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Israel, Hezbollah Pull Back After Intense Cross-Border Fire; Trump Assassination Attempt Task Force Visits Shooting Site; Campaigns Fighting Over Whether To Mute Mics At Next Debate; Ukraine: Russia Launched Its "Most Massive Air Attack" Of War; New Taliban Law Bans Women's Voices And Bare Faces In Public. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired August 26, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:37]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: It is 8:00 p.m. in London, 9:00 p.m. in Kyiv, 10:00 p.m. here in Tel Aviv. I'm Jim Sciutto. Thanks so much for joining me today on CNN NEWSROOM, and let's get right to the news.

After a month of heightened tensions, Israel and Hezbollah appear to have stepped back from the brink. Both sides claimed success after a barrage of cross-border fire over the weekend. Israel launched what it called preemptive strike, saying it destroyed thousands of rocket launcher barrels in southern Lebanon just minutes before has below was set to fire them as blow still managed to launch hundreds of rockets and drones towards Israel. What it later called the first stage of retaliation for the assassination of a top Hezbollah commander by Israel last month.

Remarkably, the attacks did not scuttle the Gaza ceasefire negotiations which a U.S. official familiar with the talks tells me, have made progress and are now centered on final details and nuts and bolts issues, though. Some questions remain new Israeli evacuation orders in Gaza forced the U.N. to suspend aid deliveries on Monday due to security risks.

CNN's Jeremy Diamond is in Haifa in northern Israel.

Jeremy, I wonder when you speak to Israeli officials, do they believe the temperature has been lowered somewhat?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: They do, Jim, but there are qualifying that quite significantly by saying that it really is just for now, just for the short term. And that's because beyond Hezbollah, of course, there is still this threat of Iranian retaliation aimed at Israel over the killing of Ismail Haniyeh, Hamas's political leader while he was does in Tehran.

But for now at least, both Israel and Hezbollah seem to be more eager for de-escalation rather than continuing to climb up that ladder of escalation as we have been watching over the course of the last few weeks. And it's quite remarkable yesterday how quickly that attack started and how quickly we then headed for de-escalation. It was just a matter of a few hours that we saw those Israeli strikes in southern Lebanon carried out by a force of about 100 Israeli fighter jets striking -- striking dozens of Hezbollah rocket launcher sites and then those hundreds of Hezbollah rockets and drones, all of which appear to have not hit their targets, at least according to Israeli officials who say that all those drones were intercepted, none of the rockets hit military bases in central or northern Israel.

And what we have seen emerge here is both sides basically trying to claim victory, both sides claiming short-term victories, at least here. Hassan Nasrallah, Hezbollah's head yesterday, saying that it -- Hezbollah carried out the first phase of its retaliatory strikes, he claimed that they had been successful.

Israel for its part touted that preemptive strike for thwarting what they said would have been a much larger attack as well as of course that successful air defense operation for now, at least the temperature in the region is lowered. But how long that actually lasts remains to be seen.

SCIUTTO: So the CIA Director Bill Burns has left the region after these negotiations, as I was saying, a short time ago, a U.S. official familiar with the talks says that those negotiators and mediators are making progress is the view among Israeli officials that things are moving forward. Listen, I don't think anyone is quite as optimistic as U.S. officials are right now. That is where we have been hearing the most cause for optimism over the course of the last week or so at times.

I must say it does feel like the Americans are leaning a little bit further into this, than their other counterparts. But there's no question that what is key here is the fact that they are still talking. In particular amid that Hezbollah attack yesterday, amid the Israeli strikes in Lebanon hours later, the mediators, the Israeli officials, Hamas officials, were all in Cairo working through the details of this potential agreement.

Now, in terms of those reports of progress, as you said, but U.S. officials are saying that there is progress that has been made, that they are working on the details of this agreement, but we still don't know exactly what that progress has been, and we also know that there doesn't seem to it has been a resolution to some of the key sticking points, like the identities of the Palestinian prisoners who would be released, like he has really Israeli official saying that they must maintain control of that Philadelphi corridor.

[15:05:09]

And so, it is difficult to assess that progress right now and to know how close or how far we really are from potential agreement here -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: It seems a resolution of the Philadelphi corridor issue will be something along the lines of Israeli forces removing themselves from populated areas and leaving perhaps some presence in unpopulated areas. But of course, the devil is the details with negotiations like this, and it boasts sides have different definitions of what's populated and unpopulated.

Jeremy Diamond in Haifa, thanks so much.

The Pentagon on Monday did not put a timeline or an end date on keeping not one, but two U.S. carrier strike groups in the Middle East amid tensions in the region, ongoing threat from Hezbollah and Iran. That U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin decided over the weekend to keep the U.S. as Theodore Roosevelt carrier strike group in the Middle East, along with the USS Abraham Lincoln carrier strike group.

CNN's Jennifer Hansler, she's been covering diplomatic developments from the State Department.

Jennifer, that presence is part of the U.S. response here, deterrent in part, also providing intelligence support and air defense support to Israel. How is the U.S. now balancing that military support with its efforts to reach a ceasefire and hostage deal?

JENNIFER HANSLER, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT REPORTER: Well, Jim, the U.S. sees it as complementary efforts. We just heard from the National Security Council's John Kirby, that they are keeping this robust presence as he called it, as a way to ensure that there are no further flare-ups that could derail these talks. He said, it is the U.S. view that Iran remains posture to and prepared for a potential retaliatory attack if they choose to.

Right now, we don't see any indications that Tehran is necessarily looking to cause a regional war. And there has been a number of diplomatic exchanges through third parties to try to keep that from happening. But the U.S. is keeping this robust military presence there to show that they are ready to defend Israel should that become necessary?

Now at the same time, this is happening. We have these working level talks continuing in Cairo. Kirby said they are expected to continue over the coming days and that they are continuing to seem constructive. Now, as we heard from Jeremy, oftentimes we have where the U.S. go a little bit further in terms of their optimism. He is saying that it has gotten to the point though -- Kirby is saying they've gotten to the point that they make sense to go into the nitty- gritty details like you and I have reported out on the Philadelphi corridor, on the number of hostages exchanged for prisoners in each phase, in each week of that first phase.

So they are down to the nitty-gritty according to the U.S. But we have also been here before. We heard just a few weeks ago, a senior administration official saying that they hope to bring this to an end last week, that clearly it did not happen. So a lot rides on these working level talks as they try to get to this implementation phase and get this deal across the finish line here, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Jennifer Hansler at the State Department, thanks so much.

Moscow is now responding to Ukraine's military incursion that has pushed deeper and deeper into Russian territory. Ukraine says the Kremlin launched its most massive air attack since the war began. It's remarkable, firing off hundreds of missiles and drones and more than a dozen regions overnight, this included the capital Kyiv. CNN's Salma Abdelaziz has more on the attacks blamed now for killing at least five people and injuring at least 30.

We'll come back to Salma Abdelaziz later.

Another story we're following, the Telegram messaging app platform says that its CEO has, quote, nothing to hide. Pavel Durov was detained at an airport outside Paris Saturday on a French arrest warrant. CNN's French affiliate reports that the warrant alleges a lack of moderation has led Telegram to become a platform for criminal activities by users. Durov is a 39-year-old French and Russian citizen.

Well, back in the U.S., the congressional task force investigating the Trump assassination attempt is touring the site of the shooting right now. What they hope to accomplish with the visit and with the probe. We'll have more coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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SCIUTTO: Welcome back.

A bipartisan congressional task force is in Butler, Pennsylvania, today on the scene of the assassination attempt on former President Donald Trump. They are not too long ago, were not too long ago on the very same roof where the shooter fired his bullet, you'll remember, coming within inches of taking Trump's life. They killed, those shots, a rally attendee, Corey Comperatore. These lawmakers have just a few months to investigate and file a report on the law enforcement and security failures that led to that moment.

Danny Freeman is there for us.

Danny, tell us about this visit and what they're hoping to learn from the scene there in Butler, Pennsylvania.

DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sure, Jim. While we're talking about six weeks after that shooting, an attempted assassination attempt on former President Donald Trump, it's a little less than a dozen lawmakers here who have arrived at the grounds of the Butler farm show as you said and as I believe we have video of that, they actually not just went to the area where former President Trump was speaking. They also he went on top of the roof where the shooter, Thomas Matthew Crooks opened fire.

We're actually about to hear from a number of those lawmakers as they're just wrapping up their tour and about to address the press probably in the next five minutes or so. But let me tell you what exactly they're hoping to find. Like you said, this is a bipartisan group of lawmakers. They make up the official task force here on behalf of Congress.

And I should note, this is one of many investigations that we should say that are currently being conducted into what exactly happened back here on July 13.

But this particular group, their goal is to fact fine on the ground with Congressman Jason Crow from Colorado, a Democrat, saying that there really is no substitute for being on site where it all happened. That's why they're out here. They're speaking with Pennsylvania state police and other local law enforcement officers as well to get their perspective of what was happening on the ground specifically leading up to the moment of that shooting.

Now, meanwhile, this comes as we've been learning a lot really troubling details about some of the planning that went into the day of the rally locally and specifically from Secret Service, we learned late last week our team from CNN reporting that there were actually radios that local law enforcement had left out for Secret Service to use and Secret Service never came to collect them. And, of course, we've been talking so much about the importance of communication at that rally on the lack thereof that may have contributed to this shooting incident.

The other thing that we learned, Jim, over the past 72 hours is that multiple Secret Service personnel from the Pittsburgh office about an hour south of where we are here in Butler, and one member of the Trumps security detail, they have I've been assigned to administrative duty in the wake of this shooting. But again, what were looking at here specifically with this congressional task force and this site survey, if you will, they're taking one step to really put a clear picture and a clear description as to what happened and what went wrong and to try and prevent a gym from happening again -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: We should note, it's a bipartisan delegation there and there's been quite broad bipartisan criticism of the security failures that day.

Danny Freeman in Butler, thanks so much.

So, in two weeks, Vice President Kamala Harris and former President Donald Trump have agreed to take the stage and debate September 10, hosted by ABC News, despite some questions based on Trump posts over the weekend. The terms, however, are still being negotiated and like so many things in this race, it's getting messy.

At the center of the feud is whether to mute or not mute the microphones when it is not a candidate's turn to speak. Harris's campaign says, do not mute a challenge for Trump, in their words quote, to act presidential for 90 minutes. Team Trump says the rules should not change from the deal struck with Biden though Trump himself today contradicted his own campaign.

Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're thinking about it. We're thinking about it. They also want to change the rules. You know, the deal was we keep the same rules. Now, all of a sudden, they want to make the change in the rules. We agreed do the same rules. I don't know, it doesn't matter to me.

I'd rather have it probably on, but the agreement was that it would be the same as it was last time. In that case, it was needed. I didn't like it the last time, but it worked out I fine. I mean, ask Biden how it worked out. It was fine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Let's bring in our panel now.

Laura Barron-Lopez of "PBS NewsHour" and Jackie Kucinich of "The Boston Globe".

I mean, I can't think of something more ridiculous to be debating in this campaign right now, given all the issues and all the differences between these candidates on so much, then whether to mic or not to mic.

But there is some method behind this madness is there not, Laura, in that it appears that Trumps own team, his own campaign, believes muting the mic is to his advantage, seemed to have made him seem more presidential in the Biden debate. And Harris seems to think that un- muting him is to their advantage. Is that -- is that the right impression of this?

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yeah, that is the right impression, Jim. I mean, we've seen in focus groups after not just the last Trump-Biden debate, but also their debates in 2020, that Trumps its ability to veer off message him, making strange comments, him lobbying personal attacks, all are bad for him when it comes to voters' perceptions of him. And in focus groups, after all of those debates, be the ones in 2020 or the one that happened earlier this year, voters didn't like it when they started hearing Trump just personally attack Biden or go after him.

And so, Kamala Harris's campaign thinks that the more that voters hear from Trump and all of who he is, that it could be beneficial to them.

SCIUTTO: Jackie, there was some speculation over the last 24 hours as Trump was attacking ABC News, accusing it of bias, that Trump was laying the groundwork to withdraw from the debate altogether. Are we certain that he's going to show up for the September 10 debate?

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think we've all learned not to predict what former President Trump is going to do. Because I mean, he might not even know at this point. But we have a long record of, you know, attacking the network attacking the anchors before a debate and showing up this way, he kind of work the refs you make yourself look like you might -- you might not get a fair shake before you even walk into the studio.

So I'm perhaps maybe that is what is at play here. But the fact that he undermined his staff is also, I think to work for President Trump is to realize you're going to be undermined at some point to -- so I really -- it really is hard to say but right now, they're making like they're going to be there. And that's locked to go with that until changes.

SCIUTTO: Exactly. Well, the Harris campaign that Laura is leaning into this fight, they just uploaded this video to Truth Social, of course, that's Trumps social media platform mocking Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOST: Why not debate her?

TRUMP: We'll wait, but because they already know everything. They say, oh, Trump's, you know, not doing the debate. That's same thing now. I mean, right now I say, why should I do a debate? I'm leading in the polls.

SCIUTTO: They certainly see some advantage. It seems in mocking the questions and the back-and-forth, not just about the rules, but about him. The possibility of him not showing up.

BARRON-LOPEZ: They do, Jim. I mean, we've seen time and time again this Harris campaign versus the Biden campaign be just a bit more aggressive, be more willing to essentially troll Donald Trump, and to try to provoke him because, as Jackie was pointing out, you know, there was a lot of history to Donald Trump veering off, messaged him undermining his own campaign to him, been easily provoked.

[15:20:16]

And the Harris campaign is trying to provoke him with that video.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. Trump, Jackie Kucinich, she went to Arlington National Cemetery today to pay respect to the 13 American soldiers killed at Abbey Gate at the Kabul airport three years ago in the midst of the Afghanistan withdrawal. That withdrawal, certainly a difficult moment for Biden in a number of ways, widely criticized, hurt him in the polls.

Is it clear whether voters see Harris as part of and therefore sharing responsibility for the Afghanistan withdrawal?

KUCINICH: The Trump campaign is certainly trying to tie her to it, but I don't -- I think it's a bit too soon to see -- to -- if voters associate her with that particular decision, which as you note, was particularly a tough moment for the Biden campaign.

But they've also been on the attack against Trump. I mean, throughout the DNC, you had some of the things that he has said about veterans being thrown at him and that has been a constant drumbeat within the Harris-Walz campaign. So perhaps it's all so Trump trying to mitigate a little bit of that damage that might have been done based on some of the things that he's reportedly said and has said on camera about veterans and about the fallen.

SCIUTTO: At the same time, as Trump is trying to contrast his own foreign policy views and decisions, his former national security adviser, retired U.S. Army Lieutenant General H.R. McMaster, he wrote the following in his memoir, this from our colleague Peter Bergen's analysis of the upcoming book, I'm going to quote this here. McMaster describes meetings in the Oval Office as exercises in competitive sycophancy during which Trump's advisers would flatter the president by saying stuff like your instincts are always right or no one has ever been treated so badly by the press.

Meanwhile, Trump would say outlandish things like, why don't we just bomb the drugs in Mexico, or why don't we take out the whole North Korean army during one of their parades?

I wonder, Laura Barron Lopez, this is quite a public commentary from someone very close to the former president who served him in a very high level during the last administration. Do these criticisms, particularly when you take them together with other quite public criticisms from former Chief of Staff John Kelly, Mark Esper, former defense secretary, James Mattis, former defense secretary, John Bolton, former national security adviser, is this damaging him? Is there evidence that this damages him with his voters?

BARRON-LOPEZ: With his voters? No, with the Republican base, no.

But with those Nikki Haley voters, primary voters with those Republicans who are, who were turned off in 2022 to Donald Trump, his temperament, his character, here, his former administration officials say these things about him. They hear Stephanie Grisham at the Democratic National Convention, say that he referred to his own supporters, as, you know, basement dwellers and things like that I think do have a cumulative effect, Jim.

And that's the type of thing that you're going to be seeing the Harris campaign play over and over and over again and potentially try to get some endorsements from these former national security and defense secretary, officials under Trump.

SCIUTTO: And, of course, they did have Republicans stand on the stage at the DNC, Adam Kinzinger, Geoff Duncan, and others share quite public criticism of Trump -- Trump, and support for Harris.

So, we have had too unusual endorsements for Trump in the last 72 hours or so, of course, RFK Jr.'s endorsement on Friday. Now, former Democratic Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard.

Jackie, is it clear from the polling as we have it, whether these endorsements, and particularly RFK dropping out of the race matter significantly?

KUCINICH: In a race that is so on the margins, it's not impossible to think that somewhere this could matter. The interesting thing about RFK in particular is that a lot of Trump voters who are that we spoke to former Trump voters, said that they liked RFK Jr. because of what he said about vaccine mandates and they were angry with Trump because of the vaccines and the mandates that happened at the beginning of COVID. You saw Ron DeSantis try to take advantage of that during the primary.

So whether those voters decide to come back or they just decide to not vote, or perhaps vote for Jill Stein or someone else on the ballot, that remains to be seen.

[15:25:09]

But certainly, the confluence of various parts of the political fringe going around Donald Trump certainly providing fodder for Democrats who are using some of the things that they're not -- particularly against RFK, the knocks against him now, against Trump campaign.

SCIUTTO: And, listen, I mean, the contradictions between RFK Jr. and Trump are pretty remarkable given RFK Jr. is a vaccine doubter. Trump himself took the vaccine claim credit for the warp speed vaccine campaign. And yet those things would be forgotten between them.

Laura Barron-Lopez, Jackie Kucinich, thanks so much to both of you.

Coming up next, we're going to dive into what life is like in Afghanistan now, three years after the U.S. withdrawal with former Vice President of Afghanistan's national assembly joining us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:30:03]

SCIUTTO: Russia is now striking back in response to Ukraine's ongoing military incursion that's pushing deeper and deeper into Russian territory. According to the Ukraine, Russian forces launched its -- their most massive air attack since the war began, firing off hundreds of missiles and drones at more than a dozen regions overnight, including the capital Kyiv.

CNN's Fred Pleitgen has more on the attacks which Ukrainian authorities blamed for killing, at least seven people, injuring at least 30.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): A close call for these Ukrainian soldiers, filming a missile impacting in a reservoir close by. Part of the massive Russian rocket and drone blitz destroying Ukrainian energy infrastructure and leaving residents scrambling for safety, some inside the Kyiv subway.

These people singing who else will stand up for our freedom today, if not you, if not me.

Kyiv says Russia launched more than 120 missiles and more than 100 drones, while many were intercepted others struck areas across Ukraine.

Putin sticks to his style, Ukraine's president says. He's a sick creature, that's been obvious for a long time. But it's also clear that he can only do what the world allows him to do, weakness, lack of decisions, fuel terror.

The strikes, possible retaliation for Ukraine's incursion into the Kursk region in Russia, and Vladimir Putin's army still appears unable to stop Ukrainian troops advancing there, Kyiv saying their forces are making gains even three weeks into the operation.

And another possible blow for the Russian leader after Putin visited Azerbaijan last week, the founder of the Telegram messaging app, Pavel Durov, was arrested in France, revealing Durov was in Azerbaijan at the same time as Putin.

The Kremlin quick to claim Putin didn't meet with Durov in Baku.

DMITRY PESKOV, KREMLIN SPOKESMAN (through translator): We don't know yet what exactly Durov is accused of. We haven't heard any official statements on this matter yet. And before we say anything, we need to wait for the situation to become clearer, what exactly are they trying to incriminate Durov with.

PLEITGEN: French media reports Durov's arrest warrant is related to Telegram's alleged failure to moderate content, reportedly facilitating money laundering, drug trafficking, and the spread of pedophilic material on the platform.

Telegram says Durov has nothing to hide.

There have been questions about Pavel Durov's possible relations with the Kremlin, on Moscow streets, support for the Russian social media mogul.

It's connected to the fact that the man sticks to his principles, this man says, and his main prison simple is freedom of speech.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Our thanks to Fred Pleitgen for that story.

Another story we're following closely, over the -- three years ago today, a suicide bomb detonated just outside Kabul airport. This during America's withdrawal from Afghanistan. The blast at Abbey Gate killed 13 U.S. service members and some 170 Afghans who are gathering there, desperate to flee Taliban rule.

Since the U.S.'s chaotic exit, the Taliban, of course, took over and a sense, continue to restrict a whole host of freedoms, including women's rights. And its first formal declaration of vice and virtue laws since regaining power in 2021, the Taliban now forbids women from showing their faces or even speaking in public. For 1,074 days, the Taliban have restricted girls from the classroom as well.

Fawzia Koofi was the first female deputy speaker of the Afghan parliament and was involved in the intra-Afghan peace talks. She joins me now.

Thanks so much for joining us.

FAWZIA KOOFI, FORMER DEPUTY SPEAKER OF AFGHAN PARLIAMENT: Thank you for having me, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Help us understand these -- just draconian rules. Article 13 of this new law, which relates to restrictions on women, says that a woman's voice is deemed intimate, and so should not be heard singing, reciting, or reading aloud in public.

I want to ask you, as an Afghan woman who served in government there, what is your reaction to these new laws?

KOOFI: Just before the Taliban come to power, Afghanistan was handed over to the Taliban in August 2021. The Taliban were portraited as Taliban 2.0, moderate view.

[15:35:05]

And on that basis, we actually engaged with Taliban. I personally engaged with them starting from dialogue to all the way to official formal negotiation, sitting across the table to talk a peaceful settlement for Afghanistan with the hope that the image that was created for them the moderate image is true, that they have changed because their own daughters, their own children actually study end outside of France in the modern universities in the prestigious universities in schools. So I was hoping that that exposure have changed them and have made them Taliban 2.0 as its portrayed it.

But since they came to power, they have constantly targeted woman. And the last law by the ministry of vice and virtue immediately being ratified by the Taliban leader, you know, not only putting draconian measures on one woman that already are banned from work from schooling, from public life, from going to any public space, including parks, gyms being outside without male company and a ban for women already.

Adding to that, they now had a new law, not only restricting woman, but also maid (ph), which in a country that is suffering from poverty, I do know what is the Taliban's priorities? How do they really in 21st century, one has to understand their mentality on what base they actually launch a complete war against women.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. On August 14th, 2021, millions of Afghan girls were in school. More than a quarter of the members of parliament were women. And in my time in Afghanistan, and since then it struck me that restrictions on girls in schools, banning girls from schools are one of the least popular changes brought by Taliban rule.

How is the Afghan population reacting to this?

KOOFI: Well, the people have upon us and field themselves in as they are in an open present man and woman. They are facing extreme kind of suppressive measure. If the woman protests as they have been protesting bravely in the streets of Kabul, maybe small in number, but that is an indication of that small number do not care about their life and death because they don't have anything to lose, men as well. They resist in their own way by writing, by your taking some harder choices to join military resistance, but also other form of resistance. They resisting their own way.

But we must not forget that Taliban are very, very brutal sometimes they can be really under -- there is extrajudiciary killing, arbitrary detention, all the presence of Afghanistan are full of people who actually speak up against Taliban. So, in that situation, they -- the public reaction is obviously

suppressed. I am also not very happy about the fact that we do not have massive protest of male in solidarity with woman. When I was in the parliament, Jim, I -- every Thursday, I was meeting people. At least 200 to 400 men would come to my office every Thursday asking something for their family, for their girls, for their community.

I did a school or a hospital or a job for their daughters or sisters. Now the question is, where are those people? You know, how come in a matter of a few weeks, everything disappeared, and Afghanistan went to zero location to scratch. We have taken so many of our rights for granted, not knowing that everything will go back to zero location.

I remember in 2021 when first in 2001, when first-time Americans went to Afghanistan in October. Yeah, many people probably call that war as invasion, but for many people in Afghanistan, it was truly as the Americans called, called it Operation Enduring Freedom. I was working in Kabul with still with burqa because it was just right after the Taliban government was collapsed. I could see the sense of happiness, and optimism among the people.

So honestly, in this case, I think people even prefer that foreign force over the so-called Taliban who claimed to be a nationalistic force. People prefer that foreign force because that brings them -- that bring them freedom. You can imagine, you know, how people don't like Taliban, but they don't have option.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this. Are you surprised given these draconian rules and laws all the changes that Taliban has made that the West, including the U.S. has not imposed more restrictions on the Taliban in response to this?

KOOFI: I'm a firm believer that, you know political pressure on Taliban would respond because that political pressure has never been exerted onto Taliban.

[15:40:05]

The worst at some point was fighting with Taliban and all of a sudden in 2018, they have started negotiation and all of a sudden, they became friends with Taliban, led to signing the Doha agreement with Taliban in February 2020. So from a war to friendship, nothing in in- between, I believe pressure will work.

But unfortunately, the international community has taken an approach. First of all, there is no united position. The global community, the Global North and the Global South have different approach. And that has further emboldened Taliban.

Taliban have in their engagement managed to exclude woman from all the processes that were led by U.N. Recently, we all remember there was a meeting of international community with Taliban in Qatar, in June, and the Taliban condition for attending that meeting was no woman attending the meeting and no discussion on human rights.

To all of us surprise, the U.N. which is mandated to protect fundamental rights of human beings, agreed to the Taliban condition, just to bring him to the negotiation.

So I think concession after concession has brought to the Taliban to a position where they think the world doesn't care about women rights. And my plea to international community, to your viewers, to everybody watches today, if we think Afghanistan problem and women of Afghanistan problem is only the problem of Afghanistan, and we do not really use our force to pressurize Taliban, to make them accountable, this can come to, any border at anytime.

SCIUTTO: Fawzia Koofi, we appreciate the work you're doing and we wish you the best luck going forward. Thanks so much for joining us.

KOOFI: Thank you, Jim, for having me.

SCIUTTO: We are going to take a short break now. For our international viewers, "LIVING GOLF" is next. And if you're streaming us on Max, we will be back with more news right after this short break.

(LIVING GOLF)