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Conspiracy Theories Spread After Trump Attack; Crowd Spotted Gunman On Roof Nearly Two Minutes Before Shooting; VP Rivals Harris, Vance Working To Connect Today. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired July 16, 2024 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00]

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Has embraced J.D. Vance --

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes.

HOLMES: In a way that we have not seen with other people. In fact, Don Jr. is one of his closest friends. And on Tuesday of the -- two weeks ago, I believe, or one week ago when he was doing that rally in Miami and Marco Rubio was going to be there, Don Jr. did an entire show about how Marco Rubio shouldn't be the pick for VP because he was too establishment. And instead, obviously, he has been leaning towards Senator J.D. Vance.

When I asked them about this, they say, it's because he has acknowledged that he had this kind of change of course, and what it is that he believes in is the mission of populism. And that is what they really hold on to.

And I will say, it does impact Donald Trump. One is that he has chemistry with J.D. Vance. Two, he thinks he's really good on TV.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR & SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

HOLMES: He thinks that he's also good-looking. He has a good-looking family. And three, a lot of these big MAGA voices, not just Don Jr. It's also Charlie Kirk. These are people who back J.D. Vance. And he feels as though he doesn't really change their mind.

PHILLIP: It doesn't hurt also that he's got the Silicon Valley guys.

HOLMES: Right.

PHILLIP: And Elon Musk yesterday says $45 million a month --

CHALIAN: A month.

PHILLIP: Is going to that Trump super PAC. David, the other thing happening this morning. We saw this kind of I don't want to call it leaks, but it was accidentally posted a video of a call between Donald Trump and RFK Jr. This is fascinating to me because normally a third- party candidate we wouldn't be paying a ton of attention to, but this is someone who has the potential to impact this race. Why is Donald Trump having an in-person meeting with RFK Jr. and calling him on the phone, and they're chit-chatting about vaccine skepticism?

CHALIAN: Yes. Let's put the vaccine skepticism aside for a moment here since we know that approved vaccines are indeed safe and effective in this country. But it does speak to some ideological alignment and where Trump is still in pursuit of something here. I mean, this is what I find so fascinating.

He has the phone call on Sunday, of course, talks about how he's doing after the shooting as well, in addition to the vaccine piece but then the in-person meeting here in Milwaukee on Monday, that is a concerted effort to try and see if there's a way to bring RFK Jr. and his supporters into this Trump fold. It's something that the Trump campaign has been keenly focused on throughout the entirety of this campaign. They are of the mind that there are some real alignments with the RFK Jr., voters. And they saw him as a potential threat. And you see him right now trying to embrace it.

HOLMES: Yes. And I would also say one of the things that we've heard over and over again since the shooting on Saturday is that Donald Trump is actually trying for this message on unity. Now, I will be clear. How long this lasts, if it lasts? We have no idea.

Obviously, Donald Trump is not one for a unified message. But the people I've spoken to who are close to him have said that he feels like a changed man. At least he's saying he is.

One of the things that he's saying is that he's lucky to be alive. So, there is a concerted effort that they're making as a whole on trying to be -- show a united front.

PHILLIP: All right. Kristen Holmes, David Chalian, thank you both very much. And it didn't take long for conspiracy theories about the attempt on Donald Trump's life to start flaring up on the internet. Social media lit up with a slew of wild and unsubstantiated claims about the motivation for the attack, which is still unknown.

CNN's Donie O'Sullivan. He's been tracking all of this. Donie, walk us through what you've been hearing and seeing on the ground here in Milwaukee.

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Abby. Look, after any major breaking news story these days, there's an information void, right? Just naturally after a huge event occurs, we don't have all the facts. We don't have all the information.

But what happens on social media for decree is in that information void, it's filled with conspiracy theories and misinformation. And, of course, we saw it as any cataclysmic event like an attack -- attempted assassination on the U.S. president, of course, would cause this. What we've been seeing is the rise of false conspiracy theories, trying to suggest that there was deliberate negligence on the part of the Secret Service or that in some way the Biden administration wanted this to happen. Of course, there's no evidence at all whatsoever for that.

On the left, among some Democrats, what we've been seeing on social media is this idea that the shooting was staged. That it was staged in some way by Trump or the campaign to get that photo op. The photo of him holding his fist resolute after he got up.

I want to show you two images here side by side that kind of show how this is playing out online. You see an image there, a manipulated image, which appeared -- purports to show Secret Service agents smiling as if to suggest, you know, they were in on this, it all went to plan, they've got their photo shoot. And you can see also the real image there. Obviously, that was not the case.

Now, it's one thing of course, to see this sort of thing playing out online. It's in order to hear it directly from people themselves. And we were at an anti-Trump protest here in Milwaukee outside the RNC yesterday and we spoke to some Democrats. Here's what they have to say.

[11:35:12]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARY MANN, TRUMP PROTESTER: The first thing that ran through my head is because we cannot believe this man ever, that it was somehow fake.

O'SULLIVAN: So, you initially thought it was staged?

MANN: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, as we all did.

MANN: We all did.

O'SULLIVAN: Do you -- do you still believe that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not sure.

MANN: It's not impossible. I couldn't help but wonder because we've been lied to over and over by this man. The way he came up and raised his fist and acted like it was nothing. He wants to make it into something big.

I hate that that's what I'm doing. I hate that that's where I have gone. And I wonder why I've gotten there.

And what really frightens me and scares me and makes me angry is suddenly now I'm in on a conspiracy theory. I'd like to be someone who follows the facts.

O'SULLIVAN: Yes.

MANN: And pays attention to the facts. And so, I'm listening to as much as I can. And I don't want to go down a rabbit hole of conspiracy theories.

(END VIDEO CLIP) O'SULLIVAN: And look, Abby. Credit to those women for being so open and honest there. And you can see that they have seen conspiracy theories on the other side of the aisle about January 6, about the 2020 election.

They know that what they're engaging in this right now is irrational, yet they still can't quite seem to grasp the reality of it. And I think it really says a lot about the information and the misinformation ecosystem we're living in right now in this election year.

PHILLIP: Yes. Very difficult, even for people who want to stick to the facts to get to them --

O'SULLIVAN: Yes.

PHILLIP: Through a sea of falsehoods and misinformation. Donnie O'Sullivan, thank you very much.

And still ahead this hour. We're just going to discuss more findings from the investigation. The FBI, they've gotten into the gunman's phone and his computer. What our sources are telling us about what they found and what's been missing so far?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:41:32]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. CNN analysis of the shooting Saturday in Butler, Pennsylvania shows there was at least one minute and 57 seconds from the time the gunman was spotted by people in the crowds to the time Donald Trump was nearly assassinated. How could that happen? Our expert panel is back with us to try to answer that question.

Law enforcement and national security expert Juliette Kayyem. She was Assistant Secretary at the Department of Homeland. Security Jason Russell was a Secret Service agent. And Darrin Porcher is a former NYPD Lieutenant.

Jason, let me go to you first about that minute and 57 seconds from when the rallygoers were noticing the gunman and when the shots were fired. I mean, there were a lot of people who are trying to call this out. Jason, what do you make of that the amount of time that passed between when just regular bystanders were seeing this shooter up on top of the roof and when those shots were fired?

JASON RUSSELL, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT: Yes. Obviously, a communication lap, right?

ACOSTA: Yes.

RUSSELL: So, you had people who were observing this person showed some concern. But I think what you're going to see is the Secret Service does a good job of kind of centralizing communication. So, they would have had all the different entities that were on site in one room, so that communication can flow really quickly.

I've done dozens of these types of sites in my career as a Secret Service agent. I think what you had was -- you know, what you have in a lot of emergencies was just kind of a gap somewhere in communication. So, the time that it took to get from the bystanders who were observing it to the command post out to the agents was just too long. And unfortunately, we saw a tragedy occur as a result.

ACOSTA: And, Jason, just because I'm -- you have so much Secret Service experience, I want to follow up on that. What do you make of the fact that this shooter was on top of that roof so close to the stage? I mean, that -- I mean, a lot of folks look at that and just say that that doesn't make any sense.

I mean, I can tell you I covered a lot of rallies over the last 20 years or so. I've been to a lot of outdoor rallies. It just seems to me would be standard operating procedure for a building that close to the candidate to be locked down.

RUSSELL: Yes. If not locked down, certainly covered in some way, right?

ACOSTA: Yes.

RUSSELL: I think what you're seeing sometimes in these events, especially in the lead-up to their convention and during a busy campaign year is the Secret Service trying to take limited resources, right, and spread them out as much as they can to cover areas.

ACOSTA: Yes.

RUSSELL: So, I would be shocked, quite frankly, if they had not planned for that building. But I think what you saw was them trying to take care of that cluster of buildings, maybe with a smaller footprint. And clearly, something got missed.

ACOSTA: And, Juliette, I mean, you've had a lot of time to chew on all of this. I mean, does any of this make sense to you? I mean, we still don't have a good answer as to how this person got on the roof.

Apparently, there was a local sniper team on the second floor of that building. How did they not notice this person getting -- the shooter getting on top of their -- I mean, it just -- a lot of it just doesn't make any sense.

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN SENIOR, NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: No, it doesn't. And that's why an independent review is necessary. The one that President Biden has said will start. The Secret Service cannot investigate itself. I don't even think of a different -- a different federal agency should.

The reason why is essentially this is such an epic failure. It is sort of incomprehensible. And I --

ACOSTA: Yes. KAYYEM: And I don't mean to second guess what's going on. It's simply that the number of failures that happened simultaneously from the decision of where the security perimeter is, to lots of people focusing on him. But no one seemed to intervene. They viewed him as suspicious well before he got on the rooftop to the lack of communication that we're talking about. To the response time by the Secret Service. All of that cumulatively led to what is essentially not a very sophisticated actor.

[11:45:16]

ACOSTA: Yes.

KAYYEM: I mean, from what we know, right now, he bought the weapon a couple of days or -- bought the ammunition a couple of days before. There wasn't a lot of -- a sort of sophisticated planning on his part. He's very likely, you know, just -- is not part of the group. And we don't know his motive still. So, this is going to be necessary to answer all those questions.

ACOSTA: Yes. And, Darrin, I do want to ask you about how this blame game is unfolding right now. You have the Secret Service saying, well, we thought the local police were taking care of this. And of course, that we heard overnight from the Fraternal Order of Police defending the officers on the ground, calling this a failure at the management or command level. We had Andrew McCabe, a former Deputy Director of the FBI in the previous hour, you know, essentially saying you know, this is a secret service operation you know, at the end of the day.

DARRIN PORCHER, FORMER NYPD LIEUTENANT: Ultimately, it is a secret service operation. There should have been an advanced team that scoped out the area in question and identified this as a potential threat --

ACOSTA: Yes.

PORCHER: Or a target that personnel should have been placed on. It's clear that there should have been personnel on the roof of this building. It didn't happen.

And what happens in a rural -- a rural state or place such as where this rally occurred in Pennsylvania, you have limited local law enforcement in comparison to a place like New York, where we host the General Assembly, or Los Angeles --

ACOSTA: Yes.

PORCHER: Or Chicago. You have far more local police. So, based on the reduced number of law enforcement personnel that you had to assist the Secret Service, as you -- as Agent Russell -- as Agent Russell mentioned, you're really at a point where you have to do the best that you can. But at the same token, that's no excuse because this should have been covered.

ACOSTA: And, Jason, let me go to you on that. I mean, does the Secret Service just need more resources? RUSSELL: You know, I think, obviously, as the protection, the operational tempo of protection increases, right? I think in that particular day in Pennsylvania alone, you had the vice -- you know, a vice president, you had the first lady, obviously, you had former President Trump leading up to the Republican National Convention coming out of a NATO Summit where you had all these world leaders in. So, I thought -- I think what you saw there was kind of a perfect storm of lack of resources and an increased operational tempo.

So, I wouldn't say yes, I think the secret service needs the ability to have additional resources on site so that they can do a proper security plan. There wasn't advance done on this. There isn't -- you never do a visit without --

ACOSTA: Right.

RUSSELL: This was identified as a potential risk I can promise you that. It just wasn't communicated correctly. There was a breakdown somewhere in that chain that precipitated this event.

And I know that the Secret Service will examine this, or somebody will obviously. The FBI is investigating. Director Cheadle has already said ultimately, it's the Secret Service's responsibility. Anything that happens at our events is our responsibility.

ACOSTA: Yes.

RUSSELL: And they're going to have to deal with that. Questions or whatever might come.

ACOSTA: All right. Well, I wish we had more time to talk about this further, everyone. Thank you so much for your expertise as always, Juliette, Jason, and Darrin. A great conversation. Thanks so much.

Still ahead this hour. Vice President Kamala Harris and Senator J.D. Vance have not spoken yet apparently, but CNN has learned they are trying to connect today. So, how important is a vice-presidential candidate to the ticket? We're going to talk about that next. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:53:02]

ACOSTA: With the vice-presidential race ticket now set, both team Vance and team Harris are working on setting up a call between the current VP and her Republican rival. Kamala Harris left J.D. Vance a voicemail we're told after he was announced as Donald Trump's running mate. So far, they have not spoken.

Let's talk about how important the VP pick is to the ticket. CNN's Harry Enten joins me now. Harry, I mean, there was a time -- I mean, we -- the classic example is JFK and LBJ, the Boston Austin ticket in 1960. But do people really care about who the vice-presidential pick is anymore? And does it matter from an electoral standpoint?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Now. Nobody cares, man. I mean, I'm sure you could --

ACOSTA: All right, thanks for being with us.

ENTEN: People out on the streets who care. See you. See you later, buddy. No, I mean, look. Look at this. This extremely important year 2024 vote.

What are the top issues? You know, protecting democracy is number one. The economy's number two. You have to go all the way down on the list to see Trump's pick for VP and it's in the mid-teens.

So, the fact is, people vote for the top of the ticket. They don't vote for the bottom of the ticket. And I think that these poll results are indicative of it.

Yes, you'll see very excited people here in Milwaukee. But out on the streets, not in a convention hall. And besides political junkies, I'm not sure you're going to find many people were going to oh, J.D. Vance. Now, I'm going to vote for Trump, or oh, J.D. Vance, I'm no longer going to vote for Trump.

ACOSTA: Yes. But I mean, Harry, I remember back in the 2008 campaign after there were questions raised about Sarah Palin that that had some -- maybe some limited effect on John McCain's campaign. And ultimately, he was beaten pretty soundly by Barack Obama. But that was a question that was racist at that time. Any sign that people may dislike a VP pick but still vote for the presidential candidate?

ENTEN: Yes. You know, it's very important to point out -- you know, you mentioned that 2008 example.

ACOSTA: Yes.

ENTEN: And you know that was a campaign in which you actually didn't see a lot of real change in the poll. How about the ultimate one if we can go to slide three here? Remember, Dan Quayle -- remember Dan Quayle?

ACOSTA: Yes.

[11:55:05]

ENTEN: I mean remember --

ACOSTA: Yes.

ENTEN: Remember that campaign? Dan Quayle was the worst VP choice in modern American politics. But you know who won that campaign? George H.W. Bush won that campaign.

ACOSTA: That's right.

ENTEN: He won it overwhelmingly by eight points. If they had just gotten to choose the vice president Lloyd Bentsen, who, of course, was Michael Dukakis's VP pick, would have won that campaign overwhelmingly. But the fact is, again, again, again, people vote for the top of the ticket. They don't vote for the bottom of the ticket. And so, I don't think this J.D. Vance pick will really make much of a difference.

ACOSTA: Yes. Lloyd Bentsen with the "You're no Jack Kennedy" equip perhaps the biggest -- the best one-liner in presidential vice- presidential debate in history. Harry Enten, great to see as always. Thanks so much.

ENTEN: My pleasure.

ACOSTA: All right. Good to see you. And thank you for joining me in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta. Stay with CNN. "INSIDE POLITICS" with Dana Bash starts after a short break. Have a great day.

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