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CNN International: Biden Welcomes NATO Leaders Amid Campaign Concerns; Trump Returns To Trail and Revels In Democratic Turmoil; Ukraine: New Weapons Will "Significantly Strengthen" Air Defense; Alec Baldwin's Movie Set Shooting Trial Underway; No Return Date Set For Boeing Astronauts Stuck On ISS. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired July 10, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:37]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: It's 8:00 p.m. in London, 10:00 p.m. in Kyiv, 1:00 p.m. in Santa Fe, New Mexico, 3:00 p.m. here in Washington.

I'm Jim Sciutto. Thanks so much for joining me today on CNN NEWSROOM. Let's get right to the news.

President Joe Biden is sending a forceful message to Russia's Vladimir Putin at this year's NATO summit here in Washington, rolling out a new weapons package for Ukraine in its war against Russia and touting increased defense spending from the growing alliance. But on his own political frontline at home, there is increasing trouble for his reelection bid, this time coming from Hollywood, some Democratic lawmakers, including some of his staunchest allies.

George Clooney, an A-list actor, prominent Democratic donor, only last month hosted the most lucrative Democratic fundraiser in the party's history, has now published a "New York Times" op-ed calling for Biden to step aside. Echoing that call, the first Democratic member at a competitive House district, a frontline Democrat as we call them, New York Congressman Pat Ryan.

And then this from a close partner, Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): It's up to the president to decide if he is going to run. We're encouraging him to make that decision. I want him to do whatever he decides to do. And that's -- that's the way it is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)(

SCIUTTO: Simply leave the door open.

CNN's Jeff Zeleny joins me now for more.

Listen, the NATO summit is big. There's a major announcements there and they're many things for the alliance to focus on this week, including the largest war in Europe since World War II is still ongoing. But the question now about Biden's future is one that is occupying him, and frankly, many of the NATO officials I've been speaking with myself.

Is there any movement in either direction in the last 24 hours? Is that whether he stays in or does not stay in?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Jim, I think the comments from former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi this morning were very significant and here's why -- she basically reopen the door to allowing a permission structure for other Democrats who are concerned to come forward and say, the president needs to change course here.

The White House thought they were on the way to --

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

ZELENY: -- closing that door. They thought that the president basically had shored up support from the Congressional Black Caucus, the Hispanic Caucus, labor and others, really all parts of his coalition. And she said very clearly, let's wait until the end of this week, and let's see what the president's decision is.

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

ZELENY: So those words sound like, oh, she's leaving it up to the president. Not necessarily. Talking to Democrats behind the scene say that she was sending a very intentional message, she was saying that at the end of this week, at the end of NATO, to the president's have to reassess.

But the words from George Clooney in that "New York Times" op-ed, let's look at one sentence in particular said, it's devastating to say it, but the Joe Biden, I was with three weeks ago at the fundraiser was not the Joe "big f-ing deal" Biden of 2010. He wasn't even the Joe Biden of 2020. He was the same man we all witnessed at the debate.

This right here --

SCIUTTO: It's a rough line.

ZELENY: -- is the -- really answers the questions of what the president's team was doing.

They push back on suggestions earlier that he was not in full shape at that fundraiser in Los Angeles, just three weeks ago. But George Clooney was with the president behind stage. He said what no one else has said publicly, that who he saw that night at the Peacock Theater in downtown Los Angeles was the same one he saw on the debates stage. So that is really, really crushing.

SCIUTTO: The read, is that Pelosi is opening the door to the president to make his own decision, in her words, to leave what would constitute her closing the door for him, right, taking giving a push if it were to come to that point.

I think that she would say more after the NATO meeting, as well as some other senior party elders present potentially the president, with some data, showing that this is what would happen to the Democratic ticket, House and Senate races if you stay in.

Unclear, if that would work, because the president obviously takes his counsel from his family and a very tight circle. But they also may not do this. They don't want to.

This is the conundrum, if you will, talking to a variety of Democrats, they don't want to further weaken or damaged him by talking about the fact that he has to go. That's why she's trying to sort of gently send the message here, but there are still people in the party who are convinced he would lose and would take the party down with him.

[15:00:07]

SCIUTTO: Right.

ZELENY: So, there's about probably two weeks left of time, next week is the Republican convention. It gives them a bit of time, but after that time is essentially out.

SCIUTTO: And it seems notable effort not to do it while you have the leaders of the world here in Washington --

ZELENY: For sure.

SCIUTTO: NATO 75th anniversary. Jeff Zeleny, thanks so much.

So after a few days of a relatively quiet, former President Trump, he returned to his familiar rally forum last night in Miami, relishing it seemed in the Democratic division, hitting his opponent's presidential ticket while teasing his own upcoming announcement as a VP pick.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Radical left Democrat Party is divided and chaos and having a full scale break down all because they can't decide which of their candidates is more unfit to be president, sleepy crooked Joe Biden or laughing Kamala.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: He seems to have settled on laughing Kamala, although he mispronounces her name as how he's going to refer to her.

CNN political reporter, Alayna Treene, joins me now.

Alayna, spotlight has been off Trump to some degree deliberately, right, as they seem to make a decision to let the Democrats own the headline. But, of course, next week, Republican convention. Bring us up to speed on his message at the convention and where we stand on his VP pick.

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, there's a few things, Jim, one for his message, I'll start there. It's going to be the Trump show, and I think it's actually fascinating to watch, especially if you compare it to past conventions in 2016, he was facing infighting within his party. Ted Cruz famously would not endorse him, told people to vote their conscience in 2020, he could not put on the show that he wanted because it was the middle of a pandemic.

And this year, he really does have the unity of Republicans behind him, particularly those who will be there in Milwaukee with him. And I think it is a strong contrast to what we are seeing happened with Democrats in the questions over whether Joe Biden is fit to serve for another four years.

But I do want to just briefly turn your attention to something I found most notable about that rally last night, it was his first public event since the debate. He was definitely trying to stay out of the spotlight and let Biden be the story for a week, but we heard him ramp up attacks on Vice President Kamala Harris and what's interesting about that is Donald Trump and his team have actually largely ignored attacking Harris for the past several months and really have kept their focus on Joe Biden, but clearly now, they're really monitoring what is happening behind the scenes with Democrats and they are watching just like the rest of America about what will happen.

I want you to take a listen to exactly what Donald Trump said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Whatever else can be said about crooked Joe Biden, you have to give him credit for one brilliant decision, probably the smartest decision he's ever made, he picked Kamala Harris as his vice president.

(BOOS)

No, it was brilliant because it was an insurance policy, may be the best insurance policy I've ever seen, Marco. If Joe had picked someone even halfway competent, they would have bounced him from office years ago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: So as you can see there, Donald Trump really dug in and he repeatedly mispronounced Harris's name. It's Kamala Harris, that was part I'm told of his attacks on her.

But look, when I talked to Donald Trumps team, they tell me that they really do want Joe Biden to continue on to be the opponent. We heard Donald Trump himself reference that and say that in an interview today, and part of that is because they have spent millions of dollars mining data on ads focused on attacking Joe Biden. It's uncertain what would happen if he is not the man at the top of the Democratic ticket.

And so, they are encouraged by him, kind of hanging on. And as for vice president and what Donald Trump will do with that pick, I want to note that Marco Rubio was actually at that rally in Miami last night, he brought his whole family. He spoke before Donald Trump took the stage, and Donald Trump taunted him, and he even joked at one point that, look, there's so many press here because they expect me to announce that Marco Rubio is my pick. But as of now, I continue to be told by Donald Trump's team that they

genuinely do not know who he was going to choose. And they also don't even think that Donald Trump knows who that's going to be. But they do have two events next week where the vice presidential nominee is going to be at these two large donor events. And so it's coming but it's still unclear exactly when -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: You know, and the vice president's name, it's not clear whether he knows that he's mispronouncing the name or he does so deliberately, each one you can criticize each, each one, I imagine.

Alayna Treene, thanks so much.

Let's bring in our political panel, Ron Brownstein of "The Atlantic", Mychael Schnell of "The Hill".

Mychael, if I could begin with you because I know you've been a Capitol Hill all day, where do Democrats stand on this?

[15:10:07]

I mean, is it open debate inside the party or is there a public position and a private position?

We will come back to her.

Ron, I wonder what your read is of the politics of this?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, yeah. I mean, look, I you know, I think I have spoken to a broad range of Democratic donors, strategists, political operatives, people running statewide campaigns in the battleground states.

And it is not a universal view, Jim, but it is a predominant view that Biden cannot recover from what happened at the debate, in part because, you know as political professionals often say the most dangerous, dangerous thing in politics is to confirm a preexisting concern that voters had and going into the debate, something like two- thirds of Americans said they worried that too old. You have --

(CROSSTALK)

SCIUTTO: Go ahead.

BROWNSTEIN: So, you know, I think there's a lot of -- I think there's a lot of rock concern privately that Democrats have been reluctant to express publicly, and you have this incredible sense of paralysis in the party.

You know, I noted on CNN.com yesterday that if this election goes badly, Republicans could establish a majority in the Senate that would be very, very difficult for Democrats to overturn before 2030, and in those years, they could appoint replacements for Alito and Thomas who sit on the court for decades.

I mean, the stakes are enormous and yet very few Democrats are willing to express their concerns publicly at this point.

SCIUTTO: Mychael, we have you back I think.

Let me ask you this because if the president were to step aside, you need to immediately decide next steps, is it an open primary? Is it a series of town halls? Is it a direct transfer of the nomination to Kamala Harris have Democrats even gotten close to getting that far?

MYCHAEL SCHNELL, CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER, THE HILL: No, not yet, Jim. And look, I've asked Democratic lawmakers in the House what that will look like, and I'm hearing from folks that they're still trying to figure out if we will even get to that point because as it was going to mention before, it's still a real debate within the House Democratic credit caucus about whether or not President Biden should remain at the top of the ticket.

Now, while publicly, we have heard from way more Democrats who have said that he should remain the nominee and should be steadfast until November, there are multiple -- even more, there are more lawmakers behind the scenes who have not yet publicly expressed their position, but a lot of them say that President Biden should not be at the top of the ticket. That number swelled to eight today with Congressman Pat Ryan joining the group.

But in terms of next steps, if Joe Biden were to step down, those are all the key questions here, but it's unclear at this moment. Conventional wisdom would say it would be Vice President Kamala Harris to take the top of the ticket, then there are of course, questions about who the vice president would be. This is all a completely fluid conversation. And a lot of lawmakers don't exactly know how it will end.

SCIUTTO: You know, Ron, it always strikes me that when folks ask me your question may be of the same experience, like, what are Democrats going to do here, right? It assumes that there's some sort of, you know, top tier group of Democrats and a smoke-filled, right? Making this decision and gaming out. He said, there just isn't, it's not the nature of the process. And by the way, wasn't the nature of the process on the Republican side either, we should note.

Who would make any of these decisions.

BROWNSTEIN: Yeah.

SCIUTTO: Right? I mean, is there a small group that would get together a meeting of the muddle, or without be another muddle?

BROWNSTEIN: There's a whole -- there's a whole series of, you know questions wrapped up in that, in that big question.

First of all, on the core question of whether Biden stays in or not, that's Biden, right? I mean, and its not -- I've talked to people who believe that he is maybe talking to for political advisers at most on this decision, plus his family. And I've talked to people to think that no one outside of Nancy Pelosi or Jim Clyburn, maybe Chuck Schumer would have some influence on what he does. You know, the question of what comes next if he steps aside, I think it would be less complex than it than it appears today, because as you're saying, there is a demand side, there is a demand in the Democratic Party for a process. Not everyone would want to go to Vice President Harris even if Biden stepped aside.

But I'm not sure there would be the supply side available. I'm not sure if top-tier candidates, who many Democrats have a better chance than Harris, like Governors Whitmer, Newsom, or Wes Moore would really run against him. There's a lot of reasons why alienating key constituencies, Black voters, women's group. If he got out of the race, I mean, that would be climbing an incredible mountain for those who are dubious of his chances, I'm not sure they'd be the stomach for climbing another mountain, trying to get around her.

I think it actually could coalesce fairly quickly. I think there would be a fair amount of excitement.

[15:15:00]

Not that Democrats are obtuse to the risks that she poses. But, you know, it's a question of shuffling the deck or continuing to play a hand that many of them think is a losing hand.

SCIUTTO: Mychael, you spent a lot of time on the Hill and it's been interesting to watch the evolution of public messaging from Democratic lawmakers, giving the example of one Ritchie Torres in a relative -- relatively safe Democratic seat.

On Monday, he says via tweet, the intraparty mixed messaging strikes me as deeply self-destructive. By Tuesday, though, 24 hours later, he says: An unsentimental analysis of the cold hard numbers should inform what we decide and whom we nominate.

He's not the only ones saying that, right? I mean, Senator Michael Bennet said it on CNN's air last night that the numbers they're seeing show this is a losing bet and I wonder if that's a common thing you hear on the Hill from Democratic lawmakers?

SCHNELL: Yeah, it is, Jim. And I don't know if this is essentially an evolution of messaging or just people becoming more public with what they've been thinking and saying privately because the day after the debate, I spoke to House Democrats who said that people may not come out publicly and voice concerns with President Biden's debate performance, but there are a lot of people behind the scenes who think that he should step down.

Now, I've heard from some of those very House Democrats who are keeping their cards close to their vest, not publicly coming out, but they do think that he should withdraw. They're waiting to see some post-debate polling to see if it is indeed the fact that President Biden is a drag on some of those down-ballot races. And will put -- put Democrats at risk of losing the House.

Now, we got a taste of that yesterday with Cook Political Report moving some states and a district in former President Trump's direction for the presidential, not a good sign for president Biden.

But I'm hearing from Democratic lawmakers that they will potentially go public with their qualms and with their belief that Biden should step aside if the numbers back up, what they think that President Biden's a drag on the ticket.

SCIUTTO: I mean, it's been two weeks. They've got to have run a lot of number. I mean, I'm sort of skeptical of this kind of like waiting for what numbers when. I do want to ask you, Ron, because you can see on our banner there we've got news that NBC is going to air a taped interview with Biden on Monday, not unlike what we saw from ABC on Friday, which didn't seem to change the Democratic calculus at all.

BROWNSTEIN: Much.

SCIUTTO: So, why is the White House doing this?

BROWNSTEIN: Because they have to do -- they have to take some steps to respond to Democrats who are demanding that we show that he can handle this. They're not doing the thing that people want to see most, which is host a series of town halls with voters. And you know, in terms of this polling, whatever polling says now about the down-ballot impact, it is in the last two times he had a presidential election, 2016 and 2020. There have been 69 Senate races because of some open seats, exactly one senator out of those 69 has won in a state that voted the other way for president.

So while Democrats are kind of reassured or bound by the fact that many of them are running a head now, it's not clear that can last all the way to November.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. The split ballot -- split ticket -- split ballot thing is -- well, it'd be a new phenomenon relatively.

Good to have you both, Ron, Mychael, thanks so much and I know we'll be talking about this some more.

Still ahead, new promises of military support for Ukraine as its president meets with NATO leaders here in Washington still pushing for membership in the alliance. This comes days after dozens were killed in a Russian missile strike in Kyiv on a children's hospital.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:26:39]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back.

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg has a simple message for the alliance at this year's summit here in Washington, quote, the time to stand for freedom and democracy is now, the place is Ukraine.

At the summit, the U.S., Norway, Belgium, Denmark, and the Netherlands announced Ukrainians will soon be flying long awaited F-16 fighter jets this summer. Monday's Russian attack on Ukraine's largest children's hospital underscore the desperate need for additional air defense and air defense systems.

CNN senior international correspondent Fred Pleitgen is in Kyiv.

You know, Fred, I want to over or underestimate the importance of the arrival of a new weapons system that we've seen a whole series of them go in over time. Some with greater and more lasting effect than others, but are the F-16s seen as particularly key or just kind of another arrow in the quiver?

Having -- we're going to come back to Fred there in just a moment. Had a picture, but not his audio.

So we're going to go back to Ukraine this time with Andriy Zagorodnyuk. He's a former Ukrainian defense minister and chairman for the Center for Defense Strategies.

Good to have you on, Andriy, and I might ask you the same question I asked our reporter, Fred, there. Are F-16s, a game changer potentially in the war or is it more, like I said, another arrow in the quiver, another option in effect for Ukraine, but not a decisive one?

ANDRIY ZAGORODNYUK, FORMER UKRAINIAN DEFENSE MINISTER: Certainly, the modern aviation or more, more and modern aviation than Ukraine used to have a certainly going to be a game changer, and that's -- that's for sure.

The question is we do need to have better versions of F-16s, like was a better modernization because some of them, as we know, are coming with quite old standard. And the key question is whether they're going to be competitive with Russian weapons, so whether they will be able to intercept rockets, whether they will be able to intercept planes and basically keep Russia aviation away.

But the second question there is like a degree, some degree of pessimism right now because some experts consider that they're not going to be able to do that. So we'll need to go -- they need to go through step modernization in order to be able to do that, but some say that the rockets will be -- at least some of the rockets which they can actually try to intercept. Only experience will show.

For sure, the arrival of the ground-based air defenses is more certain because we know those models. We know how they work. They work actually quite well but Russia is also know that and that's why they're sending so many the same time.

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

ZAGORODNYUK: Not even within a day or same several hours, they're sending them in same -- within the same minutes so that they arrive in all different locations and overwhelming the system.

SCIUTTO: Russia has gotten very good at electronic warfare in Ukraine. We've seen those electronic warfare capabilities neutralize even some fairly high-end western systems that reducing, for instance, the effectiveness of the HIMARS system and the smart -- the smart artillery shells. Are there weapons that Russia hasn't figured out? I mean, I know the

Patriots are still quite successful. It seems that the Kalibr, the cruise missiles, the Storm Shadow cruise missiles still quite effective.

[15:25:06]

But what -- what is proven most effective for Ukrainian forces?

ZAGORODNYUK: You mentioned like Patriots still working, ATACMS working very well, extremely well. Storm Shadow, Scalp, they all work well.

I have to say this is all about the I said an arms race with the EW, with electronic warfare. And the older systems, the systems where GPS as well guidance systems were built some years ago, many years ago. So they may not be competitive with the new versions of electronic warfare, where we could update them or where we go to break them with, modernize them with the new versions. They would work well.

So they actually the carriers, the rockets themselves have very, very good, they extremely well done. It's a question of the -- having more modern guidance systems rather than the sun, which were manufactured like decade ago or so.

SCIUTTO: Okay. Finally, before we go, you're aware of the ongoing political debate in this country. We have an election coming up, concerns about President Biden's chances of reelection. The fact is even before these recent concerns post-debate, I heard great concern from European officials about this election and the prospect of Trump winning and what that means for NATO, but also for continued Ukraine aid.

Do you believe that the future of Ukrainian aid from the U.S. is in effect going to be decided by this election in November?

ZAGORODNYUK: What we're hearing right now of some of the candidates, let's put it this way, that there will be a proposal to Putin to keep some territory in exchange of the ceasefire. That's extremely naive to think that Putin is but some pieces of Donbas or some pieces of thousand Ukraine. He's -- he wants to destroy Ukraine as a concept. He wants to destroy their security architecture in Europe and he wants to destroy world order and negate international law.

So he has very serious goals in this war. And to think that we can give him some towns and some territories, some hundreds of square kilometers and he will come down -- I mean, that just doesn't work like that, and offering Ukrainian territory in exchange for that sort of ambiguous -- ambiguity and ambiguous perspectives of some ceasefire is extremely dangerous, particularly if Ukraine is not involved in these negotiations.

So when somebody says that, well, we'll put Ukraine into negotiations. And if it doesn't want to go, we'll cut the aid. Yes, it is very much concerning. That's hugely concerning and I don't think that means any strategic interest to United States or any other allies, and for sure not Ukraine.

SCIUTTO: Andriy Zagorodnyuk, thanks so much for joining us and please, please keep yourself safe.

ZAGORODNYUK: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: We do now have Fred Pleitgen back in Kyiv, got the audio fixed.

So, Fred, I was asking about just when you speak to Ukrainians, what importance do they attach to the F-16s or indeed to any one weapon system as each one is debated?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, first of all, I think that obviously no one weapon system is completely change the trajectory that Ukrainians believe that the war that's ongoing, but they do say that the F-16 is one that to them is extremely important. One of the main reasons for that is plain and simple as that their air force currently is being depleted every day. They, of course, fly old Soviet era planes. A lot of those have been shot down. Some of those have crashed. So their air force, as is, is being depleted and they certainly aren't going to get additional spare parts from the manufacturer of those aircraft, which of course are sitting in Russia.

So they need new planes and they know that they need to make their air force one that is of Western standards, and one of the things that Andriy was saying is obviously absolutely key in all of that. If you look at right now, the Ukrainian Air Force, they simply can't match up with what the Russians are flying at the moment. And it's a big issue for Ukrainian frontline troops because the Russians have now developed bombs, Jim, with glide kits and guidance kits from in which they can drop those bombs further away from the frontline than before. And the Ukrainians are saying they need the F-16s with their more powerful radars to be able to engage those Russian jets before they come into striking distance of Ukrainian frontline positions, doesn't necessarily mean they need to shoot the Russian jets down, but the Russian jets need to know that said the F-16s are watching them in see them and could engage them for the Russians not to be able to fly there.

So they do believe it could be key for their frontline troops. Volodymyr Zelenskyy, Jim, today also said he believes it could be key for air defense to, for instance, also help shoot down cruise missiles as well, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Fred Pleitgen, thanks so much. Please be safe.

Coming up, stuck in space. New information from NASA and Boeing about when exactly two Americans still stuck on the international space station will finally be able to come down to earth.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:33:09]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back.

Witness testimony is underway in Alec Baldwin's ongoing criminal trial in New Mexico. Baldwin has pleaded not guilty to involuntary manslaughter for the fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins on the set of his movie "Rust" back in 2021.

Following all the latest developments, CNN's Elizabeth Wagmeister.

And, Elizabeth, it seemed a judge's decision this week might have major implications for this case.

ELIZABETH WAGMEISTER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: It certainly did, Jim.

So, earlier this week, in a pretrial hearing, the judge ruled that Baldwin's role as a producer on "Rust" could not be brought up throughout this trial. The reason that's significant is because now, he's only being seen as an actor, which essentially means that he has less responsibility. The prosecution had initially said that they intended to discuss his role as a producer to show that he was the boss and therefore, he would have been more responsible for on-set safety.

But what we saw this morning and opening statements was two completely different narratives. Let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERLINDA JOHNSON, SPECIAL PROSECUTOR: When someone plays make believe with a real gun, in real life workplace, and while playing make believe what that gun violates the cardinal rules of firearms safety peoples lives are endangered and someone could be killed.

ALEX SPIRO, BALDWIN'S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The actor's job is to act, to rehearse, to choreograph his moves, to memorize his lines. In the incident in question, he's pulling a six shooter to try to defend himself. That's why the gun has to be safe before it gets into the actor's hand.

His mind is somewhere else, in the being of another, a century away, an outlaw. He must be able to take that weapon and use it as the person he's acting would.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WAGMEISTER: So there you see the prosecutor is saying that he acted recklessly and that he should have been safer with this gun.

[15:35:07]

And then on the other coin, you have Baldwin's defense saying he's just an actor. It's not his job to keep this gun safe. That would have been the job of the assistant director and also of the armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed.

Now, we all remember that Hannah Gutierrez-Reed. She had her own trial facing the same charge she was recently sentenced to 18 months. So it remains to be seen if that can eviction for her will have any impact. Does that help Baldwin? Obviously, that will be in the jury's hands.

SCIUTTO: No question. A good question. Elizabeth Wagmeister, thanks so much.

Coming up next, arson, bomb plots, surveillance cameras inside Russia's evolving shadow war on NATO members as world leaders gather here in the U.S. capital to discuss the Russian threat.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Now the story we have been following, that's up in space, but still no return date set for the two Boeing astronauts aboard the International Space Station. Suni Williams and Butch Wilmore docked at the ISS on June 6, with plans to stay only about a week. But due to ongoing technical difficulties, they have now been stuck for more than a month, while ground crews investigate and test module before sending them home.

Kristin Fisher, our CNN space and defense correspondent, joins us now.

Kristin, I've heard of a lot of the issues up there, thrusters, et cetera. The astronauts, they held a news conference earlier today. Did we learn anything about how soon these issues might be fixed?

KRISTIN FISHER, CNN SPACE AND DEFENSE CORRESPONDENT: No, we don't have a new return date as for when these astronauts are going to attempt to return back to Earth.

But you know, Jim, this was the first time that we've actually heard from these two astronauts and had a chance to ask them questions since they've been up at the international space station. And despite the issues that you just spoke up, these helium leaks and this issue with the -- issues with the thrusters, Butch, the commander, and then veteran NASA astronaut said today that he remains very confident that Boeing Starliner spacecraft is going to be able to get them home.

[15:40:19]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUTCH WILMORE, ASTRONAUT, BOEING STERLINER CREW MEMBER: Failure is not an option. That's why we are staying here now. We did have some degradation in our thrusters and we know that, and that's why we're staying because were going to test it. That's what we do. That's what we do in this instance.

We're going to get the data that we need to help inform our decisions, so we make the right decisions. And that's why we feel confident.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FISHER: So it's important to note here that both of the issues, the leaks and the thrusters are on a part of this spacecraft that leaves the capsule where the astronauts are before they reenter the Earth's atmosphere.

And so, the thinking is that they would be absolutely fine I want to get back to earth in the Starliner spacecraft as it is right now, the issue and the reason they're still up there, according to NASA and the astronauts today, is that they're troubleshooting. They want to figure out the cause, what caused the helium leaks, what caused these thruster failures so that they can keep this from happening on future missions. But both during a NASA presser and the astronauts today said, they believe this spacecraft is safe to come home on now. They just want to do more testing.

SCIUTTO: Yeah, I suppose that's the most pressing question.

Kristin Fisher, thanks so much. We'll wait for an update.

Earlier this year, we reported on a Russian directed influence operation targeting Estonia, a NATO ally, part of a broader shadow war against NATO just below the threshold of armed conflict. The operation involves a series of attacks, including vandalizing the cars of an interior minister, several monuments, journalists as well.

At the time, Estonia's Prime Minister Kaja Kallas told me, quote, the aim of Russia's influence operations is to influence Estonia's Democratic decision-making.

Now, a senior NATO official is accusing Moscow of engaging in a bold sabotage operation across NATO member states for more than six months.

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. bases in Europe are on the highest alert for a decade. This key American and Polish supply hub, an hour from Ukraine, peppered with air defense. And this Ukrainian cargo plane from Norway, a major part of NATO's weapons supplies to Kyiv. You're watching an odd paradox, the largest, loudest arming efforts of our times happening in their secrecy, fences obscuring what they can.

The main reason the threat of Russian sabotage persistent real growing across Europe along the supply lines to the Ukrainian border here.

Or supply hubs like these never really been more vital for Ukraine trying to hold the frontline, but a senior NATO official has told me of a six to nine months efforts by Russia to sabotage NATO weapons supplies into Ukraine, fair bit of it, going right down these tracks. Now they described it as something that is against at times the point of production against those making the decisions, against the storage of weapons, or even their actual delivery, saying the operation has been bombed.

It, too, is something in the shadows with a huge potential for escalation. This is the moment first broadcast here, a vast saboteur operation in Poland gave itself away, caught on camera is Maxim, a 24- year-old Ukrainian living here, recruited online by Russian agents who first just asked him to daub anti-war graffiti, filmed buying a lot of energy drinks, a move that led Polish agents to arrest him and 15 others because he dropped a receipt from here at a crime scene.

His Russian handler Andrzej had begun asking for much more positioning cameras, some here overlooking these tracks to Ukraine.

Others where Poland trained Ukrainian troops and for Maxim to commit arson. In all, it got him six years in jail.

Amazing how the Russians just recruiting people straight off Telegram, who find themselves here in maximum security.

He gave our producer a rare interview inside. We could not record. So when actor is voicing his words.

MAXIM (through voice actor): It was easy money. I needed money badly. I didn't think any of it could cause any harm. It seemed so insignificant when Andrzej told me to install cameras were Poles were training Ukrainian soldiers, that's when I knew it could be serious. It made me feel uneasy that was when I decided I'd quit. But I never got a chance. I got arrested the next day.

WALSH: Put together, a suspected Russian sabotage is quite widespread with arson around Poland at an ammo depot and even a shopping center, concerns voiced over a fire at a key Berlin metals factory.

[15:45:04]

Czech officials have pointed at Russia over railway hacking. France arrested a pro-Russian separatists plotting to blow up a Paris hardware store and last month, intelligence chiefs warned on a Swedish island close to Russia, there was an increased risk of sabotage, of weapons bound for Ukraine.

But it gets fiercer here right next to Russia in Estonia, Russia's appetite to disrupt led them at this tense border crossing. One may night to sneak out in these thermal camera images and remove the buoys marking where Estonia ends when Russia begins literally removing the border.

Tank traps and razor wires speak of how bad it's got. Estonian GPS signals have been jammed in the skies above. Russians film us filming them. Your job is also to filter out any of the Russian agents who might be being used to come and do hybrid attacks, right?

EERIK PURGEL, HEAD OF ESTONIAN BORDER GUARD BUREAU, EAST PREFECTURE: All the time, 24/7, and trying to filter those people out. I think the Russians now are trying to see how we will react to different things.

WALSH: Security officials say Russia is using amateurs here, too. Ten people arrested in February after an attack on the Estonian interior minister's car, fears the Ukraine war may in the future make Russians more aggressive still.

HARRYS PUUSEPP, ESTONIAN INTERNAL SECURITY SERVICE: We saw significant rise in their activity in the last autumn. We have seen moving towards physical attacks. Yes, they are at a moment where against -- more against properties.

There are people who take part in the war against Ukraine. They have more experience. Their mindset is more violent. They are perhaps not so patient anymore, trying to get results.

WALSH: A shadowy standoff where the unthinkable in a matter of months becomes reality.

Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, Narva, Estonia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Shadow war underway there.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:53:41]

SCIUTTO: Vice President Kamala Harris is raising the alarm over what's known as Project 2025. This is the initiative which is a conservative group's sweeping plans for the next Republican presidency.

As CNN's Tom Foreman reports, Donald Trump is distancing himself from the proposal, but many of his former advisers are deeply involved.

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TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As much as the attack on the Capitol, as much as a Donald Trump rally, Project 2025 has become a call to arms for Republicans.

KEVIN ROBERTS, PRESIDENT OF THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION: We are in the process of the second American Revolution, which will remain bloodless if the left allows it to be.

FOREMAN: And for Democrats --

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): But I see this is basically a continuation of the work of January 6. They're basically picking up where the insurrection has left off.

FOREMAN: Project 2025 is the Heritage Foundation's plan for implementing strictly conservative policies as soon as the next GOP president is elected. In more than 900 pages, hundreds of conservative contributors propose putting the Justice Department entirely under the president's control, which critics fear could unleash Donald Trump's open desire to take revenge on political foes.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Look, when this election is over, based on what they've done, I would have every right to go after them. And it's easy because it's Joe Biden. FOREMAN: The plan calls for even further restrictions on abortion

rights, wanting every elected Republican in state or federal government to, quote, push as hard as possible to protect the unborn in every jurisdiction, a notion President Joe Biden is tagging hard onto his challenger.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This Project 2025 plan will restrict access to birth control. Restricting access to birth control? I'm fighting to protect reproductive freedom.

FOREMAN: But there is much more. Project 2025 would expand the military in the name of defense and dismantle the Department of Homeland Security in the name of savings. It calls federal civilian employees largely underworked, overcompensated and unaccountable, and wants thousands of those nonpartisan government jobs given to Republican loyalists.

REP. TED LIEU (D-CA): This document is creepy as a takeover of American form of government, and it's a collection of extreme MAGA ideas that's going to ruin our way of life.

FOREMAN: The plan pushes tax breaks for churches and church schools, goes after health agencies which backed, quote, un-American mask and vaccine mandates, and says pornography should be outlawed. And while it does not define porn, it says even librarians caught with it should be registered as sex offenders.

PAUL DANA, PROJECT 2025 DIRECTOR: We are historic movement of the conservative coalition coming together to make sure that the next conservative president is ready to hit the ground running day one.

FOREMAN: Well, now, Donald Trump is keeping Project 2025 at arms length, calling parts ridiculous and abysmal.

But he hasn't said which parts.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOREMAN (on camera): Part of Trumps political problem here is that several of the authors of this plan are part of his inside team, making it considerably harder for him to say he didn't know much about it.

Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.

SCIUTTO: Thanks so much for joining me today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.