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Trump Expected To Rehire ICE Director Who Oversaw Controversial Family Separation Policy In First Term; Dems Reckon With Loss Of Working Class Voters In 2024 Election; How Trump's Mass Deportation Plan Could Work. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired November 10, 2024 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: We're back on a busy night with new developments, as Trump is beginning to select who will staff his second term, some of whom are familiar faces from his first term. I'm hearing tonight that in the coming days, Donald Trump is expected to announce that he is bringing back Tom Homan.

[21:00:06]

You might remember Homan, who served as the Acting Director of Immigrations and Customs Enforcement previously for Trump. He's now expected to serve in a czar-like role, though I'm told the details are still being finalized. That could change according to my sources.

Homan, of course, is someone who has defended the family separation policy that was put in place when Donald Trump was first in office, and also recently argued when he was asked about Trump's plan for mass deportations this time around, that, quote, "families could be deported together." Homan, you'll remember, spoke at the Republican Convention in July.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM HOMAN, TRUMP'S FORMER ACTING ICE DIRECTOR: Every president I've worked for said they're going to secure the border. President Trump actually did it. I got a message to the millions of illegal aliens that Joe Biden's releasing in our country in violation of federal law. You better start packing now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: As we wait for that announcement to come in the next few days, we expect, I should also note that on this Wednesday, there is going to be a remarkable meeting taking place at the White House between President-elect Donald Trump and President Joe Biden. It's a tradition after elections, but it's one that did not happen in 2020, when Trump was falsely claiming that he had won the election and that Joe Biden had not. But tonight, we're learning new details about what this meeting is going to look like and what President Biden plans to say when he's behind closed doors with Donald Trump. And it's just the two of them in the Oval Office.

The White House says that Biden is committed to the peaceful transfer of power, unlike Trump, and that the two men will go through top issues, both foreign and domestic, and exchange their views on that. I'm joined tonight by Anthony Scaramucci, who, of course, spent a few days as Trump's White House Communications Director and always has an interesting perspective.

First, can I just get your thoughts on this meeting between Trump and Biden? Because my first thought was, I hope that there's a pool spray, which for those who are not, you know, versed in White House lingo, that means reporters get to come into the room with the cameras and the microphones to witness the meetings that are happening, at least the beginnings of them. I mean, what do you think it's going to be like when Donald Trump and Joe Biden are in the room together?

ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, FORMER TRUMP WH COMMUNICATION DIRECTOR: Well, you know, I -- you know, Kaitlan, you covered President Trump when he was in the White House the last time. He is charming one-on-one. He was very respectful and very charming to Barack Obama eight years ago.

He was also respectful to Vice President Harris at the 9/11 memorial ceremony two months ago. So I don't see this going awry. I don't see these guys fighting with each other. They'll be cordial.

But again, this is something that President Biden is affording Donald Trump, but not something that Donald Trump afforded President Biden. So there is some asymmetry there.

COLLINS: Yeah, it's just remarkable, given everything that Trump has said about Biden. Biden, I'll never forget, you know, in that speech on the anniversary of January 6th said Trump held a dagger to the throat of democracy. I mean, obviously to see them in the room will be remarkable.

But as we wait for that, you know, this transition is underway. It's moving very quickly down at Mar-a-Lago based on what I'm hearing. What is your assessment of how the transition has gone so far?

SCARAMUCCI: Well, you know, last time it was -- it was way more difficult because you had -- you had Trump people, what I would call loyalists, and then you had the RNC. And the RNC was very begrudgingly with Trump at the end, if you remember. And so they were together in the transition, and it was sort of like a rough M&A transaction, if you will.

And there was a culture clash. I don't think you're going to have that now. Donald Trump more or less liquidated the old RNC, put his people in there, including his daughter-in-law. And then, of course, you had the Trump legacy loyalty people. So you're not going to have that infighting the way we had it in 2016. So I think that's a positive.

The other positive is that Susie Wiles has worked with the president for, you know, you tell me, Kaitlan, but I think it's at least 18 to 24 months. And so that's way better than what happened to Reince Priebus. You know, Reince didn't really like the president. Then he learned to like the president. Then he was with the president, working with him, but he wasn't really with him day to day on the campaign the way Susie is. So I think all those things are positives for the transition. And of

course, I like her and I like that pic. I think she's a moderate voice. And, you know, I obviously, listen, they won the team I was representing lost. I want them to govern well. And it's in the best interest of the country that they do a great job and I wish them well.

But his rhetoric is something I think all of us were concerned by. If that rhetoric turns into reality when he's president and, you know, I know, Tom, the immigrations are a long time. I certainly don't want families, you know, blown out of the country and I don't want this reversal of birthright citizenship. I think that would be very un- American. It would be against the credo of America and our culture. So those are things that I would stand against. But hopefully that sort of rhetoric is just rhetoric, Kaitlan.

[21:05:08]

COLLINS: Well, and Trump toyed with the idea of birthright citizenship and getting rid of it his first time around. But can I just follow up? You said you don't think there will be as much infighting this time. Why do you think that? I mean, that is certainly, you know, it seems ripe for -- for that based on just the jockeying that's taking place with the transition right now.

SCARAMUCCI: Well, I think there's traditional jockeying like there is in every transition, but I think there was a very big culture clash last time. I think Donald Trump Jr. and Donald Trump and Howard Lutnick and Linda McMahon know sort of the players that they want. They signaled yesterday as an example that Governor Haley and -- Ambassador Haley and former Secretary of State Pompeo will not be part of it. And so that's a sign that they're going through this sort of loyalty litmus test.

And again, we may not like the outcome and we may not like the promulgation of policy from those people, but I think they're going to hire loyalists. I don't think they're going to set up the conflicts that they had set up in the first administration.

You know, I've been wrong about a lot of things and I've been wrong about a lot of things in the last week. It was I could be wrong about this, too, but it doesn't -- it doesn't feel like it's the same culture clash.

COLLINS: Yeah, though, you did acknowledge that you were wrong about you thought Harris was going to win the election. Obviously, Trump did. But what does the West Wing look like where everyone is a loyalist and agrees? Because it is true, everyone is very eager to -- to meet that requirement. I mean, even people who either quit around January 6th or have been critical of Trump are now trying to get jobs in his administration. They very well might get them. But -- but they're all kind of seeking favor with him right now. And I just wonder, as someone who used to work there, how you're viewing that happening.

SCARAMUCCI: Yeah, so those people, some of them may leak into the administration, but I think the -- I think the Trump family doesn't want those people in the administration. And so I think that that was a sign last night, that signal that both Pompeo and Haley were not going to be in the administration is a sign, OK, don't do another pirouette or what I call the Washington two step. And so -- but, you know, listen, he's at his best when he's coordinated and he's doing the things that he likes to do. And I think Susie knows that.

So his schedule is going to get set up in a way where he'll be making decisions. He likes to do certain things. He doesn't like to do other things. She'll -- she'll cut those out of his schedule and delegate it to other people. And so I think, you know, look, I'm hoping for the best possible outcome.

But again, if they do 15% of what was promised on the campaign, it'll hurt the economy. It'll hurt the culture of America. I mean, I certainly don't want caravans of people deported and put in concentration camps, which more or less technically is what they would have to do.

So -- so I certainly would speak out against that. But if the right wing is saying, well, he didn't really mean all that, that was just nasty rhetoric during the campaign. Let's give him a chance to govern and let's hope he does a good job for all the American people.

And listen, he got a mandate, Kaitlan. You know, he got -- he won the popular vote. And frankly, I like that better. I think it's better for him and it's better for the country that we don't have him getting in there just on the Electoral College. So -- so let's give him a chance and let's see what happens.

COLLINS: You sound surprisingly hopeful. And given what you've said about Trump in the past, you know, I think some people might be watching and -- and wondering why that is.

SCARAMUCCI: Well, because I'm an American and I'm an optimist, you know, I -- I don't want to be a sore loser. We just lost an election. I told people what I saw. General Kelly, a very close personal friend, told people what he saw. There were 40 of us that spoke out against him, sort of put a surge in generals warning label on his leadership style. The American people ignored that. The majority of the American people have spoken. I think it requires a person like me to be humble to that notion that the majority of the American people have spoken. They heard the warnings that people like myself and John Kelly or Mark Esper, you pick the 40 people said.

And so I'm an American. I am hopeful. I'm an optimist. I want them to do well. You know, of course, if they're not doing well or they're executing the things that Donald Trump was saying on the campaign, I'll be out there exercising my First Amendment right, explaining to people how dangerous that is and how difficult that would be for the country.

COLLINS: But -- but on -- on what you just said about General Kelly, who now is calling Trump saying he meets the definition of a fascist. That was what broke right before the election. I mean, he is someone who when he was brought in as chief of staff, I remember he had certain conditions about he wanted to be able to control who was coming in and out of the West Wing and in the Oval Office and, you know, basically trying to streamline the chaos around Donald Trump that they were worried is what made the West Wing so chaotic.

I mean, Susie Wiles made similar demands when she was taking the job conditions, I guess I should say, about controlling that. I mean, General John Kelly was not successful with that, a four-star Marine. Do you think that -- that Susie Wiles coming in this time around will -- can anyone do that, I guess, is the question.

[21:10:17]

SCARAMUCCI: Yeah, so that's a good question. I don't know their personal chemistry. I know each of them separately, but I don't know their personal chemistry. But I would gather that they have good personal chemistry because she's been on the campaign for probably longer than General Kelly was on staff as chief of staff. So to me, I think that's a good sign.

You're right. No one's going to be able to control lots of parts of Donald Trump's personality. But like I said, let's give him a chance. Let's see what happens. Hopefully you'll invite me back at the 100-day mark and you and I can make an evaluation.

COLLINS: Yeah, we'll replay this interview then. Anthony Scaramucci, thank you.

SCARAMUCCI: Good to be here.

COLLINS: Coming up, we heard from Senator Bernie Sanders today criticizing Democrats as he says they've lost touch with working class Americans. Two of his former advisers are here to weigh in on that.

Plus, more of my new reporting tonight about who could potentially be serving in a new Trump administration. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:15:53]

COLLINS: Tonight, independent Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders is repeating his stance that he believes Democrats abandoned working class people. That was a sentiment that he first shared last week after vice president Harris lost to Donald Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Biden promised to be the most progressive president since FDR in many ways on domestic issues. I think he kept his word, but here is the reality. The working class of this country is angry and they have a reason to be angry.

We need an agenda that says to the working class, we're going to take on these powerful special interests and create an economy and a government that works for you. And by the way, that can't happen unless you get big money out of politics.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: There is one prominent Democrat who disagrees with Senator Sanders. That is the former House Speaker, Nancy Pelosi, who told the "New York Times" regarding what Bernie Sanders argued there. I think the message that Bernie Sanders has put out is not the winning message for the American people. I love him. I think he's great. But his point of view is not correct.

I want to dig into what she means by that with Chuck Rocha, Democratic Strategist and former Senior Adviser to Bernie Sanders in 2016 and his 2020 presidential runs. And Faiz Shakir, Bernie Sanders' Chief Political Adviser.

It's great to have you both here, Chuck. Just listening to what Pelosi was saying, she was arguing that this election is not a rebuke of Democrats. She said that a large part of the reason working class voters went to Trump in this interview with Lulu Garcia-Navarro, she argued was because of culture wars. She said there are cultural issues involved in elections as well. Guns, God and gays talking about the Republicans saying that's the way they argue it. What do you make of this breaking and Pelosi so publicly disagreeing with -- with Bernie Sanders here?

CHUCK ROCHA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, if you haven't listened to the interview with my good friend, Lulu, you should listen to the whole thing because it's really good.

Let me give you this example. The example I have is 35 years ago, I joined the party. I joined the party of the Democratic Party because I was scared that my factory job was going to be sent overseas. So I got involved to fight against NAFTA. I also wanted to what I would say, drain the swamp, get rich people out of involved of like who makes my decisions for me.

And then I was tired of seeing my tax dollars spent on overseas wars. I'd like to see that money spent in my neighborhood, in my community. Who does that sound like? That sounds like Donald Trump today. That's why he won. We've let him co-opt our message of the reason I joined the Democratic Party as a 19-year-old factory worker.

And it's no different today. The fastest growing group of middle-class workers in this country are Latinos. It's another reason why you see Latinos moving a little bit to the right. We have to get back to making the Democratic Party the party of the workers and the Republican Party, the party of the bosses, if we want to win for the future.

COLLINS: Well, and Faiz, on that, you know, I talked to Bernie Sanders on Monday night and he kind of alluded to the fact that he thought Harris might lose. This is when everyone was saying she was going to win. Democrats are feeling, you know, euphoric going into Tuesday.

And he said, regardless of how this election turns out, the Democratic Party needs to take a good long look at itself and was essentially referencing that on, you know, the economy and the issues that the Democrats have been running on in this cycle. Do you think he has a point?

FAIZ SHAKIR, BERNIE SANDERS' 2020 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Kaitlan, I traveled with Senator Sanders. I think we did 40 events for Kamala Harris. We went to all of the battleground states, Texas as well, Iowa, Illinois, all kinds of places. And we could see and feel where the energy enthusiasm was. And there was some energy enthusiasm.

But you saw with working class people a concern about whether she was going to fight for them. When the chips were down, is this somebody who's going to be in our corner? Does she understand that we would often hear this? Does she understand that our factories are being closed down? Our jobs are moving to Mexico. Does she understand the fact that some of our wages right now are being suppressed by our employers despite their best efforts?

And, you know, people were just worried and they did -- and they heard from her a campaign that made choices. These are good people, well- intentioned people who run the campaign. But they say Mark Cuban is our spokesperson right now.

[21:20:02]

And we're going to not tell you how we feel about Lina Khan or the FTC. We don't want to spend too much time telling you about the Biden record. And it's a challenge when you run for president. You got to tell people. And I think there's a desire for people to learn with depth. What have you been doing? Why have you been doing it? And why do you deserve four more years to continue this trajectory?

And too often on that score, there was equivocation and a lack of contrast, a lack of willingness to fight that economic fight.

COLLINS: Well, when you look at the demographic breakdown from Tuesday, it's really fascinating. And Chuck, you noted that the fastest growing segment of the working class are Latino voters. And when you look at what we saw in our exit polls, Harris saw a 12-point drop from where Biden was in 2020. Trump gained 13 points.

And if you're looking at that from just four years ago, if you're a Democrat, how do you explain that shift to yourself? Even though, you know, there is Trump talking about mass deportations and he has people making fun of Puerto Rico. It is it was, you know, one of his last rallies. You know, what do you make of that shift in how they voted?

ROCHA: There's an undertow of anxiety that Bernie was talking about with people out there that are worried every day about how they're going to feed themselves. They will look past a lot to get to that point on the economy.

I was really blessed to get to work on lots of these races this year. For example, Ruben Gallego, who overperformed Kamala Harris in Arizona by almost nine points. You know why? He rooted his message in working class values. He's a Marine veteran. He showed up where men were consuming, whether it was rodeos, basketball tournaments, going to work sites before they opened. This is what the Democratic Party has to return to is an honor of work. There's something that ties us all together, and it's the dignity and sanctity of work. No matter if you take a shower before you go to work or you take a shower after you get off of work, we've got to root our message back into this work and providing for your families.

COLLINS: Well, and Faiz, you know, I've been talking to some Democrats who say, OK, we've got two years for the midterms, four years before what's going to be an open presidential election. I mean, what work needs to be done in that time period?

SHAKIR: Well, Kaitlan, in the next few months, we've got an open DNC chair race.

COLLINS: Yeah. And I'm hopeful that in the context of that DNC chair race, a few things happen. One is, you know, hopefully a lot of people enter that race. And I think there should be debates. There should be open conversation, public debates. Let's have it out, a healthy debate is a good debate. And then in addition to that, we think about a project for what that DNC chair has to do.

I would hope that they're going to open the doors of the Democratic Party, make it a grassroots party, say we want to get out into Wisconsin, New Jersey, Virginia, you name the state. And we want to invite people in. But especially and intentionally, people who voted for Donald Trump, people who might have voted for Obama, then went to Trump.

Come in, we want to hear from you and we want to listen to you. We want to take notes. We want to ask you some basic questions. What do you think of the Democratic brand? What are our strengths? What are our weaknesses? What do you like us talking about? What do you not like us talking about?

And I hope that that healthy process helps guide a ship. Because right now, obviously, we're all pundits. We're trying to give some thoughts and advice. The final arbiters of a lot of this are voters, right?

Tell us how you would like to see a Democratic Party better appeal to you. We can start that process. We should engage that process.

COLLINS: Chuck Rocha, Faiz Shakir, great to have you both here. Thank you.

SHAKIR: Thank you, Kaitlan.

ROCHA: Thank you, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Up next, we have more on my new reporting. The one person Trump could be bringing in to help execute his immigration policy.

And also, how does the president elect's promise to carry out mass deportations happen? What does it look like? Because he is promising it on day one. We're going to take a deeper look at that tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:27:57]

COLLINS: I've new reporting tonight on the team that is coming together to turn one of Donald Trump's signature promises on the campaign trail, mass deportations into actual policy. In the coming days, I'm told Donald Trump is expected to bring back Tom Homan in a czar like role on immigration, though I was warned the details are still fluid. They could change.

But you'll remember Tom Homan. He was in Trump's first term in office when he served as the Acting Director of Immigrations and Customs Enforcement. He recently defended Trump's plan to carry out mass deportations in an interview with "60 Minutes."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is there a way to carry out mass deportation without separating families?

HOMAN: Of course, there is. Families can be deported together. It's not going to be a mass sweep of neighborhoods. It's not going to be building concentration camps. I've read it all. It's ridiculous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: But we have yet to hear exactly how this will be carried out or how much it's going to cost. Trump recently said there's no price tag on it. And Republican Senator John Barrasso agreed this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN JOHN BARRASSO (R-WY): I agree, there's no price tag on protecting the safety and security of our country and our citizens. President Trump is going to enforce the law, and we haven't had that over the last four years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: CNN Political Analyst and New York Times White House Correspondent Zolan Kanno-Youngs is here with me now.

Zolan, obviously you covered immigration closely in the last Trump term. Bringing Tom Homan back, what does that mean for what that's going to look like his second time in office?

ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yeah, one of the early conversations that the president-elect had after announcing that he would run for re-election, that he would run this campaign, he had a conversation with Tom Homan. His former Acting Director of ICE, and discussed these plans for mass deportations.

Just so your viewers are reminded, Tom Homan was also somebody that did sign on and endorse the zero-tolerance policy that did lead to the separation of families when the president-elect was last in the White House as well.

[21:30:12] The president-elect thinks highly of Tom Homan. We know that he has an interest of bringing him back into this incoming administration. He is likely somebody that has -- he is somebody that has influence over these immigration policies that really will take it to the next level from even the previous anti-immigration agenda that we saw when the President-elect was last in the White House.

We know that there are plans to redirect funds from the military, from the Pentagon, in order to create these mass detention camps. We know that he does have plans to also use the military at the border and also for these kind of sweeping deportations throughout the country.

We know also that Stephen Miller, who was the architect of his last anti-immigration agenda, is obviously a pivotal decision-maker in the forthcoming agenda as well.

And Kaitlan, I think something that's worth noting too, you know, when I was reporting on this the last time around, there was time and time again, there would be a proposal that would be considered, you know, one was actually Stephen Miller considered busing migrants from the border into democratic cities. You might -- that might sound like what Greg Abbott is doing.

He thought about doing that in 2019. He thought about trying to use health authorities to shut down the border before Title 42. When Trump was last in office, and actually career officials, ICE officials, would stand in his way. Sometimes general counsels as well would bring up concerns around the legality of some of these policies.

This time around, they're looking for conservative lawyers that will fall in line and implement this agenda. They are looking for a team, not have those career officials that will put up those roadblocks.

COLLINS: Yeah, that's a really good point of why this could look different the second time around, not just because of who's there, but also, you know, who's not there.

Zolan Kanno-Youngs, thank you for that reporting.

And for more on this, I want to get to CNN's Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst, John Miller. Because John, you know, I've been thinking about this when we've been talking to sources in recent days. I mean, this idea of deporting, it depends on who you ask, what the number is going to look like. Sometimes he'll say hundreds of thousands. They've said up to 11 million. I mean, in actual practice, what would that look like?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT & INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, in actual practice, it's not realistic. I mean, the estimates, and these are the government estimates, as well as the estimates from the migrant advocacy groups, are that there are somewhere between 11 and 17 million people here who are here illegally or out of status. There aren't enough ICE agents and Homeland Security people in the country to start doing that kind of removal.

And during the campaign, they talked about things like a million a year. But Holman's signature operation was always to scan for people who were here illegally or those who had been deported before and were back and were in the system, meaning they'd been arrested for a crime. And that was kind of the triage piece, which is focused on the courthouses and the jails or zeroing in on a location where you know that individual is.

How that got complicated, though, was you might hit an apartment looking for a wanted individual and then find the person or not find the person you were looking for, but then check the immigration status of everybody else in that apartment and they would get caught in the same net. So there was a lot of controversy around that.

COLLINS: Well, and on who's carrying this out, I mean, you just talked about the limits for ICE. If local law enforcement is used for something like this because there's not enough personnel or infrastructure built in, I mean, is that something that would be possible? And would local law enforcement actually be ordered to participate? Or how does that -- how does that get carried out in terms of who's enforcing this?

MILLER: Well, Kaitlan, there are 17 -- over 17000 law enforcement agencies across the country, many of them small departments. But, you know, there's 70 some odd major cities, eight hundred and fifty thousand cops. But it depends from city to city.

You know, you've got democratic cities in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago that are considered sanctuary cities where by law in many of those places, the police are barred from even asking the immigration or status of somebody when they encounter them in a normal police encounter or even when they're arrested.

Here's where it gets complicated again, because when you book someone into the system and you run them through NCIC to find out if they're wanted somewhere else, if they have a want against them by ICE or immigration and that pops, then you've kind of tipped them that you have them in custody.

[21:35:09]

What they want to do, then, is put a hold on that person, which is if the local charge is dismissed or they're released, they want you to hold them until ICE can get there and take them into custody for deportation. Some cities refuse to do that. So you've got cities that cooperate, cities that don't.

And you'll remember this, the Attorney General back in the first Trump administration, Jeff Sessions, actually told cities, if you're not cooperating and holding them for us because it's against your law, we're going to hold back federal funding to your police agency. That ended up going to court. He ended up backing down. That ended up not happening.

But I guarantee you, you will see the reemergence of that conversation about grant funding and homeland security funds for places that are on the other side of this issue with the incoming administration, because they've said it's a priority. COLLINS: Yeah, Trump has claimed he'll ban sanctuary cities. We'll see what that looks like when he's actually in office.

John Miller, thank you so much.

MILLER: Thanks, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Up next, we have a glimpse into the meeting that is coming up between Donald Trump and President Biden. It's going to happen on Wednesday. We'll tell you what details we're learning from the White House about where it'll happen and what they're going to talk about.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:41:00]

COLLINS: President Biden has a message for president elect Trump when they meet this Wednesday in the Oval Office. That's according to what Biden's national security adviser shared with us today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE SULLIVAN, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: The first and most important message will be that President Biden is committed to the peaceful transfer of power. And then they will go through the top issues, both domestic and foreign policy issues, including what is happening in Europe and Asia and the Middle East. And the President will have the chance to explain to President Trump how he sees things, where they stand, and talk to President Trump about how President Trump is thinking about taking on these -- these issues when he takes office.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: My political team is back here with me. Mayor, do you think the meeting is going to sound like how Jake Sullivan described it when they're -- Trump and Biden are in the Oval Office together?

BILL DE BLASIO (D-NY) FORMER MAYOR: I admire Jake Sullivan's optimism and idealism about America. No, I don't -- I've had numerous conversations with Donald Trump, and it's fascinating that it's basically a monologue with pauses.

And so the notion of Joe Biden, who has his own kind of fascinating way of communicating these two somehow having a real dialogue. No, that's not going to happen. It's going to be for the cameras. It's going to show -- I think for Trump, it's actually a really smart move to show something like some normalcy. But is Joe Biden going to be able to say to Trump, hey, maybe it's a problem if you give up a big chunk of Ukraine to Russia? Maybe you should think twice about that. That's not going to be a productive conversation.

COLLINS: I mean, they've totally opposing views on so many foreign policy issues that Jake Sullivan just mentioned there.

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And this is going to sound like a diss, and it is. But it's also just the reality that -- COLLINS: I love that phrase.

DE BLASIO: And it is.

CUPP: It's a criticism. It's a criticism. Joe Biden likes to be informed. I don't know how much Trump cares about getting, you know, good on the ground expertise, advisors. He really thinks he knows how to work this, you know, throughout the campaign. He said, I'm going to end that war really quickly, didn't explain at all how he would do it.

So the idea that -- I mean, this is what should happen. The handoff should be. Here's all the information I have, and here's why I made these decisions. Here's what you're up against. But Donald Trump doesn't take advice. And no offense to Biden, why would he take advice from Biden to begin with? I just don't see that happening.

COLLINS: Well, I mean, it's just remarkable given the relationship between these two. Obviously, Trump did not show up in 2020, or he did not invite Biden to the White House in 2020 when he was claiming that he won that election. Biden here has, you know, taken a totally different route and said, yes, he can come and let's meet.

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, look, I mean, I think there's some critical things that they should talk about. I'm really focused on China in particular for a couple of reasons. Their developments with hypersonics, our military, from my understanding, is a little bit behind China. We need to catch up there.

I'm looking at their expansionism in the South Chinese Sea, expanding their military capabilities and capacity. I'm also looking at the Chinese Import-Export Bank and how they're utilizing these loans to help developing nations build and grow their own economies to essentially buy favor with China so that they're allies of China versus allies of the United States.

So I'm looking at some really serious foreign policy issues, Kaitlan, that I think are going to have significant implications over the next 20 years. That's what I hope they really focus on.

DE BLASIO: Yeah, but to make this point, I mean, if -- it would be great if Joe Biden said, look, I want to let you know what's going on with Ukraine and how it may have an impact, for example, on how China approaches Taiwan. That would be an incredibly helpful conversation.

But to the S.E.'s point, can you imagine Donald Trump saying, oh, I want to hear your perspective on that, or I see how these pieces fit together, I better think twice? I don't see that.

CUPP: We wished, for all of the 2016 term, we wished that Donald Trump would outsource his foreign policy to experts and advisers. And every time he came up against one that didn't completely agree with him or sounded an alarm about Donald Trump's lack of information or bad impulses, he was gone. So I just don't see a big change this time.

[21:45:05] COLLINS: Yeah, we're seeing that play out tonight, obviously. And you know, is everyone still kind of processing Trump's win, both the Trump team and his detractors and Democrats? You know, Saturday Night Live was on the air last night, and they -- Trump has promised to go after his perceived enemies. And listen to how they -- how they decided to say that they're preparing for this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're so excited to debut our new impression, hot jacked Trump.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's right. That's right. It's me, hot jacked Trump. They finally got the body right. But from now on, we're going to do very flattering portrayal of Trump because he's frankly my hero and he's going to make an incredible president and eventually king.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: I mean, Shermichael?

SINGLETON: I mean, look, I don't watch SNL. I got to be honest with you.

COLLINS: You should. It's so good.

SINGLETON: I guess -- I mean, I guess some people in New York may find the humor in it, I suppose. I think those of us on the conservative side, we have our own outlets where we go to find humor. This isn't it for me.

CUPP: I love SNL. I think it's really funny.

SINGLETON: I'm also younger too, so I'm just saying.

CUPP: Oh.

SINGLETON: No, no. I don't mean it like that.

CUPP: He's so millennial.

SINGLETON: I'm a millennial, S.E. That's all I'm saying.

CUPP: How old do you think I am, Michael?

COLLINS: Oh my God.

SINGLETON: 38.

CUPP: OK. You're redeemed.

SINGLETON: Thank you.

CUPP: No, listen, that's --

DE BLASIO: A tense moment on the set. CUPP: That is how you handle that. That is how you handle this. The

outrage and tears, and that's not why we're tuning into SNL. You got to make light of it. We all have to move on. I know that this was existentially painful for people. We've got to move on, and this was exactly the right tone for SNL.

COLLINS: I mean, that was really quick crisis management.

SINGLETON: Yes.

COLLINS: I just want to say --

CUPP: You mean for sure, Shermichael?

COLLINS: Yeah.

DE BLASIO: I saw the tear on his face.

COLLINS: Yeah, yeah.

SINGLETON: You know, I've been doing this a little while, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: It could have gone poorly. Thank you all. I'll let you know what happens when we are off camera in a moment.

Meanwhile, it was a comeback for the ages, but was Trump's victory a landslide? We're going to talk to Historia next on how it actually ranks in the context of former presidencies.

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[21:51:48]

COLLINS: More news tonight on Trump's transition that is underway right now. Of course, staffing is the biggest focus that we are hearing about. And I'm just hearing that President-elect Trump has offered New York Congresswoman Elise Stefanik the job as U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations. We reported last week on Friday that she was in the running for this position and now she is expected to get this job. We'll see, of course, if she formally accepts the role.

Seeing how quickly that's moving down at Mar-a-Lago will keep you abreast of other new developments on that front as well.

And also I should note tonight as we look at Trump's return to office, it is very likely that he is going to be taking it with something that he has never won before, the popular vote. And if Republicans control the House, as it looks like they're going to do, we're still waiting to call a few races, Republicans won't control the entire U.S. government. But the question tonight is does Trump's win count as a landslide?

His 312 electoral votes actually puts him in the lower half of presidential election winners. Barack Obama and Bill Clinton won more in both of their campaigns. And they're all blown away by Ronald Reagan, of course, winning 525 electoral college votes in 1984. I'm joined by the presidential historian and president and CEO of the LBJ Foundation, Mark Updegrove. And it's great to have you here. When you do look at Trump's win, how does it stack up against previous elections here in the U.S.?

MARK UPDEGROVE, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, it's only the second time since 1988 that a Republican has won the popular vote. The only other one was George W. Bush in 2004, Kaitlan. So it's impressive in that regard.

You talked about Ronald Reagan's win in 1984, without question a huge landslide. Richard Nixon in 1972, another landslide. But I think particularly in this divided environment, to get the mandate that Trump got, to get 50-plus percent of the popular vote, to get that electoral vote tally, that's an impressive win. And I think the one thing you have to say about this in terms of its historical importance, Kaitlan, is this is without question the most impressive political comeback not only in this century, but in the history of the United States.

COLLINS: Yeah, Nixon used to be the standard bearer for that. But, you know, as we look at this, and we had a conversation with Democrats just a few moments ago about what this looks like going forward for their party. And you write in "Time" this week about the what-ifs that will haunt Biden's legacy.

Two of those, you say, are what if he had more effectively conveyed the economic achievements of his administration? You know, what if he had performed as well in his June debate against Trump as he had back in 2020? When you do look overall at his legacy, when we get further away from this moment that we're in right now, how do you think it'll be seen?

UPDEGROVE: It's hard to know. But I think the one thing is that Biden has not been a great communicator. If you look at his administration and what he accomplished during the course of his administration, it is without question impressive, particularly the legislative record of Joe Biden.

It's probably the most impressive since Lyndon Johnson in the 1960s. But what he didn't do effectively, Kaitlan, is convey that to the American people, particularly the economy, what his vision on the economy, what he did to push the economy forward. And that ended up being the issue that Americans voted on in this election.

[21:55:08]

So it's not only what you do as president. It's telling the people what you have done and what it means to them. Joe Biden was great on the former. He was weaker on the latter, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Yeah, and we see what a difference that could have made as we were just talking, Trump's about to inherit a great economy, even though he ran on arguing there was a failed one.

Mark Updegrove, it is going to keep historians like you busy. Thank you for your time tonight.

UPDEGROVE: Thanks, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: And thank you all so much for joining us these busy two hours. The news continues here on CNN after a short break.

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