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Will Trump Keep Promise on Lowering Gas Prices?; How Could Trump Reward Elon Musk For Election Victory?; Texas Votes on Adding Bible Lessons to School Curriculum. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired November 19, 2024 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:02]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Your organization is currently suing him over this mandate that we were just talking about.

When I pressed him on that, he claimed that people like you are radical left-wing activists. What's your response?

RACHEL LASER, PRESIDENT AND CEO, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: My response is that church-state separation is an American original, that it's a mainstream issue. It's as American as apple pie.

That's why in our lawsuit against Ryan Walters -- which I'm really proud to be leading Americans United, by the way, who sued twice, actually. We can talk about both lawsuits. So that's why in our lawsuit, we have brought together 32 plaintiffs. We have 14 parents, 14 schoolchildren. We have four public schoolteachers and clergy.

They're all coming together across such a diverse group of backgrounds. They're Catholics, Presbyterians, United Church of Christ. They're agnostic, atheist, nonreligious. They're parents of LGBTQ kids, parents of kids with disabilities who are worried about religious coercion affecting their kids.

And they're coming together to say, parents and students, not politicians, should get to decide if, how, and when children engage in religion.

BROWN: I want to follow up. I have to say, I got so many responses from viewers to that interview that I did.

And I got this one response from an Oklahoman named Kahner Green. He is a fifth-generation Oklahoman who has repeatedly spoken out against superintendent Walters and the school board there. I want to read some of what he told me.

He said: "I am a product of the Oklahoma public school system. As a God-fearing Christian, I firmly believe that religion should remain a personal matter, left in the home, not dictated by an elected leader, especially one who has failed so profoundly."

And I'm wondering. You kind of -- you mentioned you're representing a wide swathe of people, but tell us more about the devout Christians that you're representing in this and their views of how these actions could violate the separation of church and state.

LASER: Across this country right now, there's a swelling movement of Christians fighting Christian nationalism.

And they're doing it because they care deeply about their neighbors' religious freedom. They care deeply about our country, America, and its foundational promise of religious freedom, but also because they care about their religion. And they know that when you don't separate church and state, it sullies religion and subjects religion to strings that are attached from the government. And that's bad for religion.

Roger Williams, a Baptist pastor who founded the state of -- colony of Rhode Island, famously said, forced worship stinks in God's nostrils.

BROWN: So we're going to get a little bit more into what the proponents of this curriculum in Oklahoma, Louisiana and elsewhere say, but you have got these ongoing lawsuits, including the Louisiana law requiring public schools to put in the Ten Commandments.

We know a federal judge temporarily blocked that. Do you plan to sue Texas over this proposed curriculum as well? As I just noted and laid out, it's for kindergarten to fifth grade.

LASER: Right, so right now we plan to make sure that all superintendents across the state know what the Constitution says. And the Constitution, by the way, is very clear. It's been clear since 1963 from the Supreme Court that you can't teach the Bible as truth, right?

You can -- let's just talk about this for a minute. You can teach the Bible in terms of how it's referenced in literature, how it's referenced by art. You can teach even about the role that it's played in history, but you can't teach the Bible as truth. And all studies have shown that when public schools try to teach about the Bible, they teach about it like they're teaching in Sunday schools.

And that's unconstitutional and un-American.

BROWN: It raises the question IF kindergartners would be able to decipher some of the Bible teachings and...

LASER: Yes, and that's what this curriculum is that they're voting on in Texas. It's an elementary school curriculum, kindergarten through fifth grade, right?

And I want to also point out that the Supreme Court over time has paid special attention to schoolchildren, right, because they know that schoolchildren are impressionable and they're captive audiences in schools and they don't want schoolchildren to feel like they're part of the in group or the government-sanctioned in group or the out group based on their religious beliefs.

That's anti-American. That's not what this country was founded on. This country was founded on church-state separation as the shield that protects religious freedom for all of us. And patriots across this nation should be standing up and saying this is overreach and we will not tolerate this assault on this foundational promise of America.

BROWN: There are proponents for this in these states where we're seeing this happen. There is a proponent such as Jonathan Covey with the conservative Texas Values group.

And they say, look, this isn't about evangelizing students. He says the curriculum is -- quote -- "grade-level appropriate instructional materials that include contextually relevant religious topics from a wide range of faiths."

And he added: "It has always been understood that religion has a place in American civil society," so really pushing the idea that this is about teaching history and helping students better understand U.S. culture and the role the Bible played in all of that, not evangelizing. What do you say?

[11:35:13]

LASER: Historians agree that America was founded as a secular nation, right?

Just look at Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the Virginia statute for religious freedom, which you talked about yesterday, which is seen as the underlier for the First Amendment. And I will use his antiquated language. But what he said, back in the 1700s, think of how radical that was, is that he was fighting for the religious freedom of Gentiles and Jews, Hindus, Mohammedans, he said, and the infidels of every faith.

That's a beautiful thing. It's an American original. Our country is based on a secular Constitution where the First Amendment embeds the promise of church-state separation and religious freedom.

BROWN: Let me just quickly follow up. I know we have to go, but you say the Supreme Court has ruled, look, you can't evangelize, to use that word, for public schoolkids.

But the Bible can be used in teaching to help kids better understand. So where is that line, I guess I would say?

LASER: Yes, the line is teaching about the Bible as truth is unconstitutional, right? And that's very clear from longstanding Supreme Court precedent.

And teaching about the Bible as our core values for American history, that's educational malpractice because it's a lie. It's not true about this country. This is a secular country where our country is very clear that separating religion and government is the guarantee of religious freedom for all.

And I just want to say to parents out there across the country, if in your public schools you see any evidence of your kids' religious freedom being assaulted or impaired, please file a complaint at AU.org. And our lawyers are here to fight for you. BROWN: All right, Rachel Laser, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

LASER: Thank you.

BROWN: Still ahead this hour: President-elect Trump is expected to watch the latest SpaceX rocket launch today alongside the man who helped him get elected.

My next guest has some new reporting about what Elon Musk could possibly be expecting in return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:41:43]

BROWN: President-elect Trump will travel to Texas today to join Elon Musk for a SpaceX launch. The billionaire businessman helped elect Trump, donating more than $100 million in support of his reelection.

Their meetup today serves as just the latest example of Musk's growing role in Trump's inner circle.

"New York Times" investigative business reporter Kirsten Grind joins us now.

So tell us more about this budding bromance we're seeing. Musk has obviously spent a significant amount of time with Trump since his reelection. What are you learning about what's going on behind the scenes?

KIRSTEN GRIND, INVESTIGATIVE BUSINESS REPORTER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": That's right.

Well, Elon Musk and Donald Trump are pretty much best friends, it seems like, at this point. We saw over the weekend they were at the UFC fight together. They're eating fast-food. Elon Musk has been at Mar-a-Lago pretty much since the election. So it's just been really astonishing to watch the kind of influence this megabillionaire has had on this new Trump administration.

BROWN: And you have reported that, even before Trump was reelected, Musk requested that Trump hire SpaceX employees as top government officials.

What more can you tell us about that?

GRIND: That's right.

Well, it just shows how early his influence has started in this administration that Elon Musk, someone who has really never been in politics at all before this, is recommending people to the transition team to speak with at his own companies, SpaceX and others.

So it's just been really interesting to see how much he has Donald Trump's ear through this whole process.

BROWN: Right.

And we know that he has been asked to co-lead this new government agency aimed at slashing government spending and it's all about efficiency. But you have to wonder, too, what else Musk might be hoping to get in return during a second Trump administration, also given his significant investment during the campaign.

GRIND: Well, he has so much to gain from this administration. His companies hold billions of dollars in government contracts. His companies touch kind of every single regulatory body in some way.

So having this kind of outsized influence is just going to help SpaceX. It's going to help his electric vehicle company, Tesla. It's going to help him all around. So his spending more than $100 million during this election to get Trump elected, the return is going to be great for him.

BROWN: So, as a reporter, then what will you be looking for in terms of potential conflicts of interest, given the billions of dollars in contracts you just pointed out?

GRIND: We're definitely going to be looking at the conflicts of interest.

Me and my colleagues, we have been looking at the way he is going to handle this new Department of Efficiency. That's basically this new area that he's running with another Republican. We're just kind of looking towards his past to see how he will act in this administration.

And, honestly, we're also looking to see how long this relationship with Trump will actually last.

BROWN: Well, let's talk a little bit more about that because you have written extensively about Musk. How do you explain his embrace of Trump and his rising influence over the president-elect?

[11:45:03]

GRIND: It's really an astonishing transformation.

It has a lot to do with Elon Musk's own turn to the right over the last several years. The thing is, these are two men who are just so similar. They both really believe that they are the ones to shake up the status quo. They're the only ones that can do it. They don't believe in sort of like the old-school government process.

So what we're all kind of looking at is just how long they can both be at the center of this stage.

BROWN: I also wonder what you think about Musk weighing in on some of his Cabinet picks. He had weighed in on Howard Lutnick for Treasury secretary. We just found out this morning that Trump is actually -- he's the pick for commerce secretary, not Treasury.

And now he's weighing in on Matt Gaetz, saying that Matt Gaetz should be the attorney general amid all this controversy. What do you make of that?

GRIND: That's right. I just saw his Matt Gaetz tweet as well.

It's just -- it sort of begs the question, right, I mean, where -- why does Elon Musk have that kind of position where he can be offering that kind of perspective, right? He basically is this megabillionaire who runs all these companies, but he doesn't really have any sort of history in the government and has shunned politics.

And yet here he is behind the scenes, whispering in Trump's ear, and he's basically used his social media platform, X, to advocate his position all these candidates. So it's just been a really interesting transformation to watch.

BROWN: Kirsten Grind, thank you so much. It's so interesting to hear your perspective as someone who has followed and written about Musk for so long. Thank you.

GRIND: Thanks for having me.

BROWN: And still ahead this hour: It was one of the most ambitious promises of Trump's campaign, cut energy costs and gas prices in half within one year.

New details about his plans to pull that off -- next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:51:11]

BROWN: Donald Trump's campaign vow to drill baby drill is taking shape now that he's headed back to the White House. He has tapped fracking supporter Chris Wright for energy secretary and North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum to lead the Interior Department.

The two men will sit on a newly created Council on National Energy, all part of a plan that Trump says will make U.S. energy-dominant worldwide by boosting oil production and reducing regulations.

Patrick De Haan, head of petroleum analysis for GasBuddy, joins us now.

Hey, Patrick.

So, Trump claims he will cut energy prices in half and one year, but the U.S. currently produces 13 million barrels of oil a day. The EIA says that is a record that will likely not be broken. Is Trump's claim possible?

PATRICK DE HAAN, HEAD OF PETROLEUM ANALYSIS, GASBUDDY: Well, it's really all about you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. That's the similarities here is, President Trump can ease regulation to potentially incentivize oil companies to drill more, but he can't require them.

U.S. oil companies are beholden to their shareholders, not a U.S. president. So the difficulty here is Trump cannot mandate oil companies produce more. In addition, the problem is, oil companies would be unprofitable if suddenly oil prices were cut in half. They'd be hemorrhaging billions of dollars.

And so U.S. oil industry and its production are probably not likely to go up if somehow the cost of oil were to be threatened.

BROWN: And oil prices depend heavily on global issues like supply and demand, right? So how much control does a U.S. president actually have over that? What tools would he have to really impact the prices?

DE HAAN: Exactly. This is a global commodity. The U.S. cannot simply fence itself off from that global economy.

The U.S. already exports millions of barrels of oil per day. Keep in mind we also import millions of barrels of oil per day from Canada. So to mess with that and to put a fence around U.S. oil producers could certainly do more harm than good.

And, as you mentioned, the president has little control over global geopolitics, especially what's going on between Russia and Ukraine. He has promised some resolution there, but I wouldn't look for U.S. oil companies and other countries to start jumping into bed with Russia doing business with again buying their oil, even if there is peace in Ukraine.

And that's the long-term issue here is that the president is powerless in the weight of global supply and demand balances.

BROWN: But wouldn't sanctions get in the way of U.S. companies doing deals with American adversaries?

DE HAAN: Well, they certainly could. If President Trump ratchets up the pressure on Iran come January, there still would be a potential offset.

OPEC has been looking to boost oil production. They have already kicked the can on resuming oil production to January. If president- elect Trump does harden sanctions on Iran, that could be offset with more oil from countries like Saudi Arabia, who is certainly looking to increase production.

In fact, next year with the slowdown in the global economy, President Trump may inherit some tailwinds here with OPEC production ready to go up in 2025.

BROWN: So I have got to ask you before I let you go about tariffs. Gas prices have been on the decline and you're predicting that they could fall below $3 a gallon as Thanksgiving nears.

But Trump wants to implement these tariffs on foreign goods, something that you say should have could have a real impact on gas prices. Tell us how.

DE HAAN: Well, it certainly could. Now, historically, tariffs have been a net negative to commodity-

producing countries. And right now, the U.S. is the world's largest oil producer, natural gas producer. That could backfire. Tariffs act as a tax on consumers. It could slow the economy down and throw it into a recession.

[11:55:02]

And that could eventually cause oil prices to plummet. So new tariffs could be taxing enough on the U.S. economy to cause even more of a slowdown than we have already seen. And it certainly risks a global catastrophe if we see those tariffs enacted.

BROWN: All right, Patrick, thank you so much for coming on.

And thank you all for joining me. I'm Pamela Brown. You can follow me on X, Instagram and TikTok @PamelaBrownCNN. I want to hear from you.

Stay with us. "INSIDE POLITICS WITH DANA BASH" starts after a short break.