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Trump Bracing for Confirmation Fights Over Cabinet Picks; Chinese Officials Brace for Unpredictable Trump Presidency; Biden, Xi Talk Taiwan, Economy and Ukraine in Last Meeting; Source: Discussions Ongoing in Beirut Over Ceasefire Plan; Jan. 6 Rioters, Supporters Hopeful Of Trump Pardon Promise; Rudy Giuliani Turns Over Luxury Assets to Women He Defamed. Aired 5-6a ET

Aired November 17, 2024 - 05:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[05:00:32]

MAX FOSTER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and a warm welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. I'm Max Foster.

Ahead on CNN Newsroom, Donald Trump trading the transition team for ringside seats. Why he's doubling down on some of his controversial cabinet picks, despite the confirmation fight, ahead.

And President Joe Biden addressing questions about the seismic political shift ahead during a sit-down with his Chinese counterpart, what they had to say about the future of U.S.-China relations.

Plus, amid even more Israeli attacks, the possibility of a temporary peace in Lebanon, what Hezbollah and Israel are debating.

ANNOUNCER: Live from London, this is CNN Newsroom with Max Foster.

FOSTER: We begin with Donald Trump emerging from his Mar-a-Lago resort for one of his first public appearances since winning the presidential election, amid new controversy over one of his cabinet picks.

Trump spent Saturday night in New York ringside at an ultimate fighting event. He was accompanied by several allies and newly selected administration picks, including his choice for Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., and his choice for Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard, as well as Elon Musk, House Speaker Mike Johnson, and you'll see Kid Rock as well.

Not there was Donald Trump's pick to be Secretary of Defense, after new information emerged about a scandal involving Pete Hegseth. His attorney says Hegseth paid the woman who accused him of sexual assault in 2017, but denies assaulting her.

The payment was part of a settlement that included a confidentiality agreement. Hegseth's attorney says the incident was a consensual sexual encounter. Hegseth has not been charged in any criminal case or named as a defendant in any civil lawsuit in connection with the incident.

Meanwhile, Trump has selected the head of the fracking company, or a fracking company, to be his Secretary of Energy. He's a man who's expressed doubt that climate change is linked to extreme weather. CNN's Steve Contorno has more from West Palm Beach, Florida.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STEVE CONTORNO, CNN REPORTER: Donald Trump on Saturday continued to build out his cabinet, naming Chris Wright as his Secretary of Energy. Wright is the CEO of Liberty Energy, a company that services oil and natural gas exploration and production companies. Along with his wife, he is also a major Republican fundraiser, and he's also someone who does not necessarily believe in man-made climate change.

In fact, he has said there is no climate crisis. Of course, that is a belief that Donald Trump also holds, though it is notable given the department that he will oversee. He will also be named to the newly formed Council of National Energy.

That will be chaired as well by Doug Burgum, the North Dakota governor, who is also named by Trump as his Secretary of the Interior. Even as Trump builds out his incoming administration, he continues to face questions about some of his picks that he has already made, including Matt Gaetz as Attorney General. Gaetz is a figure who has many enemies on Capitol Hill for starting intraparty fights over the years. He is also the subject of multiple investigations into alleged sexual misconduct.

And Trump remains steadfast in his determination to get Gaetz across the finish line, despite concerns that he cannot get the 51 votes in the U.S. Senate to be confirmed. A source telling CNN on Saturday that Trump remains, quote, "100% committed" to seeing Matt Gaetz through and believes that he is one of the most important, if not the most important appointments of his cabinet. This source telling CNN he is not going to back off. He's all in on Matt Gaetz.

Steve Contorno, CNN, West Palm Beach, Florida.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: As Trump builds his incoming administration billionaire Elon Musk is pushing for a Treasury Secretary that will disrupt Wall Street.

In a post on X on Saturday, Musk called the current frontrunner Scott Bessent, founder of capital management firm Key Square, a business-as- usual choice. He says that, that approach is driving America towards bankruptcy.

Instead, Musk is pushing for Howard Lutnick, a staunch Trump supporter who runs investment bank Cantor Fitzgerald. Musk insists Lutnick will, quote, "actually enact change."

[05:05:00] Senior officials in China trying to determine what Trump's second term will mean for their country. Trump's cabinet picks include China hawks Marco Rubio for secretary of state and Mike Waltz as well as National Security Adviser. That's raising concern in Beijing on a range of issues including trade and territorial claims in the South China Sea.

Chinese officials see a possibility for communication through alternate channels such as Elon Musk. The Tesla owner has a huge factory in Shanghai, but the unpredictability of Trump himself remains a huge concern as China holds out for hope of cooperation in that relationship.

Those concerns loomed over the final meeting between U.S. President Joe Biden and Xi Jinping. Meeting on the sidelines of the APEC summit in Lima, Peru, the leaders agreed that A.I. should never be allowed to control nuclear weapons. President Xi emphasized the need for stability in the U.S.-China relationship, whilst Mr. Biden raised issues including Taiwan and the presence of North Korean troops in Ukraine, which he called deeply dangerous.

For more, CNN's Marc Stewart joins us now live from Beijing. I guess this was a chance for President Biden to, you know, speak to his legacy, tie up some loose ends as much as he could.

MARC STEWART, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Max. This is a meeting where both sides had a mission, and from this vantage point, at least it appears to be mission accomplished.

Let's first talk about President-elect Biden. He has a relationship with Xi Jinping that dates back about a decade from when he was vice president. This meeting was perhaps a way to wrap things up and to reflect back on this decade-long relationship. It was not always an easy one either.

In fact, I'm thinking back to early 2023 when the U.S. shot down a Chinese balloon. That caused an entire diplomatic freeze. Eventually, channels were re-established and things thawed out. And since that time, we have seen regular diplomatic visits by American officials here to Beijing, including Secretary of State Antony Blinken, Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen, as well as National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan.

And then last year at APEC, we also saw the two world leaders meet face-to-face for what were substantive conversations. But for right now, at this moment for President Biden, it is a moment to take a look back, as also to perhaps set the tone for the future, despite the unknowns of what a new administration may bring.

Let's take a listen to President Biden.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: These conversations prevent miscalculations and they ensure the competition between our two countries will not veer into conflict, competition, not conflict. That's our responsibility to our people. And as you indicated to the people around the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STEWART: It is that kind of reassurance that may make China feel a bit more comfortable, despite the unpredictability of the incoming Trump administration. I say unpredictability because during the first, his first term, many diplomats in China laid awake at night wondering what was going to happen next.

So as far as the Chinese side of this meeting, President Xi Jinping very much was trying to convey this message of communication and stability. And it's very noteworthy the language he used. He talked about phrases such as win-win cooperation and mutual respect, peaceful coexistence. And some of the very phrases that he used in his congratulatory message to President-elect Trump.

But Max, there will likely be hurdles ahead. As you mentioned, Marco Rubio, likely to be incoming secretary of state. He is a well-known China hawk. And then there are some very thorny issues, including trade and tariff issues that the Trump administration has hinted will come very early on.

China has this practice of if you hurt us, we will hurt you back. And so it is going to make this a very difficult and perhaps challenging relationship for both governments as we watch the Trump presidency move forward early next year, Max.

FOSTER: Trump White House obviously looming right now because that's going to define the future of this relationship along with China. How did China use this final meeting, do you think, to their advantage?

STEWART: Well China is not only speaking to the U.S. during this meeting. It's also using it to spread its message around the world. We have APEC, which just wrapped up, and then G20 nations will be meeting this week ahead.

This is a chance for China to really tell the world, A, that it's a world leader, but two, with these concerns of a new administration and not knowing what it will bring, the world should count on China as a stable partner. And already we have seen China move forward with that theme. One, trying to establish itself as this alternative world leader, but two, just through economic investment.

[05:10:17]

In fact, while in Lima, Xi Jinping arrived before APEC for an opening ceremony of this big port, spending $1.3 billion. So that's the message China wants to send, that despite what's happening in the U.S., look to China as being a partner, both economically and politically, Max.

FOSTER: OK, Marc in Beijing, thank you for that.

The fourth typhoon to hit the Philippines in less than two weeks is battering the country right now. Man-yi has regained strength and is a super typhoon once again, with sustained winds of 240kmph. The Philippines' Atmospheric Administration says the storm has now made its second landfall in the country. It's beginning to make its way across the more populated areas north of Manila. Meanwhile, more than half a million people have been reportedly evacuated across the eastern regions already.

Turning to Central America, where heavy rains from Tropical Storm Sara are spreading over parts of Belize and the Yucatan Peninsula. In Honduras, tens of thousands have been affected by the storm, with at least one person dead. Officials report more than 100 homes and several bridges have been damaged.

Lebanon's capital takes a pounding again as Israeli strikes target the city for a sixth consecutive day. We'll see dramatic video coming up of the attacks that rocked the city just a few hours ago.

Despite the attacks, officials work behind closed doors to push for the latest ceasefire proposal. You'll hear why some officials are actually quite optimistic that it might work.

And later, a protest over election results in Eastern Europe. How it got to this point when we go back.

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[05:15:53]

FOSTER: A stabbing attack in eastern China has killed 8 people and injured 17 others. It happened on Saturday night on the college campus. A suspect was taken into custody.

At the scene, police said the suspect is a recent graduate of the college. He failed an exam, didn't receive a graduation certificate, and was dissatisfied with internship compensation. This is the latest mass casualty incident in the country.

Last Monday, 35 people were killed and 40 injured when a driver ploughed through a crowd in southern China.

We're getting word on a new Israeli strike in northern Gaza, which officials say left 50 people dead. Witnesses say the attack hit the houses used by the Palestinians displaced by ongoing Israeli ground operations.

And in Lebanon. Explosions are also rattling Beirut as Israeli strikes pummel the city for a sixth day in a row. At least two blasts rocked the Lebanese capital earlier today followed by a large plume of smoke that lingered over the city. That's happening as Israeli ground troops push further into the country. But sources are also telling us that the latest ceasefire effort is getting traction in Beirut.

Nada joins us. What are these indications there, Nada?

NADA BASHIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We've been hearing from sources and officials familiar with the ongoing talks. They've told CNN that they are somewhat optimistic around the progress of these discussions. It's understood that the proposal was presented to Hezbollah officials who are considering this current agreement on the table and that Lebanese political officials have also been discussing the terms of the agreement currently on the table.

This is the first time we've seen a ceasefire proposal put forward to Lebanese and Hezbollah officials since around October -- early October. Of course, there had been questions around whether there would be any progress towards a ceasefire following the killing and assassination of Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah. But clearly there has been mounting pressure on all sides.

We have seen no let-up in Israel's airstrikes on Lebanon particularly in the capital Beirut and an expanding ground incursion in the south. And on the other side we continue to see Hezbollah rockets being fired into Israeli territory as well. So real pressure coming from the international community particularly from the United States for there to be some sort of pause in fighting at least.

And of course that is what is on the table currently according to those familiar with the talks who have told CNN that at this stage the ceasefire proposal would stipulate a 60-day cessation in hostilities in the hope that this would then lead to a lasting ceasefire.

What is crucial is that we understand that the terms of the ceasefire agreement presented to Hezbollah and Lebanese officials essentially sits within the parameters of U.N. Resolution 1701 which essentially ended the 2006 Lebanon-Israel war. And of course what this resolution stipulates is that in terms of the armed groups present in southern Lebanon below the Litani River it should only really be the Lebanese army and U.N. peacekeeping forces so that would mean no Hezbollah presence or no presence of Hezbollah fighters below this line and that is something that of course the Israeli government has been pushing for.

They have expressed their aim to eradicate Hezbollah's presence from this southern border area. Of course this would be a significant concession on the part of Hezbollah but again there is mounting pressure particularly as we continue to see Israeli airstrikes pummeling parts of the country's capital Beirut and in particular areas that are considered to be Hezbollah strongholds but also very populous with the Shiite community. These are also residential areas filled with civilians and of course the country is still grappling with an enormous mass displacement crisis as a result of Israel's military onslaught on the country.

And as you mentioned we are now seeing according to Israeli officials the deepening, the expansion of Israel's ground operation in the south so a significant point of concern there.

Now, we have heard expressions of optimism around these ceasefire discussions, however, how Hezbollah will respond given the ongoing airstrikes we are seeing in Beirut, the 6th straight day of airstrikes with dozens killed just in the last week across the country including civil defense workers and emergency workers. It remains to be seen how they will respond. Sources tell us we could expect an official response as early as Monday night but of course this is all very much in flux.

Max?

[05:20:26]

FOSTER: OK Nada, thank you so much for that update.

We are learning that a member of the Lebanese women's national soccer squad was wounded in the Israeli strikes. A former teammate says Celine Haidar is in critical condition after the attack in Beirut which was yesterday.

A member of the country's soccer association posted a message on social media urging Haidar to stay strong and saying she is an inspiration for many. Israel says it took steps to mitigate harm to civilians from the strikes.

Iran says it was caught off guard by reports that its U.N. ambassador recently met with Elon Musk. Tehran categorically denies the meeting ever even happened and says it was surprised by the coverage in the U.S. media.

The "Associated Press" and the "New York Times" said the two met earlier this week allegedly discussing ways to dial down the tensions. The alleged meeting raised questions about Musk's influence on future U.S. foreign policy. He has already been picked as a co-leader of what has been dubbed the Department of Government Efficiency. But Musk will only be an advisor and it is still unclear how that body will actually operate.

Well, Russia has launched one of its largest air attacks across Ukraine over the past few hours. Ukrainian air defenses can be seen shooting down incoming missiles in the skies over Kyiv early on Sunday.

At least two people have been killed and eight wounded. Officials in Ukraine say the attacks targeted energy facilities using both drones and missiles. Blasts could be heard across the country including the western regions.

Residents in Kyiv were forced to take shelter in underground train stations during the attacks. Ukraine's Foreign Minister slammed Russia for launching air attacks against "peaceful cities," sleeping civilians and critical infrastructure.

The Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says he believes Russia's war in Ukraine will end faster once Donald Trump takes office. Here is what he told a Ukrainian radio station on Friday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): I believe that the war will end and it will not end in the abstract but there is no exact date. However, the war will end faster with the policy of this team that will now lead the White House. This is their approach, their promise to their society and it is also very important to them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: President-elect Trump has repeatedly claimed that the war in Ukraine which has been raging for more than two and a half years would not have happened if he was in the White House. During his campaign he vowed he could settle the war in a day but never explained quite how he would go about it.

A stunning moment in the eastern European country of Georgia, the head of the Central Electoral Commission was doused with black paint during a meeting to confirm election results. The commission member who did it says the results do not reflect the voters of true choice. Officials announced the ruling that the Georgian Green Party won nearly 54% of the October election. The pro-western opposition believes the vote was rigged though.

Donald Trump has promised to pardon the January 6th rioters, but will he? Ahead, CNN speaks with a convicted rioter who says she is certain he will deliver.

Around the world anti-democratic governments are gaining power. Why, one research group says democracies are outnumbered.

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[05:27:17]

FOSTER: Welcome back to CNN Newsroom. I'm Max Foster. If you're just joining us, here are today's top stories. President Joe Biden and his Chinese counterpart discussing the future of U.S.-Chinese relations on the sidelines of the APEC summit in Peru. The two leaders talked candidly about their outstanding diplomatic concerns and the need to maintain open communication under a Trump administration.

Meanwhile, the President-elect and some of his nominees for Cabinet positions got ringside seats at a cage match. The entourage at Madison Square Garden included Elon Musk, Tulsi Gabbard, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and House Speaker Mike Johnson. They were ushered in by UFC Chief Executive Dana White.

But the real fight could come in Senate confirmation hearings as Trump doubles down on support for his most controversial Cabinet picks like Matt Gaetz. The President-elect is still mulling how to fill key positions, including Treasury Secretary.

Hundreds of Trump supporters arrested for their roles in the January 6th attack on the U.S. Capitol are now waiting to see whether the President-elect will deliver on a promise they made to them on the campaign trail. Trump has said he would absolutely consider pardoning every one of those defendants, but his team has since hedged that a bit, saying any decisions will be made on a case-by-case basis.

CNN's Donie O'Sullivan has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Today was amazing. Woke up with the president of the United States, the rightful president, back in his spot. And today, after 828 days, we're going to pop some champagne and raise a glass to President Trump.

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's the night after the election.

SHERRI HAFNER, J6 PARDON ACTIVIST: Mama Mickey, we love you honey. And we are so grateful for you bringing this freedom family together.

(APPLAUSE)

O'SULLIVAN: Trump supporters have gathered here, as they have every night for the last 800 nights outside the Washington, D.C. jail.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): How did you feel when Trump won last night?

HAFNER: I knew that meant freedom for our guys. And I was overwhelmed, thankful. And I know that God heard our prayers.

O'SULLIVAN: Are you emotional?

HAFNER: Yes.

O'SULLIVAN: Yes.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Jan 6 inmates call in to talk to the organizers nightly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This whole journey, this stressful barring journey has finally come to an end with the election of our beloved President Donald J. Trump.

HAFNER: I couldn't stop crying last night that you guys are finally going to get pardoned. You're going to be set free. And all of this is going to be behind us. But I'll tell you, brother, I am so blessed to be part of this J6 family.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Trump has repeatedly promised to give pardons to some people serving time for their actions on January 6th.

[05:30:30:11]

SUZZANNE MONK, FOUNDER, J6 PARDON PROJECT: And now we have to continue to put pressure on the president to make that right decision to fulfill that promise. And I know that he will. But I also know my president understands trust, but verify.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): One person who certainly hopes to be pardoned is Rachel Powell.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): How do you feel when you watch this?

RACHEL POWELL, PARTICIPANT IN THE JANUARY 6 UNITED STATES CAPITOL ATTACK: You know, I think I am more numb when I look at this stuff. It's like surreal to me. I mean, look how angry I look.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): I met Rachel back in January of this year, right before she was about to go to prison for crimes she committed at the Capitol on January 6th, while protesting what she believed was a stolen election.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Have you ever had a moment where you're like, you know, maybe I'm wrong? Maybe Biden actually won the election. Maybe I'm the conspiracy theorist.

R. POWELL: No, not at all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This call is from a federal prison.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Rachel and I stayed in touch throughout the year.

R. POWELL (on the phone): I feel like I just need to be home with my family.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Rachel has eight children, ranging in ages from 8 to 28, along with seven grandkids. We spoke to three of Rachel's older daughters, Adah, Rebekah, and Savannah.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Wait, this is you and your mom?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

O'SULLIVAN: When was this taken?

REBEKAH FEDOSICK, DAUGHTER OF RACHEL POWELL: Yes, this is in the prison. This is Ada, our mom. This is Gideon (ph), me, and my husband.

SAVANNAH HUNTINGTON, DAUGHTER OF RACHEL POWELL: The only thing I could think of when I heard that Trump won the election was that my mom is coming home. She's going to be able to come home now. And it just -- I was so excited, you know, just we're going to have our mom back.

FEDOSICK: You just know she's freaking out.

HUNGTINGTON: Yes. She's so excited. She's so happy.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Their mom was found guilty of engaging in physical violence and of destruction of government property for breaking a window at the Capitol with an ice axe.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Do you ever just think, oh mom, I wish you didn't go to Washington, D.C. that day?

ADAH POWELL, DAUGHTER OF RACHEL POWELL: I feel like that's a pretty normal thought to have when there's so many consequences to the actions, but ultimately she was going to support something she believed in --

FEDOSICK: Yes.

A. POWELL: And she is our mother. So we support her in whatever she decides to do.

O'SULLIVAN: Yes.

FEDOSICK: I don't blame her for going. I kind of wish she had a little like held herself back.

A. POWELL: Maybe a little more restraint would have been nice.

FEDOSICK: Exactly. Yes.

O'SULLIVAN: You guys are not of the opinion. Your mom went to Washington, D.C. chasing a conspiracy theory, chasing a lie.

HUNTINGTON: No.

A. POWELL: No.

HUNTINGTON: No.

A. POWELL: Yes. She had a strong belief, she wanted to go support it, and we all share her belief that it was definitely stolen in our opinions.

O'SULLIVAN: You're certain he will pardon your mom?

A. POWELL: Yes.

HUNTINGTON: Yes. Yes, he will keep to what he said. He will keep his word. He is going to pardon her.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): While we were at Rachel's home, she called from prison.

R. POWELL: Oh man, when Trump won, it was amazing. It was -- which I knew, I knew that that's what the American people wanted, so I had no doubt. But, as everybody knows, I believe there was election fraud last time, and so I just wondered, are we going to have a fair election this time? And it appears that we did, because Trump got elected.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): And do you think he's going to pardon you?

R. POWELL: I know he's going to pardon me.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): There's already some media talk about Trump shouldn't pardon people, Trump shouldn't pardon J6 people. What do you say to those people?

R. POWELL: I'm not worried about what they say because I believe that Trump's a man of his word. And I believe that he's going to do what --

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): And we got cut off. That's how it normally is, is it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's what it does. Fifteen minutes, you're done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Dozens of political protesters have finally been released in Venezuela. Nearly 70 people were released from four prisons across the country. More than 1,800 people were detained for protesting against July's disputed presidential election.

The results saw President Nicolas Maduro re-elected, despite worldwide speculation about the validity of the results. The group Human Rights Watch says there are credible reports of 24 people being killed during the crackdowns on the protests.

The Philippines' former president, Rodrigo Duterte, is trying to make a comeback after a series of scandals. He's now running for mayor in his hometown, where he held power for more than two decades. It comes amid an investigation by the International Criminal Court over his brutal anti-drugs crackdown as president. Analysts say Duterte's return to politics is a desperate bid to strengthen support for his family against the Philippines' other famed political dynasty, the Marcoses. The midterm elections will be held in May.

[05:35:01]

With Maduro tightening his grip on power, Duterte vying for a return to office and the transition to a new Trump administration underway. Researchers and scholars like those at the Bertelsmann Foundation are watching very closely. They say the quality of global democracy has deteriorated over the past 20 years, according to the Foundation's Transformation Index, which tracks 137 countries with developing or emerging economies. The 63 democratic countries are now outnumbered by 74 countries identified as autocratic.

The Foundation defines autocracy as a state that does not have free and fair elections or a functioning constitutional government. The Bertelsmann Foundation says the COVID-19 pandemic, as well as Russia's war on Ukraine, are factors that contribute to autocratic tendencies in government.

In fact, in the last two years alone, they say elections in 25 countries have been less free and fair than they were before. In 39 countries, freedom of expression and freedom of the press have been increasingly restricted as well.

Sabine Donner joins us now. She is a Senior Expert with the Bertelsmann Foundation. Thank you so much for joining us. I mean, autocracy is a word that's bandied about so much, isn't it? You have situations where you have a country like China, where it seems like a clearer example, but you're also having accusations being made against the U.S., where it's becoming more autocratic under a will do, under a Trump regime, in the way that you see these appointments lining up. I mean, how would you define it? How should we be looking at it?

SABINE DONNER, SENIOR EXPERT, BERTELSMANN FOUNDATION: Well, I mean, we have to make a distinction. There are clear authoritarian governments like China, just like you mentioned, no elections, no freedom of expression, no rule of law, or at least not for everyone. So -- and there are democracies who are taking a more and more authoritarian turn. That would be something that we fear for the U.S., actually, where institutions that are bound to, and installed, actually, to constrain power of the executives are undermined more and more.

FOSTER: I mean, the issue some people would have with this argument is that, certainly in America, and no-one's questioning whether or not it was a free and fair election, the public clearly voted for Donald Trump in the clearest way possible, really. So that is democracy, isn't it, even if he does curtail some of the institution's abilities?

DONNER: Absolutely, there's no doubt about it that the elections were free and fair. And I mean, you know, even though elections are the only defining criteria for democracy, it is, of course, at the core of the democracy, so that a government, an incumbent government, has voted out, which is actually the normal thing for democracy. Let's not forget that in countries like Turkey, Azerbaijan, Russia, voters don't have that say. Another factor is, of course, that the losers of an election accept the results, and that happened in the U.S. as well.

FOSTER: What do you make of what's happening in parts of Europe where you see this rise of the right, and you are seeing parties taking control, or at least firmly in opposition positions, who do certainly have autocratic tendencies, but are still operating in fair democracies, most people would argue. What concerns you about that?

DONNER: Well, I mean, the concerning thing is actually not that from one day to the next, authoritarian-leaning governments are abolishing democracy, but that they are gradually undermining the institutions that are important. Like I said, rule of law, the justice system, politicizing institutions -- oversight institutions, et cetera. So there's a danger and a threat that continues, and there are ways to fight that, that elected governments are trying to cling to power.

FOSTER: What do you think people are finding appealing about autocratic leaders right now? Because there's a trend, isn't there, certainly across the West, for, you know, leaders that do speak in an autocratic way. And if you take someone like President Trump as well, who, you know, reaches out to other, well, to clearly autocratic leaders.

DONNER: I'm not sure if we can say that people turn against democracy and have a thing for authoritarian leaders only. I think what we can see is that people are dissatisfied with their governments. And in fact, if you're looking not only at Europe, but beyond Europe and the U.S., you can also see that there is no clear ideological shift.

[05:40:10]

Actually, when we look at the 2024 election super cycle, for example, voters don't seem to be running against progressive or conservative parties. They're just fed up with the governments and tend to elect the opposition into power to see whether, you know, things change. Inflation explains a lot of that.

No, I'm not -- we cannot underestimate the threat, actually, of radical parties and authoritarian leaders. But if you're looking at studies that are examining the perceptions of people, it's that, you know, an overwhelming majority is still in favor of democracy, in favor of choosing their leaders. It's just that in polarized situation and with the, you know, times of uncertainties that we live in, there is, of course, a danger that democracy is less important.

Don't forget that there have been elections and protests all over the world, actually, and election results that supported a democratic change, or at least halted democratic backsliding, like in Poland, but also in India, for example.

FOSTER: OK, Sabine Donner, really appreciate your time today. Thank you for coming on to the show.

The U.S. Justice Department is investigating an Illinois County Sheriff's Office over the death of a black woman who called emergency services. That story much more ahead after the break. And two election workers are also starting to collect on a $150 million debt owed to them by former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani. Coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[05:45:00]

FOSTER: The U.S. Justice Department is investigating an Illinois County Sheriff's Office after the fatal shooting of a black woman who had called authorities for help. Court documents say Sonya Massey called 911 in July to report a possible intruder at her home. Body camera footage showed that the deputy who responded ended up shooting her in the head.

Officials have criticized the deputy's actions as an unjustified use of deadly force. Dispatch records show the Sheriff's Department had been told Massey was having a mental health crisis. Deputy Sean Grayson has been charged with murder and has pleaded not guilty.

It's time for former New York Mayor and Trump associate, Rudy Giuliani, to pay up and begin handing over luxury assets to two Georgia election workers that he defamed. Some of those items include a Mercedes convertible, a diamond ring and his Manhattan apartment. There's also a sizable luxury watch collection. The former New York Mayor has owed nearly $150 million for almost a year. CNN Correspondent Gloria Pazmino has that story for us.

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GLORIA PAZMINO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, there's a long list of items that former Mayor Rudy Giuliani is supposed to hand over to Shaye Moss and Ruby Freeman. They are the two women who sued him for defamation and a judge found that he had defamed them after he, without evidence, accused them of having tried to steal the 2020 election and of rigging the votes in Georgia.

Now, some of the items that Giuliani has to turn over include his $6 million apartment, a watch collection, a diamond ring, a furniture, a television and a 1980 Mercedes-Benz convertible.

Now, this past Friday was a critical deadline for Giuliani who has tried to delay having to turn over some of these items while he tries to argue that he should be allowed to keep some of them. But we got video from Friday showing one of his assistants preparing to ship the luxury watch collection via FedEx to both Shaye Moss and Ruby Freeman.

Now, this is a remarkable fall from grace for the former mayor of New York City, a man who was once referred to as America's mayor and it's been a long running saga after he accused Moss and Freeman of having something to do with rigging the election which of course we know did not happen.

Now, in the last several months, Giuliani has tried to delay this judgment at first by arguing that he was bankrupt, that proceeding was thrown out of court after he failed to comply with basic requirements of the court. And now by saying that he wants to be able to hold on to some of the items. There are some things in the list of things that Giuliani has to turn over that the judge will still get to decide on. But for now, the process has started.

Now, we're talking about $148 million judgment against Giuliani. So the reality is that it's unlikely he'll ever be able to fully pay what he owes to Moss and Freeman. But for now, by turning over his watch collection as well as his apartment, some of the sports memorabilia as well as the car, it seems that that process has finally gotten started.

Gloria Pazmino, CNN, New York.

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FOSTER: And we'll be right back.

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FOSTER: Bela Karolyi, the Romanian-American gymnastics coach who trained Olympic gold medalists Mary Lou Retton and Nadia Comaneci, has died. The legendary coach was a member of five

U.S. Olympic team stars and is credited with catapulting USA Gymnastics to new levels of success.

Under his leadership, a young Comaneci famously scored the perfect 10 in Olympic gymnastics. However, his rigorous coaching methods were criticized by some former gymnasts as abusive and even drew legal scrutiny to his famed training facility.

Bela Karolyi was 82 years old.

Georgia quarterback Carson Beck has faced a lot of criticism this season, especially after the Bulldogs fell to number 16 last week. But it was looking for redemption this week against second rival Tennessee. Coy Wire with us now with more. Hi, Coy.

COY WIRE, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: They were the preseason number one, but after a couple of tough losses, they're on a mission to silence all the critics. After falling behind 10-0 to the seventh- ranked team in the nation, Tennessee at home, the number 11 Bulldogs get to work. Going on a 31-7 run, incredible throw by quarterback Carson Beck.

A laser between three defenders. Beck, who's been one of the most criticized Bulldogs, a huge part of the rally, completing 25 passes, 346 yards and three total touchdowns. Georgia wins 31-17. Beck asked afterwards how he found the best version of his game.

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CARSON BECK, GEORGIA BULLDOGS QUARTERBACK: In few weeks, no matter what situation, whether it's a win, a loss, whether it's -- we come out in the first half slow, we just keep pushing. Man, gosh, it feels so good to play for this team and I'm just so thankful for the opportunity to get to lead these guys. And for me, when I just played for them, I mean, that is the best version of myself. So as much as I can do that and just play for the guys around me, man, I just love these guys.

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WIRE: All right, the number one team in the nation, Oregon at Madison, trailing at halftime for just the second time this season. They were down 13-6 in the fourth, but here they come. Jordan James rushing for 11 of his 121 yards and a score. The field goal made it 16-13, Oregon, but the Badgers had a chance with under two minutes to go. The Ducks' defense quacks the code. Interception by Matayo Uiagalelei, sealing the deal. Oregon comes from behind to win and remain undefeated at 11- 0.

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To Boulder now, Deion Sanders, number 17, Colorado, taking on Utah and Colorado's two-way superstar, Travis Hunter. It's a takeover. Doing it on defense, picking off a pass that bounces up off the receiver there. He strikes the Heisman pose. He's one of the favorites to win the award for best player in college football. Hunter at receiver now. Long pass from Shedeur Sanders, and look at Hunter make the ridiculous catch. His body goes parallel to the ground after he gets blasted midair.

The Buffaloes look for their fourth straight win. How about a touchdown now for Travis Hunter? He gets the ball in a reverse and runs one in, flying into the end zone, and he strikes another Heisman pose. Sanders finished with 340 yards passing, three touchdowns. Colorado dominates the Utes, 49-24.

Finally, Max, the Washington Spirit advancing to the NWSL final in dramatic fashion. Trailing by one in stoppage time to defending champs Gotham FC. Rookie Hal Hershfelt, keeps the spirit alive with that header to equalize, and it went to penalties to decide it.

And Washington goalie Aubrey Kingsbury stepping up big time. She saves three straight penalties. Spirit taking this one, three nothing on penalties to move on to the final for the third time. Max, we have an incredible day of NFL football underway today. This week features three games in which all teams playing are seven or more wins. The parity in the league is great. Should be an awesome Sunday, fun day.

FOSTER: I'm still blown away by the goalie. What a player.

WIRE: My goodness.

FOSTER: Coy, thank you so much.

WIRE: You got it.

FOSTER: Thanks for joining me here on CNN Newsroom. I'm Max Foster in London. For those of you in the U.S., CNN This Morning is up next. For those of you overseas, it is "Artisans."

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