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FAA Could Slow Thanksgiving Air Travel Due To Staffing Shortages; Northeast Snow Totals Top A Foot; Leaving Over 100K Without Power; Trump Picks Billionaire Scott Bessent To Lead Treasury Dept.; Sources: Tulsi Gabbard Briefly Put On TSA Watch List; Texas School Board Approves Bible-Based Curriculum For K-5 Schools; Ohio Is Considering A Bill That Would Allow Students To Opt Out Of Religious Instruction. Lebanese Officials: At Least 15 Killed In Israeli Airstrike On Central Beirut; Biden Hosts Gratitude Dinner At WH, Honors His Top Supporters; Defense Rests For Daniel Penny In Subway Chokehold Trial. Aired 12-1p ET

Aired November 23, 2024 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

[12:00:00]

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): -- revolutionary government and the American government.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that's when I knew we were going to be there for a while.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: And how it really happened with Jesse L. Martin airs tomorrow night at 9:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific on CNN.

Well that's all we have time for. Don't forget you can find all of our shows online as podcast at CNN.com/audio and on all other major platforms.

I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York. Thanks so much for watching.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello everyone, thank you so much for joining me this Saturday. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

All right, it's almost that time of year. Time for millions of us to start making our moves for the Thanksgiving holiday. And the weather, well it's not exactly cooperating. The TSA is expecting over 18 million Americans to fly over the long holiday weekend and week.

A record number and a notable uptick from just last year. But be forewarned between stormy weather in several states and potential air traffic control shortages in the Northeast, there could be significant airport delays. Parts of New York and Pennsylvania, by the way, have already gotten over 1 foot of snow, paralyzing traffic in some areas and leaving more than 100,000 people without power this afternoon. It's a hodgepodge of a whole lot, all the stuff that you really don't want for a holiday week.

But CNN Meteorologist Allison Chinchar, she is someone we do want and we want you to bring some sunshine to this very stormy weather. Is it possible?

ALLISON CHINCHAR, CNN METEOROLOGIST: We've gone to these some spots, Fred, that really don't have any issues traveling, but there's also going to be a few issues out there. So let's kind of break it down.

We start in the Northeast where, yes, this is what --

WHITFIELD: Wow.

CHINCHAR: -- seems yesterday and even early this morning. Looked like this is from aptly named Mount Storm, West Virginia. You can see here and pretty significant snowfall totals. Take a look at this, high point, New Jersey in the last 36 hours, picking up nearly 2 feet of snow.

This system was definitely an overachiever, but other portions of Pennsylvania, New York, picking up well over 1 foot of snow. Now that system is starting to wind back down. You've got just a few lingering areas of showers, both rain and snow for portions of Massachusetts, Maine, up in New Hampshire and Vermont.

The snow really kind of sticking up in the extreme heights of the White and Green Mountains there. But we mentioned a few good spots, so let's highlight those. The southeast, much of the central U.S., no travel issues whatsoever for today. The only other bad spot is going to be out west.

We heard about the bomb cyclone earlier this week. That is done, but that atmospheric river is still funneling in a little bit extra moisture for today. So you're going to see that. You've still got some of these rain and snow showers pretty much up and down the Pacific Northwest and even into portions of northern and central California.

We'll finally start to see a lot of that moisture begin to recede at least in the next 24 to 48 hours. But it's not done entirely.

And then there's another system that comes in on Monday. So really, over the next four to five days, you're still looking at about 1 to 3 inches of rain, especially along the coastal regions and snow that's going to be measured in feet, 1 to 3 feet.

WHITFIELD: Wow.

CHINCHAR: -- likely for places like the Sierras. Now, when we fast forward, let's take a look at what Thanksgiving Day actually looks like. A lot of local travelers, people that are going to wait till the holiday itself before they get out. The big issues here are going to stretch safe from interior New York all the way back down to East Texas. That's where you're going to have the biggest concern, especially with rain showers. So then that begs the question. What about the Macy's Day Parade? A lot of folks either go to it or watch it at home.

This would be a good one. Maybe to just stay bundled up on your couch at home. There is a chance of showers. We are expecting rain in New York City, especially the back half of the day Thursday. So those first couple hours may be dry, but it's the latter few hours of the morning where we may have a few light showers that get mixed in.

Regardless, Fred, the temperatures alone in the upper 30s at best, probably not enough to convince someone like me to actually attend

WHITFIELD: Me either. I'll be watching it on TV --

CHINCHAR: I know.

WHITFIELD: -- with the smell of like, you know, baking apple pie or something indoors.

CHINCHAR: Perfect.

WHITFIELD: Happy to be inside. All right. Thank you so much, Allison Chinchar.

All right, join CNN for the ultimate Thanksgiving morning watch party featuring celebrity appearances and a live view of the parades across the country. So see, you can stay home and be all cozied up.

Thanksgiving in America hosted by John Berman and Erica Hill starts Thanksgiving Day, 8:00 a.m. right here on CNN and streaming on Max.

All right, and now to the flurry of new announcements coming out of Mar-a-Lago, President-elect Donald Trump is filling key health and economic roles in his administration. His new picks include hedge fund manager Scott Bessent as Treasury Secretary, Oregon Congresswoman Lori Chavez-DeRemer to lead the Department of Labor and Dr. Janette Nesheiwat, a family practice doctor as U.S. Surgeon General.

Sources tell CNN that Trump wanted to announce his key roles before the Thanksgiving holiday. And so here we are with many of them.

[12:05:06]

CNN's Alayna Treene is joining us now from near Trump's Florida home. Alayna, what more can you tell us about? Let's start with Trump's Treasury Secretary pick.

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Yes, that was one of the biggest roles that we had been waiting for a long time for Donald Trump to announce, Fred, especially because we had been hearing already two weeks ago that Donald Trump was leaning toward the hedge fund manager Scott Bessent to leave the Treasury Department. However, behind the scenes then, really we saw one of the biggest fights play out in this transition process so far at Mar-a-Lago over this role. We know that Howard Lutnick, one of Donald Trump's co- transition chairs, had really kind of had this contentious back and forth about whether Bessent was right for the role.

And he was also pushing himself for that role as well. We know that Lutnick ended up becoming the Secretary of Commerce. But, look, I will add as well that this is going to be a huge job for Bessent.

We know that Donald Trump over the entire campaign trail and in the lead up to the November 5th election, talked a lot about the economy and his economic promises. One thing in particular I think to keep an eye on is tariffs. We know that Donald Trump has vowed to impose widespread tariffs on imports.

He also has talked a lot about wanting to lower inflation, about wanting to deliver better mortgage rates for Americans. These are all things that Bessent is going to be tasked with carrying out as the head of the Treasury Department.

This is really where Donald Trump's economic policy is going to stem from. That's partly why it took Donald Trump such a long time to come to this decision and why it was such, in his mind, a big decision for him to make.

Now, one other thing as well that I will tell you is that Donald Trump over the last week had expanded his list when it came to Treasury decisions and the candidates that he was going to be talking to. We know that even as late as Wednesday, Donald Trump had interviewed two different people for that role.

He was still kind of contemplating who he thought would be the best pick. But with Bessent, I will say as well that many people in Donald Trump's orbit, those working on the transition with him, they had really been pushing for Bessent. They thought that he would be right for this role.

One, he is a big business name. A lot of people on Wall Street like him. They also believe that he should have an easy time getting through his confirmation process. We saw many senators, Republican senators, I should say, last night applauding Donald Trump's choice

So, we're moving forward now with this latest pick, one that I know Donald Trump is, I was told, happy to get off his plate.

WHITFIELD: In several other Cabinet and administration picks, Trump that is yesterday, who else kind of stands out to you?

TREENE: Yes, there were many. Bessent's name was one of nine different announcements, Fred, that Donald Trump released late last night. It kind of gave me flashbacks to when he was office under his first administration. He had those Friday night news dumps.

But, yes, he named a lot of people. He named his Secretary of Labor, many other health roles. But one name that also stood out to me just for having covered Donald Trump for several years now is Russell Vought.

He named him to be the head of the Office of Management and Budget, really the White House Budget Office. I will tell you, Vought is someone who, in the past, he ran the budget office in Donald Trump's first term, but he also in the years since had become a key architect of Project 2025.

We know that has been very controversial. Democrats tried to use Project 2025 to undermine Donald Trump's candidacy throughout the end of his campaign. But also, Donald Trump has tried to distance himself from that as well. Vought is someone, though, who is very close with Donald Trump.

He worked on that project. I believe that, you know, really, he had left and went to a different policy shop and really framed a lot of the policy agenda that people close to the former president believed would be operating for a second term if he was elected.

So I keep an eye out for him as well, Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, will do.

Alayna Treene, thank you so much.

All right, with me now to discuss the latest developments with Trump's transition is Kadia Goba. She is a political reporter for Semafor. Kadia, great to see you.

So let's begin with Trump's, you know, choice for Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent, a billionaire who made his fortune on Wall Street. He's also, you know, supporter of Trump's plan to raise tariffs to pay for tax cuts. So how do you think Republicans on Capitol Hill might view this pick?

KADIA GOBA, POLITICAL REPORTER, SEMAFOR: Yes, I think this is going to be very interesting. As you said, Bessent is a big proponent for tariffs. But in my reporting this week, you know, Republicans on the Hill, even though they are standing behind the president-elect and want to deliver his agenda, a little -- seem a little skeptical about tariffs.

Some of them feel like if this is going to go through a reconciliation package, which is like that broad policy maneuver that would, you know, suspend the 60 votes needed to deliver policy on the Senate side. It's not the revenue raiser that many of them, or that the president might think it is.

[12:10:08]

So this is going to be something I'm going to be watching carefully to see if Republicans on the Hill can align -- get aligned with Bessent on tariffs specifically.

WHITFIELD: OK, and also this week, it was a little tumultuous, shall we say. Matt Gaetz, I mean, Trump's, you know, pick for U.S. Attorney General, withdrew his name from consideration from that post after it became clear that he didn't have the votes in the Senate to get confirmed amid allegations of sexual misconduct and illegal drug use.

So now the focus shifts to another controversial pick, as Pete Hegseth, Trump's pick to be Defense Secretary, deals with the fallout from reports that he paid a woman who accuses him of sexual assault, this back in 2017. So how does Gaetz's withdrawal potentially impact Pete Hegseth's possible confirmation or hearing process?

GOBA: Yes, that's a great question. It appears that sexual misconduct is sort of plaguing this incoming administration's transition period. As you point out, first under with Matt Gaetz, former representative who abruptly resigned the other day, and now with Hegseth.

I mean, I think, you know, now that the seed has been planted, you know, senators are going to be very aware when it comes to the confirmation process. Obviously, they're going to want to have the details around any impropriety that Hegseth might have allegedly went through or experienced.

And I think it's going to be the forefront, probably of around his specific confirmation period. Again, Gaetz coming in and having such a tumultuous experience around this kind of highlights anything regarding something or anything related to sexual misconduct. And I think it'll be a -- in the forefront of Hegseth confirmation.

WHITFIELD: For sure. OK, and now we're also learning a little bit more involving Tulsi Gabbard, who is Trump's pick to be Director of National Intelligence, that she was briefly placed on a TSA watch list after her overseas travel patterns and foreign connections triggered a government algorithm early this year. So what can we expect about her upcoming journey on Capitol Hill?

GOBA: Yes, I think the Senate is probably going to focus on some of the ideology that Tulsi Gabbard has, you know, promoted. There have been a lot of alleged rumors around her kind of cozying up with foreign assets.

This is going to be an issue for her. It was one of the first thing alarms that people when I talked to Republicans, that was one of their first concerns. They also -- any interaction with a foreign, you know -- any interaction with a foreign country is going to be problematic for a person seeking that kind of position.

And I think that is going to play a major part, not to say that, you know, she won't get confirmed, because Republicans in both chambers are ready to deliver president-elect Donald Trump's agenda. But also they don't want to get in the way of his agenda or his confirmations.

We see about there are multiple members who are up for re-election in 2026. And the last thing they want is former President Trump tweeting something or putting something on social media that suggests that they aren't good for a re-election. So I think this is one of the quagmires that senators are going to have to deal with these confirmations.

WHITFIELD: Yes, it's going to be quite the tightrope, shall we say, for many of them.

GOBA: Yes.

WHITFIELD: Kadia Goba, thank you so much. Great to see you.

GOBA: Thanks for having me.

WHITFIELD: All right, still ahead this hour, Bible stories in public school, the new curriculum approved for elementary students in Texas. And the defense rests in the manslaughter trial of Daniel Penny, the man accused of holding Jordan Neely in a fatal chokehold on a New York City subway last year. Details straight ahead.

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[12:19:25]

WHITFIELD: Public schools in Texas will now have the option to use a curriculum that uses Bible lessons for children in grades K through 5. The State Board of Education approved the curriculum yesterday and legal challenges are expected.

CNN's Rosa Flores reports.

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ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A big win for the Republican-led effort to infuse Christianity into public schools.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 8-7 the motion passes.

FLORES (voice-over): Officials in Texas approved a controversial public school curriculum called Bluebonnet Learning that critics say disproportionately focuses on Christianity.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please vote now.

FLORES (voice-over): The days long debate at times becoming heated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please respect the rules.

[12:20:04]

FLORES (voice-over): Both sides voicing strong opinions.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Public schools are not Sunday schools.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These biblical references do not constitute an establishment of religion.

FLORES (voice-over): The Texas Education Agency defending its curriculum, telling CNN Bluebonnet Learning incorporates multiple faiths and religious content is a small part of the product.

Reaction outside schools in Houston mixed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And kids need the Bible.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just don't think it has a place in school.

FLORES (voice-over): And while these controversial K through 5 lessons are optional, some are concerned the state funded $60 per student incentive could encourage even some progressive budget strapped schools to adopt Bluebonnet Learning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are better ways to spend that money than giving it to schools that adopt this religious stance (ph).

FLORES (voice-over): This move in Texas --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will now say a prayer. And to be clear, students, you don't have to join. I pray in particular for President Donald Trump.

FLORES (voice-over): Coming just days after Oklahoma state superintendent announced the purchase of over 500 Trump approved Bibles for classes across the state.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're not telling kids they have to pray, but we are telling kids they have the right to pray if they so choose.

FLORES (voice-over): Group of Oklahoma parents, teachers and ministers filed a lawsuit against the state's top educator after he ordered the Bible be taught in public schools. The case is ongoing.

In Louisiana, the legal fight over a law requiring the Ten Commandments be displayed in public school classrooms has been temporarily blocked.

FLORES: Why is religion in school such a flashpoint right now?

MARK JONES, POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR, RICE UNIVERSITY: Well, I think, one issue is because for Republicans, it's an issue that mobilizes the debate.

FLORES (voice-over): Mark Jones, a political science professor at Rice University, says President-elect Donald Trump's push for Christianity in schools.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will support bringing back prayer to our schools.

FLORES (voice-over): And his influence could help spread the Bluebonnet curriculum to other states across the country.

JONES: Especially since the Bluebonnet learning curriculum is open source, it's something that other states could adopt relatively quickly and relatively easily. And it's free.

FLORES (voice-over): But like similar efforts in other states, this one, too, is expected to end up in the courts.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

FLORES (on-camera): And at least one advocacy organization says that it has attorneys ready for the legal fight. Here's a statement from the Americans United for Separation of Church and State, quote, "We urge all Texas school districts not to implement this curriculum. If families learn their public schools are using this curriculum, our attorneys are standing by and ready to defend their religious freedom."

If Bluebonnet Learning survives the expected legal fight, it would be available for instruction during the 2025-2026 school year. Rosa Flores, CNN, Houston.

WHITFIELD: All right. Joining me now to talk more about all this is the CEO of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, Rachel Laser. Rachel, great to see you. So, you know, you've said that families, not politicians or public school officials should decide if, when and how their children engage with religion.

So in light of all of this now and what the Texas Board of Education has voted on, what steps is your organization prepared to take if parents indeed choose to challenge this new measure?

RACHEL LASER, CEO, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: Well, for one, as our statement just showed, we are urging all superintendents throughout the state of Texas not to implement this curriculum. It's optional and it's unconstitutional under the Texas Constitution and the United States Constitution, because parents and families, not politicians or government officials, should get to decide if, when and how their children engage with religion.

WHITFIELD: But that it's optional, does that mean it doesn't quite cross the line by forcing people to engage in the teaching of religion in public schools?

LASER: It crosses the line whenever it's implemented, right? And it's also optional with a reward, with a $60 reward per person. So that's why we're saying to all parents out there, this is what Americans United was made for. We are the watchdog group.

Church-state separation is an American original. It was created to protect religious freedom for everyone throughout this country, no matter what your belief system or even if you're non-religious.

So if you're worried about your kids' religious freedom in public school or your neighbor's kids' religious freedom in public school, go to au.org, file a report of violation. And our lawyers are standing by. We are so ready to fight for you because we know this is the protector of religious freedom and one of the legs of the stools -- of the stool of our democracy. That's what's at stake.

WHITFIELD: So there are already states that are trying to implement something similar. Louisiana, in that case, you know, it has been blocked. In Ohio, lawmakers are considering a bill that would require schools to adopt policies that would allow a student to be released from religious instruction.

[12:25:05]

Do you think this is where it is all potentially going, where kids can just opt out? Would that make it more acceptable?

LASER: Look, Christian nationalism is on the march throughout this entire country. And one of the main focal points for attack right now is public education, because there they can indoctrinate instead of educate and they can divert public taxpayer dollars away from our public schools, where by far the majority of our kids go to private religious schools, right.

You pointed it out in your intro to the piece. In Louisiana, they're displaying the Ten Commandments in public schools. In Oklahoma, there's a mandate to teach from the Bible, not about the Bible, but from the Bible. And they're also trying to advance the nation's first religious public school.

In Texas, Louisiana and Florida, there are laws that have already passed that would permit public schools to replace certified school counselors with chaplains. You're talking about what's going on in Ohio. There's efforts to put the Bible into curricula throughout the entire country.

And we've got to every patriot. Let me let me just say this, every patriot, everyone who loves America. This is across the Republican, Democratic, Independent parties, right? This is as American as apple pie.

If you love this country, right now, you should be recommitting to church-state separation because it's foundational. It should make you proud about who America is. And it's part of our American promise of religious freedom.

WHITFIELD: Rachel Laser, so glad you could be with us today, of the American United for Separation of Church and State. Thank you so much.

LASER: Thanks for having me on. Yes, thanks.

WHITFIELD: Thank you.

All right, next, a devastating strike in the heart of Beirut. We'll go live to the region for the latest on the fighting as well as ceasefire efforts. You're in the CNN Newsroom.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:31:21]

WHITFIELD: Lebanese officials say at least 15 people were killed when an Israeli airstrike flattened a building in the heart of Beirut. Video obtained by CNN shows a huge crater where the residential building used to stand. At least 63 others were reportedly injured in the attack. A Lebanese security source is telling CNN that no senior Hezbollah member was in the building at the time. CNN's Nic Robertson is in Jerusalem. Nick, can you tell us more about today's attack?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, this was again in the center of Beirut. We've seen an increasing number of those recently. This was a no warning attack, which is really indicative of the type of attack Israeli, the Israeli Air Force takes on when it tries to target a senior Hezbollah figure. And we understand bunker busting bombs, a number of bombs were dropped, huge craters you said left in the ground, which really gave the impression that there was somebody in that building the IDF wanted to hit.

And that's why we had that clarification later in the day from Lebanese officials saying that there was no senior Hezbollah figure in the building at the time. Fifteen people killed, as you said, 63 injured in the strike. But there have been other strikes in Beirut and the southern suburbs further out of the center today.

At least two rounds of strikes there, also in the Bekaa Valley. Some of those have had warnings for residents to evacuate the buildings. And in the south of the country as well, where Israeli forces are, there's been some pretty intense battles going on for a couple of days now around one town in the southeast of Lebanon, which is strategically important to Hezbollah.

I think all of this puts together tells us that Israel isn't taking the foot off the gas at all in this fight, that it is trying to expand its control in the south and press and go after more senior Hezbollah figures.

WHITFIELD: And then Nic, this comes as there have been some -- some reports, some rumors, that another ceasefire agreement is getting close to being worked out. What do we know about that or any kind of details from it?

ROBERTSON: Yes, details are really scarce, as always with negotiations. And I think that perhaps gives you the sense that the -- the gaps are narrowing, which is what we're hearing from Amos Hochstein's team. State Department officials are indicating that there is reason here to think that the gaps can be closed, nothing happening directly face-to-face that we understand this weekend.

But the broad terms are there, 60-day ceasefire. Israel pulls back its troops out of Lebanon back into Israel. Hezbollah pulls their forces back from the border overlooking Israel. They go back 30 miles north of the Litani River. And into that sort of military vacuum, if you will. The U.N. puts more troops in. It has a presence already. It's really small. And the Lebanese army, which has really been emasculated over the years and is nothing near as strong as Hezbollah, they also would go into that military vacuum to form a buffer zone. But there are clearly details we're not aware of that haven't been fixed yet.

WHITFIELD: All right. Nic Robertson, keep us posted as you learn it. Thank you so much.

[12:34:41]

All right. Still ahead, tourists in the country of Laos are being warned to watch their alcohol after six alcohol intake, that is, after six people died from suspected poisoning. More on this growing mystery when we come right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) WHITFIELD: All right. As he winds down his time in office, President Joe Biden honored some of his top supporters with a dinner on the South Lawn last night. He also touted his administration's accomplishments with his legacy in mind.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Began this journey to redeem the soul of the nation and to find the light in the darkness.

One thing I've always believed about public service, and especially the presidency, is the importance of asking ourselves, have we left the country in better shape than we found it?

Tonight, I can say with all my heart, the answer to that question is a resounding yes, because of you, because of you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[12:40:07]

WHITFIELD: All right. Joining us now, presidential historian Doris Kearns Goodwin. Always an incredible pleasure to have you. Her latest book, "The Leadership Journey: How Four Kids Became President." You see the pictures, Teddy, Abe, Lyndon, all -- and Franklin, all highlighted as the four kids. All right, Doris, so good to see you.

DORIS KEARNS GOODWIN, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Thank you. I'm glad to be with you.

WHITFIELD: So fantastic. So you -- you -- you hear, you know, the President there, you know, talking about how he's leaving the country versus how he came into office. So when you think of Biden's legacy, is it going to be measured by his four years in the White House or his 50 plus years as a civil servant?

GOODWIN: You know, that's a really good idea. And I like the idea of thinking that civil service and devoting oneself to public life will be a measure of a person over a period of time.

It takes a long time for historians to rank people. You know, in a certain sense, Churchill once said, I'm going to write the history of my time, so I'm going to be fine. History will remember me the right way. But nobody can write it for themselves.

But I think when we look back, we're going to see what it was that he did as a person, as a public service, especially at a time when we're not valuing public service in the same way, as well as what he accomplished during his administration. But things take time.

Churchill -- Truman left, you know, in a 25 percent approval rating, and he's now one of the great presidents. LBJ has come up over time. The war in Vietnam will still always be a stain. But what he did domestically has -- and what has stayed forever is part of his legacy. And he's ranking up there among the historians. So we'll take time to do that. But I think that was a gracious way that he spoke to the donors tonight.

WHITFIELD: Oh, that's really interesting. So the perspective of one's legacy changes, whether you're talking about, you know, the immediacy of trying to evaluate it immediately after they leave office versus looking at, say, the Biden years five years from now or maybe five months from now, five years, 10 years from now. You think it will be written differently and viewed differently?

GOODWIN: Yes, and it depends on where -- you're so right. It depends on what is, you know, important at the moment in time. The fact that Truman desegregated the army and really spoke out for civil rights becomes even more important in the 60s and the 70s when civil rights becomes a major issue in our country.

You know, whether a war was fought and then if the war's memories recedes, then to some extent, Lyndon Johnson can be seen for more what he did for civil rights and voting rights and domestic accomplishments. So these presidents come up and down depending on how people write about them. But more importantly, what's important at the time when the writer is writing about it, so their reputations can go up and down.

It's an interesting way that history -- history does. But you get the first guys, George Washington, Franklin Roosevelt, Abraham Lincoln, they have remained extraordinary time after time after time for decades and decades. And I think that will be so for a long period of time.

WHITFIELD: I mean, defeat hurts. You know, President Biden, you know, wanted a --a second term and then decided to hand that off, you know, to the pursuit of his vice president. Do you think he will, for him personally, you know, reflect on his time in the White House as a series of victories, accomplishments? Or is he going to be, I guess, fixated on how his last year, his last year experience might have been in the White House or was in the White House?

GOODWIN: Well, you know, I -- I hope for him that over time he'll be able to look at it as the full measure of his career and those early years. It's true that every president wants a second term. Lincoln said that in 1864. He said the second term matters even more than the first term because it's a judgment on what your first term was like. And you want to finish the job. He just wanted so much to finish the war in -- in 1864.

And it wasn't sure that he was going to win that election. In fact, he was told that unless he compromised on emancipation, there was no way he would win in November. He turned the people out, the Republican bigwigs. He said, there's no way I'm going to compromise. I'd be damned in hell and eternity if I did so. So he made that decision, ambition for the larger goal, trumping in a certain sense the ambition for winning that election.

He was lucky that in September, Atlanta fell and the mood of the North changed and he was able to win the election. But with emancipation secured, those are the kind of qualities that you're looking for in a president. And I think when we look for it over time, it's not just what they did, but who they were.

Did they have humility, empathy, resilience, accountability, ambition for something larger than oneself? That's what is judged over a period of time. So it's the person as well as their accomplishments or their failures.

WHITFIELD: All right. Then perhaps advice for the incoming president, President-elect, you know, Trump has vowed, you know, that he is going to fix it. You know, he campaigned on that, fix whatever and all that is broken after this very contentious election.

[12:45:05]

Are there examples, you know, from history that could help Trump, whatever and all that is broken after this very contentious election? Are there examples, you know, from history that could help Trump either bring Americans together? Because collectively, people agree that we're a very divided country now. He's never exemplified that he's, you know, big on his predecessors or the history or studying the history of his predecessors. But from your point of view, perhaps there is some advice that you can impart. What would be a good reference point for the incoming president?

GOODWIN: Well, you know, I think I can give advice not from me so much, but from my guys. If I bring Lincoln back, I think what he would tell to President-elect Trump is that don't go into punishing enemies. When -- when -- what -- what happened for Lincoln as the war was coming to a close, the North was on the eve of triumph and -- and people wanted radicals around him, wanted him to prosecute and punish and hang the Confederate generals and Confederate soldiers. And he said, we've had enough hate. We've had enough sadness. We just want to move forward.

And then in that great second inaugural with malice toward none and charity for all, let us bind up the nation's wounds. So that would be Lincoln's advice. He would say, remember, once you said, Mr. Trump, you said success is the best revenge. You've had success. Let it go. And I think what LBJ would tell him is that every decision you make during this transition period uses up capital.

After he had won in 1964 by 15 million votes, I mean, so much more than was won in this election. He knew that it would dwindle with every decision he made. He'd have a fight with Congress, a fight with the press. He would make a decision and it would dwindle. So he told his staff, get off. He said, get your asses off the ground and get my program through and make sure you have the right priorities in mind.

So every choice you make of cabinet, every decision you make as to whether to go after your enemies or not, the tone you set. When Jefferson came in as president, there had been a huge vitriolic fight with Adams during the presidential election, almost a civil war they feared was going to come. And what he did is he said, we are all federalists. We are all Republicans. We need civility and magnanimity right now. And he reached out for common ground.

And that tone can be set in language. So all these things that are happening now will determine really the success of the presidency. The transition point is really, really important. Not only the cabinet choices, the White House staff, but the tone you set and the actions you make during this period of time. They should be really thought through very carefully. That's what my guys would tell them.

WHITFIELD: I like that. I mean, so many lessons there. That's what your guys would tell them. And we just heard from them through you, historian, presidential historian Doris Kearns Goodwin. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

GOODWIN: Thank you so much for having me.

WHITFIELD: Wonderful. What a pleasure. Thank you.

[12:47:47]

All right. The defense has rested in the trial of Daniel Penny, the former Marine charged in the chokehold death of a man on the New York City subway last year, that many recalled and remembered as like a Michael Jackson. All right. New details on the expert testimony that's challenging the cause of the subway rider's death.

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WHITFIELD: The defense has rested in the New York subway chokehold death trial. Daniel Penny is the Marine veteran accused of manslaughter after allegedly causing the death of a homeless man last year.

The jury will return after Thanksgiving to hear closing arguments. CNN's Gloria Pazmino is in New York with the latest. Gloria, what did the -- the defense focus on in these closing days of the case?

GLORIA PAZMINO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Fred, we heard from the defense for about a week and a half where they mostly focused on the character of Daniel Penny putting up witnesses who could testify to the fact that he is a good person, an honest person and also medical experts. And that was the most important part of the defense. They put on a forensic pathologist who was essentially there to counter the testimony of the city's medical examiner, which was a key witness for the prosecution.

She was the one who said that she had no doubt that Jordan Neely had died as a result of put -- being put -- put in a chokehold by Daniel Penny. So when the defense was up to present their case, they put on their own medical expert to essentially counter those findings. And they spent a lot of time talking about all the other conditions that Jordan Neely suffered from that actually contributed to his death, according to them, including the fact that he suffered from sickle cell disease and that he was high on K2 at the time of the incident and that he had serious mental health issues, all of which -- which was previously known.

So now it's going to be up to the jury. And what's going to happen next week is that the lawyers will meet to talk about how they're going to charge the -- the jury. That will happen when we return from Thanksgiving. And then we'll see just how soon, whether or not we get a verdict.

WHITFIELD: All right. Gloria Pazmino, thank you so much.

All right. Over the next few weeks, we'll be introducing you to our top five CNN heroes. This week's hero has always had a passion for math and engineering. And when she went to study engineering at MIT, she was one of only two black women in her class. And now she's fighting to help make the industry more diverse by bring STEM and dance together for young girls.

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[12:55:16]

YAMILEE TOUSSAINT: We bring STEM and dance together by allowing the girls to create dance performances that combine the two so they can work on costumes that light up as they move. And they're learning how to program the circuit so that when they press a button on the circuit, the lights turn blue or whatever effect that they want to be able to convey a message.

OK. So what songs you have here today?

They can create their own song through computer science and A.I.

So these are the poses in the beginning?

And then be able to make a dance routine to that song that they created.

Love it. This is going to be so fun.

We're normalizing that girls of color can do computer science and create something together.

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