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Secret Recording of Two Justices Released; Supreme Court Justices Discuss Secret Recordings; Rudy Guiliani's Mug Shot; Deliberations Underway in Hunter Biden's Gun Trial. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired June 11, 2024 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:30:00]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN ANCHOR: New fallout after secret recordings of Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito, his wife, as well as Chief Justice John Roberts were released online. A liberal activist and filmmaker secretly recorded the trio at a Supreme Court Historical Society dinner earlier this month. That activist posed as a religious conservative to get those recordings. CNN has not obtained the full audio, but here's a portion of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAMUEL ALITO, SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: One side or the other is going to win. There can be a way of working -- a way of living together peacefully, but it's difficult, you know, because there are differences on fundamental things that really can't be compromised. They really can't be compromised. So, it's not like we're going to split the difference.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Now, CNN has reached out to the Supreme Court for comment. We have not heard back. But joining me now is Lauren Windsor. She is the person behind those recordings. Lauren, thank you so much for being with us. Really appreciate it.

I guess, first of all, we just played a little bit of your interaction with Justice Alito. Let's play a little bit of your interaction with his wife, Martha Ann. There's been this This controversy over the flag. She's been flying at her house, at their house in Virginia, in their beach house in New Jersey. Let's play a little bit on that sound and talk about on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTHA ALITO, WIFE OF JUSTICE SAMUEL ALITO: You know what I want, I want a sacred heart of Jesus flag because I have to look across the lagoon at the pride flag for the next month.

LAUREN WINDSOR, LIBERAL ACTIVIST WHO SECRETLY RECORDED JUSTICES AND EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, THE UNDERCURRENT: Exactly. M. ALITO: And he's like, oh, please don't put up a flag. My heritage is German. You come after me, I'm going to give it back to you. And there will be a way, it doesn't have to be now, but there will be a way they will know. Don't worry about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Yes, Lauren, I mean, tell me about this. What was your reaction when you heard that from Mrs. Alito? And I guess if you could take us a little bit behind the scenes as to how you got them comfortable enough to express themselves in this fashion.

WINDSOR: Thanks, Jim. So, you know, when I heard the remarks from Ms. Alito you know, it was -- a common thread was a need for vengeance, a desire for vengeance that kind of came up throughout the conversation. And it seems like it had sort of a timed implication to it.

So, at the very beginning of the conversation, she talks about a five- year statute of limitations. And presumably you know, she would not be bringing a defamation suit against the media while Justice Alito is still sitting on the bench. He is 74 years old. And I think that there is some, you know, eye on his retirement.

Now, given Justice Alito's ideological tendencies, I don't think that he would be willing to retire under a Democratic president. So, you know, it kind of reading between the lines there, there's a bit of, I think, an assumption on her part that there would be a Trump presidency and that Justice Alito would be able to retire. So, that's kind of more context there.

ACOSTA: Yes.

WINDSOR: In terms of getting -- I mean, is that your read on it too? I mean, it seems like there's -- bringing suit against a media organization. I don't think that a sitting justice's wife would do that. But --

ACOSTA: Yes. I mean, she sounds awfully feisty in your conversations with her. And what did you make of Justice Alito's comment that one side or the other is going to win? I mean, it didn't sound like he's in a compromising mood these days.

WINDSOR: No, you know, I think -- I did talk to him twice. So, I talked to him in 2023 and then again in 2024. And in his initial conversation with me, he was much more guarded. You know, when I asked him how we repair the polarization in this country, he said that he didn't know, that he didn't think there was necessarily a role.

But, you know, over the -- that was before ProPublica sort of turned their spotlight to him, but after they had published their reporting on Clarence Thomas. So, I suspected that over the last year he would be more aggrieved having personally, you know, borne the brunt of a lot of media scrutiny, and I did feel like that was the case.

ACOSTA: And, Laura, let's ask about the elephant in the room here. I mean, how did you -- I guess, first of all, at the beginning of this segment, I described you as a liberal activist, and you posed as a conservative to, I guess, get some of this comment from the Alitos. How did you obtain these recordings? And what do you say to folks who who take issue with misrepresenting who you are and going in there and getting these recordings?

[10:35:00]

WINDSOR: Well, so there are audio recordings. There's nothing illegal in D.C. about recording people so long as one person is a party to that conversation, it's called one party consent. You know, there's no recording allowed inside the Supreme Court itself, like the courtroom, not the outer, you know, parts of the building where we were. There's not a prohibition from the Supreme Court recording there.

You know, to people who want to pearl clutch about this, yes, please tell me how we're going to get answers when the Supreme Court has been shrouded in secrecy and really just refusing any degree of accountability whatsoever, particularly in the face of, you know, what are very like extraordinarily serious ethics breaches on, you know, mainly like and most famously on the part of Clarence Thomas with, you know, his acceptance of, you know big donor Harlan Crow, is a big donor, big GOP donor Harlan Crow, buying his mother's house, paying for his nephew's tuition. You know, very extravagant trips.

And, you know, if it were extravagant trips alone, I don't think we'd be having this story about Clarence Thomas', you know, gift ethics and lack of disclosure. But we're talking about buying his mother's house.

ACOSTA: But yes, Lauren, why not just go up and maybe the -- you know, it's pretty self-explanatory, maybe they wouldn't talk to you if you said, I'm Lauren Windsor and I'd like to ask you a few questions. Here's -- can you speak into my collar here? But I mean, why not be a bit more upfront? Do you -- are you -- do you have any, you know, qualms about saying, you know, basically what they want to hear to get them to start talking? Or do you feel like that's -- that was basically the only way to do it? We've seen you do this in a number of other instances.

WINDSOR: Yes, I do think it was the only way to do it. And, you know, part of the reason that I -- you know I understand there's a certain sense of decorum around the Supreme Court, but this country right now is at a crossroads where, you know, we're trying to decide. And much of this is, you know, being led by the Supreme Court, but it's, you know, are we going to continue our tradition of secular democracy or are we going to be led to Christian theocracy by this Supreme Court?

And, you know, I -- in the tradition of, you know, the legal watchers who watch the Supreme Court, it would be called the Roberts Court. But I think it's much more appropriate these days to be calling it the Leo Court, given that he's had a hand in, you know, getting the Supreme Court to the makeup where it currently is with religious extremists.

ACOSTA: All right. Well, Lauren Windsor, your sound is certainly got people talking. I really appreciate the time. We'll have you back and keep talking about this. Let us know. Yes?

WINDSOR: Jim, thank you so much. And folks should stay tuned. We have another story to break today.

ACOSTA: All right. We'll do.

WINDSOR: Thank you.

ACOSTA: All right. Thanks a lot, Lauren. Appreciate it. We'll be right back. Just a few moments. Stay with us.

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[10:40:00]

ACOSTA: All right. We're continuing to follow the developing story on the secret recordings of conservative Supreme Court justices. Let's bring in former RNC communications director Doug Heye and CNN political commentator and former South Carolina state representative Bakari Sellers.

Bakari, let me start with you first. We've got a little -- I mean, we're just talking with Lauren Windsor, the activists who did these recordings surreptitiously of these Supreme Court justices and Mrs. Alito. Let's play a little bit of my conversation with her. And, Bakari, I'll ask you about it on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WINDSOR: Well, so they're audio recordings. There's nothing illegal in D.C. about recording people so long as one person is a party to that conversation, it's called one party consent. You know, there's no recording allowed inside the Supreme Court itself, like the courtroom, not the outer, you know, parts of the building where we were. There's not a prohibition from the Supreme Court reporting there.

You know, to people who want to pearl clutch about this, yes, please tell me how we're going to get answers when the Supreme Court has been shrouded in secrecy and really just refusing any degree of accountability whatsoever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Yes. Bakari, what do you think? I mean, do you think it was -- I guess, what's your sense of all this?

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR AND FORMER SOUTH CAROLINA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: Honestly, it's much to do about nothing. I mean, I think we know who justice Alito is. I think --

ACOSTA: Way to sell the segment, Bakari. Thanks. Appreciate it.

SELLERS: Oh, yes. Is this -- are we going to talk about Caitlin Clark? No. So, like I think --

ACOSTA: Next. That's next.

SELLERS: I think that, you know, we know who Justice Alito is. We know who Clarence Thomas is. We know that Clarence Thomas has gotten flown out more than most people should, particularly on a court like the Supreme Court. We know Justice Alito and his ways and the way that his wife behaves, et cetera, and Jenny Thomas and Clarence Thomas.

I think what this does highlight them -- and I want to bring this back to 2024 in this election season, is the fact that Donald Trump has the opportunity to be the most consequential president in the history of the United States of America. I mean, that is a fact because if -- he's already nominated three justices. And what this videotape, what this surreptitiously -- you got to pronounce it for me, Jim.

[10:45:00]

ACOSTA: That's OK.

SELLERS: But what that -- what this tape has showed us is that, you know, it's going to be an important election because Donald Trump will have the opportunity to replace not only justice Alito, but Clarence Thomas as well. He will have five justices on the Supreme Court for the foreseeable future. And so, regardless of how it was gotten or what per se was on it, this shows the import of this election and the fact that Donald Trump can put two more justices on the Supreme Court.

ACOSTA: Yes, Doug. I mean, Bakari is right. I mean, the implications of this, he could put more Sam Alito's on the court.

DOUG HEYE, FORMER RNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR AND REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes, I would never say this in any other context, Bakari Sellers is 100 percent right in everything that he said there. And it should be no surprise to anybody that Sam Alito or Clarence Thomas is a conservative justice or that Sonia Sotomayor or Elena Kagan are liberal justices.

A lot of what we've seen over the past few weeks and now months of this sort of non-scandal scandal is a lot of -- as your guest earlier said, pearl clutching, OK. But if Justice Alito's wife, you know, the flag that she raised, if that was raised by Ruth Bader Ginsburg, I would submit that that would be a trending tattoo and people would plank in front of that flag because anything the notorious one did is by definition awesome.

And this is --

ACOSTA: Doug, I don't know about that because, you know, one of the things -- you know, we shouldn't have Supreme Court justices driving around with bumper stickers on their car talking about who they support in an election or what political causes they believe in and so on. I mean, you do take some exception with --

HEYE: Sure.

ACOSTA: -- justice.

HEYE: Justice.

ACOSTA: Yes.

HEYE: But a justices' spouses is a different member -- is a different issue.

ACOSTA: A different house.

HEYE: If they get involved in political campaigns, you know, you do run a risk there. But Ruth Bader Ginsburg's husband was very political and nobody had an issue with that because she's the notorious one and we all had to, you know, reflect on who she was and her importance and so forth, and certainly a historic figure, but she got a pass for everything. Her husband got a pass, that Sam Alito and his spouse or Clarence Thomas and his wife don't get because they're conservatives. I think they're judged differently.

SELLERS: But that's not totally accurate, Doug. And I just want to reframe a little bit.

HEYE: Man, I told you everything you said was right. Come on.

SELLERS: I know, but let's bring it back home and let's get back to where we normally are. So, the fact is Ruth Bader Ginsburg's husband actually participated and played a role in partisan politics to a certain extent. Jenny Thomas played a role in insurrection. Those are vastly different.

When you're talking about someone trying to lead an insurrection, overthrow a government, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, you have to look at justice Alito's wife. And not only though -- not only that, but the fact is these issues are coming before the court. And so, there's a vast difference between Ruth Bader Ginsburg or the notorious RBG, as you refer to her, and Justice Alito and his wife and Jenny Thomas and Clarence Thomas.

The fact is, neither one of them should be hearing cases which their wives have either played a role in, i.e., Clarence Thomas and his wife playing a role in -- excuse me, playing a role in an insurrection, or Samuel Alito and his wife actually voicing her support for the insurrectionists. And you can do that if the case is not before you. Those are the differences that we see today, Doug.

ACOSTA: Well, Doug, if you want to respond, go ahead. But, I mean, the other part of this that I think is fascinating is, you know, during the Supreme Court confirmation hearings, these justices, these nominees are so guarded, they're so scripted, they don't let anything out of the bag.

And then one of the problems that people have with the Supreme Court, as it's currently composed right now, is you have a few justices, during their confirmation processes, not being very upfront about their feelings on Roe versus Wade, saying that they believe in established precedent and so on. And then they go and -- when the case is in front of the Supreme Court, they throw out Roe versus Wade.

What's interesting about these audio recordings is you are getting these justices in sort of unguarded, unscripted moments.

HEYE: Well, I think they're interesting, but they tell us what we -- I think we already know. And to Bakari's point, I think there are legitimate questions that have been brought up about Clarence Thomas, some of the trips that he's taken that have been paid for or tuitions that have been paid for. But when we get --

ACOSTA: I can't imagine you're in love with that.

HEYE: When we get -- No, no, I'm not. And I think legitimate questions of whether or not there should be recusal. But when we all get worked up about a flag or a neighborhood dispute that really doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the issues before the court, and by the way, the American people aren't following this on a day-to-day basis, it's basically folks like us who get really worked up about it, I think we lose sight of what's really important here.

And also, let's remember, Jim, you know, we used to have Supreme Court justices who were overwhelmingly approved, liberal or conservative, they would be approved by 80 to 20 margin, a 90 to 10 margin, every vote now for the Supreme Court is political.

ACOSTA: Yes, the process is broken, no question about it. And I think this audio, to some extent, may shed some light on that, get the conversation going. Doug and Bakari, great conversation. Thanks, gentlemen. Appreciate it very much.

[10:50:00]

Happening now, deliberations continuing in the Hunter Biden gun case. We're live outside the courthouse in Delaware with the very latest. That's straight ahead.

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ACOSTA: A spokesperson for Rudy Giuliani predicts the former Trump attorney will be fully vindicated. Officials in Arizona released his mugshot on Monday after he posted a $10,000 cash bond. Giuliani and 10 others have pleaded not guilty to charges of conspiring to overturn the 2020 presidential election in Arizona.

Prosecutors spent weeks trying to track him down and eventually found him based on some of his podcasts. Giuliani was served last month in Palm Beach, Florida at his 80th birthday party.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have any regrets about what you did in Arizona after the election?

RUDY GUILIANI, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: Oh, my goodness, no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why not?

GUILIANI: I'm very, very proud of it. There was a substantial amount of vote fraud that went on here. That was covered up. Probably one of the biggest conspiracies in American history. And I think that's coming out over and over again.

(END VIDEO CLIP) [10:55:00]

ACOSTA: Meanwhile, a new bombshell testimony in the bribery and corruption trial of New Jersey Senator Bob Menendez. Businessman Jose Uribe took the stand on Monday, claiming he spoke directly to the senator and asked him to help quash a criminal investigation into one of his associates. He testified Menendez agreed to "look into it." Though he didn't specifically say exactly what he would do.

Uribe also spoke about a 2019 deal he made with the senators, then future wife to pay for her Mercedes Benz in exchange for the senator's help. Menendez has been charged with acting as a foreign agent of the Egyptian government and assisting the government of Qatar. He's also been charged with taking bribes from several New Jersey businessmen.

Thanks very much for joining me this morning. I'm Jim Acosta. Our next hour newsroom with Wolf Blitzer starts after a short break. Have a good day.

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