters compared him to Jesus. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): Oh, President Trump is a convicted felon. Well, you want to know something? The man that I worship is also a convicted felon, and he was murdered on a Roman cross.

MICHAEL MCDONALD, CHAIRMAN, NEVADA REPUBLICAN PARTY: Here in Sunset Park, to worship and bring back the greatest president we've ever known in our generation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Worship, right? I mean, when you look at strong man and what led to strongmen rising to power, is that a necessary ingredient to have some, perhaps not a majority, but many in the public willing to speak of him in those terms.

BEN-GHIAT: It is. This is so bizarre. It's like seeing my book come to life because the book goes from Mussolini, who was considered a semi- deity, up through, you know, Putin, and their patterns here. Their personality cults, they invest heavily in them. They present them as, you know, men above all other men, special men, men in office by the will of God. They have religious institutions backing them up, like the Russian Orthodox Church with Putin.

And so, these are things that happen over and over again. And the more corrupt they are, the more they have to surround themselves with an aura of holiness and that's what's happening here.

SCIUTTO: And what's mentioning about it too, is it ties to Trump's own reverence for admiration for strong men around the world, the Putins, the Xis, and others whose expect quite expressed, quite public admiration for his own advisers have told me that he imagines him self as a strong man and also envies their power to someone -- I mean, that's quite, quite a problem when you're talking about a potentially reelected Democratic leader in this country.

BEN-GHIAT: Yeah. And, Jim, it goes about his vanity and his ego. It actually -- what he's been doing is trying to condition the American people for many years to see those corrupt and malevolent leaders as a good form of governance, even the head of North Korea, which is a total failed state that survives on corruption.

And so, this is an attempt to re-educate Americans to want strongman rule, with him, of course, as the benighted head of state. And so, it's very pernicious. It's worked in other places and he wants what they have, which is immunity from prosecution.

SCIUTTO: And limitless power, it seems.

Ruth Ben-Ghiat, thanks so much for the work you do. Your book strong men, and appreciate the conversation.

Still to come, the moment, three hostages were rescued, four hostages were rescued this weekend in Gaza. There's new video, that's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:46:20]

SCIUTTO: Israel's police and security agency has just released this new bodycam footage showing the very moment Israeli forces entered the residential building where they are being held and rescue. You could see them there, three of the four hostages rescued in Saturday's operation. The men found cowering in the corner of a room they'd been held captive since taken from the Nova music festival on October 7. Two of the hostages identify themselves as Almog Mei Jan, and Andrey Kozlov.

You can hear one of the rescuers saying in that video, three captives and missing hostages in our hands, everything is fine. We came to rescue you, be calm. Quite a moment to be caught on video.

Now to a CNN investigation, U.S. officials believe that Venezuela's most notorious gang is now, quote, established here in the United States and is allegedly running a multistate human trafficking ring, attacking police officers, dealing drugs as well.

Our Rafael Romo has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For the last several years, they have terrorized multiple South American countries.

Police in the region say a Venezuelan gang known as "Tren de Aragua" has victimized thousands through extortion, drug and human trafficking, kidnapping, and murder. And now, U.S. law enforcement including customs and border protection and the FBI say the gang has made their way into the country.

BRITTON BOYD, FBI SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE: The FBI El Paso can confirm that members of Tren de Aragua have crossed into the United States.

ROMO: Alvaro Boza, a former Venezuelan police officer now living in Florida, says he fled his country in large part because the gang had become so powerful, they could kill law enforcement like him with impunity.

Boza says a fellow police officer who refused to cooperate with the gang was shot 50 times.

ALVARO BOZA, FORMER VENEZUELAN POLICE OFFICER (through translator): He refused and was murdered. They tied his body to a motorcycle and dragged it throughout the San Vicente neighborhood to demonstrate the power of the Tren de Aragua.

BOYD: They have followed the migration paths across South America to other countries and have set up criminal groups throughout South America, as they follow those paths, and that they appear to have followed the migration north to the United States.

ROMO: U.S. Border Patrol Chief Jason Owens, who has confirmed multiple arrests of alleged Tren De Aragua members over the last year, issued a warning in early April after reporting yet another arrest. Watch out for this gang, he said. It is the most powerful in Venezuela known for murder, drug trafficking, sex crime, extortion, and other violent acts.

The challenge for law enforcement officials is that it's very difficult to know how many members of Tren de Aragua are already here in the United States.

What some Venezuelan immigrants are telling us here in Florida and other states is that they are already beginning to see in their communities the same type of criminal activity they fled from in Venezuela.

ROLANDO VAZQUEZ, IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY: They do have their hands on prostitution, contract killing, selling of drugs, selling of arms, you name it. They're just all types of criminal activity that they can engage in. Anything that's an illicit activity, they're going to engage in for a profit.

JUDGE MINDY S. GLAZER, 11TH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA: Tren de Aragua, a violent Venezuelan street gang that is operating in the United States.

ROMO: A judge in Miami-Dade County sit in a hearing that one of two suspects in the murder of a former Venezuelan police officer in south Florida, allegedly is a member of the gang.

[15:50:01]

And more recently, a New York police source told CNN the 19-year-old who allegedly opened fire on two officers after they tried to stop him for riding a scooter in the wrong direction has tattoos associated with the gang.

Boza, the former Venezuelan police officer, says the U.S. government has no way of knowing if Venezuelan immigrant asking for asylum at the southern border is in reality a criminal because Venezuela, as a matter of policy, does not share intelligence with the United States.

BOYD: Our biggest concern would be making sure our partners are aware to be on the lookout.

ROMO: And that's the key federal officials say when it comes to making sure this new threat in the United States that's not growing to the national security challenge it's become in several Latin American countries.

Rafael Romo, CNN, Miami.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: After the break, jury deliberations are now underway in Hunter Biden's federal gun trial. We're going to have an update, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTOI: Jury deliberations have begun in Hunter Biden's federal gun trial. Both sides wrap their closing arguments earlier today. A reminder, the president's son faces three counts of illegally purchasing and possessing a gun while addicted to drugs. He has pleaded not guilty to those charges.

CNN's Jessica Schneider back with me now.

I mean, if we compare it to President Trump's case, this is relatively straightforward, only three counts, and a relatively straightforward legal question. Did he lie on that ATF form when he bought that weapon?

SCHNEIDER: And this has been a very quick trial. You know, remember, jury selection only took about a day last Monday. They had started into presenting witnesses, opening statements on Tuesday. So, really, this has only been about a four-day trial with closings today, and we're only talking about three counts here. It was obviously much more with the Trump trial. So it's possible that the jury could come back relatively quickly. They just went for deliberations probably in the last few minutes.

Typically, Jim, court wraps up every day at 4:30. So it's quite possible that if the jury hasn't made significant progress or they're at a decent stopping at 4:30, they will stop at 4:30. SCIUTTO: There are other possibilities we've talked about on the air with some of our legal analysts. Is that one or two or a handful of jurors hold out and you have disagreement there about the ultimate decision?

SCHNEIDER: Yeah. Because I think what we saw in the closings were that it is all about the timeline here.

[15:55:03]

The defense is pointing out, look, there was no witness that you heard from that talked about Hunter Biden using drugs in this specific few day period in October 2018 when he bought this gun and then when he filled out the forms that are a part of these charges.

SCIUTTO: Is that the standard? But the question is, addicted to or using, does it have to be in some defined time period?

SCHNEIDER: Well, prosecutors, that's what they're saying. They're saying it doesn't have to be on the exact day that he filled these forms out, just showing that around this time is when he was using and prosecutors have said, we have done that. We have met our burden. You heard from a lot of witnesses who talked about his drug use in September 2018, just days before he bought this gun. And then the possibility that he was using right around the time with alleged text messages with his drug dealer in the days, right around the gun purchase.

So prosecutors have been forcefully making their case. The defense pushing back hard saying don't believe this magician show that prosecutors are giving you. They haven't proven that it was right on that exact period of time. So it's going to be up to the jury to decide which was sufficient in their minds.

SCIUTTO: I understood. Well, they've got the case now.

SCHNEIDER: Yeah.

SCIUTTO: Jessica Schneider, thanks so much.

And thanks so much all of you for joining me today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.