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Harris Pushes Message Trump "Unfit To Serve"; Justice Department Warns Musk Super PAC Against Voter Registration Sweepstakes; Blinken: Expects Ceasefire Negotiations To Resume Soon; Putin: Middle East On Brink Of Full Scale War; Ukraine: North Korean Troops In Russia's Region. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired October 24, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:38]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: It's 8:00 p.m. in London, 4:00 a.m. in Pyongyang, 3:00 p.m. here in Washington.

I'm Jim Sciutto. Thanks for joining me today on CNN NEWSROOM. And let's get right to the news.

In the coming hours, major stars will light up battleground Georgia in support of Vice President Kamala Harris. This after the Democratic nominee took tough questions at last nights CNN presidential town hall, a room full of Pennsylvania voters who described themselves as undecided or persuadable put the spotlight on the vice president's policy agenda, topics range from security issues at the southern border to the rising cost of living here in the U.S. Some commentators who watch, to them, Harris did not offer enough details of her proposals.

One of the biggest moments from the night when CNN's Anderson Cooper asked Harris about the allegation from Trump's former chief of staff, retired Marine General John Kelly, that the former president admires fascists and has fascist tendencies.

Harris gave this blunt response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN MODERATOR: Do you think Donald Trump is a fascist?

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes, I do. Yes I do.

They also care about our democracy and not having a president United States who admires dictators and as a fascist.

He's going to sit there unstable, unhinged, plotting his revenge, plotting his retribution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Well, here's a live look at the vice president's rally today in Clarkston, Georgia. Former President Barack Obama will later take the stage for his first joint appearance with Harris on the campaign trail.

Joining us now to discuss, CNN's Zachary Wolf in D.C. live.

So let's begin if we can with the takeaways from the town hall last night, both Anderson, our colleague, and audience members, pressed Harris on a number of issues, including particularly border security. So -- so how did the vice president answer those questions?

ZACHARY WOLF, CNN POLITICS SENIOR WRITER: Not directly. She was asked a couple of times about her previous Anderson Cooper asked her about previously when she said that Donald Trump's proposal for a border wall was stupid, but now she supports a compromise bill that would include money for that border wall. You know, she didn't have a ready sir, on this issue and it was kind of surprising since it's such a top of mind issue for so many voters.

On the other hand, I thought that the way she answered more generally, without specifics, about we need to get beyond the sniping, the political sniping. She had a message of bipartisanship. We need to just fix the problem. I think that's the kind of thing that could resonate.

So it was both a little surprising that she didn't have more specifics, but also probably thematically exactly the kind of thing that a lot of more moderate voters would want to hear.

SCIUTTO: Do you think Zachary that was the plan last night was to focus on those messages as opposed to giving a sort of menu of policy proposals?

WOLF: Yeah. I mean, you know, just generally in her campaign has not included a menu of policy proposals. So I think it would have been surprising for her to offer one last night, although she does have plans for opportunity economies, plans for ways to help with the child tax credit to help first-time homeowners. She does have plans out there, but those aren't -- she doesn't really get into the details of those things.

It would have been kind of a strange thing for her to get into tax policy and start talking about on how small business owners who make over $400,000, you're going to be able to deal with overhead and their tax returns.

So I think there's also a little bit of an unrealistic expectation amongst people to both give specifics, but then people get bored by details, I think.

SCIUTTO: Zachary Wolf, bored by details -- well, yeah, we've seen that before. Thanks so much.

But while Harris prepares for a star-studded night in Georgia, Donald Trump, he is taking his campaign out west. Starting in a couple of hours, former president will speak to voters in Arizona. Later, he's going to travel to Nevada for a second rally in Las Vegas. Trump is already on the attack following last night's CNN town hall. Of course, last night was originally supposed to be a debate between Harris and Trump -- Trump refused that invitation. Now he is attacking Harris is intelligence as he has before, calling her, quote, an empty vessel.

[15:05:01]

CNN's Kristen Holmes is tracking in the Republican nomination joins us now from Washington, D.C.

Kristen, as you know, last night, when asked Harris said she does consider Trump a fascist. How is Trump? And his supporters responding

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, you know, Donald Trump, he is going to continue just to lash out Kamala Harris and not answer any questions about this. We do have our embed on the trail with Donald Trump with the hope that she can pose the question about what his exact reaction is to those remarks. But so far all he has said is that it was a poor performance.

When it comes to his supporters, nothing is going to change his bases mine particularly any rhetoric coming from Democrats. They have all been cast aside Democrats and anything that they say. Now we do know that Democrats are using the remarks from John Kelly in ads. John Kelly, of course, calling him a fascist as well, saying he has fascist tendencies, in ads trying to reach possibly those moderate independent voters.

But overall, Donald Trump's team doesn't feel like this is something that's going to hurt him in the long run, we have heard previous aides, previous advisers, come forward and say that he has said these kinds of things that he is a fascist and it has not hurt him in any way, or at least in any substantial way.

So right now, they are not afraid that these kind of comments are going to hurt his campaign.

SCIUTTO: I mean, we know so far, right, I suppose we know in 12 days.

HOLMES: Right.

SCIUTTO: Trump's says, and this is quite new that if he wins this election, he will fire the special counsel, Jack Smith, quote, within two seconds. What are those comments? And, by the way, I think to be expected given what he said prior about this investigation, what are they telling us about how he intends to use the office of the presidency if he is reelected?

HOLMES: Well, Jim, just to be clear, we're not really sure he actually could fire Jack Smith. In fact, we don't think he could because Jack Smith was an independent appointed entity by the by the attorney general.

Now, what he could do is hire his own attorney general but, of course, he would do who then could cast aside all of these cases, dismissed all of these cases against which we have long expected that he would do. I mean, this is part of Donald Trump's plan overall. Two things to keep in mind, it's not just the cases, its also just the entirety of the Department of Justice.

One of the things that Donald Trump has wanted to do if he is elected did again, is to essentially put everything under the power of the executive, giving enormous power to the executive branch. And therefore, the presidency in one of the brand -- or one of the parts of the government that would fall under that is the Department of Justice.

While, technically, it is under the executive branch, it is often and long operated as a separate entity to stay away from the presidency, to kind have its own separation of powers there, Donald Trump wanted to bring that underneath the executive branch anyway. On top of that, we have long reported that part of the strategy here was to delay these cases, to be past the election so that he could get those cases dropped because he would have his own attorney general in place he would be in control of the Department of Justice.

So it's unsurprising, but this is the first time he's actually saying on the record that that is something that he is wanting to do.

SCIUTTO: And, listen, the delay tactics, the worked on multiple fronts.

HOLMES: Yeah.

SCIUTTO: And he had a little help from several judges --

HOLMES: Yeah.

SCIUTTO: -- involved in these cases. Kristen Holmes, thanks so much.

HOLMES: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Well, as we mentioned, only 12 days until election day, more than 20 million Americans, in fact, have already cast their ballots in early voting.

So where does it all stand?

Joining us now, Republican strategist Doug Heye and former special assistant to President Biden, Meghan Hays.

Good to have you both on.

DOUG HEYE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: So first I want to begin with. Harris's message last night regarding Trump and her saying that she does believe as several of Trump's own foreign advisers, former advisers, we should say have said that he has fascist tendencies. Is she?

And, Meghan, I might begin with you if its okay, is she balancing that message? Because it's clear that part of a closing weeks message is going to be and stick with Trump being a danger. Is she balancing that message, which is an important one, if she believes that to be true with kitchen table issues such as affordability, such as immigration? Is she getting that balance right?

MEGHAN HAYS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. I mean, I think she has to get this balance right. I think people still want to know more about her. It's only 90-some days that she's been on the campaign. So I think people want to get to know more about her, about her policies. I think last night at the town hall, she accomplished a lot of that, but also I think she's still continuing to draw that contrast message. And what kind of leader she will be and what kind of president she will be?

And I think that these comments come out when Trump's entire national security team is saying that they don't think he should be present, that he is a danger. I think that it's important to highlight those comments, so she is trying to walk a balance here and I think she's doing a good job thus far.

SCIUTTO: To Meghan's point, Doug Heye, it is a fact that several of Trump's former senior advisers, and it's not just John Kelly. It's Mark Milley, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, which John Bolton, I mean, it does own vice president who will not endorse him as well as others.

Part of this is being highlighted one, just to say, hey, lot of the guys closest advisers don't trust him, but its also going after Republican voters to try to peel off some of them to vote for her.

[15:10:10]

And I wonder, do you find and based on the folks in the campaigns you talk to that, that strategy has legs?

HEYE: By and large, no, and I think that's because we see a dichotomy both between what's being talked about in Washington, D.C. and New York City. And the rest of the country, but also the top of the ticket on the Democratic side and what we call the down-ballot races.

You have a lot of really strong Senate campaigns, Democratic Senate campaigns are incumbent senators who are talking about the issues their voters are talking about. So, they're talking about jobs and the economy, the border. Ruben Gallego's campaign is almost solely focused on the border in Arizona.

They're talking about Social Security reform. They're not talking about this issue because its not what their voters are talking about. And I think for Harris, that's clearly they've made the decision that this is going to be their closing message. They're not going to have a speech at the same spot where Donald Trump spoke on January 6 and not have it be about this but there's also missing an opportunity here and that's, you know, at this point in the campaign, we should all know what Kamala Harris's first 100 days are going to look like, but we don't because she repeatedly declines to tell us of what that is. She may talk about an economic issue here or there, but she doesn't get into too many specifics, really any specifics here are the three things I'm going to do. And we don't hear that a lot from Kamala Harris and it's why voters still have those questions about her. SCIUTTO: So, Meghan, to that point, Harris has promised to bring in what she calls a new generation of leadership. This an answer to a question about whether her presidency could be seen as really just a continuation of the Biden presidency. I want to play how she answered that and get your thoughts on the other side. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: -- not be a continuation of the Biden administration. I bring to this role my own ideas and my own experience. I represent a new generation of leadership on a number of issues and believe that we have to actually take new approaches.

COOPER: Some voters though might ask, you've been in the White House for four years. You were vice president, not the president. But why wasn't any of that done for the last four years?

HARRIS: Well, there was a lot that was done, but there's more to do, Anderson. And I'm pointing out things that need to be done that haven't been done, but need to be done and I'm not going to shy away from saying, hey these are still problems that we need to fix.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: So, Meghan Hays, has she in your view, put enough meat on that bone, right? As to here are the things that still need to be done?

HAYS: I think she is -- she's taking steps to say that she's talking about -- making more -- housing more affordable. She's talking about health care. She's talking about cost cutting and price gouging by large corporations.

So I do think she is putting meat on the bone. Could she say more? Of course, you could. Everyone could say more. Donald Trump's had zero about his policy plans, but we all think that's okay, too.

So I think, you know, there's always more room for more substance here, but I do think she has to walk the fine line like we were just talking about. But I do think that saying she is a new generation.

She's a -- she's a younger leader is she comes at it from a different experience. She had different experience in life experiences. She grew up middle-class.

I just -- these are all things that are important to the American people because they want to see that she understands them and she understands where there going through and I think that that is incumbent on her in the last couple of weeks that this election to make folks see that is who she is and she's willing to fight for them.

SCIUTTO: Doug, I mean, to Meghan's point there, Trump could have accepted the invitation to debate on the stage alongside Kamala Harris and put meat on the bone of his own policy proposals. He did not. Why didn't he, in your view? And is there in your view, something of a double standard? Because

Donald Trump will throw a lot of things out there and say, I'm going to cut this tax year that no description of how he's going to pay for it all, right? He's just sort of like throwing -- you know, throwing paper towels to the audience, if you remember that scene in Puerto Rico a few years while he was president.

Why wasn't he there on the stage to make that case?

HEYE: Well, I think he -- he should have been. But the reason that he didn't is one, he feels at a pretty good place for where the election is right now. And if we go back to the debate against Joe Biden, we know that it was a terrible night for Joe Biden because we all saw that before Biden even spoke. It was such a bad night for Biden that we sort of lost sight of the fact that Donald Trump is pretty erratic, not really on top of things. Trump won that debate because Biden was so bad.

Harris came out and had a good debate. She did some of the things that she needed to do namely demonstrate that I can stand toe-to-toe with Donald Trump, and thus foreign leaders, you know, a Putin or President Xi, or some people, people like that. But she hasn't then done that second part that she needs to do.

Donald Trump does get judged by a different standard and that's unfair. But it's also reality and you can't campaign in the world you want to be in. You have the campaign and the campaign that you're in. And that's the problem that Harris has right now.

SCIUTTO: Okay. Speed round before we go.

Meghan, you go first.

[15:15:00]

Where does this race stand now? And what do you watch in particular to answer that question? Is there a piece of data or kind of data you look at? Meghan first, then Doug.

HAYS: I think we are still neck and neck and I think you start to watch where these were the early vote numbers are going, but I do think you need to be watching Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan because I don't think that there is any way for either candidate to win without Pennsylvania. So I think you need to watch where those -- how those people are trending in the polling in those states.

SCIUTTO: Doug Heye?

HEYE: Jim, I'd still rather be the Trump campaign than the Harris campaign today. That may change ten times in the next ten days, but I'm also looking at the down-ballot races. Are we seeing shift in state Senate races in Pennsylvania, especially, that'll tell us, here's where the ground is shifting? That isn't necessarily about Harris versus Trump, but will tell us a lot about both of their campaigns.

SCIUTTO: Doug Heye and Meghan Hays, I'm sure ill ask you that question again before Election Day. Thanks so much for joining.

HEYE: Thank you.

HAYS: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Coming up, a warning for Elon Musk. Still ahead, a letter the Justice Departments sent to Musk's super PAC. We're going to take a look at exactly what it means for the presidential campaign, if anything.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: The Justice Department has now warned that Elon Musk's super PAC that it could be violating election laws. The warning in response to Musk giving away $1 million a day, that sweepstakes open only to registered voters in swing states who signed his petition. We should be clear, election laws prohibit offering incentives, including cash or prizes to induce voter registration. Musk's group did not announce a daily winner yesterday.

Joining me now from Washington, CNN's Marshall Cohen.

Marshall, I wonder -- is the letter all the Justice Department is doing or does it investigate this further?

MARSHALL COHEN, CNN REPORTER: Great question, Jim. Look, so far, the part of this that we do know about because we can talk about the known "knowns" here, they have sent the warning to Elon Musk's super PAC.

[15:20:05]

It's a pretty substantial step, Jim, considering that the super PAC only announced this giveaway over the weekend.

And then in pretty short order within just a couple of days, according to what we've heard, the Justice Department sent that warning letter. The news broke of that letter yesterday, and coincidentally, maybe yes, maybe not, the super PAC did not announce a winner yesterday for there daily sweepstakes.

Look, they perhaps are retooling the sweepstakes or maybe they had some technical challenges. Maybe they'll announce two winners today. They have not offered any public explanation at this point, but the series of facts are that this letter -- news of the letter broke yesterday and then they went quiet on their lottery, no more winners have been announced since we learned about the DOJ warning.

SCIUTTO: Interesting. OK. So, what about those who already won the money? Do they face any potential legal issues? Will they have to give the money back?

COHEN: Some of the experts I spoke to said that technically, theoretically, Jim, they could have some exposure because federal law makes it a crime to offer or accept money in exchange for registration. But that's way down the road. At this point, it appears that the goal of the Justice Department, federal law enforcement, is to stop the sweepstakes if they can, because it very well may be an unlawful attempt to influence the election process.

SCIUTTO: Marshall Cohen, thanks so much for following.

Well, still ahead, the top U.S. diplomat wrapping up a Middle East tour with meetings now in Qatar. The latest efforts still ongoing to secure a ceasefire and hostage deal in Gaza. Is there any progress? We're going to take a look next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:25:13]

SCIUTTO: U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken has now left Qatar. This after meeting with his Qatari counterpart earlier today. Blinken says he does expect negotiators to meet once again in the coming days to discuss a ceasefire and hostage deal in Gaza.

Yet, the fighting continues there. The Israeli military says it was targeting Hamas when it struck a school in central Gaza.

Joining me now from the State Department is Kylie Atwood. Also with me is Jeremy Diamond in Tel Aviv.

Kylie, I want to start with you. We have discussed these negotiations for -- well, goodness almost a year since the October 7 attacks. And while there was one major hostage exchange, there's been months of negotiations that have gone nowhere.

Do we know if there's any concrete progress now following his trip to the region?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN U.S. SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, the most measurable concrete progress that we know about is the fact that there are going to be follow-on conversations to the secretary of state's visit to Israel, and then to Doha in the last few days. He said that in the coming days, there will be these meetings between the negotiators. We haven't seen these types of meetings happen for months now.

We know according to reporting from our colleague, Alex Marquardt, that CIA director Bill Burns will be at these meetings in Doha over the weekend, also Israel's top intel chief is going to be there. So that is significant in terms of trying to, you know, restart conversations.

However, when it comes to the meat of the matter, what they're actually going to be able to get into, that is still a bit of a question mark because on one hand and you've heard the secretary of state say that the Israelis were open to some new frameworks to try and secure the release of the hostages who are still being held by Hamas even after, of course, Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar's death just in the last week or so.

They're open to a new framework to try and get there. What that framework actually looks like. We really don't know yet and so that remains a question. And then we also don't know how effectively Hamas is going to actually engage in these future talks.

The Qatari foreign minister when he was standing with secretary of state today, said that it's unclear exactly how much Hamas is, you know, going to engage, going forth here. It's noteworthy that Qatari officials have been in touch with leaders from Hamas in recent days. So there's a level of engagement there, but whether or not there's actually a decision-maker after the death of Yahya Sinwar remains an open question.

So the U.S. trying to push the ball forward create some momentum to prove that this is a moment of opportunity to drive forth an end to the conflict in Gaza. But it's unclear if that's actually going to be the result that we see over the court course the next few weeks. And, of course, the U.S. presidential election, looming large over all of this.

SCIUTTO: Yeah, got to see results to know.

So, of course, Israeli military operations continue in Gaza, quite deadly ones as we saw in the last 24 hours.

But, Jeremy, you have a new story about -- well, the shocking IDF use of human shields in its operations there, with his phrase mosquito protocol. Can you explain to us exactly what that is and what you found in your reporting?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, a report is based on an interview with an Israeli soldier who not only witnessed but participated in the practice in Gaza, as well as five Palestinian civilians who say that they were detained and used as human shields by the Israeli military. And when were talking about this, were talking about Israeli soldiers taking Palestinian civilians and telling them to go into potentially booby-trapped houses and tunnels ahead of them effectively, a decision showing that the lives of these Palestinians were deemed less important than those of the Israeli soldiers behind them.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DIAMOND (voice-over): They walk through the rubble at gunpoint, into potentially booby-trapped buildings and down dark and tunnels some were teenagers like 17-year-old Muhammad (ph).

MUHAMMAD: I was handcuffed and wearing nothing but my boxers.

DIAMOND: Others like Abu Al-Yasin (ph) were grandparents.

ABU AL-YASIN: They placed me in areas where I could be exposed to gunfire.

DIAMOND: These five Palestinians, all civilians, say the Israeli military detain them and use them as human shields in Gaza.

PALESTINIAN: We were forced to enter homes. Each time, our lives were a risk. We feared death. We were afraid something might happen. They would ask us to do things like, move this carpet, saying they were looking for tunnels.

DIAMOND: Now, for the first time on camera, an Israeli soldier is coming forward with his own account, describing how his infantry unit used two Palestinian as human shields.

[15:30:04]

ISRAELI SOLDIER: We told them to enter the building before us. If there are any booby traps, they will explode and not us.

DIAMOND: We've blurred his face and change his voice because he risks reprisals for speaking out. Breaking the silence, a watchdog group which verifies soldiers' testimonials provided photographs and facilitated the interview. The soldier says, a 16-year-old boy and 20- year-old man were brought to his unit this spring.

ISRAELI SOLDIER: Their hands were tied behind their back and they had a cloth over their eyes.

DIAMOND: The instructions from the intelligence officer who delivered them were clear.

ISRAELI SOLDIER: He told me to take them in the next attack, use them as a human shield. He told me that they have a connection to Hamas.

DIAMOND: For two days, his unit followed those orders.

This haunting photo captures the scene, the silhouette of a Palestinian man flanked by two soldiers, ordering him forward.

ISRAELI SOLDIER: When we went to the attack, before they enter a building, we took the cloth up so they could see in my company, one of the soldiers knew Arabic, you just shouted in Arabic, opened the door and walked through this building or the other.

DIAMOND: You're using them because you think this building might be booby traps?

ISRAELI SOLDIER: Yes. My soldiers didn't' like that at all and they refuse to do this anymore.

DIAMOND: The soldiers decided to take their concerns to their senior commander, telling him they believe they were violating international law.

ISRAELI SOLDIER: The commander, though this fellow, a simple soldier doesn't need to think about international law.

DIAMOND: He didn't say, you guys shouldn't be doing this. This shouldn't be happening.

ISRAELI SOLDIER: He said that we need to do this. He said that our lives are more important.

DIAMOND: So he didn't just tell you, don't worry about it. He said, keep doing it. ISRAELI SOLDIER: Yes. Yes.

DIAMOND: Eventually, the commander relented telling his soldiers they could release the two Palestinians.

Suddenly, you're allowed to release.

ISRAELI SOLDIER: Yeah, it made it sure to us that they are not terrorists.

DIAMOND: In a statement, the Israeli military said the IDF's directives and guidelines strictly prohibit the use of detained Gaza civilians for military operations. The relevant protocols and instructions are routinely clarified to soldiers in the field during the conflict.

But the Israeli military's use of human shields in Gaza appears to have been widespread. So common it even had a name, mosquito protocol.

Both Israeli and international law banned the use of civilians in combat. Israel also accuses Hamas of using civilians as human shields. There is ample evidence for it, tunnels dug beneath homes and rockets fired from residential neighborhoods.

ISRAELI SOLDIER: For me, it's more painful with my own army. Hamas is a terrorist organization. The IDF shouldn't use terrorist organization practices.

DIAMOND: And so when you hear, you know, spokespeople for the Israeli military, Israeli government official saying, you know, the Israeli military is the most moral army in the world.

ISRAELI SOLDIER: That's bull (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Of course, I don't believe that.

DIAMOND: Dr. Yahya Al Kayali (ph), who worked at Al Shifa Hospital, knows that all too well, months after he says Israeli soldiers forced him to risk his life. He cannot shake this terrifying experience.

DR. YAHYA AL KAYALI, PALESTINIAN: A soldier asked me to come. He was talking to English, told me, I will kill you if you didn't enter there. I was thinking, but I will be killed or die within minutes.

DIAMOND: His brush with death, and the day he feared he would never again see his family.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DIAMOND: And, Jim, you'll note, of course, that the Israeli military in its statement, while it said that its protocols don't allow for these kinds of practices. It also didn't deny the existence of this happening in Gaza. And, of course, we should note that this is just one of a long list of alleged war crimes that have been raised against Israeli soldiers in Gaza -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: So, Jeremy, is the Israeli military investigating this allegation? I mean, if it says it meets the standards of international law, but it's not as you say denying that this took place and you have the testimony of an Israeli soldier, I imagine investigation is warranted.

DIAMOND: You know, Jim, the statement that we presented in the story was the entirety of the statement that the Israeli military provided to us. I was frankly quite surprised by the brevity of the statement that they didn't say more about this practice or about plans to investigate it. We have heard them say that in the past as it relates to the wrongdoing of soldiers in Gaza who have burned homes, who have graffitied things, who have stolen property from civilians in Gaza.

But what we're reporting on here seems to be something far more widespread and it's not just our reporting. There has also been similar reporting in "Haaretz", an Israeli newspaper here, and "The New York Times" as well and the fact that this procedure has a name "mosquito protocol", it does speak to something far more widespread and something that was not just the actions of individual soldiers, but rather something that was being directed by more senior commanders in the field -- Jim.

[15:35:03]

SCIUTTO: And quite a statement from that soldier when you asked him, you know, what do you think of those who described these Israeli military as the most moral or the one that follows international law, most closely. And he used -- well, his word -- B.S.

Jeremy Diamond, thanks so much.

Ukraine now says it has seen North Korean soldiers in Russian territory right near the Ukrainian border. Western allies are worried they could soon play a fighting role in the part, on the part of Russia's ongoing invasion. Our report from the Pentagon is coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Russian President Vladimir Putin issued a stark warning on the final day of the BRICS summit in Kazakhstan, that fighting in the Middle East could soon tip into all war. In an address, the Russian leader called for a swift end to the violence in Israel, Gaza, and Lebanon.

The U.N. secretary general was also on hand at the summit Thursday. Here's what he told the leaders of the BRICS countries, BRICS, by the way originates from the names of Brazil, India, and China -- what he told BRICS leaders about war and peace.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONIO GUTERRES, U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL: We need peace in Gaza with an immediate ceasefire.

We need peace in Lebanon with an immediate cessation of hostilities moving to the full implementation of U.N. Security Council Resolution 1701. We need peace in Ukraine. A just peace in line with U.N. charter,

international law and general assembly resolutions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: I should say, BRICS actually stands for Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa. The BRICS+ group, which has brought in other countries now represents some 45 percent of the world's population. This first meeting of that wider group is a significant win for Vladimir Putin.

[15:35:02]

CNN's Clare Sebastian explains.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CLARE SEBASTIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, for Russia, this photo is a win, a clear signal to the West that it has failed to isolate Russia, and that Russia is now at the center of a group representing around 45 percent of the world's population that can challenge U.S. dominance.

Well, Putin is flanked by the leaders of the world's two most populous countries, China and India, both helping prop up Russia's war by buying large quantities of its oil and gas.

Now, Iran over here hasn't even more direct role in Russia's war, initially sending attack drones now the U.S. says, ballistic missiles to Russia.

This is not a family without complications. India, for example, has a defense and security partnership with the U.S. and has urged Russia to accelerate peace efforts in Ukraine. Egypt receives over $1 billion a year in U.S. military aid and the UAE hosts a U.S. military base on its territory. And two of these countries, Brazil and South Africa, are members of the International Criminal Court, so Putin can't visit them without risking arrest.

Well, the nuances that may complicate efforts to find consensus and grow this family.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Our thanks to Clare Sebastian for that report.

Ukraine says that it has now spotted North Korean forces near its ongoing military operations inside Russia's Kursk region. Ukraine has maintained a strong foothold in that area of Russia, just across the border from Ukraine, since it went in, in August.

Kyiv's military intelligence service says that roughly 12,000 North Korean soldiers are now receiving training at a military training ground in eastern Russia.

CNN Pentagon correspondent Oren Liebermann joins us now for more on this developing story. So we're seeing them training inside Russia at a Russian base. We're seeing them now in the Kursk region, which is right on the Ukrainian border. And we've seen huge shipments of North Korean weapons to Russia.

Does the Pentagon believe that North Korean forces are going to take on a combat role inside Ukraine?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: The Pentagon and the White House in fact, as well, are also are being very careful here and how they describe what North Korean troops will be doing now that they've entered Russia.

There's also a bit of a discrepancy between the Ukrainian numbers and the U.S. numbers. Ukraine says more than 10,000. The U.S. says they've seen 3,000 North Korean troops go into Russia to several different training grounds.

But the U.S. not saying that they're -- that they're definitely to fight on behalf of Russia against Ukraine. They've said that's certainly a possibility and that would be a very troubling possibility because of what it signifies.

As you pointed out, Jim, North Korea has already provided Russia with artillery ammunition and more, but this is obviously a much further step than that, providing actual bodies, essentially that might be used by Russia and by President Vladimir Putin to feed his war machine. That's something the U.S. is looking at very closely to see if it happens. Again, the U.S. hasn't gone quite as far as Ukraine or even South Korea for that matter, in terms of saying what the North Korean troops are doing there.

From the U.S.'s perspective, it also could signal weakness on the part of Putin. It means that the 1,200 casualties that the U.S. says Russia is suffering each day, that is killed and wounded, is something that he essentially may need other countries, other partners and allies to help him backfill there as the war grinds on. So the U.S. this is looking at that possibility as well.

One of the key questions here is what is North Korea getting in return? Is there a quid pro quo here, or is it just North Korea giving troops to train and perhaps fight for Russia? And that's something the U.S. is also looking at very closely.

We have seen the U.S. -- we have seen Russia share some technology with North Korea. But as North Korea tries to push forward its nuclear program, its satellite program, where they've had some successes and some failures, those are areas where Russia could very much help, and that would make this an even more problematic situation in a much more serious one, Jim.

SCIUTTO: No question. Missiles -- North Korea already a nuclear power as well.

Oren Liebermann at the Pentagon, thanks so much.

For a broader military analysis of the state of the war there and beyond, let's bring in Brigadier General Steve Anderson.

Good to have you on, sir. Thanks so much for taking the time.

BRIG. GENERAL STEVE ANDERSON, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Thank you, Jim. Good to be here.

SCIUTTO: The Russian losses in Ukraine are just staggering now. I mean, we described this war as a stalemate and it is in territorial terms, but Russia losing 1,200 forces a day in both lost, killed, and injured, and half a million -- more than half a million by the U.S. estimate since the start of the war.

I wonder first of all, when we look at the North Korea component here, does this mean that Russia cannot meet its military personnel needs in part because of those losses, so they need to turn to North Korea for help?

ANDERSON: Well, that certainly would be an indication of that, Jim, you know, to be losing 1,200 soldiers a day. I mean, to put this in context, they've lost perhaps over half 1 million soldiers since the start of the war two years ago. That's 15 times the number of soldiers that we lost in Iraq, 15 times.

[15:45:06]

So I think that it is a sign of desperation on the part of Vladimir Putin, but nevertheless, I mean, Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin call this a dangerous escalation and I think that is. If they were in fact put into combat against the Ukrainians, that would be a pretty strong indication that that Russia has succeeded in bringing up a larger coalition to this fight. And it's going to make it more difficult. But ultimately, I just think that its a sign of desperation on the part of Vladimir Putin.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. I mean, I think it's 150 times what we lost in Iraq, right? If were talking half a -- half a million at this point.

Question in terms of what this means for the Russian war machine, right? Because I mean, if you look at the rushes Afghanistan invasion from 1979 they lost several thousand over the course of a decade and that is seen as helping to -- helping lead to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

I mean, do -- do you see that Russia can withstand a war with that level of losses?

ANDERSON: No, they -- they cannot. And Vladimir Putin is the center of gravity, okay? This fight in Ukraine is an existential threat to him. He must win this fight in order for him to maintain power, and he recognizes that.

So we've got -- we've been -- the United States and NATO need to make all our efforts to de-motivate Vladimir Putin. I mean, the invasion into Kursk was a major black eye for Vladimir Putin. Now the fact that now for over two months, they've had occupied territory within the sovereign area of Russia by the Ukrainians. That is significant. So I believe that there's mounting political pressure against Vladimir

Putin. And he absolutely has to win this war. And that's why he wants to bring in the North Koreans and try to get help from the Ukrainians, the Chinese and everyone else.

But we cannot forget this war will last as long as Vladimir Putin wants to, since he is the center of gravity.

SCIUTTO: Yeah, war of choice, by the way, he's -- he's the one who chose to roll the tanks in there, of course.

And yet we see him, we see him at this BRICS summit now standing alongside the leaders, not just of China, but, but of India, who the U.S. has a relationship with or the UAE where the U.S. has a military base. Does this mean that the world has failed to isolate Putin in the wake of this invasion?

ANDERSON: Well, it's not a good sign, Jim. I -- and I'm disappointed to see that, to see the Indians do that. But nevertheless, the NATO coalition has never been stronger. We got Finland and Sweden to join.

I mean, this has been a complete, utter political miscalculation on the part of Vladimir Putin, you know? And, so I believe that ultimately, he is isolated. And this is wearing down as economy, wearing down his people and I'm thinking that we're going to see increasing signs of unrest within the -- within the Russian people because 600,000 casualties, it just -- it does an awful lot to lose in a battle like this, and it's going to continue for the foreseeable future until we find a way to get Vladimir Putin out of this, out of the business and understand that, like I said, that he is the center of gravity.

He must be attacked. His political pressure -- political pressure must be applied in every way we can and to make the people of Russia either stand up and overthrow him, or he decide that this game is too expensive for him to play anymore and for him to pull his troops out of Ukraine.

SCIUTTO: Yeah, and I realized when you're comparing the casualties to Iraq, you're probably talking about both killed and wounded, not make it that make sense to me.

ANDERSON: Right.

SCIUTTO: I want to ask your view two about hearing from retired Marine General John Kelly, who I'm sure you've -- you've got some history with here, served 40 years in the marines, decorated warning in multiple interviews now with "The Times," with "The Atlantic", in a book I wrote earlier this year, that Trump has praised Hitler, that Trump admires Hitler's generals, Nazi generals, that is, but also that he fits the definition of a fascist.

Now for you, when you hear that from someone of John Kelly's service to this country, but also his proximity to Trump as his chief of staff for that time in the White House what's your reaction? ANDERSON: It's very shocking, but not surprising because we've all know this. I mean, we could -- we could sit here all day and talk about how terrible Donald Trump is. The fact that Kelly has come up on the net and finally, you know, said something in public is a good sign or wish he had done it earlier.

But I worked with an organization called National Security Leaders for America. There's 750 of us, all former U.S. generals and admirals and senior leaders in the military.

[15:50:01]

And we all have been voicing our concern against Donald Trump for, you know, for years really since the 6th January insurrection. That's when everything changed for me.

But one of the things that I want to make sure we point out is that not only is Trump a bad person, it would be a terrible risk to our democracy into our national security, but Kamala Harris will make a great president. She's smart. She's articulate.

She promotes democracy and American style leadership. She will restore and maintain our status as a world leader as she understands service and sacrifice. She's done it in her entire life, where Donald Trump ever done it for a day.

So we've really got to turn from the politics of Donald Trump and the hatred and grievance politics, and look to Kamala's innate optimism and look for positive change for all so Americans and support Kamala Harris for president.

SCIUTTO: Elections coming soon, as you know.

Brigadier General Steve Anderson, thanks so much for joining.

ANDERSON: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Coming up, A.I., artificial intelligence, is supposed to, by some accounts, make everyday tasks easier. Now, a tech firm says that could extend the planning crimes.

Oh boy, you'll want to know, we'll explain

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:53:50]

SCIUTTO: Well, would-be criminals might have a new technological tool at their disposal. A Norwegian tech startup ran experiments using ChatGPT and found the chatbot could be used to provide a detailed -- detailed advice on how to commit crimes.

Clare Duffy is tracking this from New York.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CLARE DUFFY, CNN BUSINESS WRITER: Yeah, Jim, these findings come from a company that helps banks to avoid violating sanctions, avoid other risks. They ran an experiment asking ChatGPT for information on how to commit certain financial crimes and what they found is that ChatGPT would provide advice about how to do things like cross-border money laundering, how to evade financial sanctions, and how to commit illegal cross border arm sales.

Here's how the co-founder of this company described the situation. She said, it's like having a corrupt financial advisor on your desktop.

And this is really troubling, right, because we know ChatGPT is so powerful for all of us, it can provide information on nearly anything you can think to ask it, right at your fingertips, but that also means that it has the potential to be misused by bad actors.

Now, it does appear that you have to be a fairly sophisticated user of ChatGPT to get it to produce these kinds of results. The team that ran this experiment that, that they manipulated the bot, they took on different personas while talking to ChatGPT, or, they asked him questions indirectly.

CNN also wanted to test this out, so we asked ChatGPT, how can I, as the owner of a U.S.-based exports business, evade sanctions against Russia? And ChatGPT responded, I can't assist with that.

So it looks like if you ask the bot directly at knows that that violates its rules. And when we asked OpenAI, the maker of ChatGPT about this, they said they're continuing to work to try to make it harder for people to manipulate ChatGPT and violate its rules. But for now, pretty troubling results, Jim.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Yeah, to say the least, Clare Duffy.

So now to a robot doing something at least for a little more positive with its time.

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SCIUTTO: What a talented robot. This music machine made history earlier this month, playing the cello, alongside the Malmo symphony orchestra in Sweden. Robot was designed and developed by researcher Fredrik Gran and program to play a score that was specifically written for it.

The composer, who wrote the score, said he believes music played by robots will become an art form of its own, and he says, will not replace human musicians. Let's hope not.

Thanks so much for joining me today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.