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Biden Approves Ukraine's Use Of Long-Range U.S. Weapons In Russia; Trump Gears Up To Fight For Controversial Nominees; Supporters Pushing Trump To Pardon Convicted Jan. 6 Rioters; Trump's Controversial Cabinet Picks Test Republicans' Loyalty. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired November 17, 2024 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:01:00]

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: You are in the CNN Newsroom. And I'm Jessica Dean in New York. We begin this hour with President Biden announcing a major policy shift in the use of U.S. weapons in Russia's war on Ukraine. After many months of discussions, Biden giving the green light for Ukraine to use long-range U.S. weapons inside Russia. It's not yet clear the impact this will have on the battlefield.

A U.S. official telling CNN those weapons are intended to be used primarily to strike targets in Russia's Kursk Region. For now, that is where Ukraine made those surprise gains on Russian territory over the summer. And we are following all angles of this tonight. We'll go first to CNN senior White House reporter Kevin Liptak, who is joining us from Rio de Janeiro where the G20 Summit is being held. Kevin, what more do we know about how President Biden finally arrived at this decision?

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, this has been something that President Biden has been deliberating for months. But what officials say is that the entry of thousands of North Korean troops into this fight on the side of Russia was effectively a tipping point for President Biden.

And by allowing Ukraine to fire these American provided long-range missiles into Russia, they are trying to send a signal to the North Korean dictator Kim Jong-un that he sends his people to fight in this war at their own peril. And American officials do see this conflict is now reaching an inflection point.

Tens of thousands of Russian troops are masked near the Kursk region as Vladimir Putin tries to claw back some territory. They're being supplemented by those North Korean troops which is providing a great deal of alarm in Washington.

And certainly President Biden has been under pressure to provide this capability, not only from NATO allies who say that disallowing Ukraine from firing these missiles into Russia essentially ties its hand behind its back, but also from the Ukrainian President, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who has been petitioning Biden, including during in person meetings over the last year, to allow his troops to fire these American weapons into Russia.

Now, we did hear from Zelenskyy earlier today. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): The plan to strengthen Ukraine is the victory plan I had presented to partners. Long-range possibilities for our army is one of its major points. Today, there is a lot of talk in the media about us receiving a permit for respective actions. Hits are not made with words. Such things don't need announcements. Missiles will speak for themselves for sure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIPTAK: Now the other dynamic that I don't think can be ignored here is that President Biden is preparing to depart office in two months. He's being replaced by Donald Trump, who has taken a far more skeptical view of American assistance to Ukraine. He has questioned the necessity of military and financial assistance. He's also said that he would be able to resolve this conflict in one day. He hasn't said how he would do it, but the implication, of course, is that it would require territorial sessions by the Ukrainians.

And I think when the American officials were deciding how to move this conflict forward, they certainly wanted to put Ukraine in the strongest possible position as President Biden departed office.

Now, as this summit gets underway here in Rio de Janeiro, the G20 set to begin tomorrow, the conflict of Ukraine will be a point of discussion. But certainly President Trump's return to the White House will be a looming backdrop for these leaders who are working to ascertain exactly what the next four years will have in store. Jessica?

DEAN: All right, Kevin Liptak in Rio de Janeiro, thank you so much for that reporting.

Let's go now to Fred Pleitgen, who joins us from Moscow. And Fred, how is Russia likely to respond to this?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Jessica. Well, the Russians have already said that they believe this is going to be a very big escalation on the part of the United States, of course, also on the part of the Ukrainians as well. In fact, several Russian members of parliament on their social media channels have said as much.

[18:05:06]

But of course, the main person on which almost everything depends here is the Russian President, Vladimir Putin. And he laid out a couple of weeks ago what exactly he believes something like this would mean. Of course, as Kevin was just mentioning, the discussions about the possible use of U.S. provided weapons by the Ukrainians for strikes deep into Russian territory is a discussion that has been going on for quite some time.

And one of the things that Vladimir Putin said about two and a half, maybe three weeks ago, is that he said that he believes these kind of weapons, like for instance the U.S. provided ATACMS surface to surface missiles, can only effectively be used by the Ukrainians with the help of personnel from the countries that provide those weapons, in this case, of course, the Russians speaking specifically about the United States.

And therefore, the Russians saying that this would constitute a direct involvement of these countries, in this case the -- the United States against Russia, essentially the Russians saying an act of war against Russia. Now, the Russians have gone a long way to try and dissuade the Biden administration from making exactly the decision that it has now made. The Russians even changed their fundamental nuclear doctrine of this country to -- to provide for -- for a new field.

And that specifically states that if Russia is attacked by a non- nuclear country using long distance weapons with the help of a nuclear country, obviously in this case meaning the United States or other NATO members that also have nuclear weapons, that that could trigger a nuclear response for -- from the Russians. So the Russians have long said that for them this could change the game in many ways.

What exactly they will do, however, really is something that is very much up for debate. And whether or not they might escalate or -- or speed up their offensive that they are planning in the Kursk regions, try and win that area back, very difficult to say right now. Jessica?

DEAN: Right. And -- and how likely is it, Fred, that this development will accelerate Russia's expected operation to retake the Kursk Region?

PLEITGEN: Well, I -- I think that it's certainly, yes, I think it's certainly something that is in -- in the realm of -- of the possible. One of the things that we know is the Russians do seem on the cusp of being able to launch a large scale operation down there in the Kursk Region to try and take that area back.

We know from U.S. intelligence that the Russians apparently have upward of 50,000 personnel down there on the ground, that apparently there's some North Koreans there as well. And the Ukrainians have said as much. Also they've had direct combat engagement with North Korean forces and that there have been losses in those combat engagements.

The Ukrainians are saying even if some of those North Korean forces aren't on the front lines or on the second echelon, that it frees up Russian troops to try and get going some sort of counteroffensive to take back that Kursk Region.

Now, whether or not all this needs to be accelerated because it does seem as though it could be imminent anyway is really up for a debate. But certainly the Russians will take specifically the information that we've been getting that -- that apparently the reason why the Biden administration did this is to help the Ukrainians hold onto the Kursk Region, that could certainly accelerate things on the part of the Russians. Jessica?

DEAN: All right, Fred Pleitgen in Moscow for us, thank you very much for that.

And just moments ago, I spoke with John Bolton, former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations and President Trump's longest serving national security adviser. And here's what he said about President Biden's decision to let Ukraine use these long range weapons inside Russia.

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JOHN BOLTON, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: Well, it's the right decision. I'm -- I'm just worried it's too little too late. This should have happened two years ago. And it's emblematic of -- of the sad reality that although the United States wasn't able to deter the Russian invasion for this two and a half years, Russia has largely deterred the United States and NATO from providing adequate assistance to Ukraine on a strategic basis.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: In just a few months, this will be out of President Biden's hands and in the President-elect Trump's hands, now -- then who will then be the president. For more, let's check in with CNN's Steve Contorno. Steve, what have we heard from the President-elect at this time?

STEVE CONTORNO, CNN REPORTER: Yes, Jessica, I reached out to the Trump transition team about this decision by Biden that could have profound implications about the crisis that Trump will be inheriting when he takes over in January. And essentially they decided not to provide a comment at this time.

Let me read you this statement that Steven Cheung, his spokesperson, said, quote, as President Trump has said on the campaign trail, he is the only person who can bring both sides together in order to negotiate peace and work toward ending the war and stopping the killing.

So clearly no response there or -- or reaction there to the specifics of what Joe Biden had authorized today, although it's coming after Trump has spent months and months and month raising concerns about this war, suggesting that it would never have happened if he was the President from 2020 to 2024. Take a listen to some of his remarks on this battle throughout the years.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[18:10:06]

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT: I will end the war in Ukraine.

I'll get it done. I'll get it negotiated. I'll get out.

If I'm president, I will have that war settled in one day, 24 hours.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CONTORNO: Now, as Kevin pointed out, Trump has yet to lay out how he would end this war in 24 hours. Though it's worth pointing out he has had a discussion with Ukrainian President Zelenskyy in the days since he was -- since he won election. In fact, the very next day, the two spoke on the phone. It later came out that Elon Musk also joined that call, which was surprising to many given Elon Musk's involvement in that war effort, both providing WiFi through Starlink to the -- to Ukrainians on the -- on the war front, but also the ties and the conversations that he has had with Russia over the years.

Now, Zelenskyy did put out a statement after Trump won saying, quote, we agree to maintain close dialogue and advance our cooperation. We will see how this latest development affects that cooperation once Trump takes over in January. Jessica?

DEAN: Yes. A lot of questions about that. All right, Steve Contorno for us in West Palm Beach, thank you very much.

Some members of the President-elect's own party will soon find themselves between a rock and a hard place. Do they back the controversial cabinet picks made by Donald Trump or will they break with him? We're going to talk more about it, that's next in the CNN Newsroom.

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[18:16:09]

DEAN: House Speaker Mike Johnson once again rejecting calls for the House Ethics Committee to release its report on former congressman, now Trump pick for Attorney General Matt Gaetz. Here's what he told CNN's Jake Tapper, this morning.

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REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), HOUSE SPEAKER: We don't want to go down that road. I don't think you want the House Ethics Committee investigating Jake Tapper or any other private citizen. You're not a member of the institution. There's a reason that it is limited in its scope and jurisdiction. The Senate has a role, the advise and consents role under the Constitution, and they'll perform it. They'll have a -- a rigorous review and vetting process in the Senate, but they don't need to rely upon a report or a draft report, a rough draft report that was prepared by the Ethics Committee for its very limited purposes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: Let's turn now to our panel, CNN senior political commentator and former special assistant to President George W. Bush, Scott Jennings and Max Rose, former Democratic congressman from New York and a senior advisor to VoteVets. Good to see both of you. Scott, let's start first with you. The -- there is this, we just played that clip from the House Speaker about this House -- this ethics report and Matt Gaetz. There have been calls by Republican senators. They say they think they should be able to see it. Do you think they need to see this to be able to properly advise and consent on this pick?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, whether they see it or not, my suspicion is during the confirmation process, which, as the Speaker indicated, there's a very rigorous vetting situation here, they're going to find out everything the Ethics Committee already knew. So would it be easier for them to just get it in the way the Ethics Committee has already written it up? Yes.

If they don't get it, which is the House's prerogative, I'm sure they can do all the legwork now that might delay, obviously, the vetting process for Gaetz as he goes through this confirmation situation. But, I mean, my -- my instinct is virtually all this information is going to be found out by the Senate one way or the other.

DEAN: And -- and Max, to that end, we know that the Trump transition team are reporting indicates that they're bypassing the traditional FBI background checks for some of their cabinet picks. When it comes to the Senate, again, their role in all of this, how do you expect them to proceed forward, especially Senate Republicans who will have the majority? And again, just a reminder, everyone, you need the -- 51 votes, and -- and they will have that. It's just a question of if they can get all of them on board.

MAX ROSE (D-NY), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Yes. I mean, what's fascinating here is that these FBI background checks, one could argue, are at the service of the political party making the nomination and at the service of the country writ large. So they're moving so fast here that they're really missing things. Look, it just got revealed that the Secretary of Defense nominee has, you know, a prior harassment charge of someone that he eventually compensated.

So this will continue. But Donald Trump is -- is feeling the wind in his sails. He, you know, just received a resounding victory, so no one will stop him from making these picks. What I do find fascinating, though, is that this is a very clear moment where he may already be overreaching, overstepping, Wisconsin, Arizona, Nevada, Michigan, all while electing Donald Trump also elected Democrats.

So this was not some mandate for the party writ large. The country remains awfully divided, and -- and I -- I would suspect that upon the first rejection of one of these nominees, of which it will be Matt Gaetz, they'll start to temper these picks a bit.

DEAN: Yes. Scott, I'm curious your thoughts kind of going off something that -- that Max just said there. Because, look, President Trump was -- was very -- was -- was elected by the people of America. He was not quiet about his plans. He was explicit about what he wanted to do, and he is now setting, you know, on a course to do those things. Do you think that there is a difference, though, between Marco Rubio or, you know, the -- the -- some of these nominees that he has picked versus the Matt Gaetz picks, Tulsi Gabbard?

[18:20:15]

JENNINGS: Yes. Before I answer that question, if I could just go back to something Max said -- DEAN: Yes.

JENNINGS: -- that was incorrect. Pete Hegseth was not charged with any harassment crime of any kind. So you use the word charge, you use the word harassment, that -- that didn't happen. He was investigated and his lawyer has said that on the record. But there were no charges. On your question, Jessica, I -- I think -- I think that there is a difference, obviously. I mean, look, I suspect Marco Rubio, Doug Burgum, people like that are going to sail --

DEAN: Right.

JENNINGS: -- in these confirmation hearings. I suspect all the Republicans are going to support them. And that's not going to be an issue. There are a couple that are going to have different degrees of difficulty. Gaetz is probably in a category by himself in terms of the amount of resistance he's going to face.

And then you get down to Tulsi Gabbard and then you get down to Hegseth, they're going to face varying degrees of difficulty through their confirmation process. There's no question that Gaetz is -- is in the toughest spot. And I don't know if he can get confirmed or not. What I would say is anybody the president sends up deserves a chance to go through the confirmation process.

And the Senate has every right to dig as deeply into these people and to question them as deeply as they want to do. That's part of what the Senate's job is. And I do think there are going to be some Republicans who wind up opposing some of these nominees. I don't know how many, but certainly I think there are going to be a few.

DEAN: Yes. And -- and -- and Max, you did make the point that -- about Hegseth, who was investigated for sexual misconduct, but -- but to -- to Scott's point, wasn't -- wasn't charged. But just more broadly, the idea that these are -- these nominees have this sort of baggage with them that they're carrying into these confirmation hearings.

ROSE: Well, look, this is a complicated process. There is no doubt. I think one of the consequences of what Donald Trump is trying to do, which is clearly to pick big personalities from non-traditional backgrounds, is if they move too quickly and push against the system, you know, you're going to have some problems arise because they're not going to do a robust due diligence and robust background checks.

But the larger point still stands that for all those who said during the last election, take Donald Trump seriously but do not take him literally, we're clearly mistaken. He is going to wage war against much of what I think Americans collectively hold dear, some of what really angers them.

And -- and they're going to proceed along this road where I think as they start to break institutions, as they start to break norms, we're going to realize that there -- there were things that we relied on that we didn't even know that we relied on. And just the last point, though, it was not a week ago where the Trump administration proposed a purity test for future or the incoming administration proposed a purity test for incoming, for generals that they said that they're going to review four-star by four-star by four-star and see whether or not they are truly loyal.

That would be an absolute threat to our national security. So while he may have a mandate, the American people are going to push back when they see the disastrous consequences that potentially arises out of these decisions.

DEAN: Well, and before that -- before we even get to that point, Scott, just, I know I keep taking this back to the Senate, but I just think it's going to play such a -- a key role in all of this because we don't have midterms for another two years. So right now, the only real check right now on this or potential check or in either direction could be -- could be the Senate, where the Republicans do have that majority and we have a sea change in terms of Senate leadership.

You worked, I know, for the current leader, Mitch McConnell. Now it's going to be John Thune. I'm curious how you think that is going to play out and what kind of role McConnell might have because we saw him and his influence kind of waning with some of these newer senators. And -- and I'm just curious how you see that playing out.

JENNINGS: Well, I think that there are a group of senators who are probably unthreatenable or, you know, in political parlance. You know, a lot of people may fear the influence of Donald Trump, but there will be some that don't. You know, McConnell's got two years left on his term and he's no longer the leader. You've got other senators that have, you know, publicly broken with Trump many, many times as part of their persona.

So you -- you do have this group that are not as influenced or threatenable by the President and his political apparatus as some of the rest of them are. Now, every senator gets one vote. And I suspect these confirmation hearings are going to provide fodder for the people who are unhappy about some of the picks. But again, I -- I -- I go back to a couple of issues.

One, the President deserves to build a government. Two, the Senate deserves to vet and advise and consent on the people that the President sends up. And three, everybody deserves a chance to go through the process. All of these things can be true at the same time. It wouldn't be unusual if a cabinet secretary, a nominee or two, doesn't make it.

[18:25:18]

But I think if the President who just won the election sends these people up, they deserves to -- they deserve to have their chance at the table to answer questions. I know they're getting a lot of flack and a lot of attacks for being non-traditional picks, but that's kind of how Trump ran his race. He said, I'm going to go shake up, break up and blow up Washington, D.C. because it's doing a terrible job on behalf of the American people.

I think that's a lot of what people voted for and we'll -- and -- and I think that's reflected in some of the personnel that he's sending up. But again, they all have to sit at the table and answer questions and -- and they all ought to get a chance to do that.

DEAN: Yes. And Max, I want to give you last thoughts on that.

ROSE: Well, look, it must be the beginning of a beautiful holiday season because I agree with much of what Scott just said regarding the process that's about to be undertaken. Just the -- the only point I would make here, though is if what Donald Trump is signaling about his incoming administration, because that's what happens here. These appointments, these nominations are signals. If his goal is a Matt Gaetz run AG's office, we know just how serious he is about following through on his promises of retribution and waging war on our judicial system.

Now, the majority of Americans may have known who voted for him, that that is what he was going to do. But what I think people are less cognizant of is the absolute disastrous consequences that will arise from decisions like this. And that's where I think as the political process continues, that's where the Democratic Party will focus on.

DEAN: All right, Scott Jennings and Max Rose -- Max Rose, I appreciate both of you.

ROSE: Thank you.

DEAN: Still to come, President-elect Trump's pressure to pardon the coming dilemma for Trump, who's pledged to pardon people charged in the January 6th Capitol insurrection and how that promise could put him at odds with GOP allies and voters. You're in the CNN Newsroom.

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[18:31:34]

DEAN: While campaigning, President-elect Trump promised to pardon the more than 1,000 people convicted in connection with the January 6th attack on the Capitol. And now his supporters are expecting the President-elect to follow through on that promise. But the issue poses a dilemma, which offenders should he pardon? CNN's Donie O'Sullivan has this story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Today was amazing. Woke up with the president of the United States, the rightful president, back in his spot. And today, after 828 days, we're going to pop some champagne and raise a glass to President Trump.

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the mother of Ashli Babbitt, the rioter who was shot and killed by Capitol Police on January 6th.

SHERRI HAFNER, J6 PARDON ACTIVIST: Mama Mickey, we love you honey. And we are so grateful for you bringing this freedom family together.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): It's the night after the election. Trump supporters have gathered here, as they have every night for the last 800 nights outside the Washington, D.C. jail.

O'SULLIVAN: How did you feel when Trump won last night?

HAFNER: I knew that meant freedom for our guys. And I was overwhelmed, thankful. And I know that God heard our prayers.

O'SULLIVAN: Are you emotional?

HAFNER: Yes.

O'SULLIVAN: Yes.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Jan. 6 inmates call in to talk to the organizers nightly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The stressful, barren journey has finally come to an end with the election of our beloved president, Donald J. Trump.

HAFNER: I couldn't stop crying last night that you guys are finally going to get pardoned. You're going to be set free. And all of this is going to be behind us.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Trump has repeatedly promised to give pardons to some people serving time for their actions on January 6th.

SUZZANNE MONK, FOUNDER, J6 PARDON PROJECT: And now we have to continue to put pressure on the president to make that right decision to fulfill that promise. And I know that he will. But I also know my president understands trust, but verify.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): One person who certainly hopes to be pardoned is Rachel Powell.

O'SULLIVAN: How do you feel when you watch this?

RACHEL POWELL, CONVICTED JANUARY 6TH RIOTER: You know, I think I am more numb when I look at this stuff. It's like surreal to me. I mean, look how angry I look.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): I met Rachel back in January of this year, right before she was about to go to prison for crimes she committed at the Capitol on January 6th, while protesting what she believed was a stolen election.

O'SULLIVAN: Have you ever had a moment where you're like, you know, maybe I'm wrong? Maybe Biden actually won the election. Maybe I'm the conspiracy theorist.

R. POWELL: No, not at all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This call is from a federal prison.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Rachel and I stayed in touch throughout the year.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel like I just need to be home with my family.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Rachel has eight children, ranging in ages from eight to 28, along with seven grandkids. We spoke to three of Rachel's older daughters, Adah, Rebecca, and Savannah.

O'SULLIVAN: Wait, this is you and your mom?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

O'SULLIVAN: When was this taken?

REBEKAH FEDOSICK, DAUGHTER OF RACHEL POWELL: Yes, this is in the prison. This is Adah, our mom. This is Gideon (ph), me, and my husband.

SAVANNAH HUNTINGTON, DAUGHTER OF RACHEL POWELL: The only thing I could think of when I heard that Trump won the election was that my mom is coming home. She's going to be able to come home now.

[18:35:02]

FEDOSICK: Yes.

HUNTINGTON: Just -- we're going to have our mom back.

FEDOSICK: You just know she's freaking out.

HUNGTINGTON: Yes. She's so excited. She's so happy.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Their mom was found guilty of engaging in physical violence and of destruction of government property for breaking a window at the Capitol with an ice axe.

O'SULLIVAN: Do you ever just think, oh mom, I wish you didn't go to Washington, D.C. that day?

ADAH POWELL, DAUGHTER OF RACHEL POWELL: I feel like that's a pretty normal thought to have when there's so many consequences to the actions, but ultimately she was going to support something she believed in --

FEDOSICK: Yes.

A. POWELL: And she is our mother. So we support her in whatever she decides to do.

O'SULLIVAN: Yes.

FEDOSICK: I don't blame her for going. I kind of wish she had a little like held herself back.

A. POWELL: Maybe a little more restraint would have been nice.

FEDOSICK: Exactly. Yes.

O'SULLIVAN: You guys are not of the opinion. Your mom went to Washington, D.C. chasing a conspiracy theory, chasing a lie.

HUNTINGTON: No.

A. POWELL: No.

HUNTINGTON: No.

A. POWELL: Yes. She had a strong belief, she wanted to go support it, and we all share her belief that it was definitely stolen in our opinions.

O'SULLIVAN: You're certain he will pardon your mom?

A. POWELL: Yes.

HUNTINGTON: Yes. Yes. He will keep to what he said. He will keep his word. He is going to pardon her.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): While we were at Rachel's home, she called from prison.

R. POWELL: Oh man, when Trump won, it was amazing. It was -- which I knew, I knew that that's what the American people wanted, so I had no doubt. But, as everybody knows, I believe there was election fraud last time, and so I just wondered, are we going to have a fair election this time? And it appears that we did, because Trump got elected.

O'SULLIVAN: And do you think he's going to pardon you?

R. POWELL: I know he's going to pardon me.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

O'SULLIVAN: And, Jess, look, there is some debate among Republicans, even among those in the MAGA base of who should be pardoned and who should not be pardoned. Former Vice President Mike Pence weighing in, saying that he believed that anybody who assaulted a police officer on January 6th should not be pardoned. As for the activists behind the January 6th pardon movement, they've even produced this book, which is a "How To Pardon the J6ers: A Comprehensive Strategy Guide for President Donald J. Trump." Jess?

DEAN: All right, Donie, thanks so much for that report.

And coming up, the tough balancing act ahead for top Republicans in Congress as they walk the line between what the President-elect wants and what they can actually and what they actually willing to deliver. You're in the CNN Newsroom.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[18:42:10]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At the end of the day, you got to have the votes and you better have the resume.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He chose Matt Gaetz. Matt will come before the -- the committee and he will be asked hard questions and we'll see how he does.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The President's entitled to choose his cabinet, and I presume I'll support them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's premature to be talking about recess --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- on the issue --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: President-elect Trump's Cabinet picks will likely drive the coming week on Capitol Hill. CNN has learned from a source that Trump's nominee for Attorney General, Matt Gaetz, has been working the phones, reaching out to Republican senators in an effort to secure votes. Joining us now is someone who has their finger on the pulse of all things Capitol Hill, co-founder of Punchbowl News, John Bresnahan. John, good to have you here with us.

JOHN BRESNAHAN, PUNCHBOWL NEWS CO-FOUNDER: Hi. Good to see you.

DEAN: I first just want to ask broadly, is this shaping up to be kind of the super bowl of loyalty tests for Senate Republicans?

BRESNAHAN: Oh, it's going to be fascinating how to see this play out. And it's the stakes are huge, not for only for Senate Republicans, but for Democrats and the country and President-elect Trump, they -- there is tremendous opposition, particularly to Matt Gaetz. There's opposition to the other ones, other nominees, Tulsi Gabbard for Director of National Intelligence, Pete Hegseth for DoD Secretary, I think this is, and Robert F. Kennedy also. There's going to be some opposition there, too.

I think you're going to see a lot of fighting in the next couple of weeks and then extending into January and February over this. If Trump doesn't back down, if Trump doesn't withdraw these nominees where they don't leave on their own, then you will see Republicans face a real -- Senate Republicans face a real test here, the incoming Senate Majority Leader John Thune and will have to decide how far he wants to push this.

DEAN: Yes, he didn't quite get much of a honeymoon in terms of being the new leader. I'm curious what you know about the relationship between Trump and Thune and -- and just kind of, if you can help people understand how Thune has -- has reacted, responded to Trump in the past because he was in Senate leadership before becoming the new leader.

BRESNAHAN: He was. He's the number two Senate Republican right now. He's the minority whip. Of course, when they go after January 3rd, there'll be a new Congress and the Senate Republicans will be in the majority. Thune will be majority leader. What happened is Thune, when -- he's close to current minority leader Mitch McConnell. And in 2020, McConnell joined by Senator Thune and Senator Cornyn, you know, they acknowledged that President Biden won the election and that infuriated Trump, who called for a primary challenge to Thune during 2022. He couldn't find anybody to run against Thune in South Dakota, but he -- he attacked Thune, publicly attacked McConnell, he attacked Cornyn publicly.

[18:45:00]

Now they all, you know, Thune and Trump have buried the hatchet. Now they talk -- they talk regularly. He -- Thune has been to Mar-a-Lago to see the President-elect before the election. You know, he, you know, pledged his loyalty to Trump's agenda and he won a leadership election. It was a tight election. But, you know, he won Senate Republican support to be the leader in the next Congress.

So, you know, his job as the leader will be to try to execute Trump's agenda where he can, while also defending the prerogatives of the Senate and the Senate Republican Conference. This is going to be very difficult. Trump -- Trump doesn't deal with, you know, rejection. And if Senate Republicans are the ones who block anything, and we know Democrats are going to oppose everything Trump does, Senate Republicans are ones who end up blocking anything, then they're going to have to pay a price and Thune's going to be the one in the -- in the crosshairs on that.

DEAN: Yes. And there has been this talk about recess appointments. Trump has been pushing for that, of course. Thune has said he's open to it, but certainly hasn't sounded enthusiastic about it by any means. Help people understand what -- what that kind of means and how likely that is that we get to that point.

BRESNAHAN: Recess appointments have been around in the -- for the history of this country. Remember in the old days and, you know, the 18th and, you know, in the 1800s and 1900s, it took a long time to travel to Washington back and forth. So the President was allowed to appoint certain positions without Senate confirmation and then they would be confirmed later. But there were short term appointees. They can only last a certain amount of time.

Now, since 2014, there was disputes with former President Obama and Congress, the Republicans in Congress over that. They haven't done recess appointments. They kept -- they used a procedure to stop it. But what Trump is threatening is saying, if my appointees don't get confirmed for whatever reason, I will try to adjourn the Congress. There's no -- there's questionable thought whether you can do this and do recess appointments.

And what this is this -- this would be a real challenge to the independence of the Senate, to the ability to advise and consent on confirmations. Now, there's wildly, there's way too many confirmations that the Senate has to. There's like 9,000 Senate confirmed posts. There's way too many people, you want to address that. But what Trump is threatening is to do large scale recess appointments and really undermine the Senate's independence. And there's a lot of Republicans, they haven't gone public with it mainly yet are very concerned about this. The idea of Trump does it, there'll be a Democratic president down the road and that president will do it as well. And the next president, you know, what one president does, the next one's going to do. So if you cede power between the branches, it's not coming back. And this is a real challenge to the Senate's authority and independence.

DEAN: Yes. Once that power goes, it is hard to get it back. I can't imagine they'd take kindly to it, but we're going to see. John Bresnahan, thanks so much. Good to see you.

BRESNAHAN: Thanks, Jessica.

DEAN: We'll have more news when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:52:36]

DEAN: The date September 29th, 1982, seven Chicago area residents were suddenly stricken with a deadly illness and doctors found a sinister connection.

All the victims had recently taken cyanide laced Tylenol capsules and it forever changed the way medications and other goods are packaged in stores.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I went over to the hospital immediately. I saw Theresa Janus, that was Adam's wife, standing to the side. She told me what had happened. After Adam died, the family had gathered to discuss the funeral and the brother Stanley had back pain, chronic back pain. So he asked his wife to go get him a couple of Tylenol. And then a few minutes later she took two Tylenol and he went down. And then she went down, both collapsed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard Helen Jensen (ph) interviewing these people and I know they all took Tylenol.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I felt very strongly that I had to go and look at that house and two police officers and I went out and looked through the house. I went into the bathroom and found a bottle of Tylenol and then I took it out to the kitchen and emptied the container and counted the pills. And there were six pills missing and there were three people dead. And I said it has to be the Tylenol. Something's wrong with the Tylenol.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DEAN: It is the topic of an all new episode of "How It Really Happened" and CNN correspondent, Brian Todd, is joining us now. It is a wild story. Brian, walk us through that period and then how the country reacted to that story. BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jessica, there was just a pervasive fear that swept across the country at the time and that was really because of the random nature of these crimes. Nobody knew who the next victim was going to be, when or where the death would occur.

And once they figured out that it was Tylenol that was -- that was causing the deaths and they figured that out pretty early in the investigation, then it really got frightening for so many Americans because again, it was the randomness of the crime. The one case that I can equate this to is the D.C. sniper case in 2002. Again, you didn't know when the next killing would come. You didn't know who the next victim would be. It was the same case with the Tylenol murders and was absolutely terrifying for millions of Americans at the time.

[18:55:05]

DEAN: Absolutely. All right, Brian Todd, thank you so much for that. Look at the special tonight. You can tune into back to back episodes of "How It Really Happened." It premieres tonight at 9:00 and 10:00 Eastern and Pacific right here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:00:01]

DEAN: You're on the CNN Newsroom. I'm Jessica Dean in New York. And we begin this hour with President Biden announcing a major policy shift in Russia's war on Ukraine.