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CNN International: Freed Americans Back On U.S. Soil After Historic Prisoner Swap; Rowe: Secret Service Unaware Of Armed Man Before Shots Fired At Trump; Dow Plunges After Weak July Jobs Report Released; Israeli Military On Alert As Iran & Proxies Vow Retaliation. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired August 02, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:01:15]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: It's 8:00 p.m. in London, 10:00 p.m. in Beirut, 3:00 p.m. here in Washington.

I'm Jim Sciutto. Thanks so much for joining me today on CNN NEWSROOM. And let's get right to the news.

Tears of joy and some bear hugs on the Joint Base Andrews tarmac. Former U.S. Marine Paul Whelan, "Wall Street Journal" reporter, Evan Gershkovich, and Russian-American journalist Alsu Kurmasheva released from Russian prison back on U.S. soil. They're now in San Antonio undergoing medical evaluations, which are typical after spending months and in some cases years behind bars abroad.

And in Germany, prominent Kremlin critic and journalist Vladimir Kara- Murza said his release feels surreal. Kara-Murza recalled the moment the plane left Russia and its conversation with a foreign servicer officer escorting him to freedom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VLADIMIR KARA-MURZA, RELEASED RUSSIAN PRISONER: The moment our plane was taking off, he told me, look out the window, it's the last time you're seeing your motherland and I turn to this guy and I laughed once again and I said, look, I didn't know his name. I didn't know his rank.

Obviously, they didn't feel the need to inform us of all those things. I told him, look, man, I'm a historian by education. I don't only feel, I don't only believe, I know that I'll be back in my home country and that'll be much quicker than you think.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: He says he will go back. That's quite a statement.

We're going to take you behind the scenes of exactly how this sweeping and complicated deal came to be.

CNN's Jennifer Hansler has been many years in touch with Paul Whelan, in particular about his harrowing five plus years in a Russian prison. She joins me now for more in particular, on his return.

Jennifer, those moments on the tarmac yesterday, they were emotional, they were happy. The moments to in the Oval Office as they were first to having those conversations with their loved ones when they were on their way home. Do we have a sense of how they're all doing today?

JENNIFER HANSLER, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT PRODUCER: Well, it seemed like they were in fairly good spirits despite everything they had gone through. We saw them there on the tarmac being reunited with their loved ones last night in those incredibly moving and emotional images, we saw, Paul reunited with his sister Elizabeth, who has been such a big advocate for his case over the past 5-1/2 years, making dozens and dozens of trips to Washington, D.C. to meet with officials.

SCIUTTO: President Biden said, you know, you know the Oval Office because you've been here so many times, yeah.

HANSLER: Yeah, basically lives here, yeah.

And then we saw, of course, Evan Gershkovich reunited with his family, giving his mother this big bear hug where he lifted her up into the air and then also Kurmasheva, a fellow journalist who saw her daughters who are her daughter Miriam turn 13. Just your minutes after she landed on that tarmacs are really emotional. And then from there, Jim, they went on to Texas for this program.

As you mentioned, they're getting medical examinations and they are also going through what's called PISA, which is the Defense Department program to help them reacclimate into their normal lives, regained some sense of autonomy.

SCIUTTO: What does it involve exactly?

HANSLER: It goes up to 19 days. They'll work with specialist, therapist, whoever they need to try to get back into the sense of life after going through such a traumatic experience there in Russian detention.

But by all measures, you know, from the images, it seemed like they were in very high spirits to be back in their homes.

SCIUTTO: Do they get creature comforts? Well, there is joining are they ordering cheeseburgers now,

HANSLER: I have to imagine we saw Whelan there in Texas. He held up a box with an iPad and said the FSB had confiscated his my iPhone and iPad, so he was going to have another one to try to become a normal person again. He also talked about coming back and getting off the plane if you want to take a listen to some of what he said there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL WHELAN, FREED AMERICAN: Getting off the plane and seeing the president, the vice president, that was nice. It was a good homecoming.

[15:05:00]

So looking forward to seeing my family down here and just recuperating from five years, seven months, and five days of just absolute nonsense by the Russian government.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HANSLER: So they are -- they're now in Texas with their families. They flew down with the special presidential envoy, Roger Carstens, who was instrumental in helping them sort of reacclimate. That's -- a key part of his job is helping the families and these returned individuals sort of get back into normal life.

We saw them posing for photos there and that big tarmac. They held up the hostages and detainee flag. So, a real moment of celebration last night, Jim.

SCIUTTO: And we shouldn't underestimate the pain, right, and the suffering and the stress that remains. It's going to be -- the comeback, it's a happy moment, but as you look at someone who's been in prisoner for five years, it's going to take some time.

Jennifer Hansler, thanks so much for staying in touch with him and for your reporting.

Well, emotions are high, not only for those free, but also for the families of loved ones who remain behind in Russia. This morning, President Biden offered a message to the family of Marc Fogel.

He's an American teacher. You see him there, sentenced to 14 years on drug smuggling charges after a small amount of medical marijuana was found in his luggage in Russia in 2021.

Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Marc Fogel, the Pennsylvania teacher still sitting in a Russian prison --

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're not given up -- we're not given up on that.

REPORTER: What more can you do? What more can you do?

BIDEN: Do you want me to tell you ahead of time so he doesn't get out?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HANSLER: Joining me now is Marc Fogel's sister, Anne, who, of course, has been pushing for his release for months now.

Anne, thanks so much for joining us.

ANNE FOGEL, SISTER OF MARC FOGEL: Yes, thank you for having me and it's really important that we keep telling Marc's story. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Yeah, listen, I can, of course, understand you must feel happiness for the families who've got their loved ones home. But, of course, frustration for the fact that your brother is left behind.

How are you feeling today and how's the rest of the family doing today?

FOGEL: (INAUDIBLE) of Evan and Paul and Alsu getting off the plane are absolutely incredible. I'm very, very relieved and happy for them and their families. I just want to be them right now.

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

FOGEL: I want to be in that boat.

SCIUTTO: Well --

FOGEL: It's been very -- it was very difficult thinking that Marc was left behind. It -- he's in Rybinsk, pretty far north, north of Moscow. It's very cold. I -- I am so empathetic for him or, he just feels utterly gutted and he -- he's -- I don't want, you know, I love him.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. No.

FOGEL: He's my brother.

SCIUTTO: It makes absolute sense. You did say yesterday in the wake of this deal that you felt and I'm quoting here, stabbed in the back by the administration for a deal that released these 16 prisoners from Russia, including three Americans, but did not include your brothers.

CNN asked the national security adviser John Kirby today about your brother's case, why he wasn't released in this deal. I want to play what he said and get your reaction. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KIRBY, NATIONAL SECURITY COMMUNICATIONS ADVISER: The Russians just weren't willing to throw him into the mix. And we tried many different times. I mean, from a very, very early stage here when we knew we had to work on a new deal, we included Mr. Fogel. Regrettably, they just -- they just weren't biting at it.

But I will say this, Kate, and I said the same thing after we got Brittney Griner home and we couldn't get Paul home at that time. Every time you do these negotiations, you learned, you gained some knowledge and perspective about what the other side will or won't trade for and where their head space is. And that was the case in this case.

So even though we weren't able to get Mr. Fogel, we learned a lot about the Russian perspective on him and his case and we're going to hopefully be able to apply that in the conversations that we're having right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP) SCIUTTO: So, Anne, as you hear that, what's your reaction that answers is, is it a satisfying answer to you?

FOGEL: You know, it is natural and I want to be very helpful. It's hard to understand how in a historic trade deal, like that hasn't had second since the war, the world war, that that they left him behind. I want to be -- Marc was never designated as wrongfully detained, and I think that that's been part of the problem with this. He's not been prioritized and I think that they would have designated him otherwise.

[15:10:07]

SCIUTTO: Do you know why that was the case? Because I know that Jake Sullivan initially said from the White House podium that he was now your brother being designated as wrongfully detained, but then the State Department as I understand it, pulled that back and I understand there's a legal standard for that, but has the State Department explained to you why he has not been designated as such yet?

FOGEL: We've never received an explanation. They issued a report to Congress in June and frankly, they had a -- they had a lot of the facts wrong about Marc's case to be -- so it was -- it was its been hard to be trusting we met with Jake, saw over of 2022 and the White House and he told us -- he told my sister-in-law and I that he was working to get Marc home and I want that. I want to be respectful and I -- and I -- but it's hard not to be angry.

If Jake Sullivan's brother had been left behind in this situation, he would also be angry. This is -- I have my right to this anger. I -- we need -- I need to have my (AUDIO GAP) --

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

FOGEL: -- but his wife and see my mother.

SCIUTTO: I perfectly understand your emotion. I put myself in your shoes and I'm sure I'd be feeling many of the same things.

Before we go -- has the administration given you any recent update on the status of negotiations or efforts underway? To get to get him home, to get Marc home.

FOGEL: We have not heard from the White House there's nothing that would make us happier than to have a direct conversation with the president. I love the president (AUDIO GAP) my mother and my sister- in-law and reassure (AUDIO GAP) --

SCIUTTO: Well -- Anne, listen, my heart goes out to you and your family. I do hope that you get good news soon about your brother and we do appreciate your joining.

FOGEL: Thank you so much.

SCIUTTO: Well, just moments ago, another story we're following. The acting director of the Secret Service updated reporters on the timeline of events and the security failures leading up to the assassination attempt on Donald Trump just last month in Butler, Pennsylvania. The Acting Director Ronald Rowe said Secret Service, quote, should have had eyes on the roof where the shooter Thomas Crooks fired at the former president, but said neither the counter- sniper teams nor Trump security detail were aware of the shooter's presence.

Still, Roe defended the work of his agents and the ongoing investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RONALD ROWE JR., ACTING SECRET SERVICE DIRECTOR: Every single person within the Secret Service feels the weight of what happened. We are in an unprecedented threat environment and high operational tempo during this presidential campaign. The men and women of the Secret Service are working incredibly hard and doing their jobs under difficult circumstances. They need to focus on their work and they need to know that I have their backs. And that is my commitment to them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: CNN's Whitney Wild has been following the story for us.

Whitney, listening to the acting director there. I mean, one thing he did is very quickly say this was not the fault of local law enforcement. I'm not trying to divert responsibility there. This was a Secret Service failure.

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: That's right.

Jim, he made very clear during that hearing when he put up a visual aid saying this is what those local snipers should have seen. So let me just back up and kind of remind viewers how we got here because the story's been going on well now and its actually pretty technical.

The sniper -- there were three local snipers inside the building where the man who eventually shot former President Trump had climbed up onto. So you have this roof that was not secured and then there were snipers inside. What Ron Rowe showed at the hearing earlier this week was that he believed that the that the local snipers inside that building should have seen Thomas Crooks, that these are the main questions of what those local snipers would have seen.

I mean, he was pretty emphatic about it. I mean, he showed an image of what he believes they should have seen. He said, why didn't they look left? But now he's saying, but all that being said, make no mistake. This say his entirely on the Secret Service.

And, Jim, that's because when they design these site plans, their role does not stop at the inner perimeter inside the mags.

[15:15:02]

I mean, they're responsible for the entire thing. So that was one of the things he sought to make very clear in this press conference today. I'd like to direct your attention to a couple of other things that came out and he reiterated that the Secret Service, neither the details nor the snipers knew that the man on the roof had a firearm until seconds before -- or basically until the shooting started. Why was that? Because there was a problem with communications.

The -- it is very difficult sometimes when you're going site to site to site, to get all of the law enforcement on the same radio on what we know but this site in particular, was that there were a minimum of four agencies. There was the U.S. Secret Service. There were members from Butler County's emergency services unit, Beaver County's emergency services unit, the Pennsylvania State Police. The list is pretty long of law enforcement agencies who were there.

They were not all on the same radio frequency and complicating matters, Jim, was this issue but there were actually duel command posts that that's for lack of a better phrase because there was one unified command post where the local law enforcement was. So they might have heard one another's radios and then there was a secured room. That's where the United States Secret Service was with the Pennsylvania state police.

Something was missed. The radio traffic did not get from potentially that unified command center to where the Secret Service was set up. So this is a major question of why there was allowed to be this, this local unified command post where it appears the Secret Service was not and they instead were only in this room with apparently at just a member of the Pennsylvania state police because what we know is that the radio traffic wasn't getting to the key players here. So that was a major question as well, Jim.

SCIUTTO: No question. Listen, a lot of work still to be done in this investigation clearly.

Whitney Wild, thanks so much.

Just after the break, fears of the U.S. economy could be weakening after July's jobs numbers missed expectations on the downside. We're going to break down the figures and what they all mean, including about interest rates, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Stocks are plunging today following a weak July jobs report here in the U.S.

[15:20:04]

The Dow fell almost 1,000 points at its low point today, this after the U.S. economy added 114,000 jobs last month, that was fewer than expected and off the strong pace we've seen for a number of months and unemployment rate unexpectedly went up to 4.3 percent. There is some fear on Wall Street that the Federal Reserve may not be acting quickly enough to cut rates and help keep America's job market and the economy more broadly in good shape.

CNN's Matt Egan joins us now from the New York bureau.

So, first, tell us about this jobs report and how it factors into the trend over the last several months.

Matt, if you hear me there - just to tell us what the numbers tell you on how this job to job report fits in.

All right. We'll come back to those numbers in a second.

We're going to go to Catherine Rampell to help break down the significance of this. She's CNN political and economics commentator, also a columnist for "The Washington Post".

So this came below expectations. I mean, is it -- is it a blaring red signal or sort of a yellow signal about the state of the U.S. economy?

CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN POLITICAL AND ECONOMICS COMMENTATOR: I would categorize it as a yellow signal. I think it's concerning. It's not in and of itself proof that the economy is crashing or anything like that, 4.3 percent unemployment is actually still historically quite low.

It's heading in the wrong direction.

SCIUTTO: Right.

RAMPELL: So I understand what people are worried. You don't want the numbers to be going up. But it's, you know, it's still not a bad place to be. We just don't want it to get any worse at this point.

SCIUTTO: Okay. So the Fed's focus, of course, and this is its job, get inflation down. It has faced some criticism for overemphasizing inflation and not the job market. And we see, for instance, Senator Elizabeth Warren, who has leveled this criticism for some time at the Fed chairman that you know, that they should have moved more quickly to cut rates. Do you think that's a fair criticism?

RAMPELL: You know, Elizabeth Warren was criticizing the Fed for raising rates at all when they started back in, what was it in March of 2023 and it was definitely appropriate then, in fact, it was probably overdue then. So I would take her comments with a grain of salt.

I do think it is reasonable to worry that the Fed is acting -- is maybe acting too late. They started cutting rates before. They paused for a while because it looked like inflation might be reigniting. Now, it looks like inflation is heading back in the right direction going down while the job market may be softening.

And so, if you look at, for example, what markets were expecting the Fed to do yesterday, the markets based on what traders were trading, treasuries that were expecting about a 20, 22 percent chance that the Fed would cut rates by a full half of a percentage point in September which is a lot. Usually, it's by a quarter of a percentage point.

Today, after today's jobs report, the odds of a big fat rate cut of a half a percentage point went way up to about 70, 75 percent. So that suggests that markets think that the Fed maybe wait a little bit too long. It's going to have to compensate by stimulating the economy even more.

SCIUTTO: Understand. And there's no chance it could act prior to the September meeting. Is there?

RAMPELL: There's a chance. I think its very unlikely and there are sort of this perverse counterintuitive effect that could happen that if, if they jump in before the next meeting and cut rates that might signal that there's more to be worried about that, that might in and of itself sow (ph) panic.

SCIUTTO: Understood, yeah.

RAMPELL: So, they could act faster. But if they do, then if that's so unusual that that in and of itself might freak out markets even --

SCIUTTO: Yeah, it's interesting. Folks are always trying to read the Fed, right, and maybe sometimes over-read.

RAMPELL: Yes.

SCIUTTO: But, Catherine Rampell, thanks so much for walking us through this.

I do believe we have Matt Egan back.

So, Matt, tell us how this latest jobs report, which in any other time certainly wouldn't be catastrophic, 100 -- 114,000 jobs. But it was below expectations and it is below where the quite healthy monthly jobs reports had been for some time.

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: Yeah, that's right, Jim.

I mean, the jobs market is clearly weakened. It's just too soon to know whether or not this is just the growth scare or something more serious. Let's look at the actual numbers here from the jobs report.

We saw that the unemployment rate was expected to be flat. Instead, it went up to 4.3 percent. That is the highest level in almost three years moving in the wrong direction, 114,000 jobs added. That was a big miss.

Let's look at the trend here. You can see that clearly hiring has slowed down, right? As recently as in march, we had 300,000 jobs being added, even in may, were at who hundred thousand now, much closer to 100,000.

[15:25:08]

So still adding jobs, but not enough, given all the supply of workers and that's why we've seen the unemployment rate moved up to 4.3 percent, of course, miles away from the spike to almost 15 percent during COVID, but still moving noticeably higher. Now, we have to stress that just one bad jobs report, that's not

enough to say that a recession is inevitable. I talked to Moody's Analytics chief economist Mark Zandi, and he told me he thinks the odds are still no recession. But he said the risks have gone up and it's going to be a closer call.

Let's take a look at how the markets are responding to all of this. We see that the Dow is down more than 700 points, though I would note earlier, it was down about nine 150 points. The Nasdaq down 2.6 percent. It was down at one point 3 percent. So they have bounced off their lows.

You and Catherine were talking about what the markets are thinking as far as rate cuts and listen just 24 hours ago, the idea of a large rate cut in September was unlikely, 22 percent, but it has jumped up to 69 percent now, that is quite the move in just the past 24 hours. And it does reflect his concern that maybe the Fed is moving too slow, right?

Remember they moved too slow in 2021 to respond to inflation, they waited too long to hike rates and they had to catch up.

Now the question is, have they waited too long to respond to weakness in the market? And Elizabeth Warren, she is saying that Powell should cancel his summer plans and he should actually do what an emergency rate cut. I think one of the problems there is that something that could actually freak out markets even more, right?

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

EGAN: Because that would feel a little bit panicky.

One last point, Jim, let's just keep things into perspective. Yes, it's been a bad day for the market. It's been a bad week, but look at this, the market is still well above where it was a year ago.

So we do have to keep all this into context. Its gotten rockier, but that's because of the risks have gotten larger.

SCIUTTO: Yeah, and listen, job growth for unemployment rate remains historically low at a recession would be two consecutive quarters of negative growth both we're not -- we're not close to negative growth at this point.

EGAN: Yeah. Nowhere near that.

SCIUTTO: So, you have to factor that all into the calculus.

Matt Egan, thanks so much.

EGAN: Thanks, Jim.

SCIUTTO: After the break, Kamala Harris is now officially the Democratic presidential nominee now, she needs a running mate. We're going to have state of that race, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:30:48]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back.

Kamala Harris has now officially won enough votes from Democratic delegates to become the Democratic Party's nominee for president. But who will be her number two on the ballot?

This weekend, a source tells CNN, Vice President Kamala Harris will conduct face-to-face final interviews for that position.

Among her possible picks, Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro, who you see here, giving remarks at Cheyney University earlier today.

Other candidates Harris is expected to meet with, Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg, the Minnesota Governor Tim Walz, Arizona Senator Mark Kelly, Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear, Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker. Her choice is expected to be by Harris's side next week in a jam-packed schedule. The newly announced ticket touring every major swing state, starting off in Pennsylvania, big state, on Tuesday, followed by Wisconsin, Michigan, North Carolina, Georgia, Arizona, and Nevada -- all big states.

Well, on Wednesday, Donald Trump made a contentious appearance to say the least at an event hosted by the National Association of Black Journalists. He went after the panel moderators, repeatedly and falsely question Vice President Harris's race. That is after the Q&A was delayed for more than an hour.

At the time, Trump and his campaign blamed the delay on technical issues, something Trump raised repeatedly during the event.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And then you are half an hour late. Just so we understand, I have too much respect for you to be late, they couldn't get their equipment work in or something was wrong.

For you to start off a question-and-answer period, especially when you're 35 minutes late because you couldn't get your equipment to work in such a hostile manner.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: So a fact check, the NABJ president Ken Lemon told "Axios" that audio problems were not to blame for the delay. In fact, according to Lemon, the Trump team asked, well, can you not fact check? He's not going to take the stage if you fact check.

Trump's team for their part are doubling down on their version of events, saying that they waited close to 40 minutes while audio issues were being fixed.

This all in addition to backlash, Trump is already facing from the Harris campaign and Democrats and others for just amazingly claiming his opponent turn black in recent years.

CNN fact-checked Trump's NABJ appearance and found that Trump made at least eight false statements about Harris, immigration, January 6, and the economy.

When we come back, the Middle East remains on a knife's edge following two high profile assassinations this week. The former prime minister of Israel, Naftali Bennett, joins me to discuss the rising tensions, and what he thinks should come next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back.

Hundreds of mourners gathered in Doha, Qatar, for the funeral and burial of longtime Hamas political leader Ismail Haniyeh. Israel is still yet to confirm or deny any involvement in Haniyeh's assassination in the Iranian capital on Wednesday. His death, along with a series of high profile killings in Lebanon and Gaza have led to vows of retaliation from Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah, pushing the region to the brink of a broader conflict.

Iran's supreme leader says he considers it Iran's duty to avenge Haniyeh's death. Hezbollah's chief suggested a coordinated attack on Israel could be coming soon. The U.S. says it is ready to move resources to the region to counter that threat.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIRBY: We've heard the supreme leader loud and clear that he intends to avenge this killing of a Hamas leader in Tehran. And that they want to conduct another attack on Israel. We can't just assume that we aren't also so potentially going to be victims of that kind of an attack. So we got to make sure we've got the right resources and capabilities in the region.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: CNN senior international correspondent Ben Wedeman is in Lebanon, right in the middle of it.

Ben, as you sit there and I know you speak to your sources around the region and in Lebanon, are they expecting a broader war in the region right now? Do they see it as inevitable?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I think people think that there is definitely going to be a response from Iran, from Hezbollah to this series of assassinations. But the hope is, and I think also many people believed that perhaps a full blown war can be avoided. There's really no appetite for any sort of regional war. There is a feeling that perhaps Israel has pushed the envelope, for instance, particularly in the case of, of course, we believe Israel did it, killing Ismail Haniyeh in Tehran.

You'll recall back on the 1st of April, Israel struck the Syrian, rather the Iranian diplomatic compound in Damascus, which Iran called a violation of its national sovereignty. And they respond about two weeks later with more than 300 missiles and drones on Israel.

Now, the fact that Ismail Haniyeh was killed in the heart of Tehran certainly is a violation of Iran's sovereignty and therefore, there will be some sort of response. But Iran, with all its economic trouble and social unrest perhaps doesn't have the ability, the appetite or the desire for a full scale war in Israel.

And the same applies really to Hezbollah, the Lebanese economy is in shambles. We saw a report today hotel reservations are at an all-time high as a result of the tensions and therefore, certainly, Lebanon can't really afford also given that more than 100,000 Lebanese have had to flee their homes along the border.

At this point, the country cannot afford to have anything, for instance, like a repeat of the 2006 war with Israel.

[15:40:06]

So even though tensions are high, the hope is that a regional war can be avoided, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Haniyeh was deeply involved in the ceasefire talks, indirect talks between Hamas and Israel. He's now dead.

Are there any active negotiations underway for a ceasefire and hostage deal to our knowledge?

WEDEMAN: Well, I'm seeing the ports that the Prime Minister Netanyahu is considering sending a delegation to Cairo to perhaps restart those negotiations. So perhaps on him his side, perhaps under pressure from the United States, he will try to resume those talks. Now, whether there's appetite on the other side after Hamas's chief negotiator was killed, presumably by Israel, is a good question.

We know that Qataris were very unhappy with the fact that the chief negotiating negotiator was killed, Ismail Haniyeh, and therefore, it may be difficult to restart them at this time, although obviously, given that this war is now 301 days old, much of Gaza is in ruins, more than almost 40,000 people there have been killed, there is pressure also on that side to reach some sort of ceasefire and perhaps release of hostages.

Now, Haniyeh, despite what some people say, was a relative moderate in Hamas, certainly compared to Yahya Sinwar, the leader of Hamas in Gaza and eliminating him certainly doesn't help pushing that negotiating process forward -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Ben Wedeman in Beirut, thanks so much.

For more on how Israel is responding its interests in this, former Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett joins me now, live.

Mr. Prime Minister, thanks so much for joining.

NAFTALI BENNETT, FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: Thank you for having me. SCIUTTO: You heard our correspondent there describe something that

I've heard repeatedly and I've heard it from U.S. officials as well, and that is even with all the tensions that the major players actually don't have an appetite for a larger war, including Hezbollah, Iran, perhaps even Israel.

But as you see this series of decapitation strikes by Israel, if you look in the last several weeks in Syria, Lebanon, it is believed in Iran, though I know Israel has not confirmed that, is Israel seeking a confrontation with Iran now? Does it see it necessity for such a confrontation?

BENNETT: Well, it's not. It's very convenient for our enemies to butcher 1,200 Israelis and babies and the rape women and the last week killed 12 boys and girls that were playing soccer, and then when we hit back to say, oh, we don't want a regional conflict, let's keep this in bay.

It doesn't work that way. When you're a murderous jihadist regime, that's bent on destroying Israel, you can choose when to turn on the pause button.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this then, as you know, the U.S. administration, the Biden administration, President Biden has repeatedly urged the Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu to reduce tensions, right? The U.S. is clearly concerned about an escalation and yet there have been what -- and listen, I'm not -- I'm not assigning blame here for going after terrorists leaders. I'm saying these are actions that are then leading to reactions and then there's reactions and retaliation.

Is Israel in your view, deliberately defying U.S. pressure to try to calm things down?

BENNETT: No, absolutely not. We're working in close coordination with the United States of America, but I think there's also an agreement on the goals of the war. I believe America stands behind Israel's goals of war, which are to defeat Hamas and remove this threat on the state of Israel and onto region, and to release the hostages.

We cannot afford to finish this conflict while having the very people that butchered and raped our people, our women and children and men on our borders alive and kicking.

SCIUTTO: Benny Gantz who you know well and, of course, was a member of the war cabinet, he has said that Netanyahu is placing his own political interests above the national interests of Israel, saying quote: Fateful strategic decisions are met with hesitation and procrastination due to political considerations.

I've spoken to hostage families as well, Israeli hostage families who believed the same, that Netanyahu is putting his own interests above the interests of the lives of their loved ones.

[15:45:08]

Do you agree with that criticism?

BENNETT: Well, I think the government of Israel was very slow on prosecuting this war. I think it took way, way too long in order to defeat Hamas and get the job done. This is not an impossible objective. Israel knows how to do this sort of thing. And I think the quicker and swifter we act, the better the chances of getting those hostages home, and defeating Hamas.

SCIUTTO: Are ceasefire negotiations and hostage release negotiations still credibly underway and in particular, does killing the lead negotiator -- he's now dead and I know Israel has not commented on who was behind this attack, but would his being killed help or hinder such negotiations given that he was central to them?

BENNETT: You know, I hear again and again, people talking about Ismail Haniyeh as the moderate, the negotiator. This guy is not Nelson Mandela. He's Osama bin Laden. He's the Palestinian Osama bin Laden. He has been murdering people in the region for decades, mastermind of Hamas. He celebrated the big massacre of October 7. He was almost dancing.

So I would not categorize them as moderate correct negotiator. He's a vicious murderer and, you know, I'm happy he's gone. As you said, we don't know or Israel certainly has not taken responsibility. But the world is a better place without this Palestinian Osama bin Laden.

SCIUTTO: I'm not defending him or his comments? But what I'm asking is, can Israeli Israel credibly continue negotiations when -- if you believe the speculation, when it has killed one of the lead negotiators.

BENNETT: There are many negotiators within Hamas. Hamas does not depend on Ismail Haniyeh for that.

Ismail Haniyeh should have thought, well, before sending thousands of terrorists into Israeli towns, kibbutzim, cities in murdering out of the blue, out of nowhere on just going and murdering so many Israelis. And there's a price to be paid and he's paying the price.

SCIUTTO: As you know, President Biden has urged the Israeli leader, Israeli forces to take greater care to prevent civilian casualties in Gaza. Do you believe Israel has done enough to prevent civilian casualties?

BENNETT: Absolutely. We have one of the lowest ratios of combatants or terrorists versus civilians. Look, here, there's a very fundamental point to keep in mind. It's the modus operandi of Hamas is to embed itself with the citizens. And in fact, it supported by mass citizens of Gaza, and therefore, their modus operandi is causing their own death.

So its essentially, Hamas, which is bringing the death upon its own people. We're bending over backward to reduce it as much as possible with pointed attacks, and I think the latest results show that.

SCIUTTO: But let me ask you this and I am not defending what is a very real strategy by Hamas and other groups like Hezbollah to deliberately live in populated areas for exactly the reasons you're talking about.

But there were decisions that Israel makes, including, and this is another one that the president has conveyed to the prime minister the choice of munitions, for instance. So 2,000-pound bomb that, listen, you know, the blast radius of these weapons and you know that the expectation of civilian casualties other than its target are very real.

Is Israel using enough caution is my question. I'm not assigning all the blame to Israel. I'm just saying is Israel using enough caution to avoid what has been a bloody, bloody death toll for Palestinian civilians.

BENNETT: Yeah, absolutely. We have a very rigid process for that. However, if we prevent ourselves from hunting down the terrorists because they embed themselves within civilians, that means that every terror organization on earth will adopt this methodology. So we cannot allow this method of embedding yourselves within civilians to prevail.

[15:50:00]

SCIUTTO: Before we go, you have voiced your discontent with the current Israeli leadership. Are you planning to return to Israeli politics and run for leadership perhaps?

BENNETT: Israel definitely needs big change. This is a huge catastrophe, a result of many things including a problem in leadership. If and when I returned, I'll be sure to let you know first.

SCIUTTO: Okay. Well, we'll have you on when you do make that decision.

Naftali Bennett, thanks so much for joining this afternoon.

BENNETT: You take care. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Just after the break, hugs that were years in the making, more of the emotional scenes from the historic prisoner swap between the U.S. and Russia.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. The families of the prisoners freed from Russia had been working and waiting patiently for years in some cases in hopes of seeing their loved ones may get home safely. Yesterday, those hopes and dreams became a reality, finally.

Let's hear from the families on how they did not lose hope.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(CHEERING)

(APPLAUSE)

ELIZABETH WHELAN, PAUL WHELAN'S SISTER: These are foreign countries trying to coerce the United States. But there also our family members, our loved ones, you know, we hear their voices. But we can't -- we can't see them and touch them.

Every time he goes -- he disappears like that. We wonder what's happened. I mean, occasionally, he has been put in solitary, moved to different places. We never quite know what's going on.

DAVID WHELAN, PAUL WHELAN'S BROTHER: It's a pretty rough life and it's not something that I would wish on anybody. I think of it as surviving, not living, and I hope that it's not too long before the Biden administration or some White House can bring Paul home so that he can start living again.

(CHEERING)

(APPLAUSE)

[15:55:01]

JEREMY BERKE, EVAN GERSHKOVICH'S FRIEND: I think Evan is coping with this through sheer force of will. He's doing the best he can to stay both connected with us and connected to himself while he undergoes this process. I mean, it's scary and troubling and difficult.

He's reaching out to us and he's funny as ever in his letters and he's trying to keep us and keep our spirits up and keep us engaged through the process. So that's a testament to who he is as a person.

DANIELLE GERSHKOVICH, EVAN GERSHKOVICH'S SISTER: I'm going to be moving and he wanted to know is there a good size guest bedroom for him. So we really can't wait for him to come home and spend time together. And I need to get the guest bedroom running for him.

ELLA MILMAN, EVAN GERSHKOVICH'S MOTHER: It's really, really important to stay optimistic we have to stay strong for Evan. It's -- it's hard not -- not to have a fantasy about the day that he does come home.

UNIDENTFIIED FEMALE: Be optimistic. Believe in happy, happy ending. That's where we stand right now. But I am not stupid. I understand what's involved. But that's what I choose to believe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Those are the words of the family members before they received the great news yesterday that their family was coming home and those fantastic moments of their reunions.

Thanks so much for joining me today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.