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Experts: Musk's $1M Giveaways To Registered Voters Could Be Illegal; 1 Million Plus Early Votes Already Cast In North Carolina; Texas Death Row Inmate Set To Testify Before Lawmakers. Aired 11- 11:30a ET

Aired October 21, 2024 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[11:00:34]

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour here in the CNN Newsroom, I'm Erica Hill in for Pamela Brown, closing arguments with 15 days now until the election, it is a neck and neck sprint to the finish line, and both campaigns hitting battleground states today.

This hour, Vice President Kamala Harris will hold an event in Pennsylvania with former Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney. We're going to bring that to you live. And former President Donald Trump making multiple stops across the state of North Carolina, first up the Asheville area, which was devastated by Hurricane Helene. His visit comes after a wild weekend of headlines.

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DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: This is fun. I could do this all day. I wouldn't mind this job.

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HILL: Trump making a photo op visit there to McDonald's in Pennsylvania on Sunday, where he worked the fry machine and also continued to push claims, without evidence, that Harris never worked at the burger chain. Donald Trump's message to voters this weekend was a little short on policy, but long on vulgarity.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: But Arnold Palmer was old man. When he took showers with the other pros, they came out of there they said, oh my God.

You have to tell Kamala Harris that you've had enough that you just can't take it anymore. We can't stand you. Your -- Vice President.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Harris, responding to that attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And what you see in my opponent, a former president of the United States, really is it -- it -- it demeans the office. And -- and I have said, and I'm very clear about this, Donald Trump should never again stand behind the seal of the president of United States. He has not earned the right. He has not earned the right. And that's why he's going to lose.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: A crucial battleground state in this presidential election is Michigan. More than a million people have already cast their absentee ballots -- cast their ballots in early voting in that state. Our first guest is overseeing that election and battling the growing misinformation surrounding it. Michigan's Democratic Secretary of State, Jocelyn Benson, with me now. Nice to have you here with us. But there was a -- there's a lot going on, on the Twitter, or X, as it's now known, between you and Elon Musk over the weekend. So I just want to tell the folks at home, this is going to take me a minute, but I think it's important that we lay all of this out for our viewers.

So you were firing back at him after he questioned the integrity of your voter roles and said that there were more voters than citizens in the state. You posted, let's be clear, Elon Musk is spreading dangerous disinformation. Then you went on to break down the numbers showing that he's pushing this misleading number, which includes 1.2 million inactive records slated for removal in accordance with the law, ending with don't feed the trolls.

Musk then fired back writing, shame on you, blatantly lying to the public, saying you only plan to remove those ineligible -- ineligible voters after the elections, and that's why he says there are far more people registered to vote than there are eligible voters. We can't forget, of course, that Elon Musk now owns X with some 200 million followers.

The fact that all of this is playing out, and he is continuing to push this disinformation, how concerning is that to you ahead of the election?

JOCELYN BENSON (D-MI), SECRETARY OF STATE: It's very concerning, in -- in part, because, you know, this is a significant platform, and gosh, I wish that folks with such large platforms such as his would use it to spread accurate information about our elections. I understand the nuances and the challenges of doing that, but if you have enough time to Google me and look up my middle name, which he clearly did, you should be able to find out the facts of our elections and post those as well.

In my view, I'm going to just keep working to make sure citizens know that our elections are secure, that we I.D. every voter, that we vote on paper ballots, and that we have many layers in place to ensure our results will be accurate.

HILL: You've noted that you believe there are foreign bad actors trying to undermine confidence in the election, to your point of -- of finding the facts, like, can you elaborate on that? What specifically, what are you seeing? Is what I should say.

BENSON: Well -- well, I think it's important to note that this is really the election of all the ones I've seen, where you have foreign adversaries in Russia, in Iran and in China, with a very clear incentive, the -- the outcome of this presidential election directly affects a lot of their domestic affairs. And so given that, we should not be surprised that intelligence suggests we have potential for foreign interference.

And when it comes, it won't necessarily come through attacking the hardware of our system, because things like our machines and the like are very secure, it will come through trying to confuse citizens and create chaos in an effort to disengage and to divide and to deceive folks about the integrity of our process and the validity of their vote.

[11:05:08]

In this though, the truth continues to be on our side. What we really need are all American citizens to be critical consumers of information in this moment help us break through the noise and ensure facts rule the day.

HILL: So how do you deal with then say, actors at home, right? You have Elon Musk over the weekend or in recent campaign events bringing back these debunked claims when it comes to certain voting machines, when that -- when that is out there, how do you debunk that?

BENSON: Well, again, it comes back to the strength of the citizens to know the truth and to know where to get accurate sources of information. We've set up a website in Michigan, michigan.gov/electionfacts. That's where we actually take on an address with facts and the law every conspiracy theory out there so that people can know the truth.

In every state, there are election officials who serve as those trusted voices at the state and local level. And I really encourage citizens to get your facts and information about elections from those professionals who don't have a political agenda that they're pushing, as opposed to individuals who very duly clearly have an agenda and don't have citizens' best interest or the truth in mind.

HILL: The -- the former president and a number of his supporters have been working since the last election, effectively laying a groundwork, saying, in many cases, if -- if Donald Trump doesn't win, then this election was somehow rigged. There's now a nonpartisan poll by PRI which shows that one in five Republicans want Donald Trump to say the election is invalid if, in fact, he loses. How have you been preparing for that moment in Michigan?

BENSON: Well, first, I -- again, I think it's important for everyone to remember that candidates do not get to choose who wins elections, voters do. And our job as election officials will be made -- be able to make sure that no matter who the citizens of our states support and vote for, that that's who ultimately rules the day. And so candidates, and -- and this particular candidate has a track record of saying a lot of things that turn out to be inaccurate, so I would again encourage citizens to know that the votes of citizens determine who wins elections, and call on every leader in this country to stand by the will of the people, whatever it may be, even if you disagree with it.

HILL: Real quickly, the conversation has been looked, don't expect to know who won the election on Election Day, but you have said that your state will have everything certified ready to go the day after November 6th. Do you still stand by that?

BENSON: We are on track, based on our hard working election officials and machines and voters to make sure that unofficial results in our state will be ready by the close of day on Wednesday. It's the same time they were available after the 2020 election. So we predict the same could unfold again, but we'll be there to make sure accuracy and security is prioritized over efficiency, and from the minute the polls close, until we have those unofficial results, we'll make sure the public knows exactly where we are in the process and why.

HILL: Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson, good to have you with us this morning. Thank you.

BENSON: Thanks for having me.

HILL: While Elon Musk also drawing scrutiny after promising to give away $1 million every day through the election to register voters in battleground states, there's just one problem with Musk's initiative. Experts say it could actually be illegal. The billionaire making that announcement, of course over the weekend at a Trump campaign event in Pennsylvania, and there's been a lot of pushback ever since, because according to federal law, it's a crime for anyone who pays or offers to pay or accepts payment, either for registration to vote or for voting.

CNN contributor, Derek Muller, joining me now. He's a law professor at the University of Notre Dame and also an election law expert. OK, so Derek, is this move by Elon Musk, so he's saying, I'm giving away $1 million a day. All you have to do is basically sign this petition in support of my Super PAC and, oh, by the way, only people in these very important battleground states are eligible. Is this legal?

DEREK MULLER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, ELECTION LAW EXPERT: That's been the debate all weekend. On the one hand, you can say he's just paying people to essentially, they're entering a lottery. He's going to give one winner a day, $1 million if you sign a petition, I support the First Amendment. I support the Second Amendment. That's all it is.

But on the flip side, that -- that contest is not only open only to those in those swing states, it's only open to those who are registered voters. And so is this an inducement to get people to vote? Is this an incentive to get them to vote? And if that's the case, then it looks like the $1 million a day, the lottery, is being geared toward people who are voting or who are registering to vote, and therefore that's the -- that's the thing that the federal law is concerned about paying people to register to vote. So that's what the debates been about. HILL: So as you noted, there's been this debate all weekend. Do you anticipate seeing any action on this? And -- and what would that involve? I mean, would this involve Attorney General Merrick Garland, because we're talking about federal election laws?

MULLER: So it could be, right? On the one hand, the Department of Justice can step in and say, this is the kind of conduct we think would breach this law. They could issue those sorts of orders. But that's dicey, right? Do -- do you want to be doing that in the weeks ahead of an election? Usually, these are the kinds of things the Department of Justice is going to investigate. They can bring an indictment sometime after the election if they think that there's a problem with it.

[11:10:03]

So it's usually something that a criminal investigation would lay out, rather than the Department of Justice getting out ahead of it. At the same time, I -- I imagine Musk's legal team is looking at this saying, wondering, should we restructure this or we're in safe ground. So it'd be interesting to know what their legal counsel is giving them advice to think about.

HILL: In -- investigations don't always move very quickly, so we have two weeks now until -- until the election. So is there any precedent here in terms of enforcement, in terms of reaching out and maybe saying to Elon Musk and or his legal team, hey, you may want to be careful.

MULLER: Yes. So I -- I -- I'm not familiar with precedents like that. Usually, when we're thinking about these kinds of cases, there are instances where somebody is giving $1 or $5 some of these cases going back to the 1970s, you know, giving you a small amount of money to register to vote. And there are people who observe it. There's an investigation that happens. It can take months. It can take years before they bring those charges.

But to come out ahead of it and provide that guidance, right, especially if Musk's team is saying, this is legal, we're just signing petitions. We're not registering people to vote. You're putting the Department of Justice injecting itself into a hotly contested, disputed case of interpretation of a criminal law just weeks ahead of the election, which is --

HILL: Yes.

MULLER: -- I don't think where the Department of Justice wants to find itself.

HILL: No. I don't think they've enjoyed that in the past. Real quickly before I let you go, for these two people who have now accepted these checks for $1 million, if something after the fact was found to be untoward, right, or perhaps breaking a law here, would they still get to keep the cash?

MULLER: Probably not. Sometimes we talk about restitution, or there's sort of the disgorgement that happens for those who have wrongfully taken money in these circumstances. Again, in some of the other cases, we've talked about $1 or $5 so maybe there would be this -- this risk at the back end that there's going to be some kind of disgorgement of the ill-gotten gains.

But again, it's -- it's -- we're sort of an uncharted territory. Usually it's not $1 million that people are giving away in these cases.

HILL: Yes.

MULLER: So -- so it's a kind of a wait and see if that's the case.

HILL: Yes. A lot of zeros. Big difference there. Derek, really appreciate it. Thank you.

MULLER: Thanks for having me.

HILL: Still to come this hour, former President Trump touching down in Asheville just moments ago. A lot of folks there, of course, still getting back on their feet after Hurricane Helene. Donald Trump won North Carolina by a razor thin margin in 2020. So where does he stand today? Stay with us. That's ahead. You're live in the CNN Newsroom.

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[11:17:01]

HILL: This morning, Donald Trump arriving just moments ago in North Carolina, where more than a million votes have already been cast. Next hour, he's going to make his case to voters in storm ravaged Swannanoa. That's a western North Carolina, of course, as you see on the map there, that area still reeling from Hurricane Helene, trying to recover.

Donald Trump won this key battleground, say, by less than 75,000 votes in 2020. Fifteen days out from the 2024 election, he and Vice President Kamala Harris are virtually neck and neck in that state. For a closer look, our good friend, Harry Enten, CNN senior data reporter is back. So Harry, when we look at this in terms of North Carolina, in terms of the race, what does it tell us?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: I feel like I just saw you Erica Hill. Maybe my mind is going, I don't know. But this time around, we'll take a little look at the Tar Heel State. All right, let's take a look at some of the polling out of the Tar Heel State. Look, it's close. It's close. You can find polls that have a tie, two of them. You can find a poll that has Harris up three. Maybe you prefer Donald Trump. We got you a little bit over here, Trump plus three.

But the bottom line is, it's close. It is close in the Tar Heel State. Now, what I think is so important about the fact that the Tar Heel State is so close, is this is much more of a must win for Donald Trump than it is for Kamala Harris. Because of Kamala Harris wins in the great state of North Carolina, she has a 91 percent chance of winning the election, not quite certain, but closer to certainty than it is for Donald Trump.

Donald Trump, if he wins in the great state of North Carolina, only has an 81 percent chance of winning the election. What essentially that means is, is that North Carolina is much more of a pillar to Donald Trump's map -- map to 270 electoral votes than it is for Kamala Harris. Now, why might that be? Well, you are hinting at it at the top, which is if you look over the past few election cycles in North Carolina, you see a lot more red on the screen than you see blue.

The only Democrat, in fact, to win it since 1980 was Barack Obama back in 2008. He won it by well less than a point. Romney won it by two. Trump won it by four in 2016. But last time around, you see this margin tighter, tighter, tighter. And I think that is part of the reason why Democrats think they have an opportunity this time around, because if they can move the ball just a little bit, then all of a sudden you got Kamala Harris winning in the great state of North Carolina, Erica.

HILL: And that is one of the reasons why we're spending so much time looking at North Carolina and these other battleground states that we know could really determine the election this time around. Harry, where does the -- where does it stand for both candidates when we look at that path to 270?

ENTEN: How close it is, how close it is, how close it is. All right, so let's say this is the road to 270 electoral votes. Let's say we're going to give each of the candidates the states that they're leading it in the polling average, except for the states that are within a point. What happens? Well, Donald Trump has a slight advantage, but he's only at 246 electoral votes. Kamala Harris is at 226.

Ergo, neither of the candidates are anywhere close to 270. Why? Look at all these yellow states up on the Great Lakes, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, of course, North Carolina, also in yellow here, Nevada, out on the west, also in yellow. But here's the thing, we have a tight race right now. But of course, we know the polling averages haven't necessarily been too hot to trot the last few election cycles.

[11:20:13]

So what happens if we have the polls off like they were in 2020 when they underestimated Donald Trump? Well, Trump gets to 312 electoral votes. He carries all of these states up here. He wins in North Carolina. He wins in Nevada. But here's the thing, Erica Hill, I know everyone saying all the polls are going to be off just like they were in 2016, 2020 and Trump's going to win.

But keep in mind, in 2022, the polls actually underestimated the Democrats in the race for Congress, right? So if the polls are off like they were in 2022 what happens? Well, Kamala Harris wins all of the Great Lake battleground states. She wins in North Carolina. She actually flips Georgia, she flips Arizona, and she gets Nevada, and she gets the 319 electoral votes.

So the bottom line is this, North Carolina is tight. This electoral map is tight, and if you have any idea who's going to win this election, I would love if you told me, because you could make my job a lot easier and I could sleep a lot better at night. And my girlfriend can tell you, I definitely need the rest.

HILL: You know, that same person that would probably offer to sell you a bridge, Harry, so I don't know that I would put so much stock in it. I say that as your friend, because I care.

ENTEN: I -- I -- I mean, I appreciate you and as your friend, I will also say, you know, I might just buy that bridge.

HILL: Harry, thank you.

ENTEN: Thank you.

HILL: Still to come this hour, on a much more serious note, he was convicted of killing his two-year-old daughter, sentenced to death. Now, a group of lawmakers, though, believe that Robert Roberson is innocent, and they are fighting for him to make his case today. Just ahead, I'll speak with one of the Texas officials taking an unusual step to buy him more time.

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[11:26:28]

HILL: His life spared at the 11th hour. Now, Texas death row inmate Robert Roberson is set to testify before lawmakers today about why his conviction is unlawful. A State House Committee subpoenaed Roberson last week, eventually leading to a partial stay of execution just about 90 minutes before his death warrant expired. It is still unclear whether he'll testify in person today or virtually.

Roberson was found guilty for the death of his two-year-old daughter more than 20 years ago. His attorneys say the Shaken Baby Syndrome diagnosis at the time was wrong, and that the new evidence proves it. CNN's Ed Lavandera has been following this story for us and joins us from the Capitol Building in Austin, Texas. So, Ed, there's a lot of question about whether Roberson will be there in person or not. What are you hearing?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we are an hour and a half away from when Robert Roberson is scheduled to testify here before this House Committee that is investigating the medical evidence in his conviction. But it is not clear whether or not this testimony will happen virtually or in person, or if it will even happen at all.

It is a three and a half hour drive from the death row prison unit where Robert Roberson is housed here to the State Capitol. We have no indication yet. Obviously this is not something that they would announce in terms of travel coordination with a -- a death row inmate bringing them to the Capitol.

But beyond that, we are getting no indication that in an hour and a half, a death row inmate will be showing up here at the Texas capitol to testify before this House Committee. And on top of that, Erica, we know that over the weekend, the Texas Attorney General has intervened and has essentially told the House Committee that they will not provide Robert Roberson to testify in person, that it will be they've offered to have him do it virtually.

But lawmakers on this Committee and Roberson's own lawyers have insisted since this subpoena was last -- it was first issued last week that they want Roberson to appear in person. We spoke with the lawyer for Roberson late last night, who said that the -- the -- their hands are essentially tied, that the -- the AG has intervened here, and they are trying to work through all of that.

Publicly, officials with the -- the -- the House Committee are saying that they fully expect Roberson to -- to appear here. But an hour and a half away, no indication that that's actually going to happen, Erica.

HILL: Yes, a lot of questions about that. Meantime, Ed, outside, I know there have been reports that there will be some protesters outside the capitol building. Have you seen any of that so far today?

LAVANDERA: Well, we are two -- two floors underground here in the -- in the committee hearing area where this is supposed to happen. This morning, when I was outside on the grounds of the Capitol, I didn't see much activity. But here you can see how quiet it is behind me. We're just outside the room where this committee hearing is scheduled to take place. But so far, so quiet.

And, you know, that's obviously one of the -- the -- the big issues here. The Attorney General has said, you know, this is a -- a public safety issue as well. But Roberson's lawyers and -- and -- and other officials have pushed back on that, saying that Robert Roberson is not a threat to -- to anyone, that he -- he has an exemplary record in the prison and this -- this should not be a public safety issue. They want Roberson to testify so that the committee and the public can assess that -- his demeanor and assess his credibility for themselves.

HILL: Ed, really appreciate it. We'll continue to check in with you, of course, throughout the day. Thank you.

Joining us now, Texas State Representative Jeff Leach, who's on the House Committee, holding today's hearing and actually have to introduce that subpoena to get Roberson to testify. Sir, it's good to have you with us this hour. I'd love to pick up, I hope that you could hear my colleague, Ed Lavandera there, talking about, which we know that the Attorney General had said. Well, you know he can -- he can testify virtually. No indication at this point he'll be there in person. Do you know yet whether he will be there in person?

[11:30:08]

REP. JEFF LEACH (R-TX): Well, good morning. It's good --