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Trump Still Targeting Haitian Migrants Over Debunked Claims; Iranian Hackers Target Trump Campaign; Hezbollah Vowing Revenge; Interview With Rep. Dean Phillips (D-MN). Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired September 19, 2024 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:01:14]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: Good morning. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington.

We begin this hour in the Middle East, where a series of deadly attacks targeting Hezbollah has the organization vowing revenge. Its leader is calling the attacks -- quote -- "massacres." Lebanese officials say at least 37 people have been killed and thousands more injured after pagers and walkie-talkies exploded across the country.

They're blaming Israel for the attacks. Israel's defense minister is claiming a -- quote -- "new era of war is beginning," a move that threatens to push the region back to the brink of wider conflict.

Joining me now for more on this is former CIA officer Bob Baer.

Bob, good to see you, as always. We appreciate it.

I do want to ask you about this new "New York Times" reporting that Israel hid these explosives inside these devices and added a switch in each one, which they later used to detonate them remotely. What do you make of all that?

BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST: Well, that'd be the way to do it.

If you use a potent explosive like PETN, which they're talking about, that's been stabilized, you can disguise it as any number of parts, into a capacitor, into a chip. We were taught at the CIA how to take high explosives and make it into a loaf of bread.

It's very easy to do. And a cursory inspection of one of these ICOM radios or a pager, you wouldn't see anything. You would really have to take it apart and examine each piece, and especially since, in Lebanon, so much of the electronics are knockoffs. They weren't originally made by the company.

And, by the way, ICOM radios were being used by Hezbollah back in the '80s. So the Israelis would have known how to get into that distribution network, rig those phones, and using coded instructions, set them off. They know exactly what they're doing.

But this is old technology. ACOSTA: Right. I mean, it sort of reminds me of the old stories of

the exploding cigars in Fidel Castro and all of that.

But, Bob, can you tell us, can you give us some insights into how -- I mean, how is it that pagers and walkie-talkies are still being used?

BAER: Well, the walkie-talkies are low-power communications, which are very difficult to track or to -- and if you're using coded conversations, they're fairly secure.

And that's what Hezbollah has been doing all these years. And they don't put anything sensitive over these radios. And they're harder to track than cell phones. Cell phones are very easy to track, any cell phone. And Hezbollah knows this, learned this the hard way, even burner phones.

So -- and then, on the pagers, were probably is what I have seen are one way, so they only receive, they don't transmit. So there's no way for the Israelis to hit them with drones or missiles because they're not transmitting.

So this is a makeshift communications, which has proved disastrous, obviously, for Hezbollah.

ACOSTA: And just one more quick question the sort of nuts and bolts of this. I mean, how did they get them all to go off in this fashion? Did you -- do you need an operative in the vicinity of these devices, or is a pulse signal sent out of some sort?

I mean, how do you explain that? Do you know? Yes.

BAER: It's a coded signal, which they can just send out on the same radio waves that will set these off simultaneously. That's not hard either. Once -- and that's the security, these codes. Otherwise, they don't go off.

But to transmit this from an airplane or a helicopter would be very easy.

[11:05:03]

ACOSTA: And "The Times" is also reporting that shell companies played a key role in this operation, saying -- quote -- "By all appearances, BAC Consulting was a Hungary-based company that was under contract to produce the devices on behalf of a Taiwanese company, Gold Apollo.

"In fact, it was part of an Israeli front, according to three intelligence officers briefed on the operation. They said at least two other shell companies were created as well to mask the real identities of the people creating the pagers, Israeli intelligence officers."

And I guess, Bob, that goes to what you were saying a few moments ago. A lot of these devices are sold on maybe not the black market, but they're sold and where you're not really getting these devices from the original builders or creators of these devices, a lot of knockoffs, that kind of thing. BAER: Yes, exactly. ICOMs are made in Japan.

And, clearly, the Israelis did not get into that factory and put the explosives in. But what they do is that somebody at knockoff prices will make these things in Eastern Europe. And it's just a matter of getting a distributor in Lebanon to sell them to Hezbollah, because -- and don't forget, part of Hezbollah, there's a criminal element to it.

So introducing this stuff, the Israelis would have known who to go to, who's making money. It's just a very -- it's a failed state Lebanon. So it's a lot easier to introduce this stuff.

ACOSTA: Yes. Fascinating.

All right, Bob Baer, thanks for answering those questions. We had a lot of those questions about the nuts and bolts of this. Really appreciate it. Thanks so much.

And, in the meantime, we are learning new details this morning about Iran's efforts to interfere with the upcoming U.S. election. Federal officials say Iranian hackers stole information from Donald Trump's presidential campaign over the summer and sent it to people associated with the Biden campaign. The officials say there is no indication that Biden's team ever replied to any of those attempts.

Trump last night claimed without any evidence that Biden was involved in the attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (R) AND CURRENT U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: But, no, Iran hacked into my campaign. I don't know what the hell they found. I'd like to find out. Couldn't have been too exciting.

But they gave it to the Biden campaign. I can't believe it. Oh, yes, I can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: CNN senior justice correspondent Evan Perez joins me now. Evan, I mean, help us reality-check this. I mean, what's the latest on this?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Oh, my lord, reality, right?

ACOSTA: Yes.

PEREZ: So what we know is that the FBI says that some of this information which was stolen from the Trump campaign, these were internal documents, and the hackers, who were working for the Iranian government, sent them to people associated with what was then the Biden campaign that it included excerpts from internal documents, non- public documents. Now, it appears that none -- nobody who received this actually replied

to the e-mails, so we don't know whether they even, like, looked at it and were able to see it. What we have heard from the Kamala Harris campaign, of course, which has inherited a lot of the infrastructure from the Biden campaign, they say that what happened was the e-mails came into the inboxes, private -- the personal e-mails of people who were associated with the former campaign.

ACOSTA: Gmail accounts, that kind of thing.

PEREZ: The Gmail accounts, right, exactly, not their campaign accounts, and that it looked like spam or phishing, so these people didn't do anything with it, and so that might have been one reason why this really didn't go very far.

But from the Iranian standpoint, look, what they're trying to do is undermine faith in our systems and confidence in the elections. And one way to do that is to try to pit people like this, so have Donald Trump out there saying that essentially the other campaign was spying on him, which is one of the terms he's using.

And, of course, none of that is true, but they have accomplished what they wanted to do, which is to sort of sow some discord ahead of the presidential election. It's all part of the game.

ACOSTA: Inject this story into the news cycle right before the election.

There are echoes of 2016 and what the Russians were up to.

PEREZ: Right, exactly. That's exactly what the playbook, which the Russians did so successfully.

And, look, one of the things we know is that this is still an FBI investigation. We know, Jim, that the FBI has a pretty good idea of who was behind the hack and leak campaign. Keep in mind, some of these documents also were shared with news organizations, which have not published those documents.

But we anticipate in the coming days we're going to hear from the Justice Department about who they think were -- was behind this hack and leak campaign, because obviously it's something that they want to deal with now, before the election, which is, by the way, a contrast.

You will remember in 2016 the FBI knew a lot about what the Russians were doing, but didn't say anything publicly until after the election, which is now how everyone has learned their lessons.

ACOSTA: That's right. Yes, we didn't find out for weeks, months...

PEREZ: Months, correct.

ACOSTA: ... a lot of the details.

PEREZ: Right.

ACOSTA: All right, Evan Perez, thank you very much. We really appreciate it.

And joining us now to talk about this, Democratic Congressman Dean Phillips of Minnesota. He serves on the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

[11:10:04]

Congressman, the Trump campaign claims that Iran hacked that information because they Vice President Kamala Harris to win. Iran has denied this. Your response to all of this?

REP. DEAN PHILLIPS (D-MN): Well, first of all, it's true. In fact, moments after this interview, I'm heading back to the Foreign Affairs hearing room for a hearing on Iran, one of our foremost adversaries.

Since 1979, we have done little to affect that and done too much to appease it. And the fact is, Jim, we have got Russia ostensibly supporting the Trump campaign,it looks like Iran now trying to feed information to the Biden campaign. It's all a coordinated effort.

And I think we should reflect on what George Washington warned us about in 1796 in his farewell address, foreign interference. It's happening right now. And we better wake up to it. I think it's appalling that Donald Trump would even infer that the Biden campaign had something to do with it.

That is exactly, it's exactly what the Iranians want. They're probably celebrating that stupidity right now.

ACOSTA: And, Congressman, we all lived through the 2016 election, when Russia hacked Hillary Clinton campaign manager's e-mail account.

I mean, do you think that, because we now know those details all too well from that campaign, that the federal government, federal investigators, the intelligence community is better equipped to handle all of this time around?

As Evan Perez was saying a few moments ago, they sort of already know who might be behind this or understand a lot about this.

PHILLIPS: Well, Jim, the truth is, no, we're not well-equipped.

And technologies are advancing faster than the human capacity to accommodate them. That's what Alvin Toffler argued in "Future Shock" about 50 years ago. It's challenging. Yes, do we have the best security and intelligence apparatus in the entire world? Indeed, we do.

But nobody, and I mean nobody, is in a position to completely defend against cyberattacks, against hacking. And that's the truth. And I think we have to wake up to the realities that our adversaries who cannot defeat us with bombs and missiles will try to defeat us by turning Americans against each other.

And I think that's the moral of the story, Jim, is if Democrats and Republicans are going to take the bait and start condemning one another, that is the only way they can defeat us. And I think that's the question that we should be considering right now.

ACOSTA: Yes, a quick -- and a quick reaction from you, Congressman, I could, on these device explosions in Lebanon.

How should the Biden administration respond to that, do you think?

PHILLIPS: Well, first of all, I think it's clear that Israel had to reassert a deterrence, if you will, after October 7.

They were perceived as soft and weak. I think it's an indication to their enemies that we can find you anywhere, we can attack you any day, and I suspect Israel might have more up their sleeves.

But we also can't let Benjamin Netanyahu deflect from the fact that we need a cease-fire. And another truth, Jim, is that, whether it's Gary, Indiana, or Gaza, when people live without hope, when they live in fear and misery, they will act in ways that we're seeing play out both in our own country and around the world.

And it is my hope and expectation that we recognize the human condition, that the Biden administration and hopefully the Harris administration beginning in January starts investing in peace, a Marshall Plan of sorts for the Middle East to ensure that freedom reigns around the world, in the spirit of John Kennedy.

If any of us are not free, none of us can be. And that, I think, is -- should be the mantra for our policy in the Middle East moving forward, because we are at the precipice of horrifying expansions of the conflict that would include more countries and more death. And I think we have a responsibility as Americans to start investing in peace and prosperity and share more of it.

I think that's the only way forward.

ACOSTA: And, Congressman, what about the prospect of a government shutdown? Are we going to see a government shutdown? It sounds like House Republicans are back at square one after Speaker Johnson's proposal failed yesterday.

It sounds as though the former President Donald Trump is sort of telling -- he's delivering the talking points to House Republicans as to what they should do next. What do you think?

PHILLIPS: Well, I will tell you, Jim, I remember the last time I sat down with Donald Trump in the White House was during a shutdown in 2019.

I was among a small group that had a proposition to end the shutdown. At that point, he shut down the government because he wanted more money for his border wall. He likes playing this game. I think it's embarrassing. I think it's destructive.

And, frankly, I'm only in my third term in Congress. The fact that this is happening once again is a very sad reflection many of us here in Congress. I think Speaker Johnson is doing what he has to do to appease his far right.

The fact of the matter to everybody watching is, we will pass a C.R., a continuing resolution, probably at the end of next week to ensure the government stays open until December. And then you will be interviewing people just like me in a few months asking the same question.

We have got to do better. We got to solve problems and send people to this place with common sense, integrity and competency, because we're failing right now.

[11:15:05]

ACOSTA: It's no way to run a railroad.

All right, yes, Congressman Phillips, as always, thanks for your time. We appreciate it.

PHILLIPS: Thank you, Jim. Appreciate it.

ACOSTA: All right. Thank you.

Still ahead this hour: After days of bomb threat, school closings, grocery store evacuations, officials in Springfield, Ohio, are pleading with Donald Trump to stop spreading falsehoods about Haitian immigrants.

Coming up, CNN speaks with the very people who feel their lives are now at risk just for going to work.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VILBRUN DORSAINVIL, COLLEGE STUDENT: There's a lot of love in this society. You know, all I'm asking is, give us a chance, OK?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:20:20]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I'm going to go there in the next two weeks. I'm going to Springfield and I'm going to Aurora.

(CHEERING)

(APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: You may never see me again, but that's OK. Got to do what I got to do. What ever happened to Trump? Well, he never got out of Springfield.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: That was former President Donald Trump saying he will visit Springfield, Ohio, soon.

The city's mayor just issued a proclamation granting the mayor temporary emergency powers as threats linked to Trump's false claims about Haitian immigrants continue to disrupt daily life there.

CNN's Omar Jimenez just spent some time in Springfield. Omar, this initial rumor snowballed into an emergency situation in Springfield. And I know you have been spending some time on the ground there talking to people. How are they doing?

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I want to be clear.

The tensions that we have seen in Springfield, they started well before the presidential debate. But then, of course, once it was the quote about eating cats and dogs, that put things into an entirely new gear that we have sort of seen unravel over the course of this.

Again, we have not found any evidence, and city officials have told us the same, of any Haitians eating cats and dogs or anything of that nature. But it's gotten to the point where we have seen, at least initially believed, bomb threats coming to schools and that sort of things.

And while the governor has said that those were essentially hoax threats coming from overseas, they have had a very real effect on the ground here, with some now questioning whether they want to send their children to school. Some in the Haitian community that I spoke to worried that some of the rumors, some of the talk, some of what's spread on social media will translate to real safety concerns for them.

And then, as you mentioned before you came to me, the mayor of Springfield, Ohio, just today, issued a proclamation granting him temporary emergency powers as threats linked to some of those unverified claims continue to essentially disrupt daily life for residents.

ACOSTA: Yes.

JIMENEZ: So, with all of what's gone on, on online, it has had some very real effects on daily life in Springfield.

ACOSTA: Yes, and, Omar, I mean, Trump has said that the migrant population there is living -- that they're living there in Springfield illegally.

We know that that's not the case. That's not true. J.D. Vance last night was saying that they're -- quote -- "illegal aliens." We know that's not true. Help us sort through the facts. What are the facts here?

JIMENEZ: Well, and the city of Springfield has gone so far as to literally create a frequently asked questions page on their Web site knowing that a lot of the residents are having these same questions.

So, yes, they are legal immigrants at this point, many of them coming in through parole programs, but also being granted temporary protected status as well, as you know, Haitians are under through at least 2026.

As you see on your screen here, this is an estimation, at least from city numbers, of the amount of total immigrants in Clark County, which includes Springfield, and the majority of which are believed to be Haitian at this point. And then there were also questions about whether these migrants had created or helped create a spike in crime.

We did see numbers slightly raised between 2021 and 2023, like what we saw across much of the country. But I want you to take a listen to the public safety director there, who laid out what they believe is the real public safety issue that they're trying to focus on right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDY WILSON, DIRECTOR, OHIO DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY: The number one issue we have in the public safety space with the Haitians is not crime. It's not violence. It's the driving. That's the public safety issue.

So what we want to do is we want to get driver's education to that population.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: And we did hear that from folks on the ground who had concerns about the amount of traffic accidents, even potential language barriers in working with some law enforcement and language barriers with working with those in the schools.

So, as I mentioned, there are some real tensions and real things to work out as this population has seen a large influx of Haitian Americans -- or of Haitians over the past few years, Jim.

ACOSTA: Yes.

And, Omar, I'm curious as to what you heard from the Haitian migrants who were there in that community, what they have to say.

JIMENEZ: Well, a big question I think many have is, why are there so many Haitians in Springfield?

And one recurring thing that we heard from all of them was not that they were forced to come here, not that they needed to come here, but that they heard Springfield was a good place to live, that the cost of living was lower, that there were job opportunities, things of that nature.

And one man we spoke to, he came because he left Haiti, but then his brother already lived in Springfield. So it made sense for him once he was in the United States and was granted temporary protected status to go to where his brother was.

[11:25:02]

There's Vilbrun Dorsainvil on your screen there who I spoke to. Take a listen to some of what he told me while I was there. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DORSAINVIL: We are making the society better. For example, I work in a hospital. I can take an example on myself, because I work in a hospital. I have a lot of patients.

I help them to get better, OK? I work in the rehab facility, working with them, OK, helping them with exercises to get back on their feet. So we are helping the society. We are contributing in the society.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: And he's very proud of that.

And I should mention too that he told me he was a doctor back in Haiti, but had to give up his certification because it didn't carry over in the United States.

ACOSTA: Wow.

JIMENEZ: So he's studying to be a registered nurse and then hopes to get that degree and then potentially apply for a green card to get some of the family he left behind back here in the United States.

So, a lot of real factors, Jim, mixed with a lot of rumors and social media, and that's created what we have been seeing in Springfield.

ACOSTA: Yes, but the stories that you're hearing, Omar, from people on the ground like that gentleman just there, people are coming here and they're willing to come and work hard and try to make a new life for themselves.

I mean, it is really the American dream and why so many immigrants come to this country.

Omar Jimenez, thank you so much. Really appreciate that. Great reporting, as always.

Coming up: Oprah Winfrey is hitting the campaign trail for Vice President Kamala Harris, joining her tonight in a critical battleground state where polls show an incredibly tight race.

That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:30:00]