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Democratic Party Leaders Reportedly Conducting Polls To Determine If President Biden Is Best Candidate For President In 2024 After His Poor Debate Performance; National Hurricane Center Warns Tropical Storm Beryl Forecast To Become Dangerous Major Hurricane; U.S. Supreme Court Rules Justice Department Overstepped Its Authority in Its Prosecutions Of Dozens Of January 6th Capitol Rioters; Judge Aileen Cannon Allows Donald Trump To Challenge Key Evidence In Classified Documents Case Against Him; New Wave Of COVID-19 Hitting U.S.; U.S. Supreme Court Rules In Favor Of Oregon Town That Punishes Homeless For Sleeping Outside. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired June 29, 2024 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: He was pretty surprised because most mock drafts had him being selected in the teens is definitely a cool moment for him and his family.

Finally, the minor league club, the Lake County Captains have new premium seats at their new ballpark in Ohio. It's a row of toilets. The team saying why sit on the toilet and play on your phone when you can sit on a toilet and watch an entire baseball game? The cushy throne comes with reading materials and your own bathroom attendant.

What do you think Fredricka, would you like to enjoy a baseball game from that seat?

(LAUGHTER)

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: That would be a big fat no, to answer Andy Scholes's question.

All right, hello everyone. Thank you so much for joining me into another hour. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. And right now President Biden is back on the campaign trail hoping to reenergize his election bid after what he acknowledged was a weak debate performance Thursday night. The president just touching down in East Hampton, New York, today. He's making several campaign stops on Long Island and in New Jersey as well today.

But it comes as CNN has learned the Democratic Party leaders are conducting polls to determine if Biden is really the best candidate. The party is conducting new polls to determine if Biden will drag down candidates down ballot, especially in critical races in the House and Senate.

CNN's Arlette Saenz is joining us right now with the very latest on this. Arlette, what more are you learning about these efforts behind the scenes? ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well Fred, we're

learning that behind the scenes, Democrats are quite anxious relating to the president's debate performance on Thursday night. And it's prompting some a top Democrats to engage in some polling and research to see how much of an impact his performance would have, not just on his ticket, but also down ballot races as well.

So in the coming days and weeks, Democrats are expected to conduct their own polling and research. Of course, there will also likely be news media polls sometimes as well to try to determine what the state of this race would be and what kind of further impact the president's remaining yet the top of the ticket would have on down ballot races when you think about the Senate, which Democrats are trying to control, the House, which Democrats want to try to win back, and other offices as well.

But it really speaks to the awareness within the Democratic Party about trying to chart forward the next steps after that debate performance. One person said -- told CNN, a longtime adviser to the president said that the only way that the president would likely consider stepping aside is if he was really presented with serious data showing that he would not only potentially lose reelection himself, but also cause damage to the House or Senate, or other races as well.

It's unclear how exactly this is all going to shake out when you think about the polling in the coming weeks. The Biden campaign, of course, has insisted that the president is remaining in the race, and they also believe that their message is one that will continue to resonate with voters going forward. So I think a lot of attention will be paid in Democratic circles to what this polling looks like as Democrats are trying to chart the path forward for the next four or five months of this campaign.

WHITFIELD: And then, Arlette, as a result of Biden's debate performance, is the White House revealing anything or his campaign revealing anything about any adjustments that he's making in appearances or commitments?

SAENZ: I think you've heard from Biden advisers acknowledging that it was a bad night for President Biden on that debate stage. And they are saying that the course correction at this point is getting him out on the campaign trail. You saw him yesterday in Raleigh, North Carolina. The president was quite fiery and impassioned in his speech, not only acknowledging his own performance on the debate stage, but also in his attacks against Donald Trump. There were moments yesterday in North Carolina where the president was using lines that he had tried to use during the debate, but ones that had simply a fallen flat with his performance.

And so his advisers have insisted that there are no plans for the president to drop out of this race. The advisers say he is still intent on debating Donald Trump in September when that next face off is currently scheduled to take place. And they have said that the conversations that they've been having with the presidents are about how to move forward on the campaign trail and deliver his message and convince voters of his ability to serve in a second term.

WHITFIELD: All right, Arlette Saenz, we'll leave it there for now. Thanks so much.

All right, the National Hurricane Center says Tropical Storm Beryl is forecast to become a dangerous major hurricane. Beryl would be the first hurricane of the 2024 season. Let's get straight to CNN meteorologist Allison Chinchar. So what do we know about this Beryl, its potential, and when's the next update?

[14:05:00]

ALLISON CHINCHAR, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Right, so we just got a brand-new update at the top of the 2:00 hour. Not much changes, really. Mostly it's just that forward speed in the position. Still looking at sustained winds, about 65 miles per hour. For reference, 75 miles per hour is what would classify this as a hurricane. So close but not quite there yet.

It's just east of the Windward Islands. It's moving to the west at about 23 miles per hour. But what sets this storm apart is just how early we are seeing this strong of a storm. Normally you don't get the second named storm until mid-July, July 17. The average first date of the first hurricane isn't until August 11. And this one, as you mentioned, is forecast to get to a major hurricane. We don't usually see our first major hurricane until September 1st.

So very early in the season, and the main reason for that really comes down to those incredibly warm sea surface temperatures. The area were Beryl is located, the sea surface temperatures running about three to five degrees above average. I know that may not sound like that much, but it is enough for systems like this to be able to flourish and really intensify rather quickly.

The other thing, too, is the location. It formed east of the Windward Islands. That's not very common early in the season, meaning May and June. Typically, they're more in the Gulf and the Caribbean, not necessarily this far east.

Now, this storm is expected to become a hurricane later today, could be as early as the 5:00 update, perhaps, maybe the 8:00 update. Those would be the next subsequent updates that we get after 2:00 p.m. But the point is it is expected to increase as it continues to make its way towards the Windward Islands. Several watches and warnings already in place there, but it is forecast to get to a major hurricane late Sunday or early Monday. That means as it's reaching the Windward Islands. So those areas need to pay very close attention to this.

From there, it's going to continue to make its way in towards the Caribbean Sea, so likely going to see at least a few more areas getting those watches and warnings as the system begins to progress westward.

Also, too, looking at that wide swath of those tropical storm-force winds, you're looking at numerous islands in both the Windward and the Leeward Islands that are likely to have impacts from this. So again, remember, just even if you're not in the cone, you're still likely to have impacts from this particular storm.

Also want to note, it's not the only thing were watching. We actually have two separate systems we're watching, one just behind Beryl. That having a pretty good chance of becoming something in about the next 48 hours or so. And this other system here that's located right along the Yucatan Peninsula, that could slide up into the Gulf of Mexico in the coming days.

So a lot of things that we've got to keep an eye out here for. The next two names on the list, by the way, if they were to get named, is Chris followed by Debbie.

WHITFIELD: Gosh. And again, you said we're starting a little bit earlier than usual. All right, just what, 28, 29 days into hurricane season started June 1. All right, Allison Chinchar, thank you so much.

Of course, at the top of the hour, we're going to have the NOAA director joining me live to give us the latest from his point of view. Thank you.

Still ahead, the U.S. Supreme Court is limiting how January 6th rioters can be charged. Donald Trump is calling it a big win. What it could mean for the federal election interference case against him.

Plus, 40-foot flames and zero percent contained -- details on the wildfire burning out of control just outside Phoenix, Arizona.

And summer surge, new recommendations from the CDC as 38 states deal with rise of COVID cases.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:13:00]

WHITFIELD: Among the final opinions from the U.S. Supreme Court that could come Monday, Donald Trump's claim of absolute immunity. That case stems from charges over his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. Legal experts say it's likely that Trump's efforts to get blanket immunity from all prosecutions will be unsuccessful.

Meantime, Friday's new ruling that the U.S. Justice Department overstepped its authority is forcing prosecutors to reopen cases against dozens of rioters at the Capitol. Trump's team is expected to use the ruling in an effort to get his obstruction charges dismissed.

CNN's Katelyn Polantz has details.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: The U.S. Supreme Court on Friday decided that the way that the Justice Department charges January 6th rioters has to be limited, that there has to be specific intent and language that the Justice Department uses when it brings cases against these rioters for felony obstruction. Many rioters, hundreds, even, were charged with obstruction of a congressional proceeding on January 6th of 2021, and they were taken to trial. Some of them pled guilty, and many have been sentenced.

There's only a couple remaining cases in the system where those people continue to serve those sentences. And so now with this Supreme Court ruling, there's going to be a lot more work for the Justice Department to do. These cases are very likely to go back to the trial judges now and be revisited in different ways.

Within two hours after the Supreme Court ruled on Friday about these January 6th rioter cases, a federal judge in D.C., who sits at the trial level, told the defendants under her, rioters, that they would need to be resentenced. So she's going to put those on the calendar, resentencing dates for some of these people who are serving prison time.

And then in another case, a very well-known case against Jacob Chansley, the so-called "QAnon Shaman," the man with the horns and the spear with the American flag and the bull horn urging rioters to come inside the building.

[14:15:08]

He, Jacob Chansley, may have to be retried. He's one of the only rioters to only face that obstruction felony count. And so the Justice Department may need to revisit how it deals with that charge against this man who has already completed his prison time. So a long way ahead on that.

There's also the Trump case. Donald Trump faces this same charge that the Supreme Court is ruling on. But the Justice Department has tried to get ahead of things here and say that Donald Trump's case is much different than the rioters, that he was trying to obstruct the proceedings of Congress in a lot of ways, including with that fake electoral scheme and with a lot of actions that didn't just occur on January 6th.

Katelyn Polantz, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

WHITFIELD: All right, so what does Fridays ruling mean for the hundreds of defendants charged with obstruction? Nearly 250 cases are currently pending. That included the obstruction charge in addition to others. More than 50 people have been convicted and sentenced on the obstruction charge alone. And of those cases, prosecutors say 27 are currently incarcerated.

Here to break all this down for us as former Miami-Dade County court judge Jeff Swartz. Judge Swartz, good to see you.

JEFF SWARTZ, FORMER MIAMI-DADE COUNTY COURT JUDGE: Good to see you, Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, so former President Trump has yet to be tried on related charges, but he posted "Big win" on his Truth Social platform. So if his attorneys file a motion as it relates to this, is he consequently admitting that he had some involvement in the riot by even trying to assert this rulings?

SWARTZ: No, I don't think that that's going to be the case. If he is going to assert that he wants dismissal of his charges, the problem he's going to have is that he's charged with conspiracy. He's also charged with obstruction. His obstruction, as Katelyn just said, goes to the heart of what Section 1512-B-2 is about, and that is paper. That section was passed after the Enron case when they tried to destroy papers and evidence. Here, they're also talking about fraud. And they're talking about the fake electors being a fraud. And that is a paper case. That's a presentation of paper to Congress intended to obstruct what they were going to do on January 6th.

So he's got a problem. This win is not a big win for him. It might be for some of the others to get their sentences reduced, because that charge may be let go, and so now they will be sentenced differently for the other charges they had. But it's not a big win for Donald Trump. I think that Jack is well aware of what he needed to do.

WHITFIELD: OK. And do you think Special Counsel Jack Smith's obstruction charges against Trump will not be impacted at all by this ruling?

SWARTZ: I really don't believe that it will be. There will be some parts of the conspiracy count that may be subject to it for overt acts that he did. But the truth of the matter is that he was part of this fake electors scheme. They created fraudulent papers. And some of them were presented to members of Congress. There were clear attempts to use them to stop the actions of Congress on January 6th. So it's really not that big a win for Trump.

WHITFIELD: All right, so let's move on to the classified documents case where Judge Aileen Cannon in Florida is opening the door for Donald Trump to challenge key evidence in the classified documents case against him. A Florida federal judge wants to hold more hearings on Trump's attempts to challenge key evidence. Cannon wants more evidence about the language in the FBI's warrant. Is this normal?

SWARTZ: Well, there are a bunch of things here. The first thing is that she's calling it a Franks hearing. That's based on the case of Delaware versus Franks. In that particular case, what they talk about is that a defendant can challenge a warrant, that is the affidavit that the warrant is based on, on the idea that the police officers or whoever issued the affidavit in support either had a reckless disregard for the truth or actually lied. There is really no evidence to support that there was a reckless disregard for the truth. She's trying to bootstrap onto that that Corcoran, the attorney, was forced to testify and that the evidence that he gave was illegally obtained by the government.

The problem is that there's a district court case that says that he had to furnish that evidence. There's a D.C. circuit case that says he had to give up that evidence. It is not her position to overturn that and say this D.C. circuit was wrong.

[14:20:01] On top of which even if she thinks they're wrong, there's a good faith exception, and that is, if the affidavit was facially valid and the warrant was facially valid, then she can't, under the good faith exception, suppress that evidence.

In addition to that, they're challenging what's known as the particularity clause. It's in the Fourth Amendment, that you must particularly state in the warrant the person or evidence to be seized, and the place to be searched. The place to be searched was the entirety of Mar-a-Lago, and the particularity clause doesn't require that you say exactly what document you want. You can say that there's a class of documents that you want, and that clearly stated in the warrant. So the particularity clause challenge really holds no water. It's like saying, I'm in there to grab any guns I can find. They don't have to say they know exactly which guns are in there. They don't have to stay exactly what drugs are in there. All they have to say is this is what they're looking for. And if they find those documents or those drugs or those guns, in the case of those type of warrants, they can seize them even if they don't know exactly what they are.

These challenges should have been handled by way -- because the facts are known, should have been handled by way a briefing and she should have already ruled on this. There is no need for additional evidence. She, as always, is just stalling off the end result, which is a trial.

WHITFIELD: All right, Judge Jeff Swartz, thank you so much.

SWARTZ: Have a good day, Fred.

WHITFIELD: You, too.

Still ahead, a Southwest Airlines flight from Portland, Maine, takes off from a closed runway, sending employees on the runway scrambling to get out of the way. The new investigation from the FAA.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: At least 60 homes were evacuated as a wildfire continues to burn parts of Arizona's Maricopa County. Fire officials posted an update saying they are making progress containing the nearly 4,000- acre massive wildfire, but the Bolder View fire has now spread to Scottsdale, a suburb north of Phoenix. And the U.S. Forest Service reported flames as high as 20 to 40 feet in some areas. The fire, which investigators say was ignited by humans, began on Thursday and continues to be fueled by high winds and dry conditions.

And a close call at an airport in Portland, Maine. A southwest flight took off from a closed runway, sending workers scrambling. And now NTSB officials are investigating how that happened. The workers are OK. The FAA telling CNN they managed to get off the runway before the plane began its takeoff. The runway has been closed overnight for construction project for several months. According to air traffic controller recordings, the pilots were warned the runway was closed and an airport vehicle was also on that runway. But the Southwest pilots never heard the warnings, which were reportedly communicated on a different frequency. It was an air traffic controller near Boston that informed the pilots that they took off three minutes early from a closed runway. A statement from Southwest says the flight continued safely to its destination.

And just in time for summer, a new wave of COVID-19 is hitting the country. Cases are rising in as many as 38 states according to data from the CDC. CNN medical correspondent Meg Tirrell explains this summer surge is fueled in part by a new variant.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: We often see a summer bump in COVID rates in the U.S., and we are seeing that right now as well. Experts think this could be because the hot weather forces people inside into the air conditioning. And we're seeing this bump maybe a little bit earlier this year, than we've seen in previous seasons. We know that we've been dealing with a lot of hot weather. Typically that comes ahead of a bigger wave that we see in the fall and the winter of COVID, so we'll see if we see that this year as well.

But the CDC tracks this through a couple of different metrics. One is emergency department visits. Another is hospitalizations, and another is deaths from COVID. Across all of those measures we are seeing bumps in the CDC data of between 15 and 25 percent in most recent weeks worth of data.

But it's really important to put that into context. One way of doing that is to look at wastewater virus levels of the COVID virus across the U.S. And by that measure, the CDC says the levels of the virus are low nationally. They are rising fastest and the south and the west. But if you look at the graph over time, they're really coming off one of the lowest levels over the last couple years. So they are still low really relatively speaking. Where the virus is rising, the CDC has a map of about 38 states where it's rising or likely rising, and those are really all across the map.

Now CDC's advisors met last week, and they record commended that everybody over age six months get an updated COVID vaccine this fall. The vaccines will be updated to more closely track with more recently circulating variants of the virus. CDC also recommends everybody get an updated flu shot this fall, everybody over six months. They point out that more than 75,000 people died from COVID in 2023, and about 45,000 people died from flu in the most recent season. And so these are serious viruses, and they say that getting a vaccine can help protect folks.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

WHITFIELD: Meg Tirrell, thank you so much.

And this just in, the Democratic National Committee plans to hold a call with members this afternoon.

[14:30:01]

This as President Biden and the first lady are attending what his team is calling a, quote, campaign meeting. We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Welcome back. New developments right now on the campaign trail, President Biden is said to be having a, quoting now, campaign meeting with his campaign co-chair in the Hamptons. It comes amid a growing in chorus from concerned Democrats for Biden to end his reelection bid against former President Donald Trump following a disastrous debate on CNN Thursday night.

[14:35:09]

CNN's Arlette Saenz joining us now with the very latest on this. Arlette, so what are you learning about this meeting underway right now?

Well, Fred, President Biden is currently in the Hamptons for a fundraising swing. He had always been expected to make two stops, so we believe that this is the first stop that he is making through this fundraising push. After the Hamptons, he is set to continue on to Red Bank, New Jersey. And it comes at a time when President Biden is trying to ensure that he can continue to bring in the money for his campaign at a time when many Democratic donors have expressed a lot of angst following his debate performance.

Now, the president is accompanied today, the reporters traveling with him said that they saw Jeffrey Katzenberg, his campaign co-chair, who is also a longtime Hollywood producer with a lot of networking in contacts within that Hollywood circuit who has helped Biden raise money for other events, including that L.A. fundraiser with Obama just a few weeks ago.

But the Biden campaign today is also touting the fact that they raised $27 million over the over the past two days, that was on Thursday and Friday, a bright spot that they're trying to point to after the president's performance in the debate. But CNN has spoken with donors who are quite anxious about the president's performance and what it could mean for the future, not just of the ticket, but also the Democratic Party as they're staring down the competition against Trump in November.

Now, today we're also learning that the Democratic National Committee will be holding a meeting with its members this afternoon. The DNC chair Jamie Harrison is expected to talk to the members, I'm told, to provide updates not just on the DNC and voter mobilization efforts, but also to offer a recap of Thursday's debate. That meeting likely an opportunity to try to reassure some Democrats at a time of high anxiety within the party following the president's performance on the debate stage.

WHITFIELD: All right, Arlette Saenz, thanks so much.

All right, for more, let's bring in political reporter for "The Boston Globe," James Pindell. James, great to see you. So Democrats are holding that call this afternoon, as Arlette justice spelled out, President Biden meeting with the campaign co-chair while in the Hamptons. What do you believe the focus of the conversations is all about?

JAMES PINDELL, POLITICAL REPORTER, "BOSTON GLOBE": This is a remarkable moment. I've covered politics for decades now, Fredricka. I think there's only one example, really, you can point to how weird this weekend is and the freak out, and that's the "Access Hollywood" video weekend for the Republicans in 2016. Remember back then people were pulling out a fundraisers. They weren't wanting to be seen. They didn't know what was happening. And there were serious discussions about dropping the top candidate off the ticket, serious questions asked of Republicans, will you actually still vote for this person?

And that's where were at with Democrats now. This meeting being called today is very rare to happen at such a short notice, which shows exactly that Democrats understand, at least the party apparatus does and the campaign does the deep concern, the freak out among many Democrats of where they should be headed right now, and they're trying to get ahead of it.

WHITFIELD: At the same time, while certainly we're hearing about panic, the freakout, as you put it, is there also a chorus that accompanies -- that former President Obama, the vice president, is there a chorus within the Democratic Party, which is saying, here's the plan not to freak out publicly, not to panic publicly. And this is what we ought to be talking about?

PINDELL: Yes, it was a fascinating, say, 12 hours from the moment the debate ended Thursday night until, let's say, noon yesterday, where in that period you had even leaders like U.S. senators, Jack Reed in Rhode Island, Jeanne Shaheen of New Hampshire, party establish, not exactly people who go for headlines, saying, I'm not sure exactly what should happen in the future, and we should wait it out, which is different than saying we're stuck with the guy. I'm backing the guy.

But since noon yesterday, we have now seen clear signs that they're going to have to stick with Biden. And I had breakfast this morning with a Democratic congressman, and he was basically saying, number one, obviously this is bad. Number two, Kamala Harris is not going to fix anything. And three, the focus has to be on defeating Donald Trump instead of promoting Joe Biden.

There's one more thing, Fredricka, I'm struck with you. There's a common phrase that Joe Biden says, he quotes a former Boston mayor Kevin White, who says, don't compare me to the almighty. Compare me to the alternative. And that's going to be a growing theme, I think, of this campaign.

[10:40:02]

Of course, many Americans want to compare Joe Biden to those who are the living, and that's going to be Joe Biden's biggest struggle, I think, going forward.

WHITFIELD: Well, what's interesting, you said that about the comparison, though, because that's what Vice President Kamala Harris was doing in the post-debate conversation, saying, you've got to -- she knows the record that he's had for the last three years. That's what you should be measuring him on, not style compared to Donald Trump. So she's getting a lot of praise for the way she's handled things and how she's trying to redirect the narrative. So do you see that she can be used constructively to help rebuild, I guess, the style or performance or the image of the president at this juncture?

PINDELL: Two points. Number one, Kamala Harris obviously had a very rocky start as a vice president. And I think we've seen her in the last six months sort of come into her own, being used more as a campaign surrogate, clearly on abortion, no question, but also around the country. She obviously was in Las Vegas yesterday doing it, and the campaign feels more comfortable with her doing that.

But to your point, this vice presidential debate may be the most important vice president debate we've seen in modern times. Obviously, both major nominees are quite old. People are looking for the future, and after Joe Biden's debate performance on Thursday night, there's going to be a lot more pressure on Kamala Harris to perform.

WHITFIELD: OK, and then as it relates to Biden's performance, if his performance on the debate stage is, well, many people have called it being very damaging, isn't it that much more damaging when you have leading Democrats who are now challenging whether he should step aside? Billionaire Mark Cuban said this morning on CNN that Biden should be replaced. Do you see Democratic leadership going into damage control, trying to undermine those arguments because arguments like that only further damage the standing of Biden on the public stage right now?

PINDELL: There's no question. And that's why there's an emergency meeting today of the DNC, this afternoon from the DNC. That's why there was an all hands on deck meeting inside the Biden campaign yesterday. They are trained to stem that. This is obviously not helpful to the Biden campaign.

But Democrats, I do think, are allowed to explore the possibility whether or not this is actually working, whether he actually lost the entire election on Thursday. It's a dramatic statement, but it felt so epically bad Thursday night.

But going forward, look, logistically speaking we're not going to have a floor fight in the way we're headed right out. Democrats, it's a fun little quick, but they have to, because of Ohio, 90 days for there to be nominee, to put someone on the ballot, they're going to gather on a virtual meeting before the Democratic National Convention. Obviously, Joe Biden has almost 97 percent of all committed delegates on that first ballot.

Right now, this is up to Joe Biden. If he does not want to be the nominee, he's the only one who can decide that. No one else can decide that. And if he decides not to run, it's logistically speaking much easier for him to pick Kamala Harris, even though I don't think it's going to solve much, versus opening up this convention to chaos. I don't think he wants that. But obviously it would be much more exciting for us political reporters, wouldn't it?

(LAUGHTER) WHITFIELD: All right, James Pindell, thank you so much, great to see you.

PINDELL: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: And tomorrow, former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Congressman James Clyburn, and Senator Lindsey Graham all joining Jake Tapper on State of the Union to discuss the fallout from the presidential debate and what comes next for Donald Trump and President Biden. That's tomorrow morning, 9:00 a.m.

All right, a new us Supreme Court ruling allows states to ban homeless people from sleeping outside. Is this a war on the poor or an answer to a growing crisis? We'll discuss, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:49:00]

WHITFIELD: The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in favor of an Oregon town that punishes the homeless for sleeping outside. Justice Neil Gorsuch wrote the six-to-three majority opinion which rejected arguments that anti-camping laws violated the Constitution as cruel and unusual punishment. Homeless people in Grants Pass, Oregon, could now face hundreds of dollars in fines or even jail time for sleeping in public spaces. An attorney representing Grants Pass said, quote, "The U.S. Supreme Court delivered urgent relief to the many communities that have struggled to address the growing problem of dangerous encampments. The court has now restored the ability of cities on the front lines of this crisis to develop lasting solutions that meet the needs of the most vulnerable members of their communities while also keeping our public spaces safe and clean."

Places like San Francisco face a serious homelessness crisis. The city's Democratic mayor, London Breed, is praising the court's decision.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[14:50:03]

MAYOR LONDON BREED, SAN FRANCISCO: With this opportunity, we'll be able to do more to clean and clear our streets, especially for those who are refusing shelter and services with the city.

I want to be very clear -- camping on the streets of San Francisco is already prohibited. Like, this is not something that should be happening in general. And so as a result of this decision, we are able to enforce the law and to clear the encampments off the street now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Joining me right now is Will Knight, a Director for the National Homelessness Law Center and former public defender. Will, great to see you.

WILLIAM KNIGHT, DECRIMINALIZATION DIRECTOR, NATIONAL HOMELESSNESS LAW CENTER: Thank you for having me, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, so help explain when behavior from a homeless person in say, Grants Pass, Oregon, is a crime?

KNIGHT: That's not what this case is about. It's not about behavior of homeless people. This is about access to affordable housing. Homelessness is caused by a lack of access to affordable housing. And right now, we are in the middle of the worst spike in housing costs that we've ever seen since at least the Great Depression.

WHITFIELD: Well, but it is behavior right, or actions, because it isn't just being homeless that you can now be targeted and penalized or fined based on this decision. It is about presenting bedding, putting up an encampment. And you heard London Breed in San Francisco talking about encampments. They are now -- they now have the endorsement, the authority by the U.S. Supreme Court to go ahead and remove those encampments. So when I ask about behavior, it is someone who is homeless in Grants Pass or perhaps even other cities now, if they erect a tent in a city park, they can now be subjected to fines or even jail time.

KNIGHT: Once again, that's not what this case is about. People don't choose homelessness. People end up in homelessness because they lose access to housing. And what the Supreme Court held is that the Eighth Amendment does not protect homeless people from being punished, for being criminally punished simply for existing in public, for using a blanket to try and survive a winter night in a city that had literally a blizzard just a week or two before oral argument. It's not about behavior. It's about punishing poor people for existing. And the Supreme Court just gave every city in the country permission to do that.

WHITFIELD: So you are worried about what's happening now. The consequences from this ruling is what, as you see it?

KNIGHT: It's absolutely going to make homelessness worse. Like I said, the Supreme Court just gave permission to every other sundown town in the country, like Grants Pass, to throw as many police and prosecutors as they want at poor people to try to put them in cages or try to displace them, invisiblize them, make them go away. But you can't punish homelessness away. If we could, we would have done it hundreds of years ago. This isn't the first time folks have tried. The only thing that solves homelessness is protecting access to decent, affordable housing.

WHITFIELD: But as a result of the ruling, does this now give some cities, including Grants Pass, Oregon, now the justification to fine and perhaps even put in jail people who don't have a place to live?

KNIGHT: It absolutely does. And it's going to make homelessness worse. Decades of research from government agencies, from academic institutes, from experts on all sides of the aisle have shown us that punishment, criminal punishment particularly, of homelessness is the least effective, most harmful, and counterproductive, and also the most expensive response that we can have to homelessness. It's going to make homelessness worse, and it's going to make all of us worse off for it.

WHITFIELD: And so obviously some people will be fined. They're not going to be able to pay the fine. Some people will be jailed, and then some of these cities are going to find themselves with very overcrowded jails. Then what?

KNIGHT: Well, we need to do something about this. So this is why the National Homelessness Law Center is calling on our policymakers at all levels, local and the Biden administration right now, to invest in access to affordable housing, to fund housing, and to solve homelessness.

At the end of the day, the courts were never going to solve homelessness. this is the same court that just stripped away protections, environmental protections from the country, that stripped rights away from women to make decisions for their own bodies. Of course, they were going to take rights away from vulnerable people in this situation. And they were never going to solve this problem. But right now, we can invest in access to affordable housing.

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It's the -- it's how we beat modern homelessness the first time we saw it right after the Great Depression. And we're calling on the Biden administration right now to invest in housing and to solve homelessness.

WHITFIELD: OK, and that's not an immediate answer that would be forthcoming either. That, too, is going to take potentially a very long time.

KNIGHT: It may, but there are things we can do in the meantime. In fact, the state of Oregon passed laws enshrining this principle, that homeless people shouldn't be punished simply for existing. And so while the Supreme Court did make this terrible ruling, and it's a dog whistle that a lot of folks are going to here around the country and they're going to start making things worse. At least in Grants Pass, it's going back to the lower courts where there's still an injunction based on the excessive fines clause of the Eighth Amendment, and where there are laws made by local policymakers protecting the rights of homeless people. And we can do that everywhere else in the country as well.

WHITFIELD: All right, Will Knight, so glad you could join us to express your concerns now as a result of the Supreme Court ruling, director for the National Homelessness Law Center and a former public defender. Appreciate it.

KNIGHT: Thank you, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Coming up, new warnings that tropical storm Beryl will become a dangerous major hurricane. The NOAA director joining me next.

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