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Report: Trump Wanted 'Kind of Generals Hitler Had'; Interview With Rep. Madeleine Dean (D-PA). Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired October 23, 2024 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: All right, 13 days until the election without a minute or a vote to waste, and we're just hours away from a critical moment in this neck-and-neck race.

Vice President Kamala Harris will be in Pennsylvania for a CNN town hall tonight at 9:00 Eastern. She will be live taking questions from undecided voters in this state that could decide it all.

Former President Donald Trump, meanwhile, is heading to another battleground state, Georgia. He will hold a rally tonight in the Atlanta suburbs.

Good morning. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington.

But we begin this hour with Donald Trump's campaign adamantly denying an explosive report about him, "The Atlantic" magazine citing two sources claiming to have heard the 45th president say during private White House conversations that he wanted the kind of generals that Hitler had.

Trump's former Chief of Staff retired Marine Corps General John Kelly confirms the report. Kelly also told "The New York Times" that he has heard Trump praise Adolf Hitler. Trump is facing growing criticism for his extreme rhetoric against immigrants and political rivals, with some saying his language is reminiscent of dictators.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (R) AND CURRENT U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We pledge to you that we will root out the communists, Marxists, fascists, and the radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country.

Now, a murderer, I believe this, it's in their genes. And we got a lot of bad genes in our country right now.

They're poisoning the blood of our country. That's what they have done. They poisoned -- mental institutions and prisons all over the world.

They're ruining our country. And it's true. They're destroying the blood of our country. That's what they're doing. They're destroying our country. They don't like it when I said that. And I never read "Mein Kampf." They said, oh, Hitler said that in a much different way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Joining us now is the Indian military analyst retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. He's a former U.S. Army commanding general for Europe and the Seventh Army.

General Hertling, always good to talk to you. We don't typically talk about campaign politics, but how remarkable is the statement from General Kelly, retired four-star general, secretary of homeland security, White House chief of staff? How much stock do you put in his warning about Donald Trump?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: First of all, Jim, I will say, yes, we don't talk about politics much. I don't like to talk about politics because I'm the military analyst.

But I do know John Kelly. And I know him to be a man of integrity and honor. We served together in combat in Iraq in 2007 and '8. He was in the Western area of Iraq. I was in the northern area of Iraq. And we conducted some operations together.

So the announcements yesterday and his audio recording for "The New York Times" were somewhat striking. It is interesting that he would wait until now to say these kinds of things. There have been indications that these kind of things went on over the past several years within the -- Mr. Trump's White House.

But it was fascinating to me some of the details that he gave. And, by the way, listening to John on those tapes, you could tell he was pained by telling some of these stories. This is not something that a military man, someone who wears the cloth of the country for so many years, enjoys talking about.

ACOSTA: Right.

HERTLING: They expect more of their leaders. And it really pained him to answer the questions of the "New York Time" reporter. So that's all part of the things we have to take into consideration on this.

ACOSTA: Yes. And General Kelly, I mean, he says to "The New York Times," as you said, that Trump falls into the general definition of a fascist.

And just recently, and we could put this up on screen about General Milley, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Mark Milley, described Trump as -- quote -- "fascist to the core and the most dangerous person to the country." He said this to Bob Woodward for his book "War."

And, General Hertling, I just want to ask you this because when you have General Kelly, when you have a General Milley, and I think you touched on this a little bit in your earlier comments, it is not at all normal. It is not at all something that you typically see when you have generals, I mean, as high-ranking as you can get, making these kinds of statements about a president of the United States and somebody who could become president.

I think doesn't that speak to the seriousness of the situation?

HERTLING: Well, it does, Jim.

But I'd also say, I have watched the media over the last several months and different cable channels, different newspapers. And there have been many civilians who have said, we need the generals that were in the administrations to come out and speak.

[11:05:00]

And I will go back to what I said a minute ago. The generals don't like to do this, because they know it influences civilian-military affairs. They don't like to tell people who to vote for.

ACOSTA: Right.

HERTLING: They like to apply the rule of law to their to their military duties. And they expect to be connected to leaders who do the same.

So these kind of interviews, not formal announcements, but the kind of interviews that break the story -- and, interestingly enough, when I heard the description, as you just said about John Kelly talking about fascists, what I think the reporter did was read the definition, and then John Kelly said, yes, that kind of fits.

ACOSTA: Right.

HERTLING: So that's about as adamant as he's likely going to get, but it's still -- there's still a hesitation in speaking outwardly about that, because that's not what generals do.

ACOSTA: And, General Hertling, I apologize, I don't have a lot of time, but I did want to ask you about Trump making these comments about the -- quote -- "enemy from within."

Despite the criticism that he's received for making these kinds of comments, he doubled down over the weekend. He has suggested that he might use the military or the National Guard against -- quote -- "enemies from within."

I asked Colonel Cedric Leighton about this last week. If you are a general, you're over at the Pentagon, or you're a governor in charge of a National Guard, a commandant in charge of the National Guard, and you get an order from a President Trump telling you to send soldiers out to round up Americans, to go after Democrats up on the Hill, what do you do?

HERTLING: Well, legally, for the National Guard, the president has to either mobilize them officially and put them under federal law at that point. He can ask a governor to deploy their own National Guard or suggest

that the governor does it. But, truthfully, the National Guard, if it's not under federal command, still relies on the governor's order. The governor is the commander in chief of the Guard.

The thing that was a little bit more problematic was when Mr. Trump talked about mobilizing the active -- even the active-duty military...

ACOSTA: Right.

HERTLING: ... I think he said in the statement.

That's a little more contentious, because active-duty military are under the rule of Posse Comitatus, unless the Insurrection Act is called. If an Insurrection Act is called by the president and the Guard and the military is deployed, there is no more Posse Comitatus.

They can do what the president orders them to do. And in that case, that brings on a whole other range of discussion and is somewhat dangerous, especially...

(CROSSTALK)

ACOSTA: I was just going to say, can a general say no? Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

HERTLING: Yes, I'm sorry.

ACOSTA: No, I'm sorry. I meant to ask, General -- talking about generals here. I hate to cut off a general, but can a general say no?

HERTLING: A general must say no if it's an illegal order. So if the Insurrection Act has not been called and the active military is told to go someplace and confront American citizens, that is an illegal order.

So, a general can say no as part of the active service, because of the legality of the order. In fact, it is our duty to disobey illegal orders.

ACOSTA: All right, General Hertling, thank you so much. Always good to talk to you. Appreciate it.

HERTLING: Thank you.

ACOSTA: Joining us now is Republican strategist and former RNC communications director Doug Heye.

Doug, you and I have had lots of conversations over the years. Here we are 13 days before the election, and I'm talking to General Hertling about potential President Trump ordering the military to go after American citizens.

I know you speak on behalf of Republican causes and candidates and so on from time to time. Does any of this give you pause, General Kelly making these comments, General Milley making these comments, Donald Trump's own words?

DOUG HEYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, Jim, I have had pause for eight years now.

ACOSTA: Yes, right.

HEYE: And this is the latest example. And the rhetoric is shocking, but also not surprising.

And that's why I think the political impacts on this are going to be very limited. I go back eight years and about two weeks ago. It was a Friday afternoon. I was in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, and this tape came out called "Access Hollywood." And everything that we knew about politics said that race was over.

And, in fact, I said that on the record to "The Wall Street Journal." The next morning, I was in Raleigh at a political event for Richard Burr, my former boss, and I realized this race is not over. And we're in that same situation right now.

Voters have so made up their minds on Donald Trump. They have factored all of this in. This is the latest, and it is shocking and terrible language, and I believe it. But this is the latest Donald Trump outrage du jour. His voters aren't going to pay attention to it. And those undecided voters still want to hear from Kamala Harris tonight with Anderson, what are you going to do as president?

That's going to be the decider in this election if she's able to make that case,not something Donald Trump has said or done.

[11:10:01]

ACOSTA: And why is that? Why does this not damage Trump's chances, revelations that Trump has said that he wish he had Hitler's generals, and John Kelly saying he meets the definition of a fascist? I mean, here we have Mike Pence: "It should come as no surprise that I will not be endorsing Donald Trump this year."

And the list goes on and on, Mark Esper, the former defense secretary, General Milley, "Trump is fascist of the core." Taken together, this does not resonate?

HEYE: If you look at that list, it's very damning, but Trump hasn't been damned on this by certainly the Republican base.

So let's compare it to Joe Biden, right? Joe Biden had a bad debate, we all know it, and his Democratic supporters were knifing him, off the record, sometimes on the record. Donald Trump has loyal support. You had the senator from Tennessee on earlier. He's behind him 100 percent.

So he has that base of support, and you have other voters who just, they factored this in because there have been so many deal-breakers for Donald Trump that haven't broken the deal.

ACOSTA: And the Trump campaign is sharply denying all of this. They're putting out statements from people like Mark Meadows and Kash Patel, who are very much in the Trump orbit. We're not exactly getting somebody who's sort of independent on all of this.

HEYE: I met Mark Meadows the night before he was sworn in as a member of Congress.

ACOSTA: Yes.

HEYE: I wouldn't say that he's been festooned with honesty or dignity. There's the story of him getting on his knees in front of John Boehner and literally begging for forgiveness.

So I can discount anything that Mark Meadows says. The Trump loyalists are going to back Donald Trump. That's sort of their job. But, again, I go to those voters who were undecided at this point. They know what they think about Donald Trump, and they're saying, Kamala Harris, tell me who you are and what you're going to do.

ACOSTA: And, Doug, I mean, you also have, I think, your finger on the pulse of those wavering Republicans, those centrist Republicans, moderate Republicans, who may decide to vote against Donald Trump ultimately. What does Kamala Harris need to say to those voters? Should she be talking about what General Kelly and General Milley are saying, or should she be talking about more meat and potato bread-and- butter issues?

HEYE: She should be talking about what their concerns are, and that's about the economy. That's about prices.

So I watched the debate with Liz Cheney the other day, and Harris didn't get into specifics on what voters are saying very loudly, this is what we need to hear from you. And if she continues that, she loses.

ACOSTA: And this is -- I mean, this is the statement on the reporting in "The Atlantic" from Mark Meadows. I do want to read this, just out of a sense of fairness here.

"Any suggestion that President Trump disparaged Ms. Guillen or refused to pay for her funeral expenses is absolutely false." That is the statement about the other piece of the "Atlantic" reporting that Trump, at one point, said in regards to this soldier who was bludgeoned to death down in Texas that he didn't want to pay that kind of a money, $60,000, I believe it was, for an effing Mexican, I believe, is how it's described in "The Atlantic."

HEYE: And here's why that doesn't have an impact.

ACOSTA: Yes.

HEYE: This isn't the first awful statement Donald Trump has said about immigrants. This is the 3,000th. And if the 2,999 haven't cut him, he's not going to be cut by this one either.

ACOSTA: All right, Doug Heye, thank you very much.

HEYE: Thank you.

ACOSTA: Always appreciate it.

Still ahead this hour, it is said there's no such thing as an undecided voter this close to an election, but there are unmotivated voters. Vice President Harris will try to change that at tonight's CNN town hall in Pennsylvania.

I will ask a congresswoman from there what Harris must say to light a fire under some of those unmotivated voters. That is coming up next.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:17:59]

ACOSTA: All right, as we were saying, just 13 days now until the election, not much time left, but maybe enough time to sway some voters who are still on the fence.

Tonight, Vice President Kamala Harris will try to close the deal in Pennsylvania at the CNN town hall.

One of the state's representatives in Congress in Washington joins me now, Congresswoman Madeleine Dean, a Democrat who serves on The Foreign affairs and Judiciary committees.

Congresswoman, thanks, as always, for being with us.

I mean, is there one thing, if you were to lead with, for Vice President Harris tonight, what would that one issue be? What would that one message be for the vice president tonight?

REP. MADELEINE DEAN (D-PA): That our children's future is on the line, the future of this democracy. And will their future be one that is bright, that is one of greater freedoms, greater justice, allegiance to oath by their elected officials, or will it be something that is quite dark?

You have just recited some of the extraordinary things that the ex- president and nominee is saying about this country, the dark vision that he has of this country and those of us who are in it. The contrast could not be greater.

And it's not simply a rejection of the darkness and corruption of Mr. Trump. We have something so great to run on. The experience, the service of Kamala Harris and Tim Walz is, to me, extremely exciting and future-thinking.

ACOSTA: And, Congresswoman, I don't have to tell you that the vice president has some work to do with union members.

I want to read you what one UAW leader in your state said to CNN. We're going to put it up on screen. It says: "Let's be real, a huge number of our unionized members are going to vote for Trump. The national Dems have a real problem with messaging to regular working people. You can give all the policy speeches you want. Nobody's listening."

That is a -- that person is not missing words there. But is there some truth to that?

DEAN: Well, I was with a union launch this weekend in Philadelphia, the sheet metal workers. And it was robust.

[11:20:05]

Folks want to go out to the doors and put literature out for Harris/Walz, as well as Bob Casey and me and everybody else on the Democratic side of the ticket.

But I talked to the labor leaders there and also yesterday at a PGW event. They are working on education for their members. A tremendous number of union members are already on board, but those who aren't are being educated that actually take a look at what Donald Trump has said about unions.

If you read into Project 2025, around page 600, he talks about really basically busting unions, canceling overtime pay, as he boasts of not taxing overtime. He doesn't tax it in his concept of a plan, because he would not allow it. He would not allow for overtime.

So he is not pro-union. He would harm union workers. We have to do more to do everything we can to educate them and harness the amazing number of union workers who get it. Harris/Walz is the most pro-union ticket ever.

ACOSTA: And the vice president has made abortion access a key part of her strategy. She already leads on that issue. She does not lead in the polls for her economic plans or immigration policy.

But abortion has -- reproductive rights has been an area where she is obviously leading in the polls. What is your sense of how that issue is resonating in Pennsylvania right now? Is it perhaps a factor that maybe the polls aren't taking into account enough, that perhaps the narratives that you hear in the news media aren't taking into account enough?

DEAN: Well, I have to tell you, I think there's an awful lot in the polls that is not being counted.

I was just at Jenkintown High School and a 17-year-old male student came up to me and said: "I'm so glad that you are leaning in on the issue of Dobbs and that you will promise to bring Roe back and codify women's rights." He said, "Like my girlfriend, she should have those rights."

Seventeen-year-olds are getting it. Now, he's not able to vote until next year. But it tells me there's a tremendous number of men and women, young men, young women, who get this and are probably not reflected in the polls. What Donald Trump has done as a result of the Dobbs decision has sent

women and girls into second-class status. I have three daughters-in- law and three granddaughters. We're not going to tolerate this. I think the vote will reflect that. I'd ask you to take a look at Bucks County. We have Ashley Ehasz running there. And choice is a huge part of it, because Mr. Fitzpatrick has voted against women's reproductive choice.

I think it's going to be a big part of this election.

ACOSTA: And I do have to ask you, Congresswoman, about what President Biden said yesterday. He raised some eyebrows with some comments out on the campaign trail as it relates to former President Trump. Let's listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We got to lock him up, politically lock him up.

(APPLAUSE)

BIDEN: Lock him out. That's what we have to do. And so, look, you all know how this works. Every single vote counts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Congresswoman, the president said "Lock him up" as it relates to Donald Trump and then added "politically, and said, "Lock him out."

Obviously, it sounds like a slip of the tongue, but is that helpful to have the president out there saying that sort of thing right now, especially with all of the conversations about Trump's rhetoric?

DEAN: I don't know if it's helpful, but it is a fact of life. He is a convicted felon. So, sadly, a punishment will fit that. We won't learn that punishment for some time now.

But I think much more important is what you just reported on. These generals really literally against what they would normally ever do in terms of talking about the leader of the free world, because of their firsthand experience, they are almost making 911 calls to the electorate to say, this is too dangerous. What Donald Trump is capable of and has said and has done in the past will only be worse.

He talked in his first and last inaugural address about the American carnage. Sadly, that was a foreshadowing of his presidency. And so I'm much more impressed by these patriots who were Republicans who wanted nothing more than for Donald Trump to succeed who are saying, don't let him anywhere near the White House. He is a fascist to his core.

ACOSTA: It sounds like, though, you wish President Biden hadn't said that.

DEAN: You know what? I'm not going to -- I -- literally, that was the first I'd heard it. ACOSTA: OK.

DEAN: So I will take a look at it in context. I'm not commenting on that.

ACOSTA: All right, Congresswoman Madeleine Dean, thank you so much for your time. We appreciate it.

DEAN: Thank you. Take care, Jim.

ACOSTA: All right, you as well.

And don't miss the CNN special event. In the final sprint to Election Day, Vice President Harris faces voters, takes their most pressing questions. That is live tonight with Anderson Cooper as he moderates a CNN presidential town hall.

[11:25:08]

That is tonight at 9:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN.

Still ahead this hour: Death row inmate Robert Roberson was scheduled to testify at the Texas State Capitol this week, but he was a no-show. I will speak with his attorney about the unprecedented efforts to buy him some more time.

That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)