Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Zelenskyy Vows Response for Major Russian Attack; U.S. Negotiators Meet in Cairo on Gaza Ceasefire Deal; U.S. Assumes Iran Still Prepared to Attack Israel Directly; Telegram CEO Arrested Sparking Debate Over Free Speech Online; Trump and Harris Campaigns at Odds Over Debate Rules; Looking Back at Historic Moments in Election Debates; Law Lets Australians Ignore After-Hours Work Communications. Aired 12-12:45a ET

Aired August 27, 2024 - 00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[00:00:00]

SARA FISCHER, CNN MEDIA ANALYST: Telegram is not encrypted. You can have some encrypted chats, but it's not an encrypted app, and the reason that matters is the French government is essentially saying you're complicit because this is widely known and out there on your platform. And so I think that's going to have a huge impact on this case.

LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR: That's really fascinating what's going on here. Again, he's not yet been charged, if he will at all.

Sara Fischer, thank you so much.

And I thank you all for watching. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" starts right now.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Ahead here on CNN NEWSROOM.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): It was one of the heaviest strikes, a combined one. More than 100 missiles of various types.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: Moscow strikes back. Hundreds of missiles and drones target Ukraine's power grid. What appears to be Russian retaliation for Ukraine's cross-border invasion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAVEL DUROV, CEO, TELEGRAM: You cannot make a messaging technology secure for everybody except the terrorists.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: The yearslong argument from Telegram CEO Pavel Durov on why his messaging app has virtually zero content control and now that defense could be tested by prosecutors in France.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Now all of a sudden they want to make a change in the rules because she can't answer questions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: The great debate over the great debate. The Trump and Harris campaigns still negotiating terms. Will there be hot mics or muted mics?

ANNOUNCER: Live from Atlanta, this is CNN NEWSROOM with John Vause.

VAUSE: For weeks now Ukraine has been bracing for retaliation from Moscow for its surprise cross-border military offensive in the Russian region of Kursk. And on Monday, hundreds of Russian missiles and drones described as the biggest air attack by Russia since the war began targeted Ukraine's civil infrastructure. Within hours of the airstrikes, the Ukrainian president promised a response.

Much of Ukraine was left battered. At least seven people were killed. The country's power grid was also hit hard. One missile seen here hitting a reservoir and hydroelectric plant near the capital Kyiv. And now nationwide rolling blackouts are in effect. According to Ukraine's Air Force commander, Russia launched at least 127 missiles and 109 drones. The Russian Defense Ministry says among the targets storage sites for weapons sent to Ukraine by Western allies.

And now the Ukrainian president is once again calling on Western allies to lift restrictions on those weapons so Ukrainian forces can strike deeper into Russia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENSKYY (through translator): Every leader, every partner of ours knows what strong decisions are needed to end this war and to end it justly. There should be no restrictions on the range of weapons for Ukraine, while terrorists have no such restrictions. Defenders of life should face no restrictions on weapons, while Russia uses all kinds of its own weapons, as well as showerhead drones and ballistic missiles from North Korea.

The United States, the United Kingdom, France, and other partners have the power to help us stop terror. We need decisions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: We have more details now from CNN's Salma Abdelaziz reporting in from London.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In the early hours of Monday morning, a massive barrage, 100 drones and 100 missiles were fired from Russia at Ukraine, across nearly every single region, according to Ukrainian officials that say at least several people were killed in this massive air raid, this massive air assault. Energy infrastructure was the key targets. So there were power outages across the country. And of course, families were sent fleeing. They were sent into bomb shelters.

I want to show you one scene. Take a listen, in Kyiv.

(VIDEO)

ABDELAZIZ: What you're hearing there is people singing in the metro. This metro is essentially turned into a bomb shelter. So these people were waiting for safety, and what you're seeing there is exactly what President Zelenskyy says is the point, the objective of this air assault, to make normal life in Ukraine even far from the battleground, difficult if not impossible.

And speaking of those front lines, I do want to bring you an update from Kramatorsk where another shocking Russian attack took place over the weekend. Kramatorsk in Eastern Ukraine is near those frontlines. It is often used as a base by journalists who want to cover the conflict and that's exactly what was happening when Hotel Sapphire in Kramatorsk was struck. A Reuters crew was staying there. Several members of that were wounded and their security adviser, a British national, Ryan Evans, was killed.

Reuters does have a statement and I do want to read that to you. It says, "We send our deepest condolences and thoughts to Ryan's family and loved ones. Ryan has helped so many of our journalists cover events around the world. We will miss him terribly."

[00:05:02]

Now, two journalists, two Reuters journalists are being treated in hospitals -- in hospital, rather. Reuters is appealing for more information on the attack. But President Zelenskyy is accusing Russia of deliberately targeting this hotel, of deliberately targeting journalists. He says, President Zelenskyy says that Russia wants to make it ever more dangerous and difficult to report on this conflict.

Salma Abdelaziz, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: With us now from Canberra, Australia, Malcolm Davis, senior analyst of Defense Strategy and Capability at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute.

Malcolm, good to see you.

MALCOLM DAVIS, MILITARY ANALYST: Good to see you, too.

VAUSE: So according to news agency Reuters, in the past few hours, air alert sirens were heard across Ukraine. Air defense systems have activated in the capital Kyiv. Is this now part of a much more determined effort by Russia to simply take out Ukraine's power grid, retaliation for that cross-border incursion? But one thing about the power grid, it withstood these kind of attacks before in the past, but it's also taking a lot of damage. So how much longer can it actually stay working if these attacks continue?

DAVIS: But as you say, they've done this before last year about -- around about this time of the year. They started launching these major attacks on electrical power grid. The aim being to essentially bring down the power grid so that the Ukrainian people had no power and thus no heat during the winter. The aim was to demoralize Ukrainian people break their will. That didn't work.

It looks like the Russians are trying the same thing again, but of course they now have additional missile capabilities with North Koreans providing ballistic missiles. The Iranians providing ballistic missiles and cruise missiles. So these attacks are being stepped up and it's a question of how long can the Russians keep this up versus how long can Ukraine's critical infrastructure will stand these attacks.

I think what needs to happen is for the U.S. and its allies to step up deliveries of air defense and missile defense capabilities to reduce the effectiveness of these attacks.

VAUSE: So that in mind, according to the head of Ukraine's air force, on Monday air defense systems down 102 out of 127 incoming missiles and 99 out of 109 drones, at least 11 T-95 strategic bombers were also used during the attack. On paper, success on shooting down around 90 percent of incoming fire seems pretty good. But not when there are hundreds of missiles and drones incoming. 25 missiles, 10 drones can do some serious damage. That's what we're seeing here now. That's the strategy, right?

DAVIS: That's correct. So even if a few of these missiles get through, they do significant damage and potentially kill significant numbers of civilians and then of course you've got these Australia glide bombs which are being launched from inside Russian territory. So I do think that what is needed is for the West to really step up its supply of missile defense and air defense capabilities. And secondly, President Zelenskyy has made it clear that he wants constraints lifted on the ability to strike deeper into Russia.

That makes eminent sense. And frankly, it makes no sense whatsoever for the Biden administration to impose these constraints on Ukraine.

VAUSE: Well, with that in mind, according to "Politico," there is reporting that while Zelenskyy is urging the U.S. to lift restrictions, or long-range weapons, the reporting is essentially that the White House doubts there's strategic value of striking inside Russia, saying they'll just move the -- you know, the material further inland. And also the administration also assesses that Ukraine does not have enough Army Tactical Missile Systems, ATACMS, to strike the high-value targets in Russia and the U.S. has a limited stockpile of ATACMS it can draw on to send Ukraine.

I mean, that is the logistics involved here. It seems like a sensible argument, but if the U.S. did lift restrictions, wouldn't that effectively see the rest of NATO and other allies lifting their restrictions as well? It would send a message also to Moscow.

DAVIS: It would. And I think that this is key. If you lift these restrictions, yes, there's not an inexhaustible supply of ATACMS, but the actual flow of ATACMS going into Ukraine would increase and suddenly Ukraine could hit targets with greater range. Yes, of course, the Russians can shift some capabilities for (INAUDIBLE), but that reduces their operational flexibility as well. And if you've got them the F-16s operating with their beyond visual range, air to air capabilities, they have some capability as well to blunt these Russian attacks.

So overall, I would argue that these constraints being imposed by the U.S. on Ukraine's ability to launch strikes deeper into Russia make little sense in a tactical operational military perspective. And they reduce Ukraine's ability to ultimately defeat Russia, which then makes little sense strategically, so it is really nonsensical for the Biden administration to keep these constraints imposed.

VAUSE: On the other side of the equation, we had the Russian military response to Ukraine's offensive around Kursk.

[00:10:01]

It's been fairly muted, I guess, is one way of describing it. Here's CNN global affairs analyst Kimberly Dozier with one possible explanation why. Here she is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Putin hasn't been serious about winning the Ukrainian war. If he's serious, he would mobilize his entire population. He would draft more soldiers to make up for his losses on the battlefield. He hasn't done that. Well, he probably hasn't done that because popular opinion would rise up against him unless Russians felt endangered and the Kursk attack is making them feel very threatened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: So in other words it's a motivating factor for, you know, Putin to get tough with Ukraine because he would have the support of the Russian people.

DAVIS: Certainly would. But at the same time, Putin is also watching closely to see what happens in the U.S. presidential election. If you have the return of President Trump to the Oval Office, then suddenly the strategic picture changes for Putin because he has a U.S. president that is more likely to impose some sort of negotiated ceasefire on the Ukrainians, withdraw military aid to the Ukrainians, and that negotiated ceasefire would then benefit Russia.

So that would then give Putin the opportunity to actually achieve some sort of victory without necessarily going down the path of mobilization. And then if Putin does mobilize the end path for mobilization, then that could draw opposition from some aspects of the Russian people. So I think from Putin's perspective, it makes eminent sense to play a waiting game to continue to essentially rain destruction down on the Ukrainians and exploit the constraints that the U.S. has imposed on the Ukrainians' ability to fire back.

And then maybe think in terms of 2025, a much more amenable political and strategic picture emerges for Russia that Putin can then exploit.

VAUSE: Malcolm, good to see you. Thanks so much for your time. Good to have you.

DAVIS: Thank you.

VAUSE: Working level negotiations continue in Cairo for a Gaza ceasefire after some progress was reported over the weekend. One U.S. official says these talks will go on for at least the next few days. All sides including Hamas represented and they're focusing on specific details.

But inside Gaza, no letup to the fighting. The Palestinian Civil Defense says at least 16 people killed in Israeli strikes Monday night, including Gaza City and in Central Gaza's Al Maghazi refugee camp. A baby and two children among the victims.

Senior U.N. official says aid deliveries were paused Monday because of security concerns after Israel ordered new evacuations in Deir al- Balah in Central Gaza.

CNN's Nada Bashir has been following these developments, she has more now reporting in from Cairo.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NADA BASHIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, despite note of optimism from U.S. officials on the progress of ceasefire negotiations, we've yet to see indications of any significant breakthroughs. And frankly little movement in efforts to narrow the gaps between Israel and Hamas. Following talks here in Cairo over the weekend, working level discussions are expected to continue, focus on the finer details of a proposed agreement.

However, there are still believed to be significant sticking points. Hamas has once again stressed that any agreement must include guarantees for an eventual transition from an initial six-week pause in fighting during the first phase of the proposed deal to a permanent ceasefire in the second phase. Israeli officials have yet to provide such guarantees with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in June indicating that Israel would seek a continuation of the war following an initial pause.

Now according to officials, there also continues to be disagreement on the term surrounding the longer-term presence of Israeli forces within the Gaza Strip. While Israel has proposed to station a reduced number of troops along the Philadelphi Corridor, a buffer zone between Egypt and Southern Gaza, Hamas has reiterated that it wants to see a full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza.

However, one senior U.S. official has told CNN that negotiators believe Hamas may be more flexible on an Israeli troop presence in Gaza during that first phase of the deal. With ongoing debate as to whether parts of the Philadelphi Corridor should be considered densely populated areas and therefore areas where troops should not be present under the terms of the proposed deal.

Now, officials say mediators expect that Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar will receive a copy of the latest proposal in the coming days, though the timing of any expected response remains unclear. For now, discussions continue to try to hammer out those final details of the proposal and to bring Hamas and Israel to some sort of agreement. But there is no indication that that agreement is in any way imminent.

Nada Bashir, CNN, in Cairo.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: White House official says Iran is believed to still be planning a direct strike on Israel, despite an intense exchange of rocket fire over the weekend in Israel and the Hezbollah, the Iranian militant group or backed by Iran, I should say. Iran has vowed a response over the last month's assassination of Hamas political leader Ismail Haniyeh in Tehran. (INAUDIBLE) again by a top Iranian military general.

[00:15:03]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAJ. GEN. MOHAMMAD BAGHERI, ISLAMIC REVOLUTIONARY GUARD CORPS (through translator): Revenge for this criminal act whether by the resistance axis or by the Islamic Republic of Iran is certain. The Islamic Republic of Iran will not fall into media games and provocations, and will decide how and when its revolutionary action will be taken.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: The latest development now from CNN's Ben Wedeman reporting in from Beirut.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A day after Hezbollah and Israel exchanged their biggest round of attack and counterattack since last October, the conflict along the border between Israel and Lebanon seems to have settled back into a predictable cycle with Israel Monday launching more than a dozen air drone and artillery strikes on Southern Lebanon and Hezbollah targeting Israeli military positions on the other side of the border.

In a speech Sunday evening, Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah expressed satisfaction with the results of the group's revenge attacks for Israel's killing of a senior Hezbollah military commander late last month. And although he didn't rule out further retaliatory attacks, Nasrallah sent a clear message to those in Lebanon who have been on edge for the last month. People he said can take a breath and relax. Who can't relax are the more than 100,000 Lebanese civilians who've

had to flee their homes in the south since last October. Hezbollah has repeatedly stressed it will halt its strikes against Israel if there's a ceasefire in Gaza and given that little progress has been made on that front, the shared border lands of Lebanon in Israel seem to be settling back into their grim routine.

I'm Ben Wedeman, CNN, reporting from Beirut.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: When we come back, the battle between online privacy and safety. The founder of Telegram faces charges for criminal activity, which happened on his messaging app. Details on that in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VAUSE: In war-torn Sudan, torrential rain has caused a major dam to collapse, sweeping away entire villages. Hundreds of people believed to be missing, at least 30 confirmed dead. More than 500 days of civil war has taken a massive toll on the country preventing government attention and resources from vital infrastructure. Aid groups are warning for months now that the country is on the brink of collapse and widespread starvation.

French President Emmanuel Macron says the arrest of Telegram founder Pavel Durov in Paris on Sunday was, quote, "in no way a political decision. " Supporters of the Russian-born CEO say he's a political prisoner and that his arrest is an attack on free speech. French officials are quick to shoot that down. The Paris public prosecutor says Durov is facing 12 separate charges. Part of a broad investigation into criminal activity on that popular messaging app.

Alex Marquardt explains.

[00:20:06]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): He's been called the Mark Zuckerberg of Russia. Tech billionaire Pavel Durov, the creator of the globally popular messaging app Telegram.

DUROV: Twelve billion messages delivered daily.

MARQUARDT: Now in custody in France after the French police arrested him in a Paris airport. French authorities say that Durov's arrest is part of an investigation of charges that Telegram was allegedly complicit in aiding money laundering, drug trafficking, and distributing child pornography.

French prosecutors also say that Durov refused to comply with demands to help intercept potentially elicit communications. In a statement, the company said Durov has nothing to hide. It is absurd to claim that a platform or its owner are responsible for abuse of that platform. DUROV: I truly believe that privacy of our users and what they had

trust to us and our responsibility for them is the most important thing in our business.

MARQUARDT: Durov was flying to Paris from Azerbaijan, where Russian President Vladimir Putin also visited last week. The Kremlin has denied that Putin and Durov met. Durov had also created the Russian app VKontakte, known as Russia's Facebook, and fled the country in 2014 after refusing to turn over user data from the app to the Russian government. Russia tried to ban Telegram in 2018, but lifted the ban in 2020.

With 900 million users worldwide, Telegram is used by everyday people, governments, and companies to send official messages, but the app's encryption also makes it popular among criminals and terrorists. In France, it was found on the phones of the terrorists who attacked the Bataclan concert hall in Paris.

DUROV: They're also using iPhones and Android phones and microchips, kind of misleading to say that we were responsible, a tech company is responsible for that.

MARQUARDT: Durov's arrest has revived questions about the responsibilities of social media companies to moderate their content and assist law enforcement versus protecting their users' privacy and freedom of speech.

French President Emmanuel Macron said in a statement on social media, France is deeply committed to freedom of expression and communication, and that the arrest is in no way a political decision.

Alex Marquardt, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Karim Hijazi is an expert in cybersecurity and intelligence, as well as founder and CEO of Vigilocity.

Thanks for being with us.

KARIM HIJAZI, FOUNDER AND CEO, VIGILOCITY: Good to have you, John. Long time.

VAUSE: Yes. It's been awhile. It's been a minute, I guess so. So there are still a lot of missing details about Durov's arrest. His supporters say this is all political. Listen to a Russian lawmaker Maria Butina. Here she is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARIA BUTINA, RUSSIAN PARLIAMENT MEMBER: The arrest is Pavel Durov means that there is no freedom of speech. I do believe that Durov, Pavel Durov is a political prisoner that he is the victim of a witch- hunt that the West do for the people, who are not simply minded as they are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: That could be true, possible, but there's also reporting that prosecutors say they launched investigation last month into a person unnamed for violations, including the spread of child pornography, peddling illegal drugs, failure to cooperate with authorities in a probe into organized fraud.

We don't know if Durov is being held in connection to any of those crimes. But in the bigger picture, this line between the right to free speech and, you know, spreading child pornography, for example, seems pretty clear. One doesn't affect the other.

HIJAZI: Yes, they're very challenging topics on to themselves. So when you deal with this kind of thing, which unfortunately the unprecedented nature of this is what's causing such an outcry because everyone is saying that, look, the founder of a platform, we'll call it the conduit of the material, can't fundamentally be solely responsible for the issues here.

Now, of course, the counterbalance is that he wasn't cooperating or at least they're alleging that he wasn't cooperating with law enforcement. But this is common across all these platforms unfortunately. And, you know, 900 million users, nearly a billion users, that's a lot of moderation that is -- that has to happen, subjective material, all kinds of things that have been tried and failed in the past with other platforms.

No easy task. So not an excuse for it by any stretch of the imagination. I don't think any of those things should ever exist on these platforms but this is a little bit of an attack the symptom versus the cure problem that I think is happening quite frankly.

VAUSE: Look, as Durov makes the argument that, you know, the stuff that ordinary people like about Telegram, the innocent people who use it every day, is the same thing that the terrorists and the pedophiles and the organized crime people like.

HIJAZI: Yes, and it's interesting because something that's sort of fallen flat with this is that the platform actually isn't an encrypted platform. You have to actually choose that with this, unlike most of the other platforms that are encrypted by default from end to end. So there's a lot of misrepresentation that this is an all-encompassing encrypted platform.

[00:25:04]

A lot of the communications are completely clear. A little bit of why I think law enforcement do find it to be a fairly easy target for all intents and purposes because you can see things that you otherwise wouldn't be able to get to with the other ones. So I don't know that this platform is necessarily more I would say maybe complicit or prolific in terms of bad activities as any of the others are fundamentally, it's just you can't see it as easily with the others. The group chats can go up to 200,000 users. That's a lot. And so those are not encrypted chats. VAUSE: So the former Facebook executive Brian Fishman, who now focuses

on counterterrorism, he compared Telegram to X, which he says has light moderation content. But it's still pretty crappy. Meanwhile, Telegram is another level.

Here's what he posted on Instagram. It has been the key hub for ISIS for a decade and tolerates CSAM, which is child sexual abuse material, it's a reasonable law enforcement engagement for years. It's not light content moderation. It's a different approach entirely.

Does this ultimately, though. You know, whether it's X or whether it's Telegram stem from, you know, the decision years ago by the U.S. to treat social media companies not as essential public utilities like telephones and electricity, but more like media companies.

HIJAZI: You know, it's interesting because the problem with a lot of this and I even sort of alluded to this in the dialogue before this conversation, which is that by going and attacking the conduit, again, by actually taking down these platforms, you're only pushing the same threat actors to go find new innovative way of delivering their material.

So unfortunately, this actually could impact that, meaning long-term coverts, long-term implants by law enforcement are going to have to be retooled for all intents and purposes if this thing shifts focus and people started to say, meaning people as in nefarious actors decided that this is not a good place for them to do what they do. They're going to go find more innovative, creative ways to do things.

Not an excuse to stop trying to attack every which way you can to bring it down but this kind of thing doesn't do anything other than educate somewhat the bad guy, saying, oh, that was a good run. Now we're going to move on to this next one. So sort of suggesting this one was worse in some ways and all the rest because the founder fundamentally just had a different kind of approach to privacy I think is kind of a strawman argument.

VAUSE: It's almost kind of (INAUDIBLE), wouldn't you say, but when you explain it, kind of makes a lot of sense. The other high profile supporter of Durov is Elon Musk, owner of X, on which he had plenty to tweet about making a sarcastic prediction. It's 2030 in Europe and you're being executed for liking a meme. Oh, Elon.

Durov seems to be a fan of Musk. Here he is speaking on X back in April this year.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DUROV: To be fair you have now Twitter or X, and that seemingly becoming more pro-freedom of speech. It's a great development and things are starting to change, it seems. We love the fact that Elon bought Twitter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: At least somebody thought it was a good idea. These two billionaires, though, Durov and Musk, they seem to have a lot in common interest in the background of their biographies and their attitudes.

HIJAZI: Yes. I mean, we can only wonder what kind of goes through people like Elon and Pavel's heads as far as what they're doing when they're building these types of platforms. However, there's no question the choices they've made have impacted everyone. I mean, you're talking about immense amounts of usership, another concern has always been fact that much of a groundswell of usership all saying something, all able to kind of bring people in.

Look, admittedly I've used Telegram. I see -- I get invited to random platforms I'm not interested in being part of, but I'm somehow found on it and invited to it. So things like this do happen. So from an influence standpoint, you know, Telegram or anything else, these things do represent a very powerful force for either both information and disinformation. So it is a real thing. Again, you know, is the founder culpable explicitly or cursively in this case, I don't know. But definitely these things are things to be managed. I think regulatory policies have to be really sophisticated to manage these problems going forward. I don't think it's going to be easy.

VAUSE: Yes. I guess, you know, in one respect we'll find out, you know, in France when this case actually goes to court if it does, if it's, you know, the founder can be held responsible.

Karim, thanks so much. Good to see you.

HIJAZI: Good to see you, too.

VAUSE: When we come back, sweeping through swing states and bickering over debate rules. We're tracking the latest moves in the race for the White House.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VAUSE: Hello, everyone. I'm John Vause. You're watching CNN NEWSROOM.

[00:32:01]

Seventy days to the U.S. presidential election, and both the Harris and Trump campaigns are focusing on battleground states, which will likely determine the outcome.

On Wednesday and Thursday, the U.S. vice president will visit Georgia, a swing state which polls show has been leaning towards Trump, but the Democrats believe it can be flipped, just like they did four years ago in 2020.

And the Trump campaign is heading to Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania later this week. Those are states that bolster the so- called Democratic Blue Wall that Trump toppled in 2016, and President Joe Biden flipped back in four years ago, as well.

Meantime, during a campaign stop in Detroit Monday, Trump cast doubt about whether he will, in fact, debate Vice President Harris, as scheduled, for September 10.

More details now from CNN's Kristen Holmes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Mr. President.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The debate over debates continues. Both campaigns -- the Harris and the Trump campaign -- appear to be at an impasse, this time over whether or not --

HOLMES (voice-over): -- the mics will the muted while the other candidate is speaking at that September 10 ABC debate.

Now, originally, Donald Trump and President Joe Biden had agreed to terms that were similar to that of the CNN debate, that first debate in which the mics --

HOLMES: -- would be muted, as we saw at that CNN debate, while the other candidate was talking.

Now, the Harris campaign is saying that they want those mics unmuted. Now, Trump's team says that's not what we agreed to. But a lot of this here is just posturing as each side tries to figure out what's best for their candidate.

HOLMES (voice-over): However, Donald Trump himself talked about this while he was in Virginia, commemorating the third anniversary of the Afghanistan withdrawal. And he seemed to essentially undercut his own campaign. Take a listen.

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, 2024 PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: So, we're thinking about it. We're thinking about it. They also want to change the rules. You know, the deal was we keep the same rules. Now all of a sudden, they want to make a change in the rules, because she can't answer questions.

HOLMES (voice-over): And you're going to hear a lot of posturing, a lot of spin. For example, I will remind you that it was just three weeks ago when Kamala Harris was brought into the top of the ticket, when Donald Trump backed out; and Kamala Harris's team saying --

HOLMES: -- you can't do that. It doesn't matter who's at the top of the ticket. You already agreed to the debate.

Donald Trump's team saying, No, everything has changed.

Obviously, now, we're almost in a complete opposite situation, in which Donald Trump's team is saying, We want to agree to those original rules that we were -- already agreed to with President Joe Biden.

HOLMES (voice-over): And Kamala Harris is saying, No, I'm at the top of the ticket now. Things have changed.

Again, all of this posturing, all of this, the campaigns trying to make sure that their own candidate --

HOLMES: -- looks the best when they take the stage. And the big question, of course: will they take the stage at that September 10th debate?

One thing we know is, leading up to that, Donald Trump's campaign says that he is going to be pounding the pavement. It's going to be, quote, unquote, "Trump on steroids."

They say he's ramping up his travel. He's going to be in battleground states. We have heard this before. We will wait and see if it actually comes to fruition.

Kristen Holmes, CNN, Detroit, Michigan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: If the two candidates actually do debate, Kamala Harris is expected to perform much better than Joe Biden. That debate ultimately cost him the party nomination. And it shows just how consequential a single election debate can actually be.

[00:35:08]

Brian Todd looks back at some game-changing debate moments.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm proposing that everybody, they pay -- the millionaires pay 1 percent.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was the debate performance that changed the dynamic of this race, ultimately ending President Biden's candidacy for reelection.

BIDEN: Before, what I've been able to do with the -- well, with the COVID -- excuse me, with dealing with everything we have to do with -- look, if we finally beat Medicare.

TODD (voice-over): Biden, after a disastrous debate, leaving top Democrats looking for a way to get him out of the race, or openly questioning his fitness for office.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): I think it's a legitimate question to say, Is this an episode, or is this a condition?

HANS NICHOLS, AXIOS POLITICAL REPORTER: The debate changed the race debate, or the debate just laid bare for the American public -- and more importantly, Democratic members of Congress -- that Joe Biden could not be their nominee.

TODD (voice-over): From Biden to Nixon, a period spanning more than 60 years, fraught moments in debates have often been decisive.

September 1960, in the very first televised presidential debate, Richard Nixon, who was ill, was visibly sweating while his opponent, John F. Kennedy, looked youthful and composed.

TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: When the two were viewed side-by-side, and you asked yourself, who would you -- whose finger would you like to be on the nuclear button? It became clear you didn't want the sweaty guy from California.

TODD (voice-over): In the vice-presidential debate in 1988, Dan Quayle characterized himself as a Republican version of a young John Kennedy, which teed up his opponent, Lloyd Benson, perfectly.

LLOYD BENSON (D), FORMER VICE-PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy.

TODD (voice-over): That election season, Benson's running mate, Michael Dukakis, in his debate with George H.W. Bush, was asked a fateful question referencing his wife, by CNN's Bernard Shaw.

BERNARD SHAW, FORMER CNN ANCHOR: Governor, if Kitty Dukakis were raped and murdered, would you favor an irrevocable death penalty for the killer?

MICHAEL DUKAKIS (D), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: No, I don't, Bernard, and I think you know that I've opposed the death penalty during all of my life.

NAFTALI: It was terrible. This was the opportunity to show humanity. And instead, he made himself look like more of a humorless, emotionless robot than you'd seen before.

TODD (voice-over): There were the wordless missteps, the body language gaffes. At a debate in 2000, Al Gore audibly sighs.

GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There's differences --

(AL GORE SIGHS)

TODD (voice-over): And in another debate that year, Gore gets a little too close to George W. Bush onstage.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Any little tick or habit that a candidate may have is something that voters could seize on, and it could change the way they view the candidate.

TODD: Analyst Hans Nichols believes, if the September 10 event is the only debate between Donald Trump and Kamala Harris, there will be more pressure on both of them to perform well at that debate and to not mess up.

Of the two, Nichols believes there's more overall pressure on Vice President Harris, because she's had fewer unscripted moments recently.

Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: A helium leak has delayed the launch of Polaris Dawn by 24 hours.

In an update posted on X, SpaceX says the quick disconnect umbilical was being examined. That's on -- part of the ground equipment.

Both the Crew Dragon capsule and the Falcon 9 rocket are in good condition, according to this statement.

The five-day Polaris Dawn mission will -- will attempt the first ever commercial spacewalk. A crew of four civilians heading to the highest altitude of any crewed space mission since the Apollo program, which ended more than 50 years ago.

Workers in Australia now have their right to ignore their bosses after work. After hours, that is. When we come back, the country's new law, enshrining the right to disconnect.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:40:59]

VAUSE: Australia is the latest country to give workers the right to ignore work-related after-hour calls, as well as texts and emails.

Chris Kohler from 9 News Australia explains how it works.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS KOHLER, 9 NEWS FINANCE EDITOR (voice-over): Steven McGibbony works for a government agency, and Steve Howland (ph) works at a big bank. Both know what it's like to be hounded by a boss.

But from today, they -- and almost everyone else -- have the legal right to ignore them.

STEVE HOWLAND (PH), WORKS AT A BANK: I think people's work life will get massively better.

KOHLER (voice-over): The lines between work and home, they say, have become blurred, leading to a spike in burnout.

HOWLAND (ph): Workload just goes up and up and up. It's almost as if your employers in the finance industry expect my -- my employer to be my religion.

Kohler (voice-over): Everyone at a workplace of more than 15 people can now ignore unreasonable contact from bosses and third parties after hours, with new federal laws preventing any repercussions.

MICHELE O'NEILL, ACTU PRESIDENT: You're going to get bed (ph) out workers.

KOHLER (voice-over): ACTU President Michele O'Neill has pushed for the laws. She says being disorganized is no longer an excuse to bother staff at home.

O'NEILL: It's about unreasonable contact. So, it doesn't say that there can be no emergency contact out-of-hours or no way that employers and workers can be in contact. It's about if it's reasonable or not.

KOHLER: But it's that word, "reasonable," that's the problem for industry groups. They say they don't have enough clarification of what is and is not reasonable contact. And they say conflict will follow.

INNES WILLOX, AUSTRALIAN INDUSTRY GROUP: This is going to end up in a lot of legal action. This is going to appear before the courts, and it's just going to take time to work through.

KOHLER (voice-over): But workers say time's up. Contact outside hours shouldn't be expected, and it should come at a cost.

STEVEN MCGIBBONY, GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE: And I think that's really important at the moment too, with cost of living, that when you are expecting that you might get a phone call from work, then you're being paid for that.

KOHLER (voice-over): For workers in small businesses, the same protections will apply from this time next year.

Chris Kohler, 9 News.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Thank you for watching. I'm John Vause, back with more news at the top of the hour. Meantime, stay with us. WORLD SPORT is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:45:36]

(WORLD SPORT)