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CNN International: CNN Projects: Republicans Will Keep Control Of The House; Biden To Trump At White House: "Welcome Back"; Sen. John Thune Elected New Senate GOP Leader; Trump Picks Tulsi Gabbard As Director Of National Intelligence; Trump Picks Rep. Matt Gaetz As Attorney General. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired November 13, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:36]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: The breaking news: it is now official. Republicans will control all three branches of political power in Washington.

The GOP today officially clinching, according to CNN projections, control of the House of Representatives, getting the magic number 218 seats with wins in California and Arizona. Democrats currently have 208 seats. Nine races still yet to be called.

So who will lead this very narrow GOP majority? House Republicans will decide that in a secret ballot any moment now.

CNN's Annie Grayer is outside where that vote is happening now.

Annie, of course, this is a big win for Republicans. It will be a small majority, but a majority nonetheless. Are they unified around Mike Johnson as their speaker again?

ANNIE GRAYER, CNN REPORTER: Well, certainly in this first vote, Jim, Johnson is expected to clear the threshold he needs easily. And become the speaker elect for the next Congress. His because he only needs a simple majority in this secret ballot happening behind me.

The real challenge though, Jim, is going to be in January when Johnson has to get 218 votes on the floor in November, and Johnson does not have a lot of cushion to work with. You mentioned that there's still nine seats, still too close to call. Whoever wins those seats is really going to determine how much of a margin Republicans have in the house, which will have huge implications for how Johnson is able to lead his very often, oftentimes divided and unruly conference but at this point, Republicans are trying to come together and unify, especially behind president elect Donald Trump, who visited them back here earlier this morning.

Republicans believe that the results from the presidential election and control in both chambers of government, that this trifecta just shows that there's a mandate from the American people to deliver on their priorities, specifically on the border, on tax cuts, on immigration, but how that gets done and how Speaker Mike Johnson keeps his conference together is really a looming question here.

SCIUTTO: No question. And if you look at recent track record wasn't that easy with such a small majority. Annie Grayer thanks so much.

Well, the House GOP's win caps off a busy day of political business here in Washington. The peaceful transfer of power restored for now, and a changing of the political guard. President Joe Biden welcomed President-elect Donald Trump to the Oval Office, fulfilling a custom that Trump cast aside himself in 2020 when he lost the race though never admitted that he lost the race.

The White House called that meeting substantive, a substantive exchange of views on a variety of topics. It at least started friendly with this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Donald, congratulations.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thank you very much.

BIDEN: And looking forward to having a, like we said, smooth transition -- do everything we can to make sure you're accommodated, what you need. And we're going to get a chance to talk about some of that today. So --

TRUMP: Good.

BIDEN: -- welcome. Welcome back.

TRUMP: Thank you very much. And thank you very much.

And politics is tough. And it's, many cases, not a very nice world, but it is a nice world today. And I appreciate it very much -- a transition that's so smooth, it'll be as smooth as it can get.

And I very much appreciate that, Joe.

BIDEN: You're welcome.

Thank you all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: In the Senate new leadership as well. By secret ballot today, Senate Republicans tapped South Dakota Senator John Thune to be their majority leader. Thune a close ally of outgoing leader Mitch McConnell not truly a MAGA choice. He did win handily, outlining his vision, a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN THUNE (R-SD): The Senate, as you know, is a by the Founders' design, a place where the minority has a voice in our in our process and we will do the job that the founders intended us to do in the United States Senate, and that the American people intend us to do.

And that right now, after this mandate election coming out of the American people, is to work with this president on an agenda that unwinds a lot of the damage of the Biden, Harris, Schumer agenda and puts in place new policies that will move our country forward in a different direction.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: All right. So, lots of changes in Washington. Who better to talk about it than folks who cover it very closely?

Our own Jeff Zeleny here at the desk with me, Leigh Ann Caldwell of "The Washington Post", and Ron Brownstein from "The Atlantic".

[15:05:07]

Good to have you all on. Lots of questions for you.

Leigh Ann, let me begin with you regarding Senator Thune, because in 2022, you interviewed him at a time when he was not backing Trump's candidacy, who did eventually endorse Tim Scott in the primaries.

Let me play some of his response to your question as to why Republicans do not stand up to Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

THUNE: There is a constituency out there that strongly supports him, and so, you know, clearly no Republican candidate for office wants to get opposite or at odds with a large part of that -- of our coalition. But that being said, I think I've been fairly straightforward going back a couple of years now that, you know, for particularly with respect to the 2020 election, but also as we think about the future, that we need new voices and new faces.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Well, we didn't get that clearly. Now, Trump is the president elect and he has butted heads with Trump multiple times. So I wonder what that means, Leigh Ann, for Trump's agenda this time. He's not a MAGA Republican. Does that mean that he could be something of a -- I don't know if guardrails is the right term, but someone who might temper the extremes of Trump's agenda?

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL, CO-AUTHOR, THE WASHINGTON POST "EARLY BRIEF": Well, that's the question, Jim. The Senate usually likes to act as an independent body. They like to usually act with their own voice, but what's clear now is that Donald Trump is demanding that Congress, the Republican House and the Republican Senate, are loyal to him.

He's saying that he has a mandate that many of these senators are in the Senate because of him. He not only handpicked them, he helped them win their reelections. And I am not finding a lot of dissent or willingness to even speak out of or potentially talk about trying to push back on any of the president's agenda, even things that are not traditional Republican orthodoxy like tariffs or some of these unconventional cabinet picks, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Okay, let's talk about another factor going forward that is the Senate filibuster. Thune, Jeff Zeleny, was asked whether that survives. And he said quite clearly -- clearly, it's going to remain unchanged. Does that stand up if Trump, for instance says, actually, I want this really badly let's kill it?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: We'll see. I mean, Senator Thune is going to have a very difficult time operating his majority in a vacuum. I mean, this is the Trump show. This is the Trump Republican Party. It's extraordinary. For all the differences in the eight years when he was coming in the first time versus now -- I mean, one of the biggest is the extent to which MAGA and that sort of brand of politics is on Capitol Hill from both chambers.

So I think that Senator Thune would have a difficult time standing up to Trump if he chooses to focus on the filibuster. I'm not sure he will.

Trump, A, is a one-term president at this point. So I'm not sure how far he's thinking down the road on this. And there are consequences for doing away with the filibuster as we know. I mean, it's -- it's obviously one of the reasons that Mitch McConnell never did.

So I would be surprised if Trump focuses on that, first and foremost, but we'll see. John Thune won't -- likely will have a hard time stopping Trump in pretty much anything. The reason he got the job at all, the secret ballot.

SCIUTTO: Right.

ZELENY: That was central to the leadership election today. And that only happens at the beginning of the term. It happens rarely again.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. I mean, if members had to tweet, for instance, that they were Rick Scott as the choice, the outcome might be might be different.

Okay. So, Ron Brownstein, something Jeff noted that Trump said if he's a one term president because according to a pool reports, when he met with House members today, he said, quote, I suspect I won't be running again unless you do something, unless you say he's so good, we have to just figure it out. It's not the first time I've heard that question raised.

Are you certain that he will not attempt to run again?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I don't think anything is out of balance. I mean, you know, you look at every signal Trump is sending from his appointments, to his language, to his tweets is that he is going to pursue the maximalist version of the agenda he ran on. I mean, in 2016, when he lost the popular vote, he behaved as if he had a mandate and came out of the gate very hard with the Muslim travel ban.

For example, I think for all of those voters who voted for him because they wanted a better economy but weren't sure about some of the sharper edged elements of his agenda. The one quarter of Latinos who said they oppose mass deportation and voted for him anyway, that one quarter of pro-choice women who said they support legal abortion rights and voted for me anyway they are very likely going to get the sharpest edge version of this.

And you can see it in the appointments above all -- you know, this is not were not seeing the kind of deference to other power centers in the Republican Party.

[15:10:06]

This is someone who believes that he has conquered the party, that the party must fall in line behind him, and that I think, is what you're going to see right out of the gate, and for as long as they can maintain that unified control.

SCIUTTO: Leigh Ann, do you see devils advocate for a moment here? Do you see some tempering of that though, for instance, in Thune's victory as the Senate majority leader or in say, a Marco Rubio at State? I mean, Marco Rubio, though he is you know, bent the knee to Trump, certainly despite policy positions on a number of things are more mainstream than America First.

Are you seeing in some of these appointments, whether by Trump's choice or not, for instance, in the Senate leadership some tempering right of a MAGA push?

CALDWELL: I don't know yet. I think it's too early to tell, Jim, and the reason is, is because there was a -- you know, look at the Senate race, the reason, as Jeff said John Thune was able to defy the MAGA online pressure campaign is because it was a secret ballot.

But one thing about Trump's popularity is that he is so popular, and he has the support, the groundswell on the ground, the online movement people who will call senators who will do whatever Trump wants and that is an additional pressure that's going to be very hard for senators and Republicans to go against.

SCIUTTO: So, Jeff, on another topic because someone making their presence felt quite clearly is Elon Musk, quite close to the president. Trump has announced now that Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy, they're going to lead this Department of Government Efficiency DOGE, that's not by accident, why it has that acronym as you know.

I do want to play some of what they have said about this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VIVEK RAMASWAMY (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Shut down the FBI, shut down the ATF, shut down the CDC, shut down the U.S. Department of Education, fire 75 percent of the federal bureaucrats in Washington, D.C., and send them home packing because they never should have had that job in the first place.

ELON MUSK, TECH BILLIONAIRE: Your money is being wasted, and the Department of Government Efficiency is going to fix that government off your back and out of your pocketbook.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: We do have some news in just a CNN, and that is that Donald Trump has picked Tulsi Gabbard as his director of national intelligence. She absolutely, very much in the MAGA strain and quite well, the senior most intelligence official in the country. I want to get your reactions to that.

But on the point that Ramaswamy and Musk were talking about there, you know, politics well in this town, the thing about spending, right, is that once spending starts, it's hard to turn it off, right? Because people like spending for sure for certain things.

Are they -- what are the expectations that they're going to be able to accomplish the most extreme end of the cuts that they're talking about? I mean, Musk has talked about firing many thousands of federal workers.

ZELENY: Sure. Look, I'm skeptical that they can accomplish a lot of what they're saying on the campaign trail. But, look, we will have to see.

I mean, one thing that just a Department of Government Efficiency can't do is subvert the will of Congress. So that's where the spending actually comes through. So they would have to actually gather support for this which is possible, certainly.

But I mean, the bigger point on this or a point on this is a walking conflict of interest because Elon Musk makes billions of dollars in contracts from the federal government. So I'm -- you know, I don't think -- probably going too far out on a limb to say that he is likely not to rein in those contracts. So --

SCIUTTO: Yeah, I mean --

ZELENY: -- the reality here is there's a hypocrisy steeped in this.

But there are some things they could do with government efficiency. Sure. I mean, these have been tried in every administration, the blue ribbon commission kind of thing. This is a modern day version of that. We shall see.

But this is a -- you know, it's nothing that they can do on their own. So I'm a little skeptical.

SCIUTTO: It used to be that to serve in government, you couldn't own an individual stock, right? You had to own mutual funds so that there wasn't the impression of conflict of interest. That's still true for the small fish, but not for the most powerful ones, which is well, you know, maybe a story about the country.

But, Ron Brownstein, let's get to Tulsi Gabbard's appointment as DNI. I know a lot of folks in the intelligence agencies, this is perhaps the possibility of Ric Grenell as another one, probably the worst outcome in their view. BROWNSTEIN: Yeah, it goes with what I -- what I said before. I mean, if you look at the personnel appointments in general, he is sending the message that he is going to push to the furthest edge of the disruption that he -- that he talked about, you know, and how far Ramaswamy and Musk can get, you know, we go back to the Peter Graves commission under Ronald Reagan.

[15:15:02]

The reality is, is that, you know, you can weed out waste and inefficiency without making much of a dent in the federal government budget. You know, most of what the federal government does is spend to support seniors and Medicare and Social Security and Medicaid for long term care and national defense.

It's been this -- federal government has been described as an insurance company with an army. So you can massively cut federal spending only by changing what it does. And Ramaswamy actually gave you kind of a hint at that. I mean there's no way to achieve the results they want, you know, just by spending less on, you know, pencils and erasers.

I mean, you have to fundamentally retrench what the federal government does. And across all of these issues, Jim, you know, whether it's mass deportation, tariffs environmental regulations, spending, Trump actually has a lot of unilateral authority, especially given the reluctance of Republicans in Congress to resist him. So on some fronts, hell need Congress to go along. But on many of the things he is pledging to do, you can see from his appointments he intends to do them pretty much from day one.

SCIUTTO: And listen, you know, the general rule of thumb in Washington is that the other guys spending I'm willing to go after, but not my own, right? And certainly, I haven't heard Ramaswamy or Elon Musk talk about raising revenue right to deal with the national debt.

But before we go, Leigh Ann, your thoughts on Tulsi Gabbard as the highest ranking intelligence official in this country?

CALDWELL: Well, we know that Donald Trump wanted to reward Tulsi Gabbard for her support and her loyalty. I think it's a little surprising that she was put in this position. So, we're going to have to see that she's going to have to get confirmed, and if she's able to do that.

SCIUTTO: Good question on confirmation.

Jeff Zeleny, Leigh Ann Caldwell, Ron Brownstein, thanks so much to all.

Just after the break, we will get into another one of Trump's cabinet picks, the secretary of defense. What we know about the Fox News host and also Army veteran who he picked for the job.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:20:09]

SCIUTTO: Within minutes of Trump's announcement of Fox News host and Army veteran Pete Hegseth as his selection for secretary of defense, current and former senior military commanders began messaging and calling me with their reactions. Ridiculous, said one. An F-ing nightmare euphemism inserted said another.

These were senior commanders who have served under both Trump and Biden, and their critiques were not personal. None had anything negative to say about Hegseth. Their central concern is that they see President-elect Trump with these and other senior national security appointments, building out a team to put into action his America First agenda with lasting changes to U.S. foreign policy.

To that point, Hegseth, from his perch at Fox News, has long been a vocal proponent of Trump's America first agenda. The common denominator, one retired four-star general told me, is clearly loyalty. And while some loyalty is essential, slavish fealty is dangerous.

CNN chief national security correspondent Alex Marquardt has been following all these decisions by -- decisions by Trump. Alex, you, of course, have the Pete Hegseth appointment last night, overseeing many millions of those who work in the U.S. military.

Now, you have Tulsi Gabbard going to DNI. What has been the reaction you've been hearing from the military and intelligence communities?

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, really quite a bit of surprise, Jim. And I really think were seeing kind of two branches of choices that Trump appears to be making. I mean, there was a string of national security positions that he put names forward for like Mike Waltz as national security advisor or John Ratcliffe at the CIA.

We believe Marco Rubio is going to get named for State, but that is far from confirmed. And these guys are, you know, they're experienced, they\re hawkish. They're more traditional, if you will.

And then last night, out of the clear blue sky, we got this choice of Pete Hegseth for the head of the defense department. And you know, this is someone who is very much in line with the Trump values. And the Trump positions on the culture war of you know, the fact that the Defense Department has become woke and that woke generals need to be fired.

I mean, he has some really extreme positions, including that women should not be allowed in combat. He talks about the need to take critical race theory and die training out of the military academies.

And this is someone who, once you get past the shock inside and outside the Pentagon, you do hear some disappointment from current and former officials. I spoke with a senior uniformed official earlier today who said this is not a serious choice. Someone else who was recently in the Pentagon, pointing to the fact that he has absolutely no executive experience no policy experience.

This is as you point out, Jim, a massive bureaucracy of thousands and thousands of people, all around the world managing these wars and other conflicts and, you know, standing guard, and you've got the relationship with congress. This is not something that he necessarily has the experience to do.

So I think with Gabbard and Hegseth, there is a lot of surprise. There's going to be a lot of concern in both the military and the intelligence community, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Is it certain he gets confirmed, someone like Hegseth or even someone like Gabbard? I mean, it's hard to predict given the current makeup of Congress. And, by the way, of course, the GOP has a, you know, not a sizable but it's got a majority with some headroom there.

What do folks believe about chances at confirmation? And I think that's the key point, is that there is a majority with headroom. And I do think that this speaks to some confidence in the Trump camp and among Republicans that they can get these choices through.

I mean, it's not going to be without drama, you know, with these confirmation hearings look like whether it's in the Senate Intelligence Committee or the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that are at least half Democrats.

And so, those are going to be -- those are going to be pretty contentious with those Democrats digging in. Now, are there Republicans who defect? Right now, that's hard to see. And I think again, what you're seeing here is confidence from the Trump camp that they can get these -- these people through.

You know, earlier, before these -- these two latest Hegseth and Gabbard were named, I think those more traditional choices point to the fact that maybe there was less certainty, or at least they didn't want to risk those that razor thin margin in the Senate. But now, clearly, they think they can get these through. And the other people out there who we still have to keep an eye on are very much in that same vein of MAGA America first as Hegseth and Gabbard and those as, you know, Jim, are Ric Grenell and Ric Grenell and Kash Patel, who may also get senior national security roles.

SCIUTTO: And listen to your point about Hegseth opposing women in combat, there are women sitting in the U.S. Senate as you know, who served in the military themselves.

[15:25:08]

We'll see what their reaction will be.

Alex Marquardt, thanks so much.

All right. So let's dive deeper in. Sometimes you got to take a breath at the pace of the news. Retired air force colonel and CNN military analyst Cedric Leighton served his own time in the military. Tell us your thoughts on Hegseth. Does he have the experience and

crucially, the credibility to earn the respect of 2.1 million-strong U.S. military he will oversee or would oversee?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, yeah, well, Jim, I would say the short answer to that question is no, he does not have the experience at that level. You know, he's clearly led troops in you know, the small unit level and that's great. And that's what we expect of our junior officers.

His, you know, I think his current rank is major. I -- and that's, you know, a mid-level - mid-level rank, of the first field grade rank in the army. And that does not give you the breadth, the executive expertise, the executive overwatch, if you will, of, you know, something as big as the Department of Defense. It doesn't even compare to all the major commands that are out there, you know, the various commands that each of the services has to handle specific functions and specific geographic areas.

So it's one of those things where, you know when you look at his resume, his capabilities, he's a great polemicist, but he is not somebody who has that level of gravitas that you would expect of, say, a Leon Panetta or you know, a, you know anybody of the caliber that we've had in the past as secretary of defense.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this now, because Tulsi Gabbard at DNI not only is it an issue of experience, in her case, it's an issue of positions. She's someone who explored a personal diplomatic relationship on her own with the Syrian dictator Assad. She has echoed Russian talking points on Ukraine and other issues.

What does that mean for the intelligence community when you will have a leader who is publicly at odds with U.S. national security positions and U.S. intelligence assessments?

LEIGHTON: Yeah, that's an extremely difficult position for the entire intelligence community workforce.

And, you know, when General Flynn was the head of the Defense Intelligence Agency, people who used to talk about Flynn facts where he would actually make up a analysis in order to make things work. Well, the same possibility exists with Tulsi Gabbard. I -- you know, she was once a seemingly reasonable member of Congress, but that has changed. Clearly, the issues that she takes on, the positions that she espouses are definitely at variance with the accepted analysis from the Department of Defense and from the intelligence community in many cases.

And unless, you know, she is convinced in one way or the other that could have a major -- a major bad effect on the workforce and on our the quality of our analysis, quality of our intelligence and our ability to conduct operations and policy, quite frankly, all around the world.

SCIUTTO: Well, and quite open public contradiction on U.S. assessments of who its enemies and allies are, right? I mean, it's remarkable. One more question before we go, because the Wall Street Journal is

reporting that the Trump transition team is considering a so-called military warrior board to -- to fast track the removal of some generals and admirals, the most senior officers in the services that Trump deems lacking in leadership qualities.

What does this open up? Does this open up a loyalty test? Loyalty to Trump, that is, for senior military commanders?

LEIGHTON: Yes, potentially. I think it does. There are also reports indicating that senior officers will be asked to sign NDAs and an actual loyalty oath, and if any of that is true, that is alarming, to put it plainly. This is a situation where you have to have an apolitical military. They cannot be loyal to one particular person, but they must be loyal to the institution and to the government. And that means to the Constitution.

And that is exactly what were risking here, because the officers that are now at the three and four star levels are the ones that have a lot of combat experience and that is something that you don't want to lose through something like this. We're basically thinking they're -- you know, they're looking at this as if there's a problem, when in many cases there is not a problem that that as they see it, there are some issues, some challenges that need to be resolved as there always are in the Department of Defense.

[15:30:04]

But that is something that this would not solve by any stretch of the imagination.

SCIUTTO: Well, to highlight Trump's obsession with loyalty, you remember General John Kelly told me Trump admired the loyalty of Hitler's generals to Hitler, to him multiple times.

LEIGHTON: Yeah.

SCIUTTO: Cedric Leighton, thanks so much.

LEIGHTON: Yeah.

SCIUTTO: Coming up next, the Senate elects the next majority leader. He is South Dakota Senator John Thune. We're going to be live on Capitol Hill on those Republican leadership votes. There's also one underway for house speaker. And what they mean for how far Trump's power will extend.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: It's been a busy day in Washington, to say the least. So we do want to take you back to Capitol Hill, where as we noted earlier, Republicans have selected South Dakota Senator John Thune as the next Senate majority leader, among other moves we've seen today.

Here's what he said earlier today after his victory. Actually, we do have some breaking news just in to CNN, and that is that Donald Trump has chosen as his attorney general, Representative Matt Gaetz, someone who we should note faced some of his own legal troubles in recent years.

Katelyn Polantz, who covers law and justice for CNN, joins us now in a list of surprising appointments by the president-elect and ones where I have heard from quite senior officials, certainly in the U.S. military and intelligence community alarm.

Matt Gaetz at DOJ is up there. Tell us about Matt Gaetz and this election and what this means for the Department of Justice.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, first of all, Jim, this is Donald Trump's intent to nominate Matt Gaetz as attorney general. This is a position that runs the Justice Department, a very large organization for criminal law enforcement across the country and would require Senate confirmation.

Matt Gaetz has a quite a significant history. He has been under house ethics investigation for allegations of misconduct. He was investigated at one point or part of an investigation that was a criminal investigation that resulted in no charges previously during the Biden years but he is a person, too, politically that has made not a huge amount of friends across the entire tent of the Republican Party, he is someone that at times has been he was quite opposite Kevin McCarthy.

And this is a person that has often found himself at the middle of discussions about what he believed law enforcement should be doing in the country, and then at odds obviously, with the Justice Department, when there was that investigation -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Do we know what his public statements has be might be in such a role? Well, we are looking right now at what Donald Trump is announcing and what Trump is saying that he wants reform in the Justice Department.

That is what he posted on Truth Social just a few minutes ago, announcing that Representative Matt Gaetz of Florida is who he wants to have as his next attorney general. He also says in this Trump truth that the reform that's needed at the Justice Department would be ending partisan weaponization of the justice system. He believes that Matt Gaetz would end weaponized government protect the borders, dismantle criminal organizations restore Americans shattered faith and confidence in the justice department.

Now, that is something that a long line of people well-respected, both from the left and the right in the position of attorney general have tried to do make sure that there are prosecutions of gangs across the country. Whether Gaetz is up to that task is a real question.

SCIUTTO: Well, we should note the Justice Department investigated Gaetz for sex trafficking previously. Speaking of investigations.

Katelyn Polantz, thanks so much.

So let's go to Capitol Hill now. Lauren Fox joins me.

What reaction are you hearing to what is a slate now just in the last several minutes of I think one could reasonably say surprise, but also quite controversial appointments? Gaetz at DOJ, Gabbard at DNI, Pete Hegseth, the Fox News host at DOD. What's the reaction you're hearing on the Hill?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, it's really funny. You know, a few minutes ago I rushed over here because I'm standing outside of the Senate Intelligence Committee hearing. We are you know, trying to get members reacting to these recent announcements and I was trying to grab Senator Marco Rubio now that he was officially nominated. And obviously, we have seen a bunch of other nominations come through.

I think Matt Gaetz in recent moments is going to be really shocking for some of the members who are coming out of this meeting. They typically don't have their phones in these behind closed doors meetings. It is important to point out that Matt Gaetz is still under an ethics investigation in the House of Representatives.

He also was one of those folks who was leading the fight to oust Kevin McCarthy. Just a little over a year ago now, you know, he is someone who is seen as a rabble-rouser in the House. He's also someone who's seen as a pit bull for Donald Trump, in his pursuit of oversight in the House of Representatives.

So this is going to be a really interesting choice. And we should just remind everyone again that is the Senate who will decide whether or not he is actually confirmed to that post. So, we are still seeking reaction. Obviously, this news just broke moments ago and senators are sort of spread out across the Capitol right now.

But we are waiting outside of this hearing room trying to get additional reaction -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Lauren, can you remind our viewers who may not remember the details of what exactly Gaetz was investigated for by the DOJ and why he's still -- is under an ethics investigation in the House?

[15:40:01]

FOX: Yeah. Now, Gaetz has said that he is not guilty of any wrongdoing, but the investigation in the House Ethics Committee specifically deals with allegations of sexual misconduct. Now, again, we are still awaiting a final decision from the ethics committee, but they have been conducting that investigation for months now, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Lauren Fox, final question before we go, and it's early. This is just a nomination, not clear that he will be confirmed. But when you've asked folks about his, his and others chances for confirmation, say Hegseth, Gabbard, et cetera. Do they believe that this Senate majority will deliver the confirmations that Trump is looking for here? FOX: Well, certainly, there typically is an advise and consent role of the United States Senate and usually Republicans, if they have a Republican president, want to confirm the nominees that their president puts forward. But there are instances where a nominee hits roadblocks or a nominee is just vetted and I think that its going to be really interesting to see come January what happens with some of these nominees, from Tulsi Gabbard to now, this most recent nominee of Matt Gaetz.

SCIUTTO: And unlike secret ballot for Senate leadership, a confirmation hearing is quite public, so senators would have to go against the president elect.

Lauren Fox, thanks so much.

Quite a lot of news in the last several minutes. Coming up will Trump pardon the January 6th rioters? Those who assaulted the Capitol? There's some mixed messages from him and his transition team. Many of his supporters, including some of those rioters themselves, are counting on it. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Hostages and patriots. That is how Donald Trump described Americans who violently stormed the U.S. Capitol in protest of what they believed and Trump told them was a rigged election.

[15:45:01]

Many of them -- many hundreds, were ultimately sent to prison including for assaulting police officers on the campaign trail.

Trump has said repeatedly he would pardon many of them, sometimes even saying he would do so on day one as president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTIONER: My question to you is, will you pardon the January 6 rioters who were convicted of federal offenses?

TRUMP: I am inclined to pardon many of them. I can't say for every single one, because a couple of them probably they got out of control.

What they've done to these people they've persecuted these people. And yeah -- my, my answer is I am most likely if I get in, I will most likely, I would say it will be a large portion of them. You know, they've been early -- they've been very early on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Joining me now is Tim Heaphy. He's a former federal prosecutor, was lead investigator for the January 6 committee.

You know, more than most the evidence that led to the convictions of hundreds of those who assaulted the Capitol, many of them assaulting and injuring police officers. Tell me your reaction to hearing Trump say that. Now, of course, he's been elected, and you might very well be smart to expect that he delivers on that promise.

What's your reaction?

TIM HEAPHY, FORMER LEAD INVESTIGATOR, JANUARY 5TH COMMITTEE: Yeah, Jim. Horribly discouraging and it undermines the rule of law. It just can't be in this country that protest that becomes violent -- that violates federal criminal statutes, can be excused, right? We have a history in this country of serious disagreement and dissent against authority.

But it stops with speech and cannot stray into conduct. And if the president of United States forgives criminal conduct, that went well beyond speech that is, that undercuts the rule of law so my hope is that he left himself room in that answer and said many of them that there is some principled line that that he draws in terms of what conduct he'll excuse. It's all criminal, but there are degrees obviously, of criminality.

My hope is much closer to a very small number of people getting pardons, and the vast majority of them certainly anyone violence is convicted.

SCIUTTO: Is in part of the threat to the rule of law that Trump himself didn't face a legal reckoning in a court of law. There were, of course indictments, both from the special counsel, but also at the state level for his not just his involvement in crowd, as even Senator Mitch McConnell said that he did. But also his other various attempts to overturn the election that Americans never got their day in court on that in effect, it was left to the election, and now he's been elected and those cases go away.

HEAPHY: Right, yes, absolutely. There's no question that. Any time, either you excuse criminal conduct by pardoning it or it doesn't get in the front door of the courthouse or at least adjudicated. It eviscerates the rule of law. This country, regardless of politics, whoever's been president -- whoever's been attorney general has approached this as if criminal conduct has consequences.

If we stop short of that, Jim, and if those criminal acts do not lead to consequence, either because they're not pursued or they're excused after the fact, then yes, you absolutely undermine the rule of law.

SCIUTTO: Okay. So speaking of the rule of law, Trump has just chosen as his selection for Attorney General Matt Gaetz, who as our Hill reporter reminded is still under ethics investigation on the Hill and he was investigated by the Justice Department for sex trafficking and sex crimes with a minor.

You're a former federal prosecutor. Your reaction to the possibility of him leading that department?

HEAPHY: Yeah. I think as your reporter said in the previous segment, it's a nomination, not a sure thing that he'll get the votes even from Republican senators to be confirmed. My first reaction, Jim, is if I were still in the department, I'd have even more of a basis than ever to worry about the historic independence and integrity of the department. The department is full of men and women career again, not Republican or Democrat, but career public servants who turn the wheels of the federal criminal justice system. And my guess is that a lot of them are very concerned about either being told to do things they're not comfortable with or being prevented from doing things that that make sense. So it could lead to essentially an exodus of career people from the department.

SCIUTTO: The trouble with an exodus. And by the way I can't tell those people to stay on their job. And I could understand I could understand why they would do so is that then what stands in the way of turning the Justice Department into, well, first of all, weaponizing it.

I mean, Trump is, you know, always said he's against weaponizing it while at the same time out of the other side of his mouth, saying that he was going to prosecute many of his political opponents and enemies within, et cetera.

What would then be the check if any, on Trump or an Attorney General Matt Gaetz?

HEAPHY: Yeah. Good question.

I hope that a lot of those career people stay and do the right thing. The ultimate check in the criminal justice system is, is the people, right? It's jurors.

They can -- investigators can do a lot with the resources that they have. But ultimately, in order for someone to be convicted someone to go to prison, someone to have a criminal consequence, in a democracy, that requires regular people, right, 12 jurors making a decision to convict someone unanimously beyond a reasonable that.

The ultimate check is that, but what gets to them, right? That is the product of decisions by prosecutors. And I fear that those decisions will be impacted by ideology or politics to a greater degree than they used to be or should be.

SCIUTTO: Well, Tim Heaphy, I'm sure well be talking about these changes again. Thanks so much for joining.

HEAPHY: Thanks, Jim.

SCIUTTO: And we'll be right back with more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back.

Well, across Capitol Hill, shock at President-elect Donald Trump's choices. Several of them for senior positions.

In particular, one of the most recent, tapping Congressman Matt Gaetz to be attorney general. [15:55:03]

GOP Representative Don Bacon, who represents a swing state and just survived a reelection quite a close one, told CNN I got really no good comment.

House Appropriations Chair Tom Cole said: I know nothing about it. Quite a common answer when folks don't want to say anything.

Gaetz himself said it would be an honor to serve as President Trump's attorney general. In the last hour, we have seen Trump also announce his choice for director of national intelligence, the senior most U.S. intelligence official in this country.

As Tulsi Gabbard someone who has been at odds with U.S. intelligence assessments and bipartisan policies as to, for instance, who's responsible for Russia's invasion of Ukraine. That is Russia. Gabbard has said publicly she blames Ukraine and NATO.

This in a series of announcements from the president in recent hours. We'll continue to follow them and the reaction to them. Thanks so much for joining me today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.