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Biden Approves Ukraine To Use Long-Range Missiles. Trump Picks Tulsi Gabbard For National Intelligence; Trump Wants Matt Gaetz As Attorney General; Israel Strike Kills Hezbollah Media Chief Amid Ceasefire Efforts; Trump Allies Push For Loyalist Kash Patel To Lead FBI; American Pilots Shoot Down About 70 Missiles And Drones. Aired 5- 6p ET

Aired November 17, 2024 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[17:00:00]

ELISA RAFFA, CNN METEOROLOGIST: So, you can see, that puts the Arctic circle in darkness and again, there it is for the next 66 days.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: Oh my gosh. It's so fascinating. All right, Elisa Raffa, thank you so much. And thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. The "CNN Newsroom" continues with Jessica Dean right now.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: You're in the "CNN Newsroom." I'm Jessica Dean in New York. And we begin this hour with breaking news. President Biden making a major policy shift in the use of U.S. weapons in Russia's war on Ukraine. After many months of discussions, Biden now giving the green light for Ukraine to use long range U.S. weapons inside Russia. It's not yet clear exactly the impact this will have on the battlefield.

A U.S. official telling CNN the weapons are intended to be used primarily to strike targets in Russia's Kursk region for now. Of course, that's where Ukraine made those surprise gains on Russian territory over the summer. Now, we're following all angles of this tonight. Let's go first to CNN Senior White House reporter Kevin Liptak, who is joining us from Rio where the G7 summit is being held. And Kevin, what more can you tell us about how Biden finally arrived at this decision?

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yeah, and this decision was a long time coming for President Biden. He had been under pressure from the Ukrainian president, Zelenskyy, in addition to a number of NATO allies who essentially said that without this capability, Ukraine had its hands tied behind its back as it works to battle against Russian aggression.

American officials say this does come at an inflection point in the war, as Russia masses tens of thousands of troops in that northern Kursk region, as it works to claw back some territory, it has been supplemented by thousands of North Korean soldiers and that has led to a great deal of alarm in Washington. Of course, you can also separate this from the fact that Donald Trump is coming into the White House in two months' time. He has obviously taken a very different approach to the war in Ukraine than President Biden.

He says that he could resolve the conflict in a day. He hasn't said how, but certainly the implication is that would require some territorial concessions on the part of Ukraine, which is something that Zelenskyy up until this point has been unwilling to do. Now we did just hear from the Ukrainian president responding to this decision. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE (through translation): The plan to strengthen Ukraine is the victory plan I had presented to partners. Long-range possibilities for our army is one of its major points. Today there is a lot of talk in the media about us receiving a permit for respective actions. Hits are not made with words. Such things don't need announcements. Missiles will speak for themselves, for sure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIPTAK: So essentially saying there that Ukraine's actions with these ATACMS missiles will speak for themselves. Now this decision had been subject to an internal debate inside the Biden administration. There were some who thought that this could be an escalatory move, could provoke the Russian president, Vladimir Putin.

There were also some current concerns from the Pentagon that the stockpiles of these ATACMS missiles just aren't very big and these resources at the end of the day are not unlimited. I think when you talk to officials, they did see the North Korean deployments into Ukraine as something of a tipping point. And President Biden certainly wants to send a signal to the North Korean dictator, Kim Jong-un, that he sends his troops into Ukraine at their own peril, Jessica.

DEAN: All right, Kevin Liptak reporting from Rio de Janeiro tonight. Thank you so much for that. President Biden's decision coming, as Kevin just mentioned. Russia deploys nearly 50,000 troops, including North Korean troops, to Russia's Kursk region, where Kyiv launched its surprise counteroffensive this summer. Our Fred Pleitgen is joining us now from Moscow. And Fred, any response yet from the Kremlin on this?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Jessica. Well, I've actually been in touch with a spokeswoman from the Russian Foreign Ministry and she told me, look, Vladimir Putin already responded to all of this three weeks ago, where Vladimir Putin did indeed lay out what Russia's change in strategy would be if exactly what was to happen, what happened now with the U.S. giving the go ahead for the Ukrainians to be allowed to use those longer distance weapons to strike deep into Russian territory.

And essentially what Vladimir Putin there said at the time is that that, as far as the Russians are concerned, would be a major escalation. They feel that if the Ukrainians use these U.S.-made weapons or U.S.-provided weapons to strike deep into Russian territory, that that essentially would be an attack from NATO or the United States directly against Russia. [17:04:58]

Vladimir Putin back then told a reporter that he believes that these weapons cannot be used, cannot be utilized without the help of NATO specialists or U.S. specialists to help make sure that those weapons get in on target. And so therefore, the Russians are saying that this would be direct involvement by the U.S. or other NATO countries, because of course there are others who are also providing long distance weapons to the Ukrainians as well, that this would be a direct attack by them against Russia and would be considered as such.

And just to give you an indication, Jessica, to what extent the Russians have been trying to dissuade the Biden administration from making exactly the decision that it has now made, Russia even changed its fundamental nuclear doctrine, apparently, very much apparently, exactly for a scenario like this where the new thing in that doctrine is that if Russia gets attacked by a non-nuclear country, like for instance, Ukraine, with long-distance weapons, with the help of a nuclear country, like for instance, the United States, that this could trigger the Russians to use nuclear weapons on their part. So clearly the Russians have tried to dissuade the Biden administration from this and consider this a big escalation, Jessica.

DEAN: Yeah. And Fred, just before I let you go, how likely is this development will accelerate Russia's expected operation to attempt to retake the Kursk region?

PLEITGEN: Well, you know, I think that's something that is actually very much in full swing already. And one of the things that we're sort of hearing here and there here in Russia is that they believe that an operation to really retake that Kursk region could happen very quickly. The Russians, of course, have not given indications, like for instance, the U.S. has, how many Russian troops are actually on the ground there in the Kursk region. But of course, the U.S. believes its upward of 50,000, also with thousands of North Korean forces there as well.

There is the belief here that operation will start very quickly. It's unclear whether or not it's days or weeks away. But of course, the Russians for their part have also said that while the Kursk region is extremely important to them, they still believe that the main area for them where they really want to gain territory is in the east of Ukraine around in the Pokrovsk region, and Vladimir Putin has said that that's his main priority.

Nevertheless, of course, with the U.S. now allowing the Ukrainians to use those weapons, it could indeed accelerate the Russian plans to what extent is unclear as the Russians really already seem almost in a position to launch that campaign to try and reach Kursk today -- retake the Kursk region imminently. Jessica.

DEAN: All right. Fred Pleitgen in Moscow for us tonight. Thank you very much for that reporting. And joining us now former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations and President Trump's longest-serving national security adviser John Bolton. Mr. Ambassador, thanks so much for being here with us. I just first want to ask you about the breaking news that we've been reporting on. President Biden approving Ukraine's use of these long-range U.S. weapons inside of Russia. What do you think about that move?

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, it's the right decision. I'm just worried it's too little too late. This should have happened two years ago, and it's emblematic of the sad reality that although the United States wasn't able to deter the Russian invasion for this two and a half years, Russia has largely deterred the United States and NATO from providing adequate assistance to Ukraine on a strategic basis.

It's been one long public debate after another going back to shall we supply ATACMS to the Ukrainians at all. First, it's no then there's a debate then there's yes. Should we supply the Ukrainians Abrams tanks? First, it's no then there's a long debate then it's yes. Should we supply the Ukrainians with F-16s? First, it's no then there's a long debate and it's yes. Now, can we allow the Ukrainians to use ATACMS inside Russia? After a long debate, now it's yes.

But it's two months until Donald Trump is inaugurated and I think there's little doubt what's going to happen here. Aid to Ukraine is most likely to diminish significantly and it's I think the failure of the past two and a half years to supply weapons systems on a strategic basis, it's a major contributing factor to the military gridlock we see now.

DEAN: Yeah, the timing of all of this is pretty specific. And as our Kevin Liptak was reporting it, really, he says in the eyes of U.S. officials comes at what they're thinking of as an inflection point.

BOLTON: Well, the inflection point was the American election. There could have been an inflection point two years ago if the Biden administration, after completely bumbling the initial Russian attack. Remember, the intelligence assessment or the political conclusion about the intelligence was -- and brief to Congress, brief to Congress days after the Russian attack that Kyiv would fall in a matter of days and the whole country would fall in a matter of weeks.

That was one argument that persuaded the Biden administration not to put more weapons assistance into Ukraine even before the Russian invasion in February of 2022.

DEAN: And I want to ask your opinion. Russian President Vladimir Putin has previously warned that allowing Ukraine to use these long-range weapons inside Russia would mean the NATO allies are directly at war with Russia and that, quote, "appropriate decisions would be made to those threats."

[17:10:07]

We just heard Fred Pleitgen's reporting there about how they've changed the wording around their nuclear rules. Are you concerned about that piece of it?

BOLTON: Now there are two aspects to this. Number one, this threat of a wider war, that's the phrase we've heard day after day after day in the last two and a half years from the Biden administration, could be conventional, could be nuclear. If it's a conventional threat, where's the Russian army that's going to provoke this wider war? And by the way, if it's so good and so extensive, why isn't it fighting in Ukraine in the first place given the miserable performance of Russian combat arms so far?

And as to the nuclear threat, look, that change in Russian doctrine it was insignificant. We have never renounced the first use of nuclear weapons if we need to and basically that's all they're saying. We have testimony from the heads of U.S. intelligence agencies in public sessions that despite multiple rattlings of the nuclear saber by Putin and others, there's never been a redeployment of Russian nuclear forces. I'm not saying you don't take it seriously, but if Putin can out bluff us, he gets what he wants for free.

DEAN: I want to move on and talk a little bit more broadly about the incoming Trump administration. You note that that's happening very soon and then that will change not only the positioning likely in Ukraine but more broadly a lot of foreign policy. I want to talk first about who the president-elect has selected for his director of national intelligence, former congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard.

You have described her as a national security threat. What do you think just letting -- having now had that information kind of set in and seeing that he is confident in pushing her forward, what do you think generally about that pick if we can just get a little more thought on that? And then also too, what might that mean for the war in Ukraine where she has been known to spout some Russian propaganda?

BOLTON: Well I think in the transition period there's always a lot of blue smoke and mirrors from the incoming administration. This is a very serious mistake if Tulsi Gabbard is allowed to take over as Director of National Intelligence. To begin with, she has zero experience dealing with the intelligence community and that position was set up by Congress, mistakenly in my view, but they set it up to coordinate all intelligence agencies within the government.

She doesn't have the slightest idea what the job involves. As a member of Congress, she got intelligence briefings that she often said she didn't believe. I don't think she has any basis on which to manage this huge and critically important function of the federal government. And number two, she has over the years spouted delusional beliefs about events in Syria, about events in Iran, about Russian policy, that her own fellow members of Congress have set them out to repeating Russian propaganda.

She's not capable of doing it. Her judgment is nonexistent. And the idea that somehow, she would be put in charge of this critical function should be giving our adversaries in Moscow and Beijing a lot of relief.

DEAN: Do you expect the Senate Republicans to push back on this?

BOLTON: Well, I certainly hope they should. Gabbard and Gaetz are the two worst appointments. There are others that are in controversy, but those are the two worst. Just because Donald Trump won a fairly narrow majority, maybe less than two percentage points, and an Electoral College victory, all of six Electoral College votes bigger than his 2016 win, is no excuse for the Senate to abandon its constitutional function.

And I think there will be enough Republicans, maybe not a majority. but enough to block these nominations. And if they're not, we're in deep trouble.

DEAN: Yeah, and you bring up Matt Gaetz. I did want to ask you about that. You've called him the worst nomination in American history. Elon Musk responded to you on X, calling you a, quote, "warmonger," saying your opposition to this pick is a good sign. I want to let you respond to that. I also want to get your thoughts on the role that Elon Musk is playing in this incoming administration.

BOLTON: Well, I don't particularly care about Elon Musk's opinion. He has no notion what the qualifications for attorney general are, and I think somebody with Matt Gaetz's characters is a person that I'm surprised anybody wants to associate with. Look, Musk may have a big role here. It's not entirely clear what Trump is going to do with this Department of Government Efficiency. If we can save a couple hundred billion dollars, I'd be delighted. We can spend it on the defense budget, which desperately needs an increase.

[17:14:55]

In the meantime, I do believe that a sufficient number of Republican senators would say they will not abandon the separation of powers. They will see Gaetz as the threat that he is to the kind of professional Justice Department we want.

If the complaint from Trump is the Department of Justice has been politicized by the Biden administration, then the remedy is depoliticize it. Matt Gaetz is exactly the opposite of that. He will make it worse. and I think it caused problems in the department that could take decades to repair.

DEAN: And I know you've called for the FBI to investigate both Gabbard and Gaetz before any Senate confirmation hearings. We know that the Trump administration is looking to not to do these FBI background investigations and checks before putting them up formally for their nominations. How do you think, again, just getting back at this, just what Senate Republicans might say about this and do you think it's worth them really pushing back on this if they're not getting all of the information, they need to properly vet these individuals?

BOLTON: Yeah, look, these FBI background investigations are absolutely customary for all cabinet nominees and most of the senior appointments below the cabinet level. They're not singling out Gaetz or Gabbard to put them through this process. And particularly when you're talking about the top law enforcement official of the federal government who has an enormous national security role overseeing the FBI, overseeing counterintelligence, overseeing prosecutions by the National Security division as well as a law enforcement functions, we can't have somebody with the kinds of flaws it looks like Matt Gaetz has. And similarly with Tulsi Gabbard, the ultimate keeper of our secrets is somebody -- she can't get through an FBI full field investigation who in his right mind can vote for that job.

DEAN: And we really have to go, but I do just want to ask you quickly. So many Americans say we don't trust the government. They want Trump to kind of rhetorically, you know, burn it down, essentially. They don't want norms anymore. What do you say to them when it comes to this sort of thing? We don't want the norms. It's fine. Let them blow past what's normal here.

BOLTON: Well, you know, it's -- the proper functioning of the Justice Department serves everybody. And people have to say, if we burn it down here, this is like the quote from Thomas Moore in "A Man for All Seasons," once you've flattened all the laws, who will protect you against the winds that will blow across this country?

DEAN: All right, Ambassador John Bolton, thanks so much for your time. We appreciate it.

BOLTON: Thank you.

DEAN: One of the biggest challenges President-elect Trump may face is getting his attorney general pick through the Senate. Next, hear for some of Matt Gaetz' former colleagues in the House who are not supporting him in his potential new job here in the "CNN Newsroom."

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[17:20:00]

DEAN: After sitting ringside at last night's fight at Madison Square Garden, President-elect Trump is back in West Palm Beach tonight. Right now, Team Trump picking people for cabinet jobs and managing fallout from his earlier announcements. We'll check in now with CNN's Steve Contorno, who is near Mar-a-Lago. Steve, it is always busy, busy days, weekend or not, when you're down there at Mar-a-Lago. What has been going on today?

STEVE CONTORNO, CNN REPORTER: Yeah, there's been a lot of concern that has been reaching the former president, now president-elect Donald Trump, about his pick for attorney general, Matt Gaetz. And we are told that he remains 100 percent resolute in his resolve to get Matt Gaetz through this nominating process. One person telling us he is, quote, "all in on this pick," even as he understands and hears plenty of heartburn from Congress, that he might not be able to get the 51 votes he needs.

Take for example these comments earlier this week from Representative Max Miller about Matt Gaetz.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MAX MILLER (R-OH): He's a member of Congress and the job that he has done here and it has been important. I'm not the only one who thinks this way. I just say the quiet part out loud and I wish other of my colleagues would have the same courage to do so. But him as a member of Congress should not be the most powerful law enforcement individual in our country and everyone knows it and he's not going to get confirmed. And so this is solely based off of his job as a member of Congress within this body that has caused more harm, made us spend more money, has put us in more paralyzation than any other member.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CONTORNO: Now, remarks like that have been reaching President-elect Trump all week long since he made that pick, but notably, Representative Miller will not have a say in whether or not Matt Gaetz gets 51 Senate votes. It will come down to the 54 Republican members of the U.S. Senate, and we have seen some of those members already shifting their stance on Matt Gaetz. Senator Mullen, for example, is someone who a year ago claimed that Matt Gaetz shared videos on the House floor of quotes, "the girls he had slept with," but now he is telling us and saying that he is quote, "going to give him a fair shot in this nominating process."

[17:25:06]

So Jessica, just shows an example of how Donald Trump commands his party and we'll have to wait and see if he can push 51 of his people to go along with a pick that many, many people in his own party oppose.

DEAN: Yeah, all right. Steve Contorno for us in West Palm Beach. Thank you for that reporting. And joining us now is Meredith McGraw, national political reporter at "Politico." Meredith, thanks for being here.

MEREDITH MCGRAW, NATIONAL POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Thanks for having me, Jessica.

DEAN: Yeah, I just want to keep going off of what Steve was reporting there and just what you have been hearing and reporting about in terms of Trump world and even the president-elect himself, how they're absorbing what this fallout around Matt Gaetz as the nominee for A.G.?

MCGRAW: Well, we saw initially some of Donald Trump's picks were relatively conventional. People like Elise Stefanik for U.N. ambassador or Senator Marco Rubio for Secretary of State, appointments that should probably get through the Senate and get confirmed pretty easily. But then over the course of the past week, Donald Trump seemed to be really -- trying to test Senate Republicans here with some of the picks like Matt Gates, Tulsi Gabbard. Um, RFK, Jr. for HHS Secretary.

These are people that some Senate Republicans have expressed reservations about and in particular, Matt Gaetz. You know, as Steve was just reporting, Trump's team is full speed ahead with making sure that Gaetz gets confirmed and put in the position of attorney general, but there are a lot of doubts on Capitol Hill if that's going to happen. And Trump, you know, has talked about using recess appointments, but that would also require, you know, Senate Republicans to allow that process to happen. So Matt Gaetz's future in particular for attorney general seems to be in question.

DEAN: Yeah, and we have that reporting too that he was starting to reach out to some Senate Republicans that certainly, as you just noted, President Trump is full steam ahead with this, really wants to see him confirmed. And it is interesting to see that that's how he wants to use his political capital right now is pushing, trying to push through Matt Gaetz.

MCGRAW: Well, I had one Trump advisor put it to me this way with some of his picks. This is somebody who has now faced indictments, two assassination attempts. He won this election and he is really feeling emboldened at this moment. And he wants to put people in these cabinet positions that he feels are going to be extremely loyal and are going to push through his political agenda.

And so, you know, you have the president-elect with, you know, who feels emboldened, who feels he has this mandate to push through some of these more controversial picks. And it's really going to stress test the Senate Republicans as he tries to push them through.

DEAN: Yeah, it certainly is. And how are things shaping up for the week ahead? Because this has come -- everyone has really noted how quickly Trump has been making these choices, sometimes without much discussion over it, and to the surprise of even his closest allies. What are you hearing about the next several days as we go into this next week?

MCGRAW: It really has been remarkable just how fast these decisions are being made by Trump down at Mar-a-Lago. You know, there was a lot of legwork that Howard Lutnick and other people on his transition team had put into, collecting names and lists of people, resumes. Donald Trump's been down at Mar-a-Lago where he's been doing things like watching news clips of people on televisions that are set up there so he can review their television performance before he makes any decision.

But some have just been done on the fly, literally, like when he decided on Matt Gaetz on the flight from Palm Beach to Washington, D.C. in the middle of the week. And, you know, we still have not heard some of his decisions for, you know, Secretary of Commerce, for example. I think the big one we're still waiting to hear on, of course, is Treasury Secretary. There's been a lot of behind the scenes jockeying from, you know, some of the top contenders.

And over the weekend, who've been at Mar-a-Lago, who've been down in Palm Beach and are really trying to -- different people are trying to push their favorites. You've seen how Elon Musk has thrown his support behind Lutnick for Treasury.

[17:29:58]

And so I think that's probably going to be one of the next big decisions that Trump makes.

DEAN: Yeah, certainly. And it is fascinating to see just who has his ear at any given moment and how impactful that can be. Meredith McGraw, thanks so much. We appreciate it.

MCGRAW: Thank you.

DEAN: Israel launches two strikes on central Beirut. We're going to be live in Jerusalem with the very latest there. You're in the "CNN Newsroom."

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DEAN: A pair of Israeli strikes on central Beirut today killing at least five people and wounding a dozen more. That is according to Lebanon's health ministry. Among the dead was Hezbollah's spokesperson who has been responsible for the group's media relations for the last decade.

[17:35:02]

Israel escalating attacks in recent days. Even its sources tell CNN -- quote -- "extensive discussions are taking place on a ceasefire proposal." Nic Robertson is joining us now from Jerusalem. Nic, walk us through how these attacks might impact negotiations for a halt in fighting.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yeah, while Hezbollah is at the moment deciding, according to a Lebanese official telling CNN just a couple of days ago, Hezbollah is expected to come up with a decision on whether or not to accept the U.S. proposed ceasefire deal with Israel, which a source I've been speaking to has been telling me that there's some tough things in there for Hezbollah to take on board, but indicated that the likelihood they were, that Hezbollah would go along with it.

So, does this upset that process or is it merely part of the process of negotiations where you pile pressure on the other side to make it realize they have no option but to accept these tough proposals?

This figure, Mohammed Afif, who was killed today, not a military figure within Hezbollah, more of on the political side. They've been a close advisor to Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah who was killed in that massive Israeli airstrike towards the end of September, and it really become a public face of Hezbollah since then. They'd previously been running their mouthpiece, the Al-Manar TV station in Lebanon, but it really become more in the public domain, holding several press conferences, the press could get to see him and ask him questions.

So again, it sorts of raises that question, if this is somebody with a reasonably public profile, this no warning assassination, why now? Nevertheless, this is part of the continued pressure on Hezbollah. The IDF continues to go after their weapon storage facilities in Beirut, in other parts of Lebanon and along the border with the north of Israel.

The pressure is on and the question is now looking forward to Monday, what does Hezbollah do? Do they say they'll go along with it? Do they put caveats on this proposed deal? They're certainly in a much, much weaker position than they were a couple of months ago, Jessica.

DEAN: Yeah, there's no doubt about that. All right, Nic Robertson with the latest reporting, thank you very much for that.

And coming up, the FBI could be in for a big shakeup. We'll talk to a retired special agent about what could happen if a Trump loyalist ends up leading the nation's investigative branch. You're on the "CNN Newsroom."

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[17:40:00]

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: We're following breaking news. President Trump has just fired the embattled FBI director, James Comey. In a statement, the White House said the president acted on the advice of both the attorney general of the United States, Jeff Sessions, and the deputy attorney general.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Grotesque abuse of power by the president of the United States. This is the kind of thing that goes on in non-democracies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: That was a flashback to May 9, 2017, and the moment we reported then-President Trump had fired his FBI director, James Comey. Will history repeat itself? Some are wondering if Trump will fire the current FBI director, Christopher Wray, who he himself appointed in June 2017, and replace him with loyalist Kash Patel, someone Trump is reportedly considering. Patel's resume may not be a traditional fit for the job, but for Trump, he does check one big box, and that's vowing to retaliate against Trump's perceived enemies.

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KASH PATEL, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO ACTING U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE IN TRUMP ADMINISTRATION: We will go out and find the conspirators not just in government but in the media. Yes, we're going to come after the people in the media who lied about American citizens, who helped Joe Biden rig presidential elections. We're going to come after you. Whether it's criminal or civilly, we'll figure that out. But yeah, we're putting you all on notice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: And joining us now to discuss is retired FBI special agent Daniel Brunner. Daniel, thanks so much for being here with us. We appreciate it.

DANIEL BRUNNER, RETIRED SPECIA AGENT, FBI: Thanks, Jessica. DEAN: And we just walked through this. Again, at this point, it is a hypothetical, but we do have reporting that this is a decision Trump is mulling over and seriously considering. If he were to fire Christopher Wray when he takes office in January, in terms of the implications for the FBI, for the agency to carry out its ability to carry out its mission, how impactful might that be?

BRUNNER: Well, thanks for having me. It's really important to understand that the person who is leading the FBI, who is the director and then the deputy director, those are two very important positions. You're in charge of tens of thousands of employees, both special agents, analysts, everyone that is enforcing the law, federal law, that is on the books and supporting the Constitution of the United States.

Putting someone like Kash Patel in the position of director of the FBI is, I believe, extremely, extremely dangerous, because you just alluded to that, his resume isn't his traditional. There is nothing on his resume other than three years as a line U.S. attorney at the DOJ. He has no experience leading an organization, no less a Cub Scout PAC, to put him in front of the lead law enforcement agency in the United States, and some consider the world, to have him in charge of so many employees.

[17:44:57]

And he has clearly stated that he wants to exact revenge upon those that have investigated President Trump and those investigated -- those that are around him. He will conduct a massive amount of damage to the interior of the FBI, looking after employees who have put their names on certain documents because they were just working the case. There will be hundreds of employees who will be unjustly fired or have their security clearances removed only because he feels that it's something he needs to do. So, I think he would be very, very dangerous pick.

DEAN: And have you talked to any men and women that are still serving in the FBI? Are they concerned about that? You talked about his plans to maybe go and look and see who was on what document and purge, in his words, them from the FBI. Is there concern about that amongst the rank-and-file and in the people that make the FBI go?

BRUNNER: Well, listen, I was a street agent for 20 years. I never became a supervisor, and I enjoyed working cases, investigations, and Latin-organized crime for the FBI in Newark. So, I still have a lot of good friends of mine that are serving on the FBI, on the front lines, special agents. Necessarily, not all of them are supervisors. So, I talked to a lot of them on the streets. And they're concerned. They're concerned, obviously, of the appointment of Matt Gaetz as possible attorney general, and they are, of course, concerned about Mr. Patel.

You've got -- you have -- listen, you've got countless people who need to be removed, that there needs to be change. I'm completely for that. Lisa Monaco, deputy attorney general, she has been a roadblock for countless FBI investigations. So, she is somebody who needs to be removed and replaced. Putting good people, yet they can make the changes. I understand President Trump wants to make change and a lot of people in this country gave him the mandate to do that. I'm all for that. Dave Bowdich, Jeff Jensen, and John Durham, all good candidates who would come in and move forward a new organization, but yet still have the foundations of the FBI. Those are the things that need to be moved forward.

Putting in Kash Patel, as you stated with Ambassador Bolton earlier in your previous interview, there are people that want to completely flatten organizations. Flattening the FBI and what is built is a very dangerous, you know, foresight because what I believe Kash Patel would do is rebuild the organization in what he envisions a law enforcement agency should be. And I think that's a very dangerous precedent to set for all agencies. They are here to enforce the U.S. Constitution and the federal laws that are on paper.

DEAN: All right, Daniel Brunner, thank you so much for your thoughts on that. We appreciate it.

BRUNNER: My pleasure, Jessica.

DEAN: Mm-hmm. U.S. fighter pilots tell CNN about downing a swarm of Iranian drones headed toward Israel. More on that. You're in the "CNN Newsroom."

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[17:50:00]

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DEAN: We're back with a CNN exclusive. American fighter pilots explaining how they fought off an overwhelming swarm of attack drones in total darkness. They were part of a team that shot down about 70 Iranian drones aiming for Israel earlier this year. CNN's Natasha Bertrand has that story.

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NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As missiles and drones exploded overhead, U.S. troops scrambled to get fighter jets in the air.

MAJ. BENJAMIN "IRISH" COFFEY, U.S. AIR FORCE: The scale that we expected for the most dangerous was vastly under, probably four or five times under what actually occurred on April 13th.

BERTRAND (voice-over): Iran had fired over 300 missiles and attacked drones at Israel, an unprecedented strike. In their first interview since that night, F-15 pilots and crew, call signs Irish, Sonic, Rifle and Voodoo, described trying to hit dozens of missiles and slow-moving drones while flying over a thousand miles per hour.

CAPT. LACIE "SONIC" HESTER, U.S. AIR FORCE: It just took a few seconds that all of a sudden, in the next sweep of our radar, we just see all of these dots. And I think that first picture was a little overwhelming, I think for me in the backseat, just seeing how many are airborne and how many are tracking in our direction.

BERTRAND (voice-over): For the F-15 squadrons shown here at their home base in Lakenheath, England, this was the first real test against a large-scale drone attack.

Can you talk a bit about how difficult that was to take down these very small, slow-moving drones?

COFFEY: You're talking about something that's on the very edge of a fighter aircraft's ability to detect what we call find, fix, track, target, and engage. We weren't sure if our radar, the best radar in the inventory, is in this airplane behind us. No one really knew whether or not its capability to find these things even existed.

BERTRAND (voice-over): Several of the F-15's air-to-air missiles failed to launch, leaving live munitions hanging on the wing.

I mean, was there anything that really surprised you about that night? Anything that went wrong?

MAJ. CLAYTON "RIFLE" WICKS, U.S. AIR FORCE: I mean, a lot of stuff went wrong. We had lots of jets that were coming back with hung ordnance.

BERTRAND: Yeah, and that's treated as an emergency, isn't it?

WICKS: Yep, it is. They are by default an emergency aircraft.

BERTRAND (voice-over): Riffle was managing operations at an undisclosed base in the Middle East, where missiles and drones were exploding overhead. The chaos is shown here for the first time. Pilots called in, asking what to do as debris fell on runways.

WICKS: Really all we could tell them was like, hey, stay airborne as long as you can with the gas that you have. Don't divert because even our, you know, divert airfields, we don't know what's going on there either.

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So, if stuff is blowing up over our heads, very likely, stuff is blowing up there, too.

BERTRAND (voice-over): Many troops refused to head to bunkers.

LT. COL. CURTIS "VOODOO" CULVER, U.S. AIR FORCE: There was an airman at one point standing next to a fuel truck with tons and tons of jet fuel in it, just pumping gas into the jet with stuff exploding over the base. I mean, the courage of that person to stand up and do that for an ally is incredible.

BERTRAND (voice-over): Almost every single plane that landed had to be reloaded.

So, had you ever seen that situation before where these jets are using all of their munitions and then they have to come back and get, you know, all of those replaced at once?

WICKS: We trained to it. I'd never actually seen it.

BERTRAND (voice-over): Ultimately, U.S. and allied forces shot down nearly every projectile Iran launched at Israel. Sonic, Irish, Voodoo, and Rifle all received awards this week for valor in combat.

Natasha Bertrand, CNN, Lakenheath, England.

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DEAN: Incredible. All right, Natasha Bertrand, thanks for that great reporting. We're going to follow breaking news. When we come back, President Biden expanding the use of U.S. weapons for Ukraine in its fight against Russia. We have reaction from across the globe. You're in the "CNN Newsroom."

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