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Inside Trump's Decision To Install Kash Patel As New FBI Director; Syrian Rebels Push into Aleppo's East and Northern Countryside; How Narrow GOP Control of House Could Affect Trump's Agenda; President Biden Pardons His Son Hunter. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired December 01, 2024 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:40]
JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jessica Dean in New York.
And we begin this hour with breaking news as we learn new details into the thinking behind how President-elect Trump came to choose MAGA firebrand Kash Patel as his pick to lead the FBI.
Let's go straight to CNN's Alayna Treene who is live in West Palm Beach, Florida.
Alayna, walk us through what you're learning.
ALAYNA TREENE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. Well, Jessica, we've learned that essentially in the final days, it really came down to two people. Donald Trump knew that he wanted to get rid of FBI director Christopher Wray once he takes office but it was a question of who he wanted to install at the helm of the bureau. And he was really wavering between, I'm told, two people in particular, Kash Patel who we know of course he eventually named, but also the Missouri attorney general, Andrew Bailey.
And I know as well that Bailey is someone Donald Trump had thought of for other roles in the past as well. He was on his list to potentially be attorney general, but essentially, I'm told that Donald Trump, he interviewed both Bailey and Patel earlier this month in person at Mar- a-Lago and Donald Trump was unimpressed with him, I'm told. He felt like Bailey did not have the personality traits or fit the mold that he wanted for the FBI, which was really someone who will be like- minded, who will carry out his agenda,, but will also disrupt the agency and try to root out the bias that Donald Trump has long argued has been permeating the FBI.
I'm going to read for you what one Trump adviser told me who's been involved in some of these conversations. They said, quote, "It came down to a matter of what Trump wants and what he was looking for in terms of an FBI director, and Bailey didn't fit that mold. He didn't have the personality."
Now, I will say these conversations have been going on for a long time now about what Donald Trump wanted to do with the FBI. Again, it was clear that he wanted to make big changes, but it was not clear who he wanted to be the one kind of running the show there. Now, I'm told that some people close to the president-elect had some skepticism about Kash Patel, particularly given some of the controversial comments he has made in the past, and fears that he would not have an easy Senate confirmation battle, fears that are particular I would argue became even bigger after what happened with his first attorney general pick, Matt Gaetz.
Now, however, there are people, though, that are very close to Donald Trump who have his ear. The people that my sources argue are the closest to him and who Donald Trump talks, or I should say trusts the most. And that includes his sons, Eric Trump and Donald Trump Jr., but also Stephen Miller, his incoming deputy chief of staff for policy. I'm told that they were pushing Patel on Donald Trump arguing that really they believe that he was the only person that could reform the FBI and change the FBI in the eyes of Donald Trump, and really be in lockstep with him in the ways that they know that Donald Trump wants to do.
And so, a lot of behind the scenes discussion about this. I know this was a decision that Donald Trump, I'm told, was wavering for a bit and really wanted to make sure he found the right fit. And he believes that that is Kash Patel -- Jess.
DEAN: All right. Alayna Treene in West Palm Beach with the latest reporting. Thank you very much.
When the news first broke last night on Kash Patel, I spoke with former deputy FBI director Andrew McCabe, and here's his immediate reaction to that news.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREW MCCABE, FORMER DEPUTY FBI DIRECTOR: The installation or the nomination, I guess we should say at this point, of Kash Patel as FBI director can only possibly be a plan to disrupt, to dismantle, to distract the FBI, and to possibly use it as a tool for the president's political agenda.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DEAN: Let's bring in CNN's senior justice correspondent, Evan Perez.
Evan, what are you hearing from people you're talking to?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jessica, look, I think what you hear often inside the FBI is this idea that what you hear certainly the perception that is out there that there is a political -- this is a politically biased organization is not what they certainly see. And look, I deal with the bureau a lot and, you know, it's a pretty conservative organization. There's -- I would probably guess that most people at the FBI most likely voted for Donald Trump. They tend to be on the conservative side politically.
And so what the quarrel that conservatives have and that Trump has about the FBI or really about the investigations over the last few years. [19:05:05]
They see that as bias and they see it as directed from the White House, which is not really what certainly the evidence that we've seen shows. And so the danger that could emanate from this is that, you know, if you start using the FBI essentially to just carry out political vendettas, then when the next party takes office, that's exactly what could happen. And so we have to, you know, I think one of the things that will be a challenge for the nomination, for Kash Patel, will be to test some of the things that he has said publicly, some of the things that you have reported on previously as to whether he sticks by those sentiments about the use of the FBI to go after Trump's enemies.
DEAN: Yes. And we just heard from our colleague Alayna Treene there. She's got that new reporting on who is influencing President-elect Trump on this key decision. What do you make of that and who he's listening to?
PEREZ: Well, you know what's fascinating is that Patel has his own agency, his own influence with Trump. He is seen as someone who has a lot of influence with the president-elect. And so Patel has been pushing his own name and having other people, and as you could -- you heard from Alayna there just now, his sons, certainly there are other people around the president-elect who had certain views.
What would be interesting to know is where J.D. Vance and some of the others in the Trump circle, where they stood on this. It's clear, by the way, that a month after the election, Donald Trump, you know, weighed this decision. It was one of the more important ones that he's been thinking about and he waited certainly a long time before he pulled the trigger on this, which tells us that he himself probably had some second thoughts before going with it.
DEAN: Yes. All right. Evan Perez, as always, thank you for your reporting. We appreciate it.
PEREZ: Thank you.
DEAN: And joining me now, CNN political commentator and former Republican congressman Adam Kinzinger.
Congressman, good to have you here. I just first want to --
ADAM KINZINGER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good to be with you.
DEAN: Yes, I just first want to get your reaction to Trump nominating Kash Patel to lead the FBI.
KINZINGER: Well, look, I mean, there's a certainly an infinite amount of picks right now that are bad that this administration has put in and Kash Patel is among the very worst of it. I mean, look, Donald Trump is, he does one thing really well. He projects. So when he accuses somebody, for instance, of politicizing the FBI, what that actually means is he intends to politicize it. And that's exactly what's going to happen with Kash Patel. I mean, there's really nobody out there besides kind of the most
hardcore that think this is a move to, you know, truly clean up or bring ethics to the FBI. This is clearly an attempt to weaponize the FBI for Donald Trump.
Look, he actually was pretty clear about what he was going to do during the campaign. So I'm not surprised by it, but this is actually a pretty bad deal.
DEAN: We've heard from a number of Republicans who say that the FBI does need to be, I'm kind of borrowing your words, but cleaned up or cleaned out or it needs to be -- there's, you know, corruption there. Do you think that's true?
KINZINGER: No. I mean, look, any organization there's going to be things that are wrong with it. You know, probably you could dig deep enough and find corruption somewhere. But my guess is anybody who's corrupt in the FBI that's found out is actually then prosecuted by the FBI. What actually these people are saying in code is they don't like the fact that the FBI was tasked with investigating Donald Trump, and they found that he had broken the law sufficient enough that the special counsel indicted Donald Trump on stealing classified documents, on his role on January 6th.
That's what they don't like. They don't like the fact that their corruption is found out and so they're claiming -- I can't understand when you say the FBI is just deeply corrupt. Where they're getting that from except the fact that they don't want to be targets.
DEAN: And you mentioned January 6th. You, of course, were a member of the January 6th Committee. It interviewed Kash Patel during the course of its work.
Do you remember anything about that meeting? Can you talk about it at all? What were kind of your thoughts about that?
KINZINGER: Well, look, a lot of that blends together now. I mean, so, I don't know exactly what came out of that. I can't, you know, get it off the top of my head. But, yes, I mean, look, he was clearly hostile. Clearly did not want to be sitting in front of the January 6th Committee and clearly took a side. And that's the point.
Look, if you're going to be the head of the FBI and you're talking about things like, let's get to the bottom of January 6th, for instance, you actually think that this would be a normal FBI director would say, let's just get the answers. Let's figure out what happened and follow the crime if there is one. But when you already have your decision set because of your political preference, boy, that just bodes really poorly.
[19:10:04]
And, look, again, Donald Trump was not quiet about what he intended to do. I just think America is getting ready in some cases to touch the stove and understand how bad a really politicized FBI actually is. And eventually we'll have to correct that. But this is Donald Trump's choice.
DEAN: Well, and you make a point. And Mike Lawler made the similar point earlier today, which is that he campaigned on this. He said he's doing what he said he was going to do, and he won on that message and others. But -- so it's not a surprise, right?
KINZINGER: No, it's not. I mean, look, and he's even talked about pardoning all the January 6th defendants. He said that at almost every rally. He had the January 6th defendants in jail sing the national anthem, which is about the most offensive thing you can have. And America still voted for him so he didn't hide that. America made the decision that this is what they want at least what didn't rise to a level that it would stop him because of other things they were interested in.
And, look, for eight years saying Republicans and Democrats have stopped Donald Trump's worst impulses. That's not going to happen this time. And we're going to hold him accountable to that. He wants 25 percent tariffs on everything or 100 percent tariffs on everything, go for it. Let's see how that actually works for things like inflation, and he just needs to be held accountable to his words at this point.
DEAN: And so to that end, how do you see this playing out on the hill? Obviously the Senate will have the responsibility to confirm the nominees. He'll need the House to buy into his agenda to pass legislation. How do you see that playing out?
KINZINGER: It's going to be difficult. The House is so close. All it takes is going to be one or two Republican members of Congress who have a heartburn or something. There are still people left that, you know, do have a conscience and have a position on things that it's going to make governing tough.
In terms of this with the Senate, the thing I worry about is that there are so many bad picks that it is going to be hard for the same Republicans in the Senate to continually vote against his picks. So they'll pick one, maybe two, but then the rest they won't have the courage to say no to this, too. I don't think that Kash Patel is a guarantee, but I think the more that there are bad picks out there, the more likely it is that some of them get through simply because resisting all of Donald Trump's picks, especially in an election year for some of these people, is pretty difficult to do.
DEAN: Right. There will potentially be real political consequences if they're running in two years and potentially get primaried or something like that.
All right, Adam Kinzinger, as always, thank you for your time. We appreciate it.
KINZINGER: You bet.
DEAN: Still ahead, Syrian government forces backed by Russia carry out more airstrikes against the against the country's rebel coalition. They already control most of Syria's second largest city. What's next in the battle? Plus, we're going to run the numbers. How likely is Kash Patel or any
Trump legislative priorities to pass Congress? We're going to look at Republicans' razor thin House majority and also what's happening in the Senate side.
And Arctic temps blanket half the U.S. and snow slams the Great Lakes region. We're tracking the winter weather.
You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:17:51]
DEAN: Syrian rebels tonight claimed to have expanded their control of Aleppo, gaining ground in the city's east and northern countryside. The offensive is seen as a major challenge to President Bashar al- Assad, but now his allies are stepping up. Russia assisting in the airstrikes against the rebel forces. This strike today on Idlib City reportedly killing several people.
CNN's Nic Robertson is joining us now.
And Nic, this rebel offensive appeared to take the Syrian regime by surprise.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, and it appears also to have been well-planned because it involved two pretty big rebel groups, the Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which is a sort of formerly al Qaeda affiliated radical Islamist group, as not as radical as ISIS, not as radical as al Qaeda, but still proscribed by the United States as a terrorist organization.
The other big rebel group was the Free Syrian Army, which is backed by the Turks, and the fact that they could get together, plan this, execute it, without Bashar al-Assad's forces appearing to be ready, and in fact, it appears in some cases just retreating without putting up a fight. But Assad met with the Iranian foreign minister today. The Iranian foreign minister said he was in the country showing support for Iran's neighbor.
They are a huge backer of Bashar al-Assad, have been for many, many years, and Assad himself saying that he was going to take the fight to the terrorists and turf them out. But it does appear as if these groups want to push further south. There's big cities between them and the capital Damascus. Hama would be a big one, significant. Homs would be big and significant and it does appear as if the rebels may be on their way there.
But at the moment the sort of counter-move is really airstrikes by the Russian air force and Assad's own air force as well. Not having a huge impact to push the rebels back but certainly can cause a lot of death and mayhem in Aleppo and around the north.
DEAN: Yes, and what more do we know, Nic, about the rebel coalition? ROBERTSON: Yes. This is, you know, it's a complex one. There are lots
of rebel groups inside of Syria, and they've been fighting in the civil war there for almost 14 years now.
[19:20:02]
This alliance, as I was saying, is the two biggest. But I think for the United States, it represents, you know, possible problems but possible gains. U.S. forces are inside Syria, further east, they're fighting ISIS. That's their job. But obviously there is a concern, and National Security adviser Jake Sullivan told Kasie Hunt earlier today about this concern.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAKE SULLIVAN, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: We were not surprised that these rebels would try to take advantage of a new situation in which the Syrian government's main backers Iran, Russia and Hezbollah, were all distracted and weakened by conflicts and events elsewhere.
Now the speed of this offensive, I think, very much surprised the Syrian government and other observers in the region.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTSON: So the surprise there, so we can expect now that Assad will begin to find his feet. But, you know, the question is now in situations like this where the rebels have been planning for a long time have they in this period been talking to elements within Assad's military, trying to get them to defect, and if they do take more ground closer towards the capital, that's going to be very destabilizing for Assad.
Turkey wants to pressure Assad to get into real political negotiations to end the war, to stabilize the region. And he, Assad, may also look to his partners in Russia like a lame-duck even to the Iranians. He could appear to begin to be weak. His father came to power in '71. What's that now over 50 years, this father-son dynasty has been in power? I think many Syrians are expecting it could come to an end soon.
DEAN: Yes. It's fascinating. All right. Nic Robertson, thank you for laying that all out for us. We really appreciate it.
Still ahead, holiday travelers are up against the worst of the winter weather this weekend. Part of the Great Lakes seeing feet of snow as biting cold sweeps across much of the country. We're going to track it for you ahead.
You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:26:29]
DEAN: Treacherous lake-effect snow hitting parts of the Great Lakes region and impacting post-Thanksgiving travel with more than 5,000 flights delayed across the country today. The Weather Prediction Center reporting nearly four feet of snow fell on parts of western New York in the last few days. There was even a thunder snowstorm in Copenhagen, New York. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thundersnow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DEAN: Meteorologist Elisa Raffa is tracking the latest conditions from the CNN Weather Center.
And Elisa, is the cold and snow going to stick around for a while?
ELISA RAFFA, AMS METEOROLOGIST: The snow continues for the next day or so, but the cold lingers through. The week will find temperatures below average down to the Gulf Coast. The thunder snow, though, is so incredibly rare when you get that, it's just a sign of how dynamic and powerful these lake-effect snow bands are, how much moisture it's pumping into it, and how fast that air is rapidly rising.
We are finding some lightning bolts coming out of this band off of Lake Huron right now, across parts of Canada, and we've got some heavy snow along I-90. We've had pretty much all weekend from Cleveland up through Erie, south of Buffalo, where we still have some snow in the Orchard Park area where that Bills game is about to kick off soon. We have another band off of Lake Ontario, I-81 near Watertown also a problem.
So a lot of these roads are pretty treacherous because these snow bands are wind driven, so that drops the visibility makes it really hard to see. You're looking at whiteout conditions and there's already three feet of snow on the ground, almost four feet in some locations. You can see that stripe right through Erie to the southern suburbs of Buffalo, and then Watertown as well. We actually do have at least one total so far. That's over four feet. Saybrook, Ohio, 49 inches of snow. Just incredible to see the amount of snow that has fallen.
The winter alerts continue across the Great Lakes. That teal color that you see is the lake-effect snow warnings off of Lakes Erie and Ontario. That goes through Monday night. Even Tuesday morning in some locations. Because, look, we can still see some of those deep purples. It's still another 12 to 18 inches of snow. Additional on top of what we've got. Again, it's because we have this cold air coming over the warmer lake.
That cold air picks up the moisture. Now you have cold, moist air heating into the land. It's forced to rise and that's where you get the rapid snow that just keeps falling. Temperatures just cold, too. It's 15 degrees right now in Minneapolis -- Jessica.
DEAN: Whoo. Very cold. All right. Elisa Raffa, thank you so much.
President-elect Trump's decision last night to nominate fierce loyalist Kash Patel to lead the FBI has set the scene for a fiery confirmation battle on Capitol Hill. Some Republican lawmakers are already saying they'd back his nomination, but others striking a more cautious tone.
So what are his chances of getting confirmed by the Senate?
CNN senior data reporter Harry Enten is here to break it down.
Let's start first -- hi, Harry -- with how the betting markets feel about Patel's chances of getting confirmed.
HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA CORRESPONDENT: Shalom. Good evening to you. Let's take a look first at those betting markets as you mentioned it, right? All right. So what's the chance that Kash Patel is confirmed to lead the FBI? Look, it's close. It's close but it's a majority yes. It's 60 percent compared to 40 percent for no. And of course, we should point out, you know, the betting markets had that Matt Gaetz was not going to make it. In fact before he stepped out, it was majority no.
So this is a little bit of a different market, right? Patel is the favorite to get confirmed at this point. But look, 60 percent yes, 40 percent no. It's not quite a tossup. It's leaning confirmation, but certainly not anything that I would go to the bank on and bet as the pure absolute favorite. It's a small favorite, but a favorite nonetheless, Jessica.
[19:30:14]
DEAN: And would it be unusual for a president's pick for FBI chief to not make it through the confirmation process?
ENTEN: It would be extremely, extremely unusual. So, you go back over time, right, there have been seven confirmations to lead the FBI since 1973. Now, this number six is the number senators in total in total across all seven of those confirmations that have ever voted no. So six senators in total.
I mean, if Patel only had six senators against him this time around he and Donald Trump would absolutely love it it's almost certainly going to be higher if it does, in fact get to a vote. But the bottom line is normally the pick to lead the FBI flies through the Senate. In fact there are sometimes they didn't hold votes. It was just a voice vote.
So, look, it would be extremely, extremely unusual if Patel, in fact did not get confirmed. If you look along historical lines the odds are in his favor, but of course, Patel is such an unusual pick that perhaps history isn't the best guide in this case, but history as a guide suggests he would fly through.
DEAN: Okay, and we're also counting up the final House votes. Now, that is going to be an incredibly potentially historically tight balance of power.
ENTEN: Oh, you ain't kidding, I mean, you talk about history in the making. Let's take a look here, right, let's take a look at the current House results hold. My goodness gracious holy cannoli. GOP would have a record small House majority, in fact, would be the smallest in over 90 years. You'd have to go back since the Herbert Hoover administration to find, after the November elections, go all the way back since 1930 to find a smaller one than this.
Look at this, Republicans at 220, Democrats at 215. And of course, here is the key nugget. This would drop lower given that, of course, Trump has appointed nominated folks to be either part of his administration or in his Cabinet.
So, what might this math look like if we take that into account? Look at this, it gets even smaller, 217 for Republicans, 215 for Democrats. If Gaetz, Stefanik, and Waltz resign, it would only take one Republican to throw it to the Democrats. If all democrats vote along the same lines -- Jessica.
DEAN: All right Harry Enten for us breaking down the numbers, as always, thank you so much.
ENTEN: Thank you.
DEAN: And I have some breaking news I want to tell you about right now. CNN has learned President Biden will pardon his son, Hunter Biden. CNN chief national affairs correspondent Jeff Zeleny, I believe, is with us. Jeff, can you hear me?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (via phone): Jessica, yes.
DEAN: Okay. What are you learning?
ZELENY: Look, we are just getting a statement from President Joe Biden. He is saying that today he signed a pardon for my son Hunter. And he goes through the reasoning why, of course, Hunter is facing a sentencing later this month. But this is a really a monumental moment for President Biden. He said several months ago in June, when he was still seeking reelection, that he would not pardon Hunter Biden. But now we are learning he is.
And let's just read through the statement quickly together, he said. "Today, I signed a pardon for my son, Hunter. From the day I took office. I said I would not interfere with the Justice Department's decision making, and I kept my word even as I watched my son being selectively and unfairly prosecuted."
So, this is a fairly long statement about four or five paragraphs from President Biden. But really going through why he is making this decision. He also goes on to say this. He said, "No reasonable person who looks at the facts of Hunter's cases can reach any other conclusion than Hunter was singled out because he is my son and that is wrong." He goes on to say, 'There has been an effort to break Hunter, who has been five-and-a-half years sober even in the face of unrelenting attacks and selective prosecution."
So, of course, Jessica, let's take a step back. You obviously covered the Biden campaign along with me, and this is something that Hunter Biden has been dealing with. This is a tax case, a gun case. He went through his trial in Delaware. There was another case in Los Angeles. But this is really the culmination of President Biden really making the decision tonight to sign a pardon for his son, Hunter, not just a commutation of a possible sentence, but a pardon which certainly will be part of President Biden's legacy going forward.
DEAN: Yes, there's no doubt about it. And as I'm reading this along with you, Jeff, I think one part at the very end is particularly striking, which is where he says, "I have followed a simple principle just tell the American people the truth. They'll be fair minded. And here's the truth. I believe in the justice system, but as I have wrestled with this, I also believe raw politics has infected this process and it led to a miscarriage of justice and once I made this decision this weekend, there was no sense in delaying it further, I hope Americans will understand why a father and a president would come to this decision."
It is interesting to also hear him saying, essentially, that the justice system was politicized, which is something we've heard from Republicans and Donald Trump as well.
[19:35:15]
ZELENY: We certainly have, and important to note that President Biden spent really the weekend with his son, Hunter and the rest of the family in Nantucket, where they always do for Thanksgiving and this is a striking really ending to this Thanksgiving holiday. And with this statement from the White House, we're seeing tonight it is an official document calling for a full and unconditional pardon for all crimes and punishments facing Robert Hunter Biden.
But Jessica, the sentence that you read is so poignant. "I hope Americans will understand why a father and a president would come to this decision."
We will see, of course, in the coming weeks and months and years, if Americans do understand that, but there is no doubt that this is part of the legacy of President Biden's one term in office. Certainly something he did not want. He hoped to run for reelection. He obviously stepped away from that months ago, but clearly there was pressure inside the family.
We were told really in recent weeks that Dr. Jill Biden, First Lady Jill Biden was very supportive of the president doing something like this. The president was not sure, but we clearly have seen now he has come to this decision to pardon his son, Hunter.
DEAN: And, Jeff, of course, we don't have to remind people how close knit this family is. And that hunter is his only surviving son that they are, of course, of course, very, very close. And we've heard many stories about the last several years, how they talk daily and many times a day.
Stick with us, Jeff. I want to go to our senior justice correspondent, Evan Perez who is back with us. Evan, what are you hearing from sources as were getting this news tonight that President Biden has granted this pardon to his son, Hunter Biden?
PEREZ: Well, certainly, Jessica, this is something that a lot of us were anticipating. We are waiting for it. Even despite the fact that the president has said repeatedly that he was not planning to give his son a pardon, would not commute his sentences. Keep in mind that he was due to be sentenced in the Los Angeles case, dealing with his tax problems that that was coming in the next couple of weeks.
And so, all of this is coming to a head. And so we've been watching and seeing what the president of the United States would do. I think as you and Jeff were just talking about, I think you know, we'll see what the American public arrives at but I think it's really remarkable to sort of step back and just read some of what President Biden is saying in here.
Keep in mind, he took office in 2021, promising to sort of restore the institutions and try to restore faith in those institutions, including the system of justice obviously, the justice department, those are among the big priorities with him. That's why he chose Merrick Garland, a former judge, to be Attorney General.
And then, if you look now where we are what the president of the United States is saying is that essentially there are problems, there are political problems with the prosecutions that are being brought by his own Justice Department and, you know, I think that's going to be a very, very tough pill for people to swallow on this issue because obviously it is a thing that we keep hearing from Donald Trump.
And it's the thing that animates the Trump team over the next four years. You're already hearing from them that they want to destroy some of those institutions that they believe are stacked against them. And so, to see President Biden sort of go to the same territory is kind of a remarkable turn to watch.
DEAN: And then, Evan, just legally help people understand and just remind them, this full pardon that, what is that effectively mean again, that, that covers -- as I understand it all of the charges against him.
PEREZ: Right, as I understand it and as I read this, it goes to all of the crimes and that he has now been convicted of. He was convicted of gun charges, gun related charges in Delaware over the summer. I was there for that trial, and I also was in Los Angeles for the tax trial. And, you know, those things were both -- well, just before it was going to trial. Obviously, the he ended up having to plead but this would take care of all of those.
Republicans have said, by the way, Jessica that they want to take another look at Hunter Biden when Donald Trump takes office in January. So, we'll see whether they can come up with something new that they can pursue Joe and Hunter Biden over. But for now, what this means is those charges that the special counsel, David Weiss, has pursued against Hunter Biden, which are gun charges in Delaware, as well as his tax charges in Los Angeles, both of those get wiped away clean.
[19:40:15]
DEAN: All right, Evan Perez, stay with us. I want to go now to Isaac Dover, who is somebody who has covered Joe Biden, who has interviewed him and Isaac, I just -- I first want to play a clip that we have of what Biden said about potentially pardoning his son earlier this year, and then well come back to you. So, let's play that clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID MUIR, ABC NEWS: Let me ask you, will you accept the Jury's outcome, their verdict, no matter what it is?
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes.
MUIR: And have you ruled out a pardon for your son?
BIDEN: Yes.
MUIR: You have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)'
DEAN: And so, obviously, I think that's when he was running for reelection and the political environment was very different for him. You, as someone who has covered him for years. Walk us through kind of his thought process, how he thinks about these things. We know per our reporting, that this was happening over -- a lot of it over the weekend. But tell us more about kind of how you think he arrived at this decision.
EDWARD-ISAAC DOVERE, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Yes, this is something that has been a great pain to Joe Biden for many years and was weighing on him as he decided whether to run for reelection and then was deciding whether to stay in the race earlier in the year.
He believes that Hunter Biden was being prosecuted for these crimes because he put the spotlight on the Biden family by running for president. He put the spotlight on his son. He believes that there are things that Hunter has dealt with and in some ways, some of the issues that he's had over the years that Biden wasn't there in the same way that he might have been as a father, that some of the pressures that came on him from being in the limelight because of who his father was.
And so, Joe Biden has struggled with this but look, there's really no disputing the change in position here from the clip you played to the decision that's been made tonight.
That said, one of the things that is definitely on the minds of people around the Biden family in these weeks now is Donald Trump prepares to take over as president again is that there may be more selective prosecutions and there was a feeling among a number of Biden allies that Hunter Biden would be an easy target for a Trump Justice Department looking to make a point.
So, that is to protect his son, the decision that's been made here. Of course, as Evan was noting, this is the Joe Biden who's tried to say that there is a standard of justice here that he has been loyal to and he has believed in and that Donald Trump is after other things.
It will make it probably politically more difficult for there to be an argument against whatever pardons Donald Trump may make as president for his own political allies and his own family members, if it comes to that, or obviously, for himself, if he decides to pardon himself, given that Joe Biden has made this decision.
DEAN: Yes, all right, Isaac, stay with us. Jeff Zeleny, are you still with us?
ZELENY: I am Jessica, yes.
DEAN: I know you have some new reporting you just got. Can you talk us through that?
ZELENY: Look, we're learning that President Biden reached a final decision on this weekend. The family, as we know, was spending the Thanksgiving holiday in Nantucket as they always have, really, for years and decades. And this is something that, of course, Hunter Biden was facing. You know, the potential of these court cases and the sentencing December 12th, only 11 days from now, a sentencing for conviction on federal gun charges, as well as a separate case on December 16th.
So we are told that this sort of came to a head this weekend. And this is why President Biden decided now to do this.
But as Isaac was just saying, that really is a sense of the conversation that has been going on really inside the family. And I'm told this has been very much a family discussion and something that has been not a widely shared or discussed as a policy matter inside the West Wing. But there was a worry of future prosecutions or future potential -- the potential of what the incoming Trump Justice Department could do.
So that, of course, is freighted in all of this as well. But for now, this moment, this certainly is a decision that President Biden, I'm guessing, did not come too easily. But as you play that statement before, so much has changed since June, when he told David Muir of ABC News that he would not do that.
Of course, his station in life has changed. He will not be a second term president, he not complete his campaign so that is why sort of leading up to this. That's why I'm told a decision was reached finally this weekend after spending time together in Nantucket.
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DEAN: Yes, and he said he didn't want to delay it further. Jeff, stand by, thank you so much. I want to go to Evan Perez. Evan, I understand that Hunter Biden has released a statement.
PEREZ: Yes. Look, Jessica, this is a very personal statement from Hunter Biden. And it's part of what we've seen over the last year, certainly during the trials in Delaware, where a lot of the ugliest days of his life you know, his struggle with drug addiction, all of those were laid to bare in front of a jury during that trial and we've seen a lot of that in this statement now that he has just issued.
I'll read just what he's saying here. He says, "I've admitted and taken responsibility for my mistakes during the darkest days of my addiction, mistakes that have been exploited to publicly humiliate and shame me and my family for political support. Despite all of this, I have maintained my sobriety for more than five years because of my deep faith and the unwavering love and support of my family and friends."
He goes on to say that you know, while he has squandered many opportunities, he says, "I will never take the clemency that I've been given today for granted and will devote the life that I have rebuilt to helping those who are still sick and still suffering." And that's again what Hunter Biden has to say now that his father has given him this pardon, that finally resolves these legal problems that have been hanging over him now for more than five years.
Jessica, I will point out that this was a theme that Hunter Biden returned to a lot during that trial. I mean, one of the aspects of this was, you know, sitting there watching him look at videos and look at some of the pictures of paraphernalia, some of the stories that were being told by witnesses.
His mother sitting there, his family members sitting there right behind him. You know watching all of this get displayed in public view. That had to be one of the most difficult things that anyone has ever done and one of the big concerns inside the Biden family, as I understand it, from talking to people, is that there was a lot of concern that because of going through this, that Hunter Biden might relapse, that he might go back to using drug, that has not happened, Hunter has said. And so, here we are.
And so, it appears that with this resolution, he can try to move on and rebuild his life, that is, of course if the next administration allows that, because they very much could continue to make this a theme of the political theater in Washington.
DEAN: All right, Evan, thank you so much. Stay with us.
Again, if you're just joining us, were covering breaking news that President Biden has issued a pardon for his son, Hunter Biden that happened just moments ago this evening.
He released a pretty lengthy statement, but he said that he believes that raw politics infected the process, that would be the investigation and the prosecution against Hunter Biden and it led to what President Biden called a miscarriage of justice. He said once he made this decision, this weekend, there was no sense in delaying it further. He goes on to say that he hopes Americans will understand why a father and a president would come to this decision.
I want to go now to our senior legal analyst, Elie Honig, who is standing by. Elie, help us zoom out for a minute and understand both the legal implications of this.
There's the political parts of it and the legal parts of it and we've heard a little bit about both. Help us understand the legal ramifications of this, and especially this idea that we've been hearing from all of our correspondents. This fear, about potential, that a Trump administration might come after Hunter further, that that might have driven some of this as well.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Jess, first of all, a bit of legal history here. This is actually not the first time a president has issued a pardon to a family member.
Bill Clinton pardoned his half-brother, Roger Clinton, on his last day in office in 2001, and Donald Trump pardoned Charles Kushner, who is the father of his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, so we have seen presidential uses of the pardon to familial members before.
Now, in terms of what this does for Hunter Biden's, both of his cases is it puts them to an end. Both of those sentences were coming up and I will say Hunter Biden was very likely to get sentenced to prison on one or both of those cases. So this pardon in a very real way, spares Hunter Biden from having to go to prison.
He was coming up on sentencing in his gun case in Delaware, where he was convicted for being an addict in possession of a firearm.
I will tell you, based on my experience, it is very rare to see that crime charged essentially in and of itself. There's also a false statements crime that goes with it. But the way that Hunter Biden was charged in that Delaware case is extremely unusual.
Separately, Hunter Biden pled guilty to tax offenses to tax felonies in California, those can be handled sometimes through civil process, sometimes they are charged as felonies, as Hunter Biden was.
But both of those cases are now over and Jessica, I think this will really be a Rorschach test. I think a lot of people will look at this the way that the president looks at it, and he articulated in his statement that this was a politically driven prosecution that carried on for at least six or seven years, which is outrageous, given the nature of these charges.
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But there will be others who will listen to the IRS whistleblowers who testified last year in Congress that certain avenues were cut off. And in their view, Hunter Biden was given more lenient treatment because of his relationship to Joe Biden. So that's a debate that will rage on. But in terms of the legal inputs here, the legal outcome here, these cases are over. There's nothing anybody can do to stop a pardon or to challenge it.
DEAN: And Elie, just based on how you're describing this, I'm curious, you know, I was reading from the statement before we came to you that that Joe Biden really -- that the president really does believe that this happened to Hunter, that it was prosecuted in this way because of who his father was, because of the Biden family, because of the power that his father had as president. Do you believe that based on what you know about these cases?
HONIG: I do think there's some truth to that. I've written and said publicly on CNN that the gun charge that was brought against Hunter Biden is something that I never would have charged. I've never seen anything quite like it. Charged somebody who possessed a firearm for 11 days, never used it never brandished it, never fired it. It was disposed of, to go back in time and charge that, to me is unheard of.
The tax charges are a little harder to sort of figure out because sometimes tax charges are just handled through civil processes. Someone pays it back. Maybe there's a lawsuit. But other times tax cases are handled through criminal charges and that can vary based on the specifics.
I do think it's important to remember here, Jessica, though, there was a moment last summer where David Weiss, the special counsel, and his DOJ team walked into court with Hunter Biden's team and they had an agreement in place to let this case go for basically nothing.
They were going to give him a deferred disposition, meaning just sort of dismiss the gun case, essentially and they were going to let him plead to misdemeanors on the tax case, which would have meant probation only. But then DOJ sort of changed its mind mid proceeding. Hunter Biden's team has said that DOJ reneged on the case and given my experience, it is suspicious the way that DOJ tried to suddenly back out of that case in the face of some political pressure.
So, I do think there is some merit to the view that Hunter Biden was treated differently here because of his last name.
DEAN: All right, Ellie, stay with us. I want to go to our senior White House correspondent MJ Lee, who is joining us on the phone. And MJ, you've got some new reporting about how Biden arrived at this decision.
MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (via phone): Yes, you know, Jessica, I think over the past few months as President Biden and White House officials continue to say that the president did not plan to pardon his son, Hunter, there was this very human question that a lot of people had, and that was why not given that as president of the United States, Joe Biden as Hunter's father was the one person who could do this for him before he leaves office.
And look this might sound obvious, but I am told by a White House official tonight that this was a decision that the president wrestled with and ultimately a decision that he made as, of course, president but as Hunter's father.
I'm told, and some of this is reflected in the statement that we saw from the president that the president came to believe that raw politics had infected the process and that he saw how political opponents of his, the president were trying to hurt his son. The word "cruel" was used to describe how the president processed what he believed his son was going through because, again, of the raw politics. And I'm told, once he made the decision over the weekend, he felt like there was just no point in delaying -- letting the American people know that this was a decision that he was going to make. And moving ahead with officially pardoning his son.
One thing I'm told that particularly swayed the president was this belief that his political opponents were trying to break his son Hunter, as he was recovering from addiction.
Obviously, this has been a very painful episode and time for the entire Biden family, as they have seen all of the sort of hardships that Hunter Biden had gone through over the years really spill out into the public, and ultimately the president believed that that was not fair, that is not new to us. That is one thing that he has repeatedly said he believed was a result of the politics.
But at the same time, I think over the months, we saw the president continue to maintain that he believed in the judicial system. But at the end of the day, again, I'm told, this is a decision that President Biden made as president and as a father because he believed that his son was unfairly targeted. He thought that the treatment of his son had been cruel.
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DEAN: Yes and MJ, I'm thinking about, as you're saying this, made this decision as a father and a president, of course, President Biden is incredibly close to his son, Hunter. But just reminding people that he lost his other son, Beau Biden in 2015 and that that Hunter Biden is his only living son.
MJ, can you shed any light and just kind of give people some context around that relationship and just the way -- just how close knit this family is.
LEE: Yes, this is a very close knit family and in the moments when President Biden has had to make some of the biggest decisions, even in his political career, it is often the case that the last people in the room are members of his family.
I mean, even just looking back on the President's decision over the summer, of course to drop out of the 2024 race and his seeking of a second term, we know from our reporting back then how much his son, Hunter was a part of that process.
He really leaned on his son, Hunter, particularly as you point out in Beau's absence. Beau, of course, died a number of years ago.
This is somebody that has been in the room for these kinds of important moments, somebody that the president has really leaned on. And again, I think that is why it's important for us to talk about this decision, having been made by President Biden as he is in office in his remaining months in office, but also, again as a father, he believed that this was the right thing to do as a father.
One sentence that stood out to me, and this is something a White House official just told me as well, there's a line in the statement from the president that says he is hopeful that the American people will understand why he made this decision.
I think, in that sentence, there is sort of a suggestion that he understands this could be controversial, that not everyone is going to understand this or agree with this decision, particularly because again, keep in mind, over the past few months, we have repeatedly heard either the president or various White House officials when asked this question whether he is going to make this decision of potentially pardoning his son, they had repeatedly said that he would not.
DEAN: All right, MJ Lee, stay with us. I do want to go to Douglas Brinkley, a presidential historian. Douglas, just give us some context around a president doing this for a family member as Elie Honig noted, this is not the first time we have seen this, but this is a father-son dynamic that MJ was just talking about, and you know, again, as we read this statement, it's very much clear that President Biden believes his son was targeted because he is his son.
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, it's not just President Biden. They did a 52-page lawyer's brief that Joe Biden had read saying that Hunter Biden was being treated unfairly because he was the president's son. Alas, we're not going to know because this pardon is going to kick in.
But December 12th was looming, that's when the gun charge was going to kick in so we knew this moment was coming between now and December 1.
I think it made sense for President Biden to do it here on a sleepy Sunday night after Thanksgiving. It will explode tomorrow in the media of all kinds -- it is already. But nothing here is surprising. The thought that Joe Biden was going to leave office and have his son in prison seemed remote at best.
And so, it's more than a family story of Joe Biden and Beau and Hunter, but the laptop of Hunter Biden became part of the political landscape for years now.
You know, with "The New York Post" story that it was a cover up of that by the mainstream media, that it really should have been reported sooner to the fact that there was accusations that it was Russian disinformation to the fact now, all that noise about Hunter Biden, alas, it comes to rest. He's going to go on live his life. Joe Biden will leave the White House and this will become part of our political history and folklore.
DEAN: Yes, it will. All right, Douglas Brinkley I want to say thank you so much for joining us.
Again, our breaking news tonight that President Joe Biden has issued a pardon for his son, Hunter Biden, on both of these cases, both the gun case in Delaware and the tax cases in California.
President Biden releasing a lengthy statement, essentially making the case that he didn't believe that this was a fair outcome because his son, he believed was targeted. He ended it by saying, "I hope Americans will understand why a father and a president would come to this decision."
Of course, there's going to be much more. Thank you so much for joining me on a busy Sunday night.
I'm Jessica Dean. Stay tuned. "Space Shuttle Columbia: The Final Flight Part 1" is next. Have a great night.
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