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Trump Stuns Washington With Contentious Cabinet Picks; Humans Rights Watch Accuses Israel Of Mass Displacement In Gaza Amounting To War Crime; Biden & Xi To Meet For Final Time On Sidelines Of Summit; Paris Ramps Up Security For France-Israel Soccer Match; Source: Trump Offered RFK Jr. Health & Human Services Secretary Role. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired November 14, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:39]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. Thanks for joining me today on CNN NEWSROOM. And let's get right to the news.

At this hour, the political earthquake of President-elect Donald Trump's choice for attorney general, Matt Gaetz, is still sending aftershocks through Washington. It is the ultimate loyalty test for Republican senators. Do they back a right wing firebrand with limited legal experience, someone previously under DOJ investigation himself to be the nation's top law enforcement officers?

Senators, many stunned by the announcement, began to weigh in today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): At the end of the day, you got to have the votes and you better have the resume.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): He chose Matt Gaetz. Matt will come before the committee and he will be asked hard questions and we'll see how he does.

SEN. JOSH HAWLEY (R-MO): The president is entitled to choose his cabinet and I presume I'll support them.

SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R-TX): I think it's premature to be talking about recess appointments right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Gaetz resigned, effectively effective immediately from the House of Representatives, timing, which CNN confirms could also bury a damning ethics probe into a wide range of his conduct, including allegations of sex with a minor. You heard all that correctly.

Those findings were expected to be released this week.

We begin coverage on this truly remarkable appointment with Steve Contorno, who covers the Trump campaign and now the Trump transition team. Steve, how does the transition team explain this choice and what

specifically does President-elect Trump want him to do at DOJ if he is confirmed?

STEVE CONTORNO, CNN REPORTER: Jim, we had been hearing that Donald Trump was dissatisfied with the list of people he had been auditioning and interviewing for the role of attorney general, which is a position that he views as most important in his cabinet because he was incredibly unhappy with the individuals who had that job in his last term, and he believes in many ways they were the reason why he was ineffective as president.

And so, he had been looking for someone who would be not only a person who would shake things up in the Department of Justice, but also would be intensely loyal to him and he believes he has that in Matt Gaetz. One person close to Trump told us that this appointment, causing shockwaves, said, quote, people being in a state of shock was the goal. That's exactly what MAGA wants.

And Donald Trump believes that after last week's election, he has a mandate to execute the vision that he laid out quite explicitly during his campaign. He made no secrets about his plan to dismantle the Justice Department, to get rid of Christopher Wray as FBI director, and to root out the deep state. And Matt Gaetz is the person he is going to put in charge of that effort.

Now, the question remains, can he get 51 votes to confirm Matt Gaetz in the Senate? You've already heard some trepidations that many people have. Obviously, there have been several individuals who have been outspoken on the House side who do not like Matt Gaetz, but they won't have a say in this fight. And the pro-MAGA bent of the Senate is quite more substantial than it was eight years ago, when Donald Trump first emerged as president.

SCIUTTO: We should note it's what Donald Trump identifies as the deep state, though, as we've seen he identifies anything as the deep state that provides oversight over his actions. We've seen some experience with that.

Steve Contorno, thanks so much.

Let's go to CNN chief legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid.

This is sending shock waves through Washington. I mean, to Steve's point, shouldn't really be. I mean, Trump was quite public on what he intends to do as president. So how are officials currently serving in the DOJ responding to this?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, inside the walls of Main Justice, this news was met with shock and dismay. As you might understand there were some tears. People were hugging each other.

Obviously, this is the Biden Justice Department, though there are certainly career people who serve at Main Justice right now. It's also reached out to people who served in the Trump Justice Department, so people who are ideologically aligned with the president elect about this pick.

And across the board, they said that they had real concerns about this, and they were praying that at least the people who run the different divisions within the Justice Department, there's a criminal division, a national security division a tax division, they're hoping that at least those people were more mainstream and had the right experience and credentials for those posts.

Now, again, it's not just the congressman's appointment. It's what it portends for the Justice Department at large. As you said, Trump was pretty clear on the campaign trail how he wants to use the Justice Department. He wants to use it to go after his political adversaries. That is something that former Congressman Gaetz appears to be willing to do. And that's something that is very concerning to many people who work inside the Justice Department. Most of the work in there, right, it's going after elder fraud, a tax fraud, examining antitrust cases.

There's a lot of really serious work that goes on at the Justice Department and there's a real concern that that might be in jeopardy if this is the kind of person at the helm.

SCIUTTO: And, of course, there's the gross irony, right, that Trump has claimed weaponization of the Justice Department by his predecessor when he seems to be quite explicitly intending to do that here.

Paula Reid, thanks so much.

All right. So let's go to Capitol Hill. CNN's Annie Grayer is there.

This is notable because the House Ethics Panel planned to meet this week and release a report on Gaetz and alleged wrongdoing with minors as soon as Friday. So, what happens to that report now that he's resigned?

ANNIE GRAYER, CNN CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Well, Jim, that's what we are actively reporting and trying to figure out. But one thing that we do know is with Gaetz resigning the ethics committees investigation has to stop because that committee can only investigate sitting members of Congress. Gaetz formally sent in his resignation letter. He is no longer a member of Congress. That investigation is now over.

But the question that members on this committee and their staff are actively deliberating is what happens to the report because were told that from sources that the report was going to be released this week, they're debating precedent right now, behind closed doors, trying to figure out if they can still release this report. We've seen Senate judiciary Democrats calling for the report to be released because they want it to be included if Gaetz goes through the Trump's attorney general.

So there is a lot up in the air right now and a lot at stake with this report.

SCIUTTO: No question, if we see it.

Annie Grayer, thanks so much.

So here to break down the significance of this, law professor, former federal prosecutor Jessica Roth, and CNN -- sorry, senior political correspondent for "The Wall Street Journal", Molly Ball.

Good to have you both here.

Molly, I want to begin with the why Gaetz was chosen and I wonder if in this comment from one senior Trump adviser to Marc Caputo of "The Bulwark", we have the answer. He said and I'm quoting, everyone else looked at the A.G. as if they were applying for a judicial appointment. They talked about their vaunted legal theories and constitutional bullshit, again, quoting here, Gaetz was the only one who said, yeah, I'll go over there and start cutting f-ing heads. I'm cleansing that word for the sake of our audience here.

Is that why he was chosen, Molly Ball, because he was willing to carry out, in effect, the weaponization of the DOJ?

MOLLY BALL, SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, WALL STREET JOURNAL: That is certainly what our reporting suggests as well. I mean, we know from Donald Trump's statements on the campaign trail and otherwise that he's really got a bone to pick with the Department of Justice. He believes that it was weaponized against him. He believes that it has to be overhauled, root and branch. He believes that the deep state has to be forcibly removed.

And so, he's not looking for someone who sort of knows the ropes and wants to tweak things around the edges. He really wants to overturn the whole way of doing business of this massive federal agency and, beginning, you know, eliminating the traditional independence of the Justice Department from the president is only the first step as far as he's concerned. And so I think this pick is absolutely in keeping with that.

SCIUTTO: So the Justice Department looked into these allegations of sex with a minor decided not to charge back in 2023, but the lawyer for the woman who was then a minor and who was a focused of the sex trafficking investigation, posted on X today in reaction to this: Mr. Gaetz's likely nomination as attorney general is a perverse development in a truly dark series of events. We would support the House Ethics Committee immediately releasing their report. She was a high school student and there were witnesses.

From a legal standpoint, what happens now? Does this report -- I mean, are we only going to see it if someone leaks it, right? Or and whether or not we see it, is there any legal process to pursue what he says are still substantial allegations?

BALL: I don't think --

SCIUTTO: Sorry, that was for Jessica. That was for Jessica, Molly. Apologies.

JESSICA ROTH, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: Excuse me. So it comes down to the House rules about whether or not the report actually can see the light of day.

[15:10:01]

But in terms of whether there is recourse for the person who -- who made the complaint about -- about the conduct in terms of actually getting a prosecution brought generally. No, I mean that is -- that is a choice of prosecutorial discretion whether to bring a criminal charge.

The tradition of the Department of Justice is to do so without regard to political considerations.

SCIUTTO: Right.

ROTH: I mean, one of the things that's so troubling about the possible nomination of matt Gaetz for this position is that he has displayed a disregard for these norms of professionalism that are dear to the Department of Justice. Of course, if he's actually the attorney general, I think we can be very clear that there would be no prosecution brought of him. But it's precisely this issue about independence that makes the Matt Gaetz potential nomination so troubling.

SCIUTTO: So, Jessica, let me ask you, just from a legal standpoint, can the Senate in its role for advice and consent to the president in terms of confirmation say, hey, listen, we have a right to see this House ethics report as we make our judgment, even though its from a from a different branch. And even though he has now resigned from the House, can they make a legal or constitutional argument?

ROTH: Well, I don't know exactly how this would unfold. I mean, when it comes to sort of legal demands between the different branches of Congress, I mean, these are issues that generally don't get litigated in the courts these are in large part political questions between the two branches.

But certainly as a matter of comedy, one could imagine them saying, we want to see this and we think we need to see it in exercising our constitutional duty to provide advice and consent. So I don't see this being a question that would be litigated in the courts so much as a back and forth. And then a question under the house rules of whether there's a mechanism for the House to vote to actually release it.

SCIUTTO: Okay, Molly, lets talk about the politics here, because you know, in typical Washington fashion, you might hear Gaetz say, this is a Democratic plot when in fact, Republicans have been some of the most vocal critics of Matt Gaetz. That goes right up to Kevin McCarthy, the former speaker.

But I want to play a sound from Republican Senator Markwayne Mullin from Oklahoma about his opinion of matt Gaetz as expressed to our Manu Raju last year. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): He was accused of sleeping with an underage girl and there's a reason why no one in the conference came and defended him, because we had all seen the videos he was showing on the House floor that all of us had walked away of the girls that he had slept with. He bragged about how he would crush ED medicine and chase it with -- with an energy drink so he could go all night.

I completely trust President Trump's debut at the same time, he's got to come to Congress and sell himself. And if he can, then we'll -- we'll go through the confirmation process.

SCIUTTO: Are all Republicans, Molly Ball, going to have as dramatic a transformation as Markwayne Mullin there who went from being disgusted by the videos he was sharing to saying, well, things will probably be okay for him?

BALL: Well, they're certainly not there yet. We're hearing a lot of skepticism on Capitol Hill, from Republicans specifically, from Republicans in the Senate. You know, Matt Gaetz has made a not a lot of enemies. I think he might objectively be the most hated person in the House of Representatives, certainly in the House Republican conference.

I mean, when the whole Kevin McCarthy battle was going on, when Gaetz was responsible for ousting the speaker of the house, his colleagues had a lot of nasty things to say about him, about his character, and also about his tactics and his sort of willingness to rock the boat. And he has always sort of relished that image as -- as a sort of chaos agent uh, but it means that he doesn't have a lot of allies when it comes to something like this, where he is going to need friends on Capitol Hill.

So, you know what were hearing from a lot of Republican senators right now is a sort of wait and see approach, saying he's going to have to go through the same vetting process of everybody as everybody else and face tough questions in his confirmation hearing. But they're -- they may be speaking more forcefully to the Trump transition team about whether they even want it to get to that point.

SCIUTTO: You know, as I was considering this evidence here and a confirmation hearing at some point, it made me think of Christine Blasey Ford coming during the Kavanaugh confirmation hearings, and attesting to what she alleged was a sexual assault many -- many years, many decades before.

Can you see, Jessica Roth, a situation, the confirmation hearing where the Senate might call and obviously it would be up to her and her lawyer and her family whether she would accept such a call, but might call the woman who accused him of this behavior before the Senate?

ROTH: Yes, I could foresee that situation. And that would be a way to get her testimony before the senate. Even if for some reason the Senate didn't have access to the House Ethics Committee report and other witnesses could come forward.

[15:15:07]

I mean, as I understand it, the Ethics Committee investigation covered matters beyond this particular complaint. And so, it could be that other individuals with information about other allegations could testify before the Senate as part of that confirmation hearing.

SCIUTTO: We'll see if it happens.

Before we go, Molly, you know, it struck me yesterday there was the outrage and we've seen it before, and the surprise on the Hill to this choice. And then today, I saw Robert Costa reporting that, well, he spoke to a lot of senators, senators who said, well, not quite sure we have the energy to challenge Trump on this one or on too many.

And I think oftentimes we overstate the taken in the face of decisions like this one. And based on your own reporting, Molly, do you see? And again, it's early. It's only been 24 hours. Do you see Republicans standing up to President Trump on this one?

BALL: I think that this is going to be a real a really telling episode for exactly that reason. Look, Trump is laying down a marker here. He is with not just this nomination, but certainly the Tulsi Gabbard nomination, and potentially others as well.

He is, you know, and he and I think he and he did this, you know, on a day that was otherwise about Republican unity with the election of a new Republican Senate leader and, and reelecting at least among the conference, the speaker of the House.

So this is Trump's not making any, uh any mystery about where he intends to go. He is going to forcibly challenge the way business has always been done in Washington, and its going to be up to the Republicans, whether they want to have any resistance to that or not.

SCIUTTO: No question. And, by the way, should not come as a surprise because Trump was quite public with this for years. It's in the public sphere. It's on the record. It's on video.

Molly Ball, Jessica Roth, thanks so much.

Coming up, what to expect from President Biden's trip to Peru, where he is headed right now. That will include his likely final meeting as president with the Chinese President Xi Jinping.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:20:15]

SCIUTTO: A new Human Rights Watch report on Gaza accuses Israel of carrying out a deliberate, systematic campaign of forced mass displacement of Palestinians. It says the policy is a state sponsored war crime that appears to meet the definition of ethnic cleansing. The State Department says it disputes reports of Israel forcibly displacing Gazans, adding the U.S. has not made such an assessment.

CNN's Jeremy Diamond has our report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For more than a year, this scene has played out in Gaza day after day on an endless loop, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians forced to flee their homes in an elusive quest for safety, spurred by Israeli bombs and missiles, as well as military evacuation orders.

REAR ADM. DANIEL HAGARI, IDF SPOKESPERSON: For your immediate safety, we urge all residents of northern Gaza and Gaza City to temporarily relocate south.

DIAMOND: Israeli officials say these leaflets and the other warnings are evidence of its efforts to minimize civilian casualties.

Human Rights Watch, a U.S.-based watchdog, says Israel's evacuation system has not only failed to keep Palestinians safe, but amounts to war crimes and crimes against humanity. In a 154-page report analyzing 184 evacuation orders, Human Rights Watch concluded that Israel's actions have intentionally caused the mass enforced displacement of the majority of the civilian population of Gaza.

The report calls Israel's evacuation orders inconsistent, inaccurate, and frequently not communicated to civilians with enough time to allow evacuations, and says designated evacuation routes and safe zones were repeatedly attacked by the Israeli military.

NADIA HARDMAN, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: I've spoken to people who, yes, they saw the evacuation orders to leave, but they couldn't follow them because the attacks had already started. The routes that they were told to take to get to so-called safe areas were being bombarded at the same time, and once they got to those safe areas, they weren't safe. Attacks that we verified happened in those so-called safe zones.

DIAMOND: The Israeli military said its evacuation orders are part of significant efforts to mitigate harm to civilians, and that it is committed to international law and operates accordingly.

The United Nations estimates 1.9 million Palestinians have been displaced during the war, more than 90 percent of Gaza's population. Today, Northern Gaza is the focus of that displacement, as the Israeli military mounts one of its most devastating offensives yet.

This woman says, Israeli loudspeakers blasted a warning to residents. It was saying either get out or die, one of the two. So we left with our children, taking only what we could carry, she says they without food or water, just the clothes on their backs.

Fleeing is one thing, finding safety is something else altogether. Yet another school turned shelter for the displaced was struck Thursday by the Israeli military emergency rescue officials say four people were killed, including two children. Yet another reminder that nowhere in Gaza is truly safe.

Jeremy Diamond, CNN, Tel Aviv.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: A child's shoe there in the midst of the blood.

Jeremy Diamond, thanks for that report.

Well, turning now to the APEC summit kicking off in Peru. This will be the first gathering of several world leaders since the U.S. election, including President Joe Biden and the Chinese President Xi Jinping.

The renewed prospect of Trump's America First doctrine is expected to be a key topic this year. Many are concerned about the implications on the global economy, international conflicts U.S. alliances as well. Another major moment at the summit is President Biden's likely final meeting as president, with President Xi.

CNN's senior White House correspondent Kayla Tausche joins us now from Lima, Peru.

Given the ongoing tensions between China and the U.S. and efforts in recent months to at least reestablish dialogue, I wonder what are we expect to come out of this meeting.

KAYLA TAUSCHE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, expectations are incredibly low for this meeting. Officials that I've spoken with have called it a bookend discussion, essentially a check in after the two leaders held an expanded bilateral meeting at the APEC summit that was held in San Francisco last year.

Now after that bilateral meeting, the two agreed to increase military to military communication and also to take action to curb illicit fentanyl trafficking.

Now, on the military to military communication, some initial progress was made, but then it took months before that communication actually reached the theater command level and it took a call between Biden and Xi to actually get that in place.

So, clearly, there have been some hiccups in the relationship even since that bilateral meeting. And it's unclear what, if any, deliverables or progress could come out of this meeting given that many China experts expect that President Xi will withhold any potential bargaining chips that he has for the incoming president, President-elect Donald Trump who is sure to launch a bevy of new tariffs against China and try to open up trade negotiations with China once again. So there's really no incentive here for President Xi to give anything to President Biden, although the photo op between the two will be important because they have known each other for quite some time -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: So, Trump, of course, threatening a massive hike in tariffs. I wonder what the discussion is there about the effects of that, because it's not just on China, of course. I mean, he plans to target many U.S. allies as well.

TAUSCHE: Yeah, there is a lot of conversation about that behind the scenes.

When I talk to U.S. officials about their posturing at both this APEC summit, which is a summit of 21 economies focused really on the Asia Pacific and the G-20, which will be taking place in Brazil shortly after this there is this very awkward dynamic here, as many of these world leaders are posturing amongst themselves about how to deal with the second Trump administration and how they're trying to immunize their economies from the threat of tariffs and export controls and other actions bilaterally that President-elect Trump is sure to take once he gets into office.

Now, when I talked to the Biden administration about what conversations they're having, they say these countries are not talking to us about this. They don't want anything to do with us on these issues. They know that we can't help them. It's really the problem solving that they're having to do on their own, but they feel like they've seen this movie before and they're going to do whatever they can to try to protect their economies and prove to the president-elect that they're doing the things that he has asked them to do on the campaign trail to try to thwart some of those threats.

SCIUTTO: Kayla Tausche in Lima, thanks so much.

TAUSCHE: Sure.

SCIUTTO: Coming up, we're going to be live in a Paris suburb where authorities are ramping up security for an international soccer match now underway, featuring an Israeli team whose fans were victims of antisemitic attacks in Amsterdam last week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:30:54]

SCIUTTO: France is adding security for today's international soccer match against Israel. Four thousand police officers deployed across Paris and around the stadium where that match is taking place. Now earlier today, pro-Palestinian protesters gathered in the Paris suburb to oppose holding the match during a time of war. This comes on the heels of attacks against Israeli soccer fans in Amsterdam last week.

CNN senior international correspondent Melissa Bell joins us now from just outside Paris.

And, Melissa, I wonder if you've seen any or witnessed or heard reports of any similar attacks. And I understand that as the match got underway, the Israeli national anthem was booed.

MELISSA BELL, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And what we've seen inside the match are really minor scuffles, but still between fans, with some of them trying to get at each other still, what we've seen is around the Stade de France, a security perimeter that's been put in place really designed to ensure that no harm can come to the very few Israel supporters who've turned out tonight.

We'd expected in this stadium of some 80,000 people, maybe 15,000, 20,000 people to turn up. When you look at the bleachers, they are pretty empty. And that speaks to this really impressive perimeter that the police forces have put in place. You have to go through several checkpoints to get this far.

We had been earlier tonight, Jim, about two kilometers away to a pro- Palestinian protest. It was relatively small, but after the events here in Paris last night, which has seen many people turn to the streets, not just pro-Palestinian voices, the usual suspects that you see come out of these times, but moderate Israeli voices as well, and certainly pro-Jewish French groups worried about Israel's policies in the Middle East.

They too had turned out to demonstrate yesterday on the sidelines of an event that was held to raise funds for the IDF, and in support of Israel.

So it's an important reminder of how high tensions rise here in Europe, Jim, over events in the Middle East. They were underlined by what we saw in Amsterdam last week, that violence that was meted out over the course of the Thursday night against Maccabi Tel Aviv fans who had come to support their side in that here in Paris. So far, the point of Parisian authorities has been to keep any pro-Palestinian protesters away physically from anyone who might have come as far as Paris to support Israel.

And remember that the Israeli authorities have urged fans not to leave Israel not to travel away for football fixtures, and that might have something to do with the few numbers we expect here tonight, Jim.

SCIUTTO: How has the Macron government itself addressed the threats, the tensions?

BELL: What's interesting about the match here tonight is there aren't that many people inside the Stade de France, but there are three French presidents, the current and two former Nicolas Sarkozy and Francois Hollande, they've all come out in a show of support against antisemitism generally, and to show their support for Israeli fans who might have come out here.

And yet what that belies is the growing European opposition to what the Israeli government is carrying out in Gaza and you've seen growing calls for a European wide ban on arms sales to Israel. Individual countries here in Europe have already either restricted or banned arms sales to Israel. But you're seeing growing calls that this should happen in the European level. So much greater calls, even amongst the political classes, that something can be done to hold Benjamin Netanyahu's government to account for what -- how the war has been prosecuted and still a steadfast support on the part of the French state against antisemitism in all of its expressions, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Melissa Bell, thanks so much for covering there.

Well, after nearly 20 years, Senate Republicans have a new leader. Coming up, what we know about South Dakota's John Thune.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: There's a new era of leadership in the U.S. Senate. This morning, South Dakota Senator John Thune stepped first time with a new title, incoming majority leader. He assumes the top job as an ally of Mitch McConnell's and at times, adversary of Donald Trump's and a man whose salt of the earth style helped him oust Democratic Party leader Tom Daschle 20 years ago.

Here he is reflecting on his childhood and his governing style today, on the floor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN THUNE (R-SD): My philosophy of leadership is inspired by my dad. Some of you know that I played basketball growing up. He hated ball hogs. He wanted me and my siblings to be team players.

He always believed that if there was somebody else who had a better shot than you did that you got him the ball and that's my goal as leader. To pass the ball to the best positioned player to empower everybody on the team.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Everybody loves a sports story, a philosophy to guide what is a herculean and very real task. How does Thune lead a new Republican Party engage with the president elect and maintain what senators like to call the world's greatest deliberative body?

For answers, we're turning to someone who knows the senator well. Stu Whitney covers politics for "South Dakota News Watch".

Stu, thanks so much for joining.

STU WHITNEY, REPORTER, SOUTH DAKOTA NEWS WATCH: Appreciate it, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Let's go back if you can to the beginning. I want to play Senator John Thune closing message in his race to defeat Tom Daschle 20 years ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

THUNE: Things that need to get done aren't getting done today in the United States Senate because of partisanship and political games. Tom has had 26 years in Congress but he's not listening to us anymore. And he's not leading the people of South Dakota. He is following his national party's agenda and South Dakota is paying the price.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Tell us more about Thune's introduction to Washington. And did he deliver on that message, that bipartisan message?

WHITNEY: Well, you know, it kind of shifts with who has control of the body in Washington and things have changed quite a bit since then.

[15:40:05]

There is some symmetry to it 20 years later. That was one of the most consequential elections in South Dakota history in 2004. And for Thune to sort of have his moment 20 years later, as he said yesterday, kind of a full circle moment. This is a situation where, you know you mentioned him being kind of a team first guy and his dad and stealing team first, you know? Well, team first, clash with America first. We're going to find out pretty quickly.

As you alluded to, Thune is not always had a -- he's had a certainly a frosty relationship with President-elect Trump. It goes back to the Access Hollywood tape being leaked and Thune coming out publicly and saying that Mike Pence should take over the ticket. He was not buying into a lot of the election conspiracies or lies following the 2020 election, which caused Trump to lash out and call him a RINO.

And I think a lot of people in South Dakota. You know, John Thune has been a regardless of whether you believe with his politics or not, has been a pretty consistent, principled conservative for 30 years in public office. And so, the RINO tag, I think is emblematic of where we are in politics these days when John Thune can be called Republican in name only.

SCIUTTO: So let me ask you this, though, because he's going to be tested, right? I mean, his conservatism is going to be tested with confirmation hearings for nominees like a matt Gaetz at DOJ or Tulsi Gabbard at DNI.

Does he have the political will, in your view to stand up to Trump for some of these more extreme appointments and positions when he disagrees with him?

WHITNEY: The policies just like anyone else, when it was expedient he sort of, has changed. He's first endorsed Tim Scott in 2024. I think he, like some other establishment Republicans, were hoping that Trump would sort of go away. That clearly did not happen. The reverse happened.

But I do think that he is maybe with the exception of his mentor, Mitch McConnell, believes in the tradition and regular order of the Senate. And so I know it pains Thune to say that recess appointments are a possibility. I think he said that in the run up to the vote, as Rick Scott was gaining momentum from some of the MAGA influencers and perhaps Trump himself.

So, I mean, Thune was saying some things that maybe led some people in Mar-a-Lago to think that, that he would just play ball with this. Now he's -- he's been voted in. He is the Senate majority leader. It's been insulated in the past. I think he's still I would hope, like everyone still believes in the Constitution, the separation of powers. And, so I to answer your question, I think he will be uncomfortable with letting some of these appointments sort of slide through without regular hearings and regular order.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. What's the state of his relationship then with Trump? Because Trump has had I mean, there have been folks who criticized him in quite strong terms. Marco Rubio is one of them who then flipped. And Trump has rewarded Marco Rubio, for instance, as secretary of state. And there's been some reporting that Trump actually likes the folks who flipped better to some degree, because they've truly proven their loyalty to him by, well, changing their tune.

I wonder where Thune's relationship with Trump stands, in your view?

WHITNEY: I don't think he's flipped to the extent that someone like Rubio has. Thune was not campaigning with Trump. He was too busy campaigning for his fellow Republican senators, spent a lot of time in the road, trying to make sure that Republicans got the Senate majority, raised a ton of money in that regard.

And he does not have aspirations beyond the Senate and he has reached the apex of the Senate in his mind, as Republican majority leader. So I don't think he's as susceptible to some of the whims. I'm not saying that he is not bent some of his rhetoric to favor -- for favor himself, politically. He has, but not to the extent of some of these others.

SCIUTTO: Right.

WHITNEY: And, you know, I just think its they both see an opportunity here. You've got the trifecta, you've got a conservative Supreme Court. So it's definitely a strange bedfellows -- strange bedfellows that are hoping to get some things done.

SCIUTTO: Well, there will be a lot of tests going forward, especially on how far he's willing to go with confirmation hearings, assuming they happen. Does it all happen during recess? As the president wants? President elect wants to?

Stu Whitney, we do appreciate you joining.

[15:45:03]

WHITNEY: Thanks, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Well, we will watch what Senator Thune does in his new role. As for McConnell, he said today he is, quote, looking forward to taking on this next chapter from a different seat on the Senate floor.

We'll be right back with more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: The Republican control of Congress means Trump will have very little trouble pushing through his agenda, some of it quite extreme.

He has vowed to carry out mass deportations of illegal immigrants and has already chosen two vocal immigration hardliners to join his second administration.

CNN's Rosa Flores has more on what this could mean for Latino families facing possible deportation, even those who supported the president elect.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: How many of you are U.S. citizens?

How many of you support Donald Trump?

You're undocumented and you support Donald Trump.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I support Donald Trump for the economy.

FLORES (voice-over): Two Hispanic families with mixed legal status in Houston with two different takes on President-elect Donald Trump's return to the White House.

This is the Espinosas' first gathering since Trump's win.

How many of you fear that deportation could impact your family?

Cesar Espinosa, a husband and father, was a DACA recipient until this summer when he got a green card. His sister and brother in law are DACA recipients. His sister in law is a green card holder and the rest of his family here are U.S. citizens. Some who are not present are undocumented.

You're a green card holder. Your wife is a U.S. citizen. Why are you afraid of deportation?

CESAR ESPINOSA, FEARS DEPORTATION UNDER TRUMP: I just became a green card holder after 33 years of being in this country. I don't think people understand the fear. It's a constant shadow hanging over our heads.

FLORES: What was your reaction to Donald Trump winning?

KARYNNA ESPINOSA, FEARS FAMILY MEMBERS COULD BE DEPORTED: I cried a lot. It was -- it was emotional. Half of my family, right, if they're going to be here or they're not going to be here, and how do you tell all of our kids, like my nephews, they're also our kids.

C. ESPINOSA: To tell people that doesn't live in kids and children's minds and teenagers and young adults life is a lie.

FLORES: Gelacio Velazquez (ph) is an undocumented mechanic who has worked in Houston for 25 years.

He plays in this park with his two U.S. citizen children ages five and nine, and stands by Donald Trump.

[15:50:07]

So you support Donald Trump because of the economy.

GELACIO VELAZQUEZ, UNDOCUMENTED TRUMP SUPPORTER: For the economy, yes.

FLORES: But you don't support the anti-immigrant rhetoric.

VELAZQUEZ: I'm not supporting the anti-immigrant action.

FLORES: Do you support his mass deportations?

VELAZQUEZ: No, it's not human.

FLORES: Are you afraid that you could be deported in this mass deportation?

VELAZQUEZ: I'm not afraid. I'm not afraid.

FLORES: Espinosa runs a migrant advocacy group and says many people are afraid and have called him in tears.

C. ESPINOSA: I think there's a heightened sense of fear.

FLORES: Explain why Latino men are going to Trump.

VELAZQUEZ: Democrats forget the promise when these guys are in the office in Washington. The Latinos want a better nation.

FLORES: Espinosa believes some of the Latino support for Trump was a vote against the prospect of the first Black female president.

C. ESPINOSA: There's still a lot of machismo. There's still a lot of misogyny and something that we need to say aloud is there's a lot of anti-blackness.

FLORES: Velazquez says he hopes Trump finds compassion for immigrant fathers like him, who are not criminals.

If you get deported, would you regret your support to Donald Trump?

He's saying that he wouldn't regret supporting Donald Trump.

So you're really not thinking about yourself. You're thinking about your children and the future of your children.

VELAZQUEZ: Yes, I want the better for my children.

FLORES: Cesar says he feels guilty for bringing so much uncertainty to his family.

What's it like for you to see your wife go through this and the emotions that she's going through?

C. ESPINOSA: I apologize to her a lot. We fell in love right away and we got married almost right away. Because when you know, you know.

FLORES: We asked Velazquez and Espinosa the same final question.

Do you have a plan in case you get deported?

VELAZQUEZ: I respect that decision. I leave the country. I'm not coming back.

C. ESPINOSA: There is a plan. We've talked about it openly with our family. FLORES: It turns out, these two Hispanic families with two different

takes on Trump's win have the same plan. If they get deported, they would go to Mexico as a family.

Rosa Flores, CNN, Houston.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Breaking news on the Trump transition. CNN can report that President-elect Trump is on the verge of announcing Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to lead the Department of Health and Human Services. He formerly offered Kennedy the role and could announce it as soon as today. Trump promised to let Kennedy, a longtime skeptic of, in some cases, life saving vaccines, to quote, go wild on health and food policy.

Kennedy, as his name implies, is a member of the Democratic Party's political dynasty. He ran for president this cycle, first as a Democrat, then an independent then he dropped out to endorse Trump in August.

Lauren Weber joins me now for reaction. She's a health and science accountability reporter at "The Washington Post".

Can you just remind folks of the positions that RFK Jr. holds on, let's begin with vaccines?

LAUREN WEBER, HEALTH AND SCIENCE REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, RFK Jr., in recent months on the campaign trail has said he is not anti-vaccine. He's told our paper that several times. He's, I'm sure, told your network that several times, but he is the founder of an anti-vaccine group called Children's Health Defense. And he has repeatedly questioned the safety of vaccines and linked to a falsely linked them to autism.

And you know, even I think your network very recently interviewed Howard Lutnick who is a campaign co-chair for Trump, and said that he talked to Bobby Kennedy for a while and left with questions about vaccines. So, certainly, there is a lot of concern among the public health experts that I talked to about exactly where Kennedy does stand on vaccines today.

SCIUTTO: Let's talk about other positions. He's been an advocate for changes in food, including in school lunches, et cetera. What exactly is he focused on in targeting there?

WEBER: It's really interesting because he's really tapped in to -- I would say -- a movement both on the right and the left for healthier school lunches. It's fascinating because, frankly, a lot of what he's saying mirrors what Michelle Obama was saying, you know, back when she was first lady and pushing for healthier school lunches. He wants to get ultra processed foods out of kids' lunches. He wants to see, you know, dyes out of food.

It's somewhat fascinating, as it would seem to be a bit of a regulatory push and the food industry folks that, you know, we've been talking to at the post have said that it's really not something you typically see from a Republican administration.

SCIUTTO: No question. And just to be clear, has he changed all of his views on vaccines? I mean, the MMR skepticism was based on what was then found to be a hoax.

[15:55:04]

So, one researcher in the UK, there was just no scientific basis for it. Has he explicitly changed his view, for instance, on the MMR vaccine?

WEBER: He has explicitly been very clear to skirt around that, including with Kaitlan Collins with you all.

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

WEBER: I mean, he -- he basically will say he wants more data. He just wants to ask questions. He explicitly will say he's anti-vaccine, but I you know, if you pressed him on those beliefs, id be curious to hear what exactly he would say.

SCIUTTO: And to be clear, the fact that some people have gone away from that vaccine has led to a resurgence of measles in parts of this country. Has it not?

WEBER: Absolutely. We're seeing an uptick in measles. This year was the highest year on record for vaccine exemptions for kindergartners across the country. There's real concern, public health officials that I speak to where they're seeing cases of whooping cough or chickenpox increase in sections because there is a lot more vaccine reticence in light of a lot of COVID misinformation around the COVID vaccinations.

SCIUTTO: Lauren Weber, thanks so much for joining.

WEBER: Thanks for having me.

SCIUTTO: And thanks so much to all of you for joining me today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.