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Deadly Protests in Kenya; Presidential Debate Preparations; Mar-a-Lago Hearing. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired June 25, 2024 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00]

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Professor Jay Ritter told me that the share price is still wildly overvalued. Billionaire Barry Diller has called Trump Media a scam and said that people who buy the stock are -- quote -- "dopes."

Now, to make his point, Reid Hoffman said, look at how Trump media is valued compared to another social media company, Meta. That's the company behind Instagram and Facebook. Meta is trading at about nine times what it brought in, in sales last year. By comparison, Trump Media is trading at more than 1,400 times its sales last year.

And, Jim, look, this is not a trivial matter, right? I mean, Trump's stake is worth around $4 billion in this company. And there's a lot of real people who do own stock here, and they would get hurt if gravity sets in.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: All right, we will be watching that. Matt Egan, thanks very much.

EGAN: Thanks, Jim.

ACOSTA: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington.

Right now, Trump's defense team is launching yet another attack on the special counsel in that case, Jack Smith, and his office. It's the former president's latest bid to have the classified documents case tossed out. Right now, Judge Aileen Cannon is holding a confidential hearing, we're told, with both sides, ahead of today's public hearing.

It follows Monday's back-to-back hearings where tensions flared between the judge and the prosecution. At one point, Cannon saying -- quote -- "I don't appreciate your tone."

Meantime, a late-night filing from Smith's office contained never- before-seen evidence, photos from Mar-a-Lago -- you can see it right there -- showing boxes with their contents spilled out onto the floor. Smith's office is expected to use this as they defend their handling of evidence today.

CNN's Evan Perez is outside the court this morning. He joins me now.

Evan, tell us more about this new filing and these photos. What more can you tell us?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, this is an attempt by the special counsel to push back on the former president's legal team. They're arguing that, because some of the documents in those boxes that were taken from Mar-a-Lago back in August of 2022, the order in which those documents were found had changed as a result of the investigation, that this affects or hurts his ability to mount a defense.

And so what you're seeing there in some of these new photographs, you will see once that were taken by Walt Nauta. It looks like something out of the show "Hoarders," right, where you see these boxes sitting in a closet there in a room with them spilling out of the boxes. There's also boxes that show classified documents intermingled with news clippings, and another one, a document or a letter written from the White House on White House stationery to families from Sandy Hook.

And so what the special counsel is saying is that, look, there was no bad faith, there was nothing lost in -- as part of this investigation. And what they're saying is that the court should see Trump's newly invented explanations for how these documents were found as his latest unfounded accusations against law enforcement.

In other words, law enforcement did not do this to try to fix this case against the former president. Again, we have an ongoing hearing that is still on -- that is going behind closed doors. We expect that some of this, Jim, some of these pictures and some of these documents from the latest filing to be part of the hearing. We will see later this afternoon.

ACOSTA: Very interesting.

All right, Evan Perez, keep us posted. Thanks so much.

For more on this, let's go to CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney Joey Jackson. He joins us now.

Joey, what do you make of all this?

(LAUGHTER)

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Quite a mess. I think -- Jim, good morning to you.

ACOSTA: Yes.

JACKSON: I think the overarching issue is, number one, the manner in which the judge has been handling the case, and, number two, whether or not she's going down rabbit holes and entertaining arguments and whether that's a basis for delay and whether or not the fix is in as it relates to Donald Trump. And that's a fair question.

Federal judges, Jim, have a very robust amount of authority. We respect that authority you practice before federal judges. But, generally speaking, I don't have any issue or qualms with the competence of the judge at all. She's come from tremendous law schools. She's had tremendous experiences.

I think my issue is the process.In terms of what I do in my daily practice is that you go before judges and they move cases along. And if you have a meritorious argument, they will hear it. If there are argument that are well-settled in law, they will not. But what they will do is, they will move the calendar, because there's a lot to get to.

And if you have something that you have to say, put it in a motion, we will have a hearing and decide it. But this delay, delay, delay is somewhat -- it just doesn't happen. And so to the extent that it is happening, it is concerning.

ACOSTA: Yes, I mean, it has not been a good time for the prosecution, for special counsel Jack Smith's office. The judge, Judge Cannon, has appeared skeptical of a gag order for Trump in this case. And then she took issue with the tone of one of the prosecutors, saying: "I don't appreciate your tone."

[11:05:05]

Joey Jackson, I can't imagine that's a good thing.

JACKSON: No, it's not a good thing.

But, listen, you know what happens? Jim, in court, tempers flair. And, certainly, when you're trying to get across an argument that you believe to be significant, that you believe to impact the impactful, the judge may, for example, take umbrage with how you express something.

And it happens, right? Perfection eludes us all. The real issue on the merits of the gag order is, why not? I mean, the reality is, is that, yes, Jim, listen, we live in a free speech country. And in a free speech country, I will tell you that judges do not like to stop, prevent people from saying anything.

And they certainly don't like to restrict content of what people say. However, having said that, you know, I know that there are limitations to speech. You can't yell fire in a theater. You can't defame someone. What am I speaking about, right?

I'm speaking about the notion of limiting speech when it impairs something. We have seen gag orders before. Why? Because of the issue of fear and intimidation, hush money in New York, the election interference case before Judge Chutkan in D.C. Whenever it leads to fear, intimidation, it's a problem. Whenever it could lead to potential violence, it's a problem.

So if you're saying things about assassination, yes, you want to limit the amount in which you can restrict someone, but I think you have to protect public safety. And on the merits, I'm concerned about her just lack of entertaining that.

ACOSTA: And, Joey, one quick final thing. I mean, these photos that Jack Smith's office put out, are they trying to put pressure on the judge by putting these photos out? What do you make -- what did you think of that?

JACKSON: I mean, look, that's the issue of, we're talking about classified documents. We're talking about alleged secrets of the government. We're talking about things that can get someone killed. Is this the manner in which those should be treated?

And, quite frankly, Jim, that's not really a judicial question. That's a jury question. When you get before a jury, there are some things judges decide. They decide matters of law. As it relates to whether you should have classified documents, whether they were classified documents, were they were treated with the proper decorum and respect, did you intentionally possess them, there are some issues that are better presented before a jury.

And I think the issue here is, are we ever going to get there?

ACOSTA: Right.

JACKSON: Yes, we want to have hearings. Yes, we want everybody's point of view to be expressed, but we have to move matters along at the end of the day.

ACOSTA: Yes.

JACKSON: And, when you're not, I think the public fairly asked, hey, what are we doing here? Are you delaying? Are you really entertaining issues that need to be entertained for judicial purposes?

ACOSTA: Yes, Joey, I mean, I'm just looking at that -- those -- that photo we were just looking at a few moments ago. And not to do a CSI on it, but, I mean, it looks like somebody's dry cleaning is next to these boxes of documents that have been spilled out with newspapers and everything. It looks like a real dog's breakfast in there.

But, all right, Joey Jackson, thanks very much. Really appreciate it.

I don't know what your closet looks like. All right. Mine doesn't look that bad. Joey...

(LAUGHTER)

JACKSON: A little better than that, Jim, not...

(CROSSTALK)

ACOSTA: A little better than that.

JACKSON: But a little better than that. And there's no classified documents in there, I assure you.

ACOSTA: All right, all right, we will take your word for it. All right, Joey, thanks a lot.

New this morning, just days ahead of CNN's historic presidential debate, several top Democrats are warning President Biden to focus on Donald Trump and not on his own first-term record. Sources say the reason for that is simple. The president's policy achievements, in their view, are not resonating with the American people.

White House Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre is projecting confidence ahead of the CNN showdown, but this morning appeared to suggest that the president may not entirely follow that advice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: When there is an opportunity for this president to speak to millions of Americans, he shows up and he meets the moment. So, obviously, the president's going to look forward to Thursday doing just that, laying out what he normally does, what he's done the last three-and-a-half years, how he's going to continue to build on the economy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Let's discuss with CNN senior political commentator Van Jones and former RNC communications director Doug Heye.

Van, let me start with you first.

What do you think about this stuff that we're hearing that there are outside advisers saying the president should focus on Trump than his accomplishments during his first term? What do you think?

VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I just think that he's got to balance this thing.

On the one hand, he has a lot to be proud of, and I think he's frustrated he doesn't get credit. You know, you do have inflation coming down, employment is up, the stock market is strong. So when you have those kinds of things on your report card, you want to say, look, ma, look, dad, I got some A's here. And so that pride is going to show. He's going to want to do that.

At the same time, he's downplaying his real strength, which is empathy. People don't feel good because prices are too high when it comes to groceries, when it comes to rent, when it comes to cars. And so sometimes that pride of what he's accomplished steps on his empathy of what is yet to be done.

And so he's got to balance that. And if he gets the balance wrong, it's going to be -- it's got to sound tone-deaf, which is a death knell for someone whose main credit is his empathy.

[11:10:00]

ACOSTA: Yes.

And, Doug, let's play a little bit of what the White House press secretary was saying this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEAN-PIERRE: The work that this president did, from the American Rescue Plan, to the bipartisan infrastructure legislation, to the Inflation Reduction Act, all of these historic pieces of legislation, has helped this country get back on its feet.

So, yes, eggs and milk and there were grocery things that were up, it has gone down. It has gone down since 2022.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Doug, your thoughts?

DOUG HEYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look, he's going to talk about some of his legislative accomplishments, but if they're -- if they bank on that that's going to convince people that their lives are suddenly better, that's a really bad strategy.

He has to convince those voters who, every week of their lives, they go and get coffee at a McDonald's or a Dunkin' Donuts or a Biscuitville, and the prices are higher and why they're upset about that. He has to demonstrate that he gets it and he has a plan to fix it.

Talking about, I did this and this and this and you should be grateful, that will be tone-deaf from Biden. And I think to Van's point, he has to show empathy here. And empathy is that you understand the problem and you have a way of achieving it, and using that to then go after Donald Trump with whatever Biden feels would be a loss for voters if Trump wins.

He has to do both.

ACOSTA: Yes, and, Van, the president is going after Trump in a new add on the economy. Let's look at that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NARRATOR: Donald Trump loves to attack Joe Biden.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (R) AND CURRENT U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Joe Biden. Joe Biden.

NARRATOR: Because he's focused on revenge, and he has no plan to help the middle class. He would just give more tax cuts to the wealthy. Joe Biden is working every day to make your life more affordable. Donald Trump is only out for himself. Joe Biden is fighting for your family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Yes, I mean, Van to your point, in that ad they were going after Trump, and it looked like his hair a little bit too and so on, but they were also showing Biden sitting down with voters at the table.

And more of that, I guess, is what they're thinking they need to do behind the scenes.

JONES: Absolutely.

And part of the thing is, we're living in the United States of amnesia. People really just don't remember how awful and terrible the Trump days were. I mean, there was a reason that he got voted out. And so now there's this weird kind of nostalgia for the Trump days, which, if you look back at any of the headlines or any what was going on, nobody was happy during that period of time. It was a complete upset all the time.

So, what Biden I think is trying to do, that message, Trump is for himself, resonates. People get that. That seems to be true. And Biden is fighting for you. That's where he's got to prove the point. The thing about it is, those of us who spend a lot of time with the news, we know Inflation Reduction Act is a lot of money to try to help build stuff.

But it sounds like gobbledygook. So you can't just get up there and say, look, I passed this ABC and this XYZ and this 123 and think people are going to be moved by that. People don't know what you're talking about. And so you have got to, on the one hand, punch hard on Trump and remind people that he is a chaos agent, but you have got to get more specific.

We just heard the price of eggs. Can you talk normal American and resonate and connect? That's where -- that's what that ad is about. That's what he's got to be about on Thursday night.

ACOSTA: Yes.

I mean, Doug, people have been frustrated with prices at the grocery store. There's no question about it. Trump apparently is not doing the same kind of preparation that Joe Biden is. Joe Biden's been at Camp David. Trump's been out on the campaign trail holding rallies, doing interviews with friendly hosts and so on.

Do you like that approach? Does it make you worry a little bit for Donald Trump and his folks?

HEYE: Well, there's a lot that makes me worry.

JONES: Yes. Yes. Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

HEYE: But I think what's most interesting is not what Donald Trump is doing, but where he's doing it.

ACOSTA: Yes.

HEYE: When he does these rallies that we have seen in recent weeks, he's been in Richmond, Virginia. He's been in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He's been in the Bronx. And those are Democratic strongholds. And what he's doing is, he's going to Joe Biden's areas.

He's trying to peel away voters here and there. Now, if you're going to go after African-American voters, if you're going to try and attract Hispanic voters, you also have to invest resources, spend on Hispanic and African-American media and television and so forth. But he's going to places where Republicans typically don't. I will be

interested to see if, after this debate, Joe Biden, regardless of the debate performance, does he go to rural areas, where Democrats really need to stem their bleeding?

ACOSTA: Yes.

And, of course, the elephant in the room. I mean, we don't even know what the Supreme Court's going to do tomorrow. So this whole debate, I mean, we might be talking about stuff other than what we're talking about right now.

Van and Doug, guys, thanks very much. Really appreciate it.

JONES: Thank you.

ACOSTA: We're just two days away from the first presidential debate of the year hosted by CNN. Don't miss Joe Biden and Donald Trump going head to head this Thursday, June 27, right here on CNN. It's at 9:00 Eastern.

Still ahead, we're following breaking news of protesters storming the Parliament in Kenya. Take a look at some of this video. It's pretty wild what we're seeing so far this morning. A live report from Nairobi is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:19:30]

ACOSTA: We are following breaking news out of Kenya.

A demonstration by people angry over planned tax hikes has turned deadly. Look at this video. Protesters have breached the Parliament building. And smoke has been billowing from its windows. Five people are reported dead, dozens injured.

CNN crews have witnessed police firing live rounds at the protesters in the streets.

CNN's Larry Madowo joins us now from the capital of Nairobi.

Larry, you have been in the thick of this all morning, all day long over there. What have you seen?

[11:20:01]

LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jim, we're looking at a building in the middle of the city that's been in fire. They just managed to put out the fire a short while ago by the Nairobi City County Fire Department.

It's not clear what happened here. Some of the protesters claim police fired tear gas inside the building while there were still people in there. So they managed to put that under control. But the building called Uganda House is badly damaged. This is just a sign of how violent these anti-tax hike protests became.

It began as young people angry at overtaxation by the government of President William Ruto, who famously got a big welcome in the White House only a few weeks ago. And now, back here at home, young people who voted for him feel disillusioned. They feel that, even though he told them to elect him in 2022, because he understood the plight of the common man, he has turned his backs on them and is overtaxing them.

And so they're angry about this proposed finance bill that would raise taxes on a lot of basic commodities. They have taken advantage of that to do some general looting. On this street, this entire block has businesses that have been ransacked, that the walls have been broken into and every single thing that was inside appears to have been taken away.

There's no valuables left here. So what you have is this scene here with broken glass and these shutters completely broken into. And people up here who have just been taking advantage of the situation and the anarchy to loot as much as possible.

And that's -- now, these businessmen, I spoke to some of them who say they have lost everything. They're trying to come to terms with the extent of the damage here in the middle of the city. This is one of the main business thoroughfares here in the city.

And I have never seen it like this even in previous protests. But there is some real anger on the streets of Nairobi about these tax proposals for people who feel they're already overburdened, but they cannot afford any more taxes.

The police have been fighting protesters all day, surviving water cannon, surviving a lot of tear gas throughout the day. But, right now, they have only 10 more minutes until they are required to clear the city as part of a government directive as to how long these protests can go, Jim.

ACOSTA: Yes.

And, Larry, I understand you were speaking with former President Barack Obama's half-sister about some of what was going on there. What can you tell us about that? She was -- you were both caught up in the middle of this.

MADOWO: That's right.

We were speaking to Auma Obama, the half-sister of former President Barack Obama. She came out here on the streets to support the young people who are out protesting. And she was tear-gassed while live on CNN. And she was struggling to breathe, like I was, because she said: "I'm only here to support these young people who are raising their voice about the high cost of living. And this is not the way the government should be dealing with it."

She is usually free of politics. She does not usually discuss politics. I'm not sure if you have the sound, but I'd like to play that for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AUMA OBAMA, HALF-SISTER OF BARACK OBAMA: I'm here because look at what's happening. Young Kenyans are demonstrating for their rights. They're demonstrating with flags and banners.

I can't even see anymore. They're being tear-gassed. They're being tear...

(COUGHING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MADOWO: That was Auma Obama and her daughter out here on the street supporting young people and getting tear-gassed.

Police have not told CNN why they have had this overly militarized response to largely peaceful protesters. We did see police using live rounds outside Parliament, and CNN saw at this two bodies lying on the street as a result of that, Jim.

ACOSTA: Wow. Yes.

And, Larry, tell us about that. Why were protesters there outside of the Parliament, and why did we see that exchange of violence there? It looks like it was very heavy-handed on the response from the police.

MADOWO: The organizers of these protests have declared seven days of rage. And, today, they called it a total shutdown.

Their ambition was to occupy Parliament. And police's stated objective was to make sure they don't do that. But they did breach the wall of Parliament and get in and sit in the speaker's chair and take out the mace. But as part of trying to block those young protesters from getting that far to the Parliament, we saw officers use live rounds again and again and again.

And these protesters were armed with banners and with flags of the national -- of Kenya. And they were singing the national anthem throughout that time. And so that heavy-handed response, we haven't had an official reaction from the government of Kenya from the police about why that is.

What you have back there is the Supreme Court of Kenya. That's the buffer between the Parliament of Kenya and these protesters that these officers are trying to make sure they don't make it back to Parliament. But there's also City Hall Nairobi, another building which houses the governor of Nairobi, that's also on fire.

The fire brigade trucks here trying to take out that fire.

[11:25:00]

ACOSTA: Wow. And have we heard from any Kenyan leaders? We just had a state dinner

here in Washington. And I'm just curious, have the leaders of Kenya said anything about what's going on? Why did this happen?

MADOWO: We haven't heard...

ACOSTA: Yes.

MADOWO: Jim, we haven't heard anything from President William Ruto or from his government.

Even as this goes on, it's impossible to ignore, because the scale of these protests and the devastation we have seen has been unprecedented. They have clearly escalated when you see this, the shell of a car in the middle of the city, three different fire trucks trying to put out of fire.

It's no longer a small, contained disruption or eruption of the young people. Many of these young people organized on TikTok, on Instagram, on Twitter. They came out to fight for their country. And they say they're the generation of action.

President William Ruto is going to have to deal with this, because it's not a good look for him locally, and it's certainly not a good look for him internationally, Jim.

ACOSTA: That's right. Yes, President Ruto was just at the White House with President Biden for a state dinner, and then just shortly after that visit, we're seeing this unfold in Kenya.

Larry Madowo, excellent reporting, as always. Keep us posted on any developments on your end. Really appreciate it. Thanks so much.

Still to come: The trial for jailed "Wall Street" reporter Evan Gershkovich gets under way tomorrow. Why my next guest says the American is more likely to be part of a prisoner swap than a legitimate trial. We will talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)