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Biden Pardons Hunter Before Leaving For Africa; Trump Plans To Replace FBI Director With Loyalist Kash Patel; Ukrainian Troops Fighting To Hold Onto Gains In Kursk; Syrian Rebels Push Into Aleppo's Northern Countryside; Protests In Georgia After Delay To Join EU. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired December 02, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:47]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. Thanks so much for joining me today on CNN NEWSROOM.

And let's get right to the news.

President Joe Biden touched down in Angola today, fulfilling in the 11th hour his promise to be the first American president in more than a decade to visit the continent of Africa. But right before he left this country, he dropped a political bomb in Washington, wielding one of the offices most awesome powers, the pardon to shield his own son, Hunter, from legal liability.

And, of course, Hunter did have lots of liability. He was convicted of lying about his drug use in order to buy a gun and pleaded guilty to evading taxes, pardoning him is a major reversal for the president, who had repeatedly and emphatically said he would not take this step on the campaign trail.

He is catching political fire for it from all sides. Democrats critical of the president and the message and sense and precedent it sets. Republicans accusing Biden of hypocrisy. The special counsel weighed in just moments ago in a court filing denying that the charges against Hunter Biden were politically motivated this, as the president had claimed in a statement, and opposing the pardon.

Senior White House correspondent M.J. Lee joins me now.

And, M.J., as we understand it, CNN reporting is that he did not run this through the DOJ's pardon office, did it himself. In effect, do we know why the president changed his mind here for this?

M.J. LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is something that White House officials are now saying was a decision that he only came to over the weekend after he had spent a couple of days in Nantucket, gathered with his family for Thanksgiving.

You know, I will tell you, you're talking about some of the backlash that the White House and the president are getting for this reversal. They are fully aware of how bad this looks. They are fully aware that this marks a total reversal and a total about face for the president and a White House that repeatedly said and unequivocally had said that he had no interest in pardoning his son, Hunter. You know, we've actually yet to hear directly from the president himself, other than that written statement that we got from him late last night as he is now traveling in Angola for a couple of days. But we did hear the first lady earlier today telling reporters, of course, she supports this decision.

As for the White House press secretary, Karine Jean-Pierre who herself had said repeatedly over the course of months when asked about this issue that the president was not going to pardon Hunter Biden she is now getting pressed with a number of questions on this reversal and the decision to change his mind, or either the president having been dishonest about this being his intention, and she interestingly and notably acknowledged that the results of the presidential election last month was a factor in the presidents decision. This is what she said.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

REOPRTER: Do you think this would have happened in Harris, hadn't lost the election?

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Look, I'm not going to -- I'm not going to get into the election. It is a no -- I can answer that, it's a no. And what I can say --

REPORTER: It's a no? This would not have happened if Harris hadn't lost the election? A pardon would not have happened if Harris hadn't lost the election?

JEAN-PIERRE: I can speak to where we are today, and so I can't speak to hypotheticals here. Where we are today, the president made this decision over the weekend. He thought about it. He wrestled with it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEE: Interesting that she says she can't speak to hypotheticals, but actually precisely did just that in her answer.

Jim, I think, you know, based on our reporting and if you read through the president's lengthy statement last night, it is pretty clear that ultimately, for the president it came down to a father wanting to do what he could to protect his son. One White House official I spoke with said that as he had been watching his political opponents go after his son, he felt that that treatment was cruel, that his son, Hunter had simply endured enough.

[15:05:03]

And one thing in particular, I am told, that played a role in swaying the president is his belief that his political opponents were willing to and ready to break his son, Hunter even as he was going through his addiction recovery process and

that his political opponents were willing to and ready to break his son, Hunter even as he was going through his addiction recovery process and the president actually talked about this a little bit in his statement he said there has been an effort to break Hunter, who has been five and a half years sober even in the face of unrelenting attacks and selective prosecution. He also said last night in trying to break Hunter, they've tried to break me and there's no reason to believe it will stop there.

Now, obviously, we know that the president lost his son, Beau Biden, in 2015, and Hunter is his only living son, so you can definitely understand if he's saying he did this as a father, why he felt like he wanted to exercise the power that he does have to pardon him. And it is no coincidence, Jim, that in that statement he specifically said, I hope Americans will understand why a father and a president would come to this decision.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you, M.J., just in follow to Karine Jean-Pierre's answer there, where she seemed to acknowledge that the fact that Trump would be the new president factored in this decision, to be clear, was it his concern that under Trump, law enforcement would come after his son more harshly? Was that the specific concern?

LEE: Yeah, I think that is definitely the suggestion. There that with Donald Trump's election rather than Vice President Kamala Harris's. And look particularly given that in the last few days, we have the intention to nominate Kash Patel to lead the FBI. I think there was a growing concern and sort of an acknowledgment, even though even among those in Biden's circle and allies around him that this was going to be a totally different situation than had there been a President Kamala Harris.

And one thing I will tell you, you know, I've been speaking to former White House and administration officials, everyone I've spoken to so far, to a person, they've told me, Jim that they never believed it when the president in months prior had said, I would never pardon my son Hunter, they just felt like, why wouldn't he? He is his father. He has this power to do so. We never believed it when he said it but the thing that they are angry about right now is why did he then insist over and over again -- again, unequivocally, that he wouldn't do this, if they all felt like this was obviously going to be the outcome and the decision that he would ultimately make?

SCIUTTO: M.J. Lee, thanks so much.

So for more on this and the consequences, lets' bring in CNN senior reporter Stephen Collinson.

Stephen, one very clear fact here. The president said he would not do this. He has now done this.

Now, we should note that presidents have used the pardon power to help their families before Bill Clinton issued clemency, I should say in his case for his brother Rogers 1985 drug conviction. Trump, of course, pardoned his son in law's father, Charles Kushner, who he has now appointed as his ambassador to France.

That said, though this is a son who has been convicted. Has Biden stained the pardon power as a result? STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Well, as you point out, there

have been some pretty egregious abuses of the pardon power, not just in recent decades, but throughout us history. I think the problem here is not so much, you know clearly, there's humanity in this situation. Obviously, there's a concern that the Trump people, by virtue of their own words, will come after Hunter Biden, perhaps unfairly but there is a great deal of cynicism in the United States outside Washington about the justice system.

President Biden came to office vowing to depoliticize the justice system and to ensure the rule of law. To an outsider this looks a lot like a powerful man, a president protecting his own son who was convicted through the due process of law. And I don't see how it can be any other way than it spreads even greater cynicism about the justice system and the idea that powerful people can get away with things that other people can't.

SCIUTTO: No question. Although we should note that the Justice Department under President Biden did prosecute his son in two different instances. That said, the end result is obvious.

I want to ask now, of course, Trump is celebrating this, and as he often does seeks to take advantage. I wonder, does Trump now claim even greater license to pardon than he already was? I mean, I think, for instance, of his campaign promise to pardon many of those who attacked the Capitol on January 6th.

COLLINSON: Right. Trump was already spraying pardons around very liberally at the end of his first term. You mentioned Charles Kushner, the father, in law of his daughter Ivanka, who's now been picked to be ambassador to Paris.

[15:10:06]

That seems a complete case of political corruption, at least as far as Trump's opponents are saying. Trump has already posted on social media that he -- that this case should be compared to the January 6th -- sixers, as they're called, people who took part in the mob riot at the capitol in 2021, he said on the campaign trail he would pardon a lot of these people who are some of them serving very long jail terms, and he's going to come under great pressure once he gets in office to do so.

I don't think it would have changed his decision. But this gives him a political rationale to turn around and say, well, the Justice Department was corrupt. It went, there's a two tier justice system. Biden's people can get away with things that Trump's people can't. So I will pardon these people.

So sure, he's going to use this.

SCIUTTO: I mean, the January 6th rioters put the lives of both Democratic and Republican lawmakers in danger, we should note. And many of those Republican lawmakers who are now cheering this were, of course, threatened on that day.

Stephen Collinson, thanks so much.

COLLINSON: Thanks.

SCIUTTO: Well, one factor that could have impacted Biden's thinking on that pardon is President-elect Donald Trump's pick for FBI director. That is Kash Patel. We learned this Saturday night. A fierce MAGA loyalist, former terrorism prosecutor who worked in national security in Trump's first term, though at a lower level.

You'll remember the current director, Christopher Wray, was nominated by Trump himself and has three years left on his term. Those terms are ten years. They are by design -- they transcend presidential terms because they want to depoliticize the FBI.

CNN senior justice correspondent Evan Perez joins me now.

So, Evan, a lot of unusual going around as you know, and you've covered a lot of it. But how unusual is it for a president elect to announce he's going to fire or force out the FBI director midterm before he even takes office? And I wonder, do we know if Christopher Wray might resign or wait to be fired?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I think, Jake -- I'm sorry, Jim. One of the big unusual things about this is that, you know, traditionally we believe that we have one president at a time. And right now, Donald Trump is certainly making it seem like he's already president. He doesn't have the power to fire Chris Wray right now.

And one of the things that has been going on behind the scenes at the FBI has been because Trump made clear that he wanted to get rid of Wray would be would what would Wray do? And does he resign before Trump gets in on January 20th, or does he wait. And I think one of a lot of the advice that the director of the FBI has been getting has been to for the protection of the institution for -- to sort of underscore what you just said, which is that this is a ten year term, and there's a reason why it exists that because of that, Wray should not go anywhere.

And so, the first statement you saw from the FBI over the weekend reaffirmed that Wray intends to stay put, at least for now. We don't know whether he will accede to the -- to the incoming president's requests and just hand in his resignation on January 20th. But for now, he is remaining on the job.

And the big question also is how easy of a time does Kash Patel have in the next few weeks to get those votes? To get this nomination approved? We don't know whether the Senate is going to go along with this especially given the fact that the history for Kash Patel tells us that that he's a firebrand, that he is a bomb thrower, and its not clear whether that's what you want in an FBI director, Jim.

SCIUTTO: We're going to go deeper into some of the statements and threats he's made, made later in this broadcast.

I wonder, you speak to a lot of folks in that building. How are agents reacting to this decision? And we should note that Bill Barr, Trump's attorney general in the first term, he was not happy with Trump's attempt to install him as acting director in the final days of his last administration.

PEREZ: Right. I mean, he was seen as completely unqualified. And I think that that sentiment remains. You hear that from everybody who worked alongside Kash Patel in these positions. Now, I will say this. I mean, the big concern that you hear from inside the FBI is that, you know, for most of the agents, you know, they're not doing politically sensitive jobs.

They're not, you know, they're going after bad guys, they're going after the threats from China, some of the overseas threats that you and I, Jim, spent so much time focusing on and working on stories about. Those are -- those are the jobs that they do and very little of what they do has to do with the politics of who's president and some of the political investigations.

And so the big concern that you hear is that if you have an FBI director whose sole stated purpose is to go after the deep state and to go after some political retribution foray inside -- inside the government then that really takes away from the mission that the FBI is supposed to be about.

[15:15:13]

And it does raise concerns as to whether, you know, you take your eye off the ball, what other bad things could happen because you're focused on finding domestic enemies?

SCIUTTO: Yeah. He's vowed to shut the whole building down right on his first day. Well, well -- thanks so much.

PEREZ: We'll see.

SCIUTTO: Thanks so much, Evan Perez. And as I said, we will have much more on Kash Patel later.

In this hour, still ahead, Syrian and Russian jets are stepping up strikes on rebels in northern Syria after the opposition seized much of Aleppo, the country's second largest city. We are following what continues to be a developing story. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: The White House is set to announce another military aid package for Ukraine. The $725 million aid package would come ahead of President-elect Donald Trump's inauguration. It's larger than other recent ones from the U.S.

Trump has said he could pause aid to Ukraine once he is in office. The Biden administration eager to get it help.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has approved a record setting defense budget of about $126 billion. The spending will account for almost a third of Russia's 2025 budget. It's a war economy there. That is what Ukraine is fighting for.

Ukrainian soldiers on the front lines in the Kursk region of Russia, which you may remember, they invaded a number of weeks ago. A crucial battle is underway.

Nick Paton Walsh reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They have a three-second window rushing out with the U.S. supplied stinger and an aging anti-aircraft gun to shoot down Russian attack drones in the fleeting moment they fly overhead in range.

[15:20:01]

Three kilometers from them.

They could hit that and prepare to.

But the radar is wrong and they pause to hear it.

UKRAINIAN SOLDIER: Turn there.

WALSH: So, reposition the entire truck, but suddenly the drone has vanished. It sounded like a decoy but that usually means others are coming and the sky is filling up with drones in the next region.

A month ago, the targets here seemed endless.

November was a record month for drones across Ukraine that usually crash into towns, not this empty field. Their sound slices through the dark.

It was pretty low and close, and while they think this is Ukrainian drones headed for Russia, the Russians also used this moment to take the same routes to try and sneak their drones in. Right now, a Ukrainian drone attack on Russia is underway. So they've been forbidden even if they could, to fire each night they watch Russian drones weave their complex way out of their tiny range when the defenses fail, the icy silence breaks. Moscow pummeling the border town Sumy here with a cluster munition missile that killed 12 at an apartment block because Ukraine is still inside Russia, holding positions in Kursk.

This thermal drone image shows just hours earlier, the dawns fight in Kursk for Oleksandr.

OLEKSANDR, COMPANY COMMANDER, 225TH ASSAULT BATTALION: The assault teams came in the dawn grey. There was almost no contact. We worked with birds (drones). Then the infantry simply swept them up.

WALSH: In the positions they've hit, no sign of the North Korean troops meant to be in Kursk. Instead, Chechens even African mercenaries. But above all, endless waves of Russians OLEKSANDR: I have the impression they have unlimited people. It's like the next Russians don't know what happened to the previous Russians. So they go there, into the unknown.

WALSH: His Humvee is a mess. He hasn't slept for three days and shelling has damaged his hearing. But he knows what he'd say to President-elect Donald Trump. When Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons in the '90s, we were promised protection.

OLEKSANDR: You took away our nuclear weapons? You promised us protection? Yes, in simple terms, so keep your word. We're being slaughtered, and you're still trying to play games, to defend your interests. You have to give everything you could to end this war in two days. Who will believe the words of the U.S. or England, who are pissing themselves in front of Russia? Pardon my English.

WALSH: Confident they can hold out in Kursk, less confident of how long the West expects them to.

Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, Sumy, Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Syrian President Bashar al-Assad is facing the greatest threat to his regime. His power in years, the civil war that remained relatively quiet for eight years has now reignited, in an attempt to slow down this surprise offensive, launched by rebels last week. Russian and Syrian planes have stepped up aerial attacks on Aleppo and Idlib provinces, where the rebels have gained ground.

According to the U.N., at least 44 civilians have been killed in Idlib and Aleppo since the fighting restarted. At least 162 people have been injured, nearly two thirds of them women and children.

CNN's Katie Polglase walks us through the timeline of the offensive.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATIE POLGLASE, CNN INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Over the weekend, there was a major shakeup in the Syrian civil war. Rebel forces entered Aleppo for the first time in nearly a decade. It is a major achievement in their fight against the Syrian regime, led by President Bashar al Assad. Aleppo is Syria's second largest city, and they took it in a matter of days.

Here's what we know so far about what happened. Rebel fighters had been fighting near Aleppo for days, and just the day before, on Thursday this video shows they were less than five kilometers from the city's entrance. By Friday, we see fighters arriving at the western entrance to Aleppo. You can see this distinctive arch in the background. The sunlight indicates its late afternoon.

Further along the same street, we see them racing into the city. As they enter, many are on foot. At this point, regime forces are nowhere to be seen here. By early evening, even closer to the city center, the fighters get hold of a loudspeaker and start addressing local residents telling them not to be afraid as it gets dark, they reach al Basil roundabout and take down the regime flag.

By geolocating, videos of this route, we can see that they arrived in the west and by nightfall, they've taken more and more of the city.

[15:25:08]

Imagery shows they reach as far north as al-Rahman Mosque and they take the Citadel much further east.

On Saturday morning, the offensive gets bolder. A statue of President Bashar al-Assad's brother is toppled at al-Basil roundabout. But now, the regime is striking back. An airstrike hits the same roundabout within hours. Journalists in the city told CNN there were civilian casualties. The rebels fight on even entering Aleppo International Airport.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the airport. This is the airport.

POLGLASE: Still, the strikes by the regime continue. This one by the hospital. The strikes are delivered not only by Syrian airplanes, but Russian ones, too, a key regime ally.

As the situation on the ground continues to evolve rapidly and with the regime's main allies, Russia and Iran, being occupied with other wars, the question is whether these rebels can retain the land they have so quickly gained. And what will this mean for the civilians of Aleppo, who will inevitably bear the brunt of this fighting?

Katie Polglase, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Thanks to Katie Polglase there.

Here to break down what this means for Syria, for the region for the U.S. and other players, Itamar Rabinovich, former Israeli chief negotiator with Syria, former Israeli ambassador to the U.S. as well.

Ambassador, thanks so much for joining this afternoon.

ITAMAR RABINOVICH, FORMER ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: Pleasure.

SCIUTTO: So first question is how and why this played out now. Assad's biggest backers, of course, Russia, Iran and Hezbollah, they've been distracted by their own wars and their own setbacks in those wars, in recent months. Is this offensive a sign of their weakness?

RABINOVICH: It is also that, but there are other reasons. One is that Turkey, a very important player in Syria, was actually trying in the last few weeks to mend fences with Bashar al-Assad and Erdogan was rebuffed. And Erdogan doesn't take insults easily. So he may have encouraged the 50,000 rebels or so who have resided in Idlib for more than eight years now to take to the offensive. And they are very shrewd observers of the local scene. They understood that they had a chance and to some extent they repeated the success they had at the height of the civil war, when they captured large parts of Syria and Iraq and created a caliphate.

SCIUTTO: Can you describe how we might expect Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, known as HTS, how it would rule Syria? It, of course, had a past affiliation with al Qaeda, although it has now rescinded that affiliation. It claims it disavows international terrorism now and won't apply Sharia law around the country.

But as murderous as Assad's regime is, and that's been well- documented, is HTS any better as a potential ruler of Syria?

RABINOVICH: Well, actually, you know, they -- 50,000 of them have been in the province of Idlib since about 2016. That's when the civil war ended. I would say not a victory. But with the survival of Bashar al Assad and they've done a pretty good job in governing and managing the province of Idlib. So that speaks to their ability to do that.

Whether if they manage to hold on to a much larger swathe of Syria and have the prospect of a greater victory whether they will stand that test and prove to be as pragmatic as they have been in Idlib, remains to be seen.

SCIUTTO: What does this mean for Russia? Russia, of course, has been quite active in Syria for a number of years now as they wield power around the region. Assad is there. I think one could argue their proxy to some degree in the region. Is this a setback for Russian influence in the Middle East?

RABINOVICH: Yeah, it definitely is. And I think Russia is preoccupied, obviously, with the war in Ukraine. It is also active in other parts of the Middle East but it will be a hard put to help Russia on its own. It also doesn't like to use, quote/unquote, boots on the ground and for that, they will depend on Iran as they did when they first intervened in Syria in 2015. But for them or for Putin whose quest to restore Russia to the greatness of the Soviet Union, presence in the Mediterranean is very important the two naval bases and the air base in Syria are very important.

[15:30:13]

And he will go to a great length in order to keep them.

SCIUTTO: How about from Israel's perspective, is -- is and again, we're a long way from Assad collapsing here, right? Of course, he could fight back. And we're already seeing Russia and Iran help him in an attempt to do so. But if Assad were to fall, could Israel live with a Syria run by HTS?

RABINOVICH: And it could live with it. You know, we have so many nasty neighbors, and we'll have another one. But a more -- a more seriously, we -- of course, we would rather not. But, you know at the time, once President Bush hosted the Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in the White House, he had a blood account with Assad, and he told him, let's get rid of him. And Sharon responded by saying, he's the devil we know by which he meant that the army or the jihadists are the devil we don't know.

So these are -- this would be a choice between two unattractive options.

SCIUTTO: As you watch this play out, I wonder what odds you give Assad's government of surviving this. Listen, as you know better than me, he's been counted out before, including when you look back at the peak of the civil war starting, well, around 2011 or so, and he survived to see another day.

Do you think he survives this challenge to his power?

RABINOVICH: Well, he survived because in 2015, he -- Russia and Iran intervened in the war -- Iran with boots on the ground and Russia with its air force. And if they do so on a sufficient scale, this time he will survive, not because of his own capacity and power, but because he has protectors and -- but there will be a bill to be paid.

You know, Syria ended the civil war in 2016. There's been a hiatus of about eight years. But Syria has not gone back to being a normal country, 30 percent of his territory is ruled by Turkey, by the Kurds, by the rebels in province of Idlib, possibly at the end of this even a greater chunk of the territory would be under alien hands and Syria would remain a failed state.

You know, this unfortunately, there are seven failed Arab states in the Middle East, and that does not contribute to stability.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. Before we go, of course, as you know, we have a new president coming into the U.S. next month. And just in the last hour, President-elect Trump posted on his truth social that there will be, quote, all hell to pay in the Middle East if hostages in Gaza aren't released by his inauguration day.

Do you believe Trump has the ability the power to force such a deal? We've seen the Biden administration attempt for months, but we haven't seen convincing evidence that either Netanyahu or Hamas are interested in making such a deal. And of course, those are the two players.

RABINOVICH: Yeah and I suspect that Trump will lean -- he will lean on Netanyahu who depends on him and he will maybe not lean on Hamas because there's not much to lean on, but he can lean on Egypt, Qatar and Turkey, the people who have influence over Hamas.

So definitely, if the president of the United States puts his heart and mind to it, he can have a significant influence in trying to resolve this very painful issue.

SCIUTTO: Itamar Rabinovich, thanks so much for joining. We appreciate your insight.

RABINOVICH: Thank you for having me. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Coming up, we will dive deeper into President-elect Trump's pick to lead the FBI. A devout loyalist in Kash Patel, his plans to remake the agency and who he says he wants to prosecute, including journalists and those he claims are part of the deep state.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [15:37:41]

SCIUTTO: We want to take a closer look at Kash Patel, who is Trump's pick to run the Federal Bureau of Investigation and his quite public plans for the law enforcement agency. Patel has been a longtime attack dog for Trump, a self-proclaimed enemy of the deep state, as well as a former terrorism prosecutor with ambitious and divisive plans for the FBI.

Here is some of what he has said. First, on prosecuting journalists, quote: We're going to come after the people in the media who lied about American citizens who helped Joe Biden rig presidential elections whether its criminal or civilly.

On dissolving the FBI headquarters in Washington, I'd shut down the FBI Hoover Building on day one and reopen it the next day as a museum of the deep state.

On punishing career officials, calling to, quote, permanently suspend the security clearances for intel officials who opposed release of Hunter Biden's laptop in 2020. Those among a long list.

With me now to discuss is Steve Moore, retired supervisory special agent with the FBI.

Steve, it's good to have you.

You know what it's like to work for the FBI, but also what its powers are. I wonder, just from a matter of practicality and the law, beginning with going after journalists who he says falsely didn't back up the false claims of the 2020 election being, stolen can he, with the president's backing, choose to prosecute journalists or sue journalists because they want to?

STEVE MOORE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CONTRIBUTOR: He does -- he and he knows the answer to this. The answer is the Department of Justice has so many layers that where everybody would have to be complicit in that exact act, that you're not even going to get, as far as the FBI, you know, because the Justice Department will not allow prosecution of reporters. It's just not going to happen.

I can remember so many cases where we literally had to change investigative techniques because they said it might interfere with the press. And, so the FBI that I was a part of -- was absolutely death on -- on breaking with journalists.

[15:40:15]

SCIUTTO: Does that hold for agents, say, who took part in investigations of the former president? For instance, agents who took part in the search of the former president's Mar-a-Lago home for classified documents, which, by the way, they found there, backed by a judge's warrant but can they use the powers of the building to go after them.

MOORE: I can't imagine how they can do that they were acting within -- within their orders, and the orders weren't illegal. So I don't even see how that happens.

There's also procedures and policies that have been in that have been in the FBI for 75 years. You cant just you would have to spend years just changing the structure of the FBI before you could start going after people like that and, you know, I get that there needs to be changed. I think a lot of agents and ex-agents believe that the FBI has been politicized, but it doesn't mean that this is the answer.

SCIUTTO: Right. So tell me how do they believe -- when you speak to agents, how do they believe it's been politicized?

MOORE: Well, I think it goes back to Comey putting his thumb on the election by making a comment about Hillary Clinton that was completely out of -- out of bounds, and he was out of his lane. And then at that point, a lot of agents question whether January sixth was -- was -- where the FBI went, maybe too hard on that.

And there are, you know again, these are perceptions of agents, and that's where they stand. But the deal is that average FBI agent never even put a campaign sign in their yard for fear of violating the Hatch Act.

So, for people to come down and make public political statements and all this, this is not the bureau culture and while the agents want change I think what they're looking for is somebody who is loyal to America first, and the FBI second, and to the public -- to the president, third, because the FBI is responsible for investigating everything in the government.

And we just saw recently where a sitting president put family before the country and that's going to write a lot of copy for the Trump people. But the FBI is averse to getting involved in politics.

SCIUTTO: I suppose the question is, can Trump and his appointees who are being chosen, it appears specifically for both loyalty, but also a willingness to carry out the president's plan. And it seems a shared belief that, you know, some people got to go. I mean, the question is, can that commitment overcome all those policies, traditions and history that you're describing? That's an open question, isn't it?

Or do you believe that the history of the building there can withstand that sort of pressure if the commander in chief is saying, I want these guys out or I want to prosecute these guys, or I want to take away their security clearances, that's another thing he's saying about some former intelligence officials.

MOORE: I don't think he understands the FBI. I don't think he understands the line FBI agent or the field offices.

I don't think anybody who says that understands that -- when I was in the FBI and my boss would say, we need to go and execute a warrant on this and if I said we don't have -- we don't have probable cause for this warrant. I'm not going to do that. You could talk to your bosses that way and say, I'm not comfortable with the legality of this or the constitutionality of this. They would have to change that culture. The FBI and I -- and I know this from absolute experience, we get

calls from Washington. We get calls from Pennsylvania Avenue and not just from the headquarters building, and we get suggestions as to what we might do with investigations. Agents despise that because they're doing their level best as well as they can in a nonpolitical way. And so any time the phone rings and you pick it up and its Washington, D.C. there is an immediate, tightening of the chest, and, what's coming now.

So I don't think anybody who believes that they can do this understands the FBI.

[15:45:01]

SCIUTTO: Before we go, do you believe if pushed too far, if asked to do something that agents and I know you can't speak for all of them. I'm just asking, based on your experience that agents believe is wrong or outside the norms of the agency. Can you see them just saying no, walking out, saying, I'm not going to do it?

MOORE: Yeah, I mean, it's happened before and agents pay prices for that. It ain't cheap. There -- there's not that many whistleblowers in the FBI that get away with blowing whistles. The F -- if you're going to as an agent, basically say, I'm not going to follow that order, then its going to cost you big, and there are, again, like I say, the average rank and file agent is pretty, pretty strong in the belief that the FBI's been politicized.

And they would like that to change. But changing polarity on the political situation is not going to make them very happy because they don't believe that the FBI is a political tool.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. Well. it'll be tested. Stephen Moore, thanks so much for joining us.

MOORE: Uh-huh.

SCIUTTO: Just after the break, what is behind the nation of Georgia's decision to suspend talks regarding joining the European Union, the E.U.? It's a move that's led to days of protests by millions of Georgian citizens and some clashes with police, as well.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Georgia is being rocked by days of protests demonstrators in the streets of the capital Tbilisi. Some were seen tossing fireworks at police officers responded with volleys of water cannons. Tensions in Georgia have been simmering for months. This latest round of unrest, however, sparked on Thursday when the government announced it would suspend talks to join the European Union for four years.

[15:50:00]

To be clear, there is widespread public support for joining the E.U.

CNN's Sebastian Shukla has been following the latest developments from Berlin.

Tell us what's happening here now, because this is tied to allegations that the most recent elections were fraudulent, that brought in Georgia dream, which is a essentially a pro-Russian party, very much against E.U. membership here.

Are we seeing those two issues come together here, questions about the election and now this move away from a path to E.U. membership?

SEBASTIAN SHUKLA, CNN PRODUCER: Yeah, very much so, Jim.

Actually, we're seeing on the streets of Tbilisi right now are more clashes between protesters and police with the protesters, as we've seen become a firing fireworks at the at the police officers and the law enforcement authorities responding by firing water cannon and launching tear gas.

But you're exactly right, Jim, this all stemmed from the Georgian dreams idea that it wanted to pause its negotiations on joining the European Union. Georgia has an 80 percent support for joining -- Georgians have 80 percent support for joining the European Union, so supportive of it, it's actually enshrined in Georgia's constitution that eventually it will ascend to become one of the E.U. members.

I mean, it has also aspirations to join NATO, but these protests are focused specifically on the on the on joining the European Union. The prime minister, for his part has said that, look, were no -- we're not negotiating with anybody. We're going to continue with this path and we're going to delay for four years.

The president, which is creating a antagonism now at the top of the Georgian political spectrum, has said that she's not going to step down at the end of her term, which is in December, and ends in December. And she's going to remain in power. What this is fomenting is more antagonism and more strife for the Georgian people as it starts to look very, very unclear what's going to happen.

Georgians, for their part, though, have seen the Georgian dream. Who were the elected party before -- before these elections go on, a series of more draconian, more draconian anti-E.U., pro-Russian laws, including a foreign agents law which has very similar messaging to the one published and enacted by the Kremlin. There has also been sweeping changes to social issues as well, things like LGBTQ+ rights have been severely curtailed.

So this really is a groundswell grassroots movement of the large majority of Georgians protesting against the government and trying to express the will of the people. And at the moment, the government is just simply not listening, burying its head in the sand, and has no intention to listen by the sound of it, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Of course, the worry is, does the response become more violent? There are lots of parallels here to what we saw in the Maidan in Ukraine a number of years ago.

Seb Shukla, thanks so much. And we will be right back with more.

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[15:55:45]

SCIUTTO: Finally, this hour, if mindless memes and silly online videos or even politics are taking up too much of your time, you may be suffering from brain rot.

A term that's become so widely used its now the word of the year, according to the Oxford University press. Brain rot encapsulates the digital age of doomscrolling. The word describes a deterioration of a person's mental state due to the overconsumption of trivial content. It fits.

Other contenders this year included demure which was named dictionary.com word of the year last week. Romantasy, fiction that belongs -- that blends both romance and fantasy. And slop a demeaning term for A.I. generated content.

Brain rot, Lots of that going around.

Thanks so much for joining me today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.