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Now, Trump in Court to Appeal E. Jean Carroll Civil Verdict; 14-Year-Old Suspect and His Father Make First Court Appearance; Sen. J.D. Vance (R-OH) on School Shootings, I Don't Like That This is a Fact of Life. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired September 06, 2024 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:00]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. You are live in the CNN Newsroom. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington.

We begin the hour with Donald Trump returning in front of a judge this morning as lawyers for the former president and E. Jean Carroll are set to square off in Manhattan's Federal Appeals Court. Trump is seeking an appeal after a jury found he sexually abused and defamed the former columnist, awarding her $5 million following a trial last year. The case is separate from the related defamation trial that was held earlier this year when a jury awarded Carroll $83 million, again, you should recall that.

CNN's Kristen Holmes is with me now. Kristen. What do we know about this appeal? And why is Trump expected in court?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: He's not expected in court. He has chosen to go to court. And just a reminder, after he was awarded the $5 million, that was a two-week trial. The jury determined that he never once was in the courtroom, and he never once called a single witness. So, clearly, he is putting on a bit of a show here, something that he likes to do around his court appearances. They say that he wants to face his accuser in court. They will both be here.

So, here's what we know right now about this appeal. We know that both Trump, as I said, and E. Jean Carroll will both be in attendance. That is obviously significant, especially given the fact that he never showed up before. There are no cameras allowed in court. The hearing is expected to last just roughly 30 minutes. And I will add here, that's not on here, but just to add, they don't expect a decision today. They don't even think one is likely before the election.

Each side will get about ten minutes for oral arguments. This is obviously, as you said, separate from the defamation trial that awarded Carroll $83.3 million in damages. And Donald Trump has announced that afterwards, he's going to be delivering remarks or giving a press conference. They're calling it a press conference. We always try to hedge, so sometimes he just doesn't take questions at Trump Tower.

ACOSTA: Yes, we've seen that movie before. All right, Kristen, stay with me. And joining me now for more on this, White Collar Defense Lawyer Seth Berenzweig, former Trump attorney and CNN Legal Commentator Tim Parlatore and CNN Legal Analyst and former Prosecutor Karen Agnifilo.

Seth, let me start with you first. Do you think this appeal will be successful? What do you make of Trump being in court?

SETH BERENZWEIG, CONSTITUTIONAL ATTORNEY: It's going to be an uphill battle, and I think it's important to kind of zoom out along the lines that were mentioned a moment ago. It's unusual in civil trials to have an appeal where the defense didn't put on any evidence, any rebuttal witness, very, very unusual. We're going to be hearing about specific evidentiary arguments today, specifically with respect to the Access Hollywood tape and how that came out during the use of a deposition excerpt for Mr. Trump, as well as other witnesses to other ladies that had accused Mr. Trump of similar conduct.

And given the fact that it is a federal appellate case, it will go under advisement to the bench. We will not hear anything this year. We won't hear anything before the first quarter of next year. So, a lot of fireworks today, not much happening after that prior to the federal election.

ACOSTA: And, Karen, Trump did not attend this trial last year. He did, however, attend the separate defamation trial, lots of different cases obviously at play here. Why do you think he changed his mind today? What's going on? Is that a good idea for him to be in court?

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think he was in court for the second trial and he doesn't get to participate in this at all. He gets to sit there and listen. So, whether or not him sitting there and the judge is seeing him makes any difference whatsoever, I don't know that that would because he didn't attend the trial. And the judges will certainly know that when -- and he didn't put on a defense. He didn't do much in this particular trial.

ACOSTA: Yes. And, Tim, as we've been saying, he's not going to be allowed to speak today. He is going to have this news conference or press conference, whatever they're calling it, at Trump Tower in a few hours from now. Is he trying to go back to that playbook that we saw during the Republican primaries, where he would go to the courthouse, put on a big show? Does he think there's a political benefit to all of this? Would you advise him to be even down there today?

TIM PARLATORE, CNN LEGAL COMMENTATOR: Well, you know, for an appeal, I generally don't have my clients go unless they want to go for the entertainment value, because it's not something that -- you know, appeals are very different from trial.

[10:05:02]

And the judges are looking directly at the lawyer and asking a lot of pointed questions to the lawyer.

So, I don't think it makes any difference that he's there, but I do know that he is, you know, upset at how that trial went and I think that he probably regrets not having been there and the way that first trial was handled. So, I do think that he has kind of a personal interest in getting up there to watch this because of that history.

Is it going to make a difference in the case? No, not at all.

ACOSTA: I was going to say, because you've been with him before, does he think that being in the courtroom in front of the judge somehow affects the outcome, you'll get a more favorable outcome if he's there, you know, sort of, you know, his presence is there and so on?

PARLATORE: I don't think that he necessarily thinks that so much as the, that first trial, he wanted to be there. He probably -- he should have been there. That case was handled by, you know, a lawyer who's no longer with his team and, you know, it. And he can't really claim ineffective citizens of counsel because it's a civil case. And so I think that that really is playing into, you know, he wants to, you know, show that he's involved in this case.

ACOSTA: Yes. And, Seth, I mean, your sense of, you know, whether you would have a client in the courtroom for something like this? As Tim was saying, he, you would purely be there for entertainment purposes, which, obviously, you know, insert your own comment there, but --

BERENZWEIG: Well, ordinarily in a federal appeals case, usually, but not always, you have your client appear, especially in civil and business litigation. So, that aspect is not unusual. Of course, we have Mr. Trump there who really knows how to run the circus, so to speak, so that's an unusual feature.

But the thing that is so fascinating to me handling a lot of federal civil litigation is that the arguments today are going to be talking about the weight and the admission of certain evidence. Well, it's hard to argue with the scorer when you don't put your players out on the field. Since they didn't have any witnesses in the case, the balance of evidence is going to ultimately also go to whether any error constitutes reversible error.

Remember, with the witnesses that were part on in the case to talk about whether he engaged in kind of a pattern, if Team Trump knew how to handle discovery in civil litigation case, they would have at a minimum taken a couple of depositions of video by a couple of female colleagues that they could play as deposition excerpts during the trial to be able to rebut that pattern evidence, that's basic federal litigation 101. They didn't even do that.

So, this is pretty unusual in a few different dimensions.

ACOSTA: Yes. Karen, your thoughts on that? Because, I mean, obviously, you know, if we're going to get into an alleged pattern of behavior here, that is not good for Donald Trump.

AGNIFILO: Yes. So, that's what they're really arguing about was in addition to E. Jean Carroll testifying that he raped her in a dressing room, they put on two other women who described similar behavior. And the question is going to be whether the judge, Judge Louis Kaplan, who was the trial judge, whether he abused his discretion in allowing those other women to testify in addition to the Access Hollywood tape, where he admitted to essentially, forcefully touching women in their private areas. And, you know, the plaintiff, Ms. Carroll in her case, argue that tends to show what he does and his modus operandi, which is -- you know, or his M.O. That's what the exception is to allow this type of evidence.

And so that's what they're going to argue in this appeal is whether the judge abused his discretion. And that's a pretty high standard and hard -- you know, they give a lot of leeway to the trial judge.

ACOSTA: Yes. Kristen, I mean, getting to the political dimension of all of this, I mean, I have to think that Trump's advisers are going to be on the edge of their seat all day long today, because he has gotten himself in trouble before talking about E. Jean Carroll. He's in this courtroom, you know, appearing in person and then has this so- called news conference over a Trump Tower where he may say whatever pops into his head about E. Jean Carroll eight weeks before an election.

HOLMES: Yes. I mean, there's obviously political risk, but there's also political reward for him. I mean, we have seen time and time again that unlike almost any other politician in all time, these legal trials have actually helped him, showing up in a courtroom, saying that he is politically persecuted

ACOSTA: During the GOP primaries.

HOLMES: During the GOP primaries and fundraising. He raised a lot of money.

Now, obviously, yes, there are questions of whether or not that plays in a general election as well. This is really the first time we're seeing him do this. Again, he's going to be giving that press conference.

I will say one thing, which is, yes, he obviously is not someone who can be controlled. However, lawyers have briefed him over and over and over again on what he can and cannot say. You see him time and time again walking all the way up to the line.

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Now, obviously he's crossed that line before. He could do it again, but they are out there telling him every day what he can't say.

ACOSTA: Very quickly, we are expecting a key decision from Judge Merchan in the hush money trial.

HOLMES: Yes, this is actually a really big deal. So, September 18th, that's supposed to be the sentencing day for that hush money trial. He is going to decide right now if they're going to delay it. Donald Trump's team has asked for them to. District Attorney Alvin Bragg did not oppose that. This will be the second time that they delay this if, in fact, the judge agrees to it.

ACOSTA: If we're going to see a sentencing. HOLMES: Now I will tell you, Donald Trump is fundraising as though he's going to be sentenced on September 18th. I just got a note either yesterday or the day before that said, when I'm sentenced in just a few days, I'll be wearing this hat. Come buy this hat. You can wear it too. So, he's at least positioning himself like he's going to be sentenced.

ACOSTA: But it could be anti-climactic.

HOLMES: We'll see what happens. Exactly. And they could delay it. Or it could be anti-climactic, in general, yes.

ACOSTA: Or the sentence could be probation or something like that.

HOLMES: Exactly, that's what I mean. Yes.

ACOSTA: And we'll see what happens. All right guys, thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

Coming up, a father and son in court, both facing murder charges in connection to the Georgia school shooting here, what the suspected shooter told the judge.

And later, Donald Trump says he'll put Elon Musk in charge of one of the most consequential roles in U.S. government. What he's planning, coming up.

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ACOSTA: The 14-year-old suspect in the Georgia High School shooting along with his father are back in jail right now after making their first court appearances. Colt Gray was only in front of a judge for a few minutes. He could face life in prison if convicted. He's charged with four counts of felony murder after killing two students and two teachers on Wednesday. Nine others were wounded.

Just minutes after the suspected shooter was let out of the courtroom, his father, Colin, walked in for his own arraignment. He sat down in front of the judge and had his charges read to him for the same crime. Colin Gray's arrest affidavit alleges he gave his son a firearm, quote, with knowledge he was a threat to himself and others.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS HOSEY, DIRECTOR, GEORGIA BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION: These charges stem from Mr. Gray knowingly allowing his son, Colt to possess a weapon.

He is in custody at this time.

The arrest was made when we had the probable cause to make the arrest.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ACOSTA: Our next guest knows the tragedy of losing a child to gun violence all too well as 14-year-old daughter Jaime Guttenberg was killed in the Parkland school shooting in 2018. He's since dedicated his life to fighting for gun safety. Fred Guttenberg joins us now. Fred, thank you for being back on the program. We have you back far too often, unfortunately, but I do want to ask you what's your reaction to the suspect's father facing charges in this case? What do you take away from that?

FRED GUTTENBERG, LOST DAUGHTER JAIME IN 2018 PARKLAND SHOOTING: Listen, the father should be charged. The book should be thrown at him. The father bought the gun for this kid after the FBI visited and law enforcement visited. The father absolutely is responsible and must be held to account.

But, listen, I want to say something else because you know, following the news of the father, there was also a whole lot of other news about comments from J.D. Vance.

ACOSTA: Yes. And we're going to get to that. I do want to play that. Yes. I do want to play that.

GUTTENBERG: But it matters. Yes. It matters here. Because this case, this shooting puts an end to every lie about why we're in the place that we are today. This father, I hope he rots in the most evil place in the universe, along with his son. This was a preventable act of gun violence. And sadly, until we take on the reality that our policy choices and politicians who refuse to make the right policy choices accept the change that we need, this will happen again.

ACOSTA: Yes. I mean, the system is riddled with loopholes, as you know, and openings and vulnerabilities. Police say Gray bought his son this gun for Christmas. That's months after authorities first contacted the family about a separate school shooting threat last year, although this kid denied making those threats. I mean, it's remarkable. I mean, people talk all the time about, well, if there's tougher enforcement and their visits to the home from authorities that can prevent these sorts of things, and then it didn't happen here.

GUTTENBERG: Well, listen, and to some extent in moments like this, we're also subject to local laws. And, unfortunately, in the state of Georgia, the laws are not acceptable. They had no red flag law, okay? There's no safe storage law, okay? And so, you know, the kinds of laws that smart states and smart communities and on a national level are being pushed now that are stopping these things, they weren't in place here.

ACOSTA: And, Fred, let's talk about what you just mentioned a few moments ago, J.D. Vance, the Republican vice presidential nominee, had this to say about what took place in Georgia here. Here was his response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. J.D. VANCE (R-OH), VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Clearly, strict gun laws is not the thing that is going to solve this problem. What is going to solve this problem, and I really do believe this, is, look, I don't like this, I don't like to admit this, I don't like that this is a fact of life. But if you are a psycho and you want to make headlines, you realize that our schools are soft targets.

[10:20:02]

And we have got to bolster security in our schools.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: First of all, we have to get out of the way. I mean, it's a fact of life in the United States. It doesn't have to be, but it's not a fact of life around the world, but your response to that?

GUTTENBERG: Well, but it's not even a fact of life in the United States. There's 115, 000 schools in the United States. There are far fewer than 100 school shootings per year.

And so here's my response. You know, I joined the Brady Pack as a senior adviser because there is only one way to solve the incorrect assessments and the bad policy prescriptions of people like J.D. Vance, and it's to make sure we get them out of the world of politics and we get them out of any decision-making when it comes to our public safety.

What J.D. Vance says is a fact of life. Well, for me, that would be true. I visit my daughter at the cemetery. But I will tell you, last year, we invited every member of Congress to walk through the Parkland school where my daughter was shot. It is still an untouched crime scene. The blood is there. The DNA is there. The coursework was still on the desks, as if the kids had just walked away from them.

J.D. Vance never showed up. He didn't come. But you know who did? Kamala Harris. Kamala Harris came and walked that building with me. Because rather than thinking this as a fact of life that we need to accept, she wanted to see everything that led to the tragedy that could have been done to stop it and how we actually need to rethink schools and public safety going forward in a world where there are 400 million-plus weapons that aren't only making their ways into schools but making them to political rallies. I mean, J.D. Vance forgets Donald Trump was shot just a couple of months ago.

And so this is not something we have to say is a fact of life. It is uniquely American. But it is also a fact of failed policy and failed politicians and we get to fix this with our vote.

ACOSTA: Right. And one of the other facts of life is that the poll show that a vast majority of Americans want tougher background checks. They want a whole host of gun safety laws that just aren't getting through the Congress because of opposition from the gun lobby. And that too is a fact of life. I mean, that's just a fact that these laws can't get through the Congress and they can't get signed by the president because of the gun lobby. That's a fact of life.

GUTTENBERG: It's a fact of life. You know, Jim, I'm going to tell you about two months ago, I visited the ATF, Alcohol, Tobacco Firearms facility in West Virginia, where they are responsible for storing every transaction related to the sale of a gun. And because of Congress, this is a fact of life that we all need to deal with, and we need to fire those who are behind it, because of Congress, they are congressionally mandated into not updating the storage of those records. They are literally held in 30,000 boxes on pieces of paper.

Because of Congress, they're not allowed to update. So, the ATF has to go to Adobe and say, we're going to pay you money to dumb down your software because we're not allowed to store digital records here. That is because of Congress. Because of Congress, the ATF, which is responsible for helping to track gun transactions that would put guns in the hands of people who shouldn't have them, or to solve gun crimes, they are prohibited from doing -- excuse me, from doing their job. That's a fact of life. But it is a fact of failed policy from failed politicians who we can fire. We don't need to accept this as normal.

ACOSTA: Fred Guttenberg, always good to talk to you. Thanks for joining us.

GUTTENBERG: Thank you. I appreciate it.

He saved my baby. He saved my world. That's a quote there. Mother of one of the shooting survivors says a teacher injured in the shooting saved lives with his actions. David Phoenix was shot when he closed his classroom door after hearing banging outside. He then managed to shut the door before falling to the ground. Phoenix's daughter says the first thing he said out of surgery was asking, is everyone okay?

Nicole Bondy (ph), whose daughter, Hazel, was in Phoenix's classroom, posted to Facebook thanking not only him but another teacher who helped him. The teachers are heroes. The children are brave.

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And as a mother of a survivor, thank you, a sentiment echoed last night by the sheriff.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF JUD SMITH, BARROW COUNTY, GEORGIA: Please keep these children, these teachers. We call them teachers, but I call them heroes.

Emotions are very high, obviously, but we told them that we love them. We love our teachers and what they do. And we're very happy at the fact that they stood in the gap between evil to protect their children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: To quote Senator Vance, the high rate of gun violence is a fact of life only in America. Other countries don't live like this. The U.S. has by far the most firearm homicides per capita of any large, high income country. There are about 120 guns for every 100 Americans. No other nation has more privately owned firearms than people. And so far in 2024, the U.S. averages more than 1.5 mass shootings every day.

We'll be right back.

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