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Memphis Police Department Under Fire; Search Continues For New York Gunman. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired December 05, 2024 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:40]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Well, good morning. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Pamela Brown in Washington.

We have some breaking news in the search for the gunman in yesterday's shocking killing of UnitedHealthcare's CEO. Police have searched a hostel in Upper Manhattan where he may have been staying, and investigators may now have an image of his face. You're seeing some of these pictures right now.

Joining us is CNN's Brynn Gingras, who has been breaking news on the story, and former senior FBI official Katherine Schweit.

To kick it off with you, tell us more about the search of the hostel.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, right, Pamela.

So sources are telling me and John Miller that they believe that this gunman stayed there for a couple of days. And some interesting things coming out of the search of that hospital, as you mentioned -- hostel, as you mentioned, that was on the Upper West -- or is on the Upper West Side.

They say that, while the gunman stayed there, he actually wore a mask, as we have seen in all of those images you just showed your viewers at the Starbucks here, at the scene of where the killing actually happened. He wore that mask for most of the time at that hospital, even while staying with a couple of other people.

What we learned, though, either at the check-in process or the check- out process, police were able to get an image of this person without the mask on. However, a hood is up. And so they're trying to determine if it's a good enough image where, if it's disseminated, can someone identify who that person is or are they able to identify who that person is?

So this could be key in this big question of who this gunman is. Of course, more outstanding questions remain. And where is this gunman at this point? And that search still continues at this hour. Some other pieces of evidence, though, that I really want to point out to you, Pam, we're also learning from sources, if you remember, that the gunman dropped a water bottle and a cell phone as he was getting away from this area where we are right now.

We have learned that police were able to get a lot of evidence. We have learned that the fingerprints off of those items. However, it did not turn up anything in forensics, but that's not a dead end. We're told by sources that could mean if they do get a name, they can run it back through those images and see if that helps with the investigation.

So these are some really important investigative threads that we are continuing to learn about while the search continues. And, certainly, a motive is still an outstanding question. Earlier today, our colleague John Miller learned that the words delay and depose were on the shell casing and a live round found here at the scene.

Investigators at this point asking the question, is that pointing to a motive since, in the health care industry, a phrase that's used often is delay, deny, and defend. So was the gunman trying to deliver some sort of message with this act?

So these are all things that are continuing to be looked into, but certainly making headway in this investigation, Pam.

BROWN: All right. Thanks so much, Brynn.

I want to go to Katherine for some more analysis on this.

It's so interesting that these words were on these tiny little shell casings, right? I mean, to me, that shows the amount of premeditation and effort and how just sort of planned and targeted this was.

KATHERINE SCHWEIT, FORMER SENIOR FBI OFFICIAL: I think we often think of violence as just somebody who just pulls a gun out, shoots somebody. Then it's over with.

But targeted, planned violence, which is clearly what this is, there's so much preplanning that goes into it. And it's really even not about somebody else, like the person who has been shot knowing that those were written on the shell casings. It's the passion and the agony and the anger that this person feels.

And by writing on the shell casings, they are -- it's cathartic for them. They're showing they're in control. They're going to do damage to somebody who damaged them. This is a very, very personal, very, very personal event.

BROWN: You think it's personal?

SCHWEIT: Absolutely.

BROWN: I want to listen to what scene in chief law enforcement intelligence analyst John Miller said about the significance of those words on the shell casings.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Investigators doing research into what could this mean, delay, depose, found the maximum of deny delay, depose variations of the maximum deny delay, defend, which is actually the name of a book, these are sayings and you can find them all over the Internet and Reddit and other postings about insurance company practices of trying to find ways out of paying on claims that they are disputing.

[11:05:10]

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: I want to go back to you on that.

And just for our viewers' understanding, Katherine, you specialize in targeted shootings. So you have spent many years specializing in this kind of situation. What do you make about the meaning behind these words?

SCHWEIT: I think that when we say somebody who's committing this kind of targeted violence, what they're doing is trying to find a way to tell everybody else, I have done what I tried to do to correct the problem and other people wouldn't listen. You wouldn't listen, you wouldn't listen, you wouldn't listen. Now I'm going to be in charge and I'm going to take care of this and I'm going to make sure that things are right.

They don't even care so many times we find in targeted violence that -- as we saw in the school shooting in California late yesterday afternoon, the shooter kills themselves. They come in with an intent to do some injury and they are so determined to do it.

So I think the interesting thing for what we're seeing about the insurance company is right now we see that this idea of, especially for instance, post-acute care, the coverage limitations, the rates going up and then the outrage of people saying -- somebody like this individual, he's saying, oh, I have paid my dues, I paid my insurance and I didn't get my coverage.

That's the kind of thing that I think we're going to see. Obviously, time is going to tell, but I think we have somebody who's obviously impacted by the insurance company.

BROWN: Right.

SCHWEIT: And they're so angry, they don't know what else to do. And this is their choice.

BROWN: And so, again, we're still learning more. We don't know the final answer to the motive.

But if this person had a grievance against the company, going for the CEO would make sense. It's not as though the CEO was personally involved in a claim, but it's someone who can represent...

SCHWEIT: Right. It's a message.

BROWN: It's a message, exactly. SCHWEIT: It's a message, right.

BROWN: And I think that's important.

And it also -- Brynn laid out the fact that water bottle -- they have a water bottle, a phone. They're trying to figure out if it's connected to the suspect. I mean, on one hand, this was premeditated, planned, targeted, but, on the other hand, I mean, leaving behind a water bottle or the cell phone doesn't necessarily show a lot of sophistication.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHWEIT: Exactly.

I think I know we saw that we have certainly heard that he has some way, a good handle on how to use the weapon, even though the silencer kept jamming on him. But the idea that he makes all of these plans, we see all of these shooters, they make all their plans, but they're not professional.

This isn't the movies.

BROWN: A hit man, basically.

SCHWEIT: They're not professional hit men, right? And so they're going to make mistakes and they're going to drop the water bottles and they're going to -- because they have a very diligent plan that they have worked out, but they don't have a contingency for lots of things.

And even to get like a partial fingerprint, as John mentioned, that's great, but not everybody's prints are in the system. And that doesn't mean we're going to find out who it is.

BROWN: Yes. That's key.

SCHWEIT: But with a water bottle, DNA, but it takes a few days to get DNA, so -- figure it out. So maybe we will get DNA.

BROWN: Do you think the suspect is still in New York at this point? I mean, what's your -- I mean, it's been a while now, right? It has been 24 hours. So...

SCHWEIT: It has been 24 hours, and it's somebody who is invisible, has tried to make himself invisible.

So the plan would have included to get away and it probably included moving from the park, right -- from the hotel to the park, and then the park to a bus or a train and out of town. So I think it's a very challenging case for NYPD and the law enforcement working on it in terms of the ability to find actually physically where this person is.

They might be able to identify him, but they have to find him too.

BROWN: As time goes by, it just gets harder, I imagine.

All right, Katherine, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

And coming up: Federal officials just held a news conference on the scathing Justice Department report on the Memphis Police Department, this report coming 17 months after the fatal beating of Tyre Nichols by officers. I will speak to a Memphis pastor who spoke at Nichols' funeral for reaction.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:13:31]

BROWN: The Memphis police chief, C.J. Davis, speaking right now, on the defensive after this bombshell and scathing report from the DOJ about her department. Let's listen in.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

C.J. DAVIS, MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE, POLICE CHIEF: Yes.

So our response and mine is very similar to the mayor. We haven't had an opportunity to really thoroughly look at the complete report. However, modifications and changes in the Memphis Police Department have been ongoing for some time now. Significant changes have been ongoing.

In some of the areas that were outlined in the report, we have made significant changes aligned with the Department of Justice, getting their support with some of the training that has been ongoing, not just this year, but in previous years. We have ongoing training and policy changes as well in the Memphis Police Department.

In the last three years, we have changed over 700 policies in the Memphis Police Department. Policies that help to direct process, help to improve officer response. Community engagement has been a significant part of the work that we're doing to ensure that we don't just go out and create various types of policies and processes, but to also have our community members engaged as well, our community members and our clergy.

We have graduated over 1,000 children. Some of the report talks about children, which is -- for me as a chief and for our department,we spend a lot of time with our children in our community. We have graduated over 1,000 children from our D.A.R.E. G.R.E.A.T. program and work consistently to try to improve those relationships.

[11:15:17]

So we're going to look through the report to ensure that we're not missing anything. We know that we have opportunities to improve every day. And so, at this point, we are moving forward with working with our officers internally, working with the community, as the mayor said, to have open conversations about what this report means and how we can better the police department and Memphis.

BROWN: All right, so we were just hearing there from the police chief in Memphis, C.J. Davis. And she said, as we just heard, that her department has made more than 700 policy changes since the death of Tyre Nichols.

And she said that they have been working with DOJ on training and essentially challenging the results of the scathing report from DOJ.

Nick Valencia, to bring you in, what do you make of the police chief's response to this?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's not just the scathing report that's shocking. It's also the response from the city.

We have read that city attorney statement, which basically assumes that there's going to be no consequences for them refusing to enter this consent decree, at least in the immediate. But, really, what's shocking to me are the cases that were highlighted of excessive force.

You have an instance highlighted by the DOJ Civil Rights Division of a man who was slammed to the ground for littering, another instance of a man with -- reportedly with mental health issues who was trying to steal a $2 soft drink from a gas station. And during that instance, there was 12 squad cars that responded, nine police officers. And that man was reportedly repeatedly Tased.

And then perhaps the most shocking, Pamela, is the story of an 8-year- old who had mental health issues, behavioral issues; 911 was called by his mother. And during the response, a police officer with a Memphis P.D. grabbed him, raised him in the air and then threw him on the couch. There's a photo of that instance included in this more-than-70- page report.

But this also is very curious, the timing of this investigation. It comes before the inauguration of president-elect Donald Trump. And this is something that the DOJ was asked about, their timing, especially considering the city's response. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REAGAN TAYLOR FONDREN, ACTING UNITED STATES ATTORNEY, WESTERN DISTRICT OF TENNESSEE: The mission of the Department of Justice is to protect civil rights for all people.

So the career employees of the Department of Justice, the federal prosecutors of the United States Attorney's Office will continue that mission through any administration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: It's worth mentioning that, in 2016, almost immediately after being elected in office, the Trump administration abandoned these types of consent decrees with local police departments.

So the question is, is the Memphis Police Department of the city just biding their time and waiting for Trump to take office again? Meanwhile, the court proceedings are ongoing. The federal trial just happened where two of the five officers involved in the beating death of Tyre Nichols, which sparked this federal investigation, they pleaded guilty to violating civil rights, deprivation of civil rights. Three of the officers were found guilty of witness tampering. They

were acquitted of deprivation of civil rights. But now we wait for the state murder charges, and that trial expected to get under way on April 28. Meanwhile, Pamela, that press conference and the response from the police chief and the city still going on right now -- Pamela.

BROWN: All right, Nick Valencia, thanks so much.

Let's continue this conversation.

My next guest spoke at the Tyre Nichols funeral and was in close touch with the family at the time of his death. Reverend J. Lawrence Turner is with us now.

Reverend, I just want to get your reaction all of this. During Tyre Nichols' funeral, you called for reform so that no other black life would be unjustly taken like Tyre's. But this report we were just talking about from DOJ lays out that Memphis police still unlawfully discriminate against black people. What concerns you most about this?

REV. J. LAWRENCE TURNER, MISSISSIPPI BOULEVARD CHRISTIAN CHURCH): Well, when we see this report, it is disturbing, but not surprising.

It really puts in print form the context of which the Tyre Nichols incident took place in, that there are many persons who have had adverse and violent interactions with law enforcement in Memphis. And so as we hope that the state and the federal trials will continue to bring about accountability for those officers, I think Memphis has to be focused on the way forward.

And this investigation and the findings are going to help to put forth a blueprint about how we move forward with policy reforms, training, and supervision to make sure these reforms are implemented.

BROWN: So the report says that the Memphis Police Department treats black people more harshly than white people who engage in similar conduct.

The Memphis Police Department has more than 50 percent of a black work force. Its police chief is also black. All five ex-officers who were charged in Nichols' death were black. In line of that, what do you make of the report's findings?

[11:20:03]

TURNER: Well, I think it is speaking of the reality that it is a police culture that, when we move from constitutional policing, it leads away for there to be racialized policing to take place.

So whether one is a black officer or white officer, it opens up a door for them to treat African-Americans in a way that they would not treat Caucasian Americans. And so this, again, report is allowing us to concretize what's been happening in the community and to see the discriminatory policing has been taking place in our city against African-Americans, regardless of the race of the officers.

BROWN: The city says that it will not agree to federal oversight right now until it can review and challenge results of the report.

And then, of course, we just heard there from the police chief, saying that it's already made more than 700 policy changes and it's working with DOJ on training. What do you think about that?

TURNER: Well, I think that the spirit of the Assistant Attorney General Clarke, as well as the office here in West Tennessee, has been one of cooperation and wanted to work with the city administration and the police department.

And Chief Davis has laid out some of the work that has been going on since the death of Tyre Nichols. And so I'm hoping that they will get to the point where some agreement will be made between the Department of Justice and MPD so that there is an ongoing document that can be monitored and which we can chronicle the progress that the Memphis Police Department is making towards substantive reforms.

BROWN: All right, Reverend J. Lawrence Turner, thank you.

TURNER: Thank you.

BROWN: And for more legal perspective, let's bring in CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig.

So, Elie, first of all, just help us understand the legal significance of this report.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Pam.

So this report that was issued last night is a 70-page report. It's the end of a year-and-a-half long investigation by the Justice Department of the Memphis Police Department. It's really important to understand, though, and the report says straight up right up front, while this report was sort of sparked by the beating death of Tyre Nichols, it's not about that incident.

As the reverend just said, those cases are being litigated under criminal cases in federal and state court. So what this is, is sort of a full-body MRI examination of the Memphis Police Department.

And the bottom-line conclusions of DOJ are that the police department systematically discriminates against black people, systematically violates the Constitution in the way that it uses force, often uses excessive force, that it often violates the Constitution in the way that it executes stops and searches and seizures and frisks, and that there's a problem within the Memphis P.D. in dealing with people with mental health issues and with children.

So it's really a scathing report. And I guess the big question now is, to what extent will Memphis as a city and the police department work with DOJ to remedy these issues?

BROWN: Well, right now, the city is not seeming like it wants to, right?

HONIG: Yes. BROWN: I mean, it's unusual too, because oftentimes DOJ will come out with a report, there will be a consent decree. We saw it in other recent cases. And in this case, they're really fighting back.

You heard the Memphis police chief coming out and defending the department, saying that they have implemented hundreds of hundreds of policy changes to improve officer response after the death of Tyre Nichols. What do you make of the city's response here and the police department?

HONIG: It is extraordinarily unusual to see a city reacting the way, the city of Memphis, separate from the police department, but the city of Memphis, is reacting.

Usually, when DOJ comes out with these reports, they will also announce that we, DOJ, have entered into what's called a consent decree with the city and the police department, meaning we all agree that we're going to work forward -- work together moving forward under the supervision of a judge and a monitor to make sure that these changes get implemented.

But Memphis' response here, the city is, well, we need to wait and see. We're not agreeing to that just yet. We need to sort of do our own investigation and file our own response.

And I think the practical thing that's going on here is, it looks like the city of Memphis is trying to run out the clock until the Trump administration takes over, because, under the Obama Democratic administration, there were 25 or so of these police investigations that happened. When Trump took over his first term, he essentially ended all of them.

The Biden administration has done them at a slower pace than the Obama administration, but this being one example and others, including Minneapolis. And I think the thinking might be these consent decrees are burdensome. They're very expensive. Let's wait this out if we're the city of Memphis and hope that it goes away when Trump takes over in a few weeks.

BROWN: Yes, it does raise a question whether those other departments, Minneapolis, you mentioned Louisville Police Department, whether they will walk away too.

HONIG: Right.

BROWN: Elie Honig, thank you so much.

We actually have some breaking news just coming in the search for the gunman in yesterday's shocking killing of UnitedHealthcare's CEO. Police have released this. Look at this, this new -- new photos coming in showing the suspected government unmasked inside a hostel.

[11:25:13]

Looks like he's smiling right there, this in the Upper West Side in New York City. CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst John Miller joins us now.

This is a big piece of evidence in this investigation, John.

MILLER: Well, it's a turning point.

We have been asking the metaphoric question, who is the man behind the mask? At least we don't know who is the man behind the mask, but we see the face behind the mask now. And police worked with these images. This is at a youth hostel, which is on the Upper West Side. They were there yesterday, last night, actually searching a room that they believe the gunman stayed in.

They believe this is a picture of him. He kept the jacket on and the hood up and the mask up almost at all times, according to people in that hostel. But there was this moment at the front desk in the lobby where the mask came down and you see that smile.

And this is so far the only image of his face without a mask, the best image police have. And what they said is, even though it's not quality where you would generate a facial recognition image or something that would bring you to a mug shot, if he had a record, what it is, is, it's an image that if you knew him, a co-worker, a friend, a family member, you would say that's so-and-so.

And that's why they're releasing it right now. They're trying to speed this up by literally crowdsourcing this clue to the general population.

BROWN: Yes, I mean, they clearly need the public's help, as it's now been more than 24 hours with this person, the suspect on the loose.

I mean, where do investigators think he is at this point?

MILLER: Well, so this is a turn in the investigation. The idea that there was some thinking earlier on that he was a New Yorker because of the savvy way he moved through Midtown, stashed an e-bike, navigated through Central Park up to the Upper West Side, was seen on the Upper West Side earlier in the morning before the shooting, carrying a battery for that bike, it suggested a familiarity that suggested maybe he was a New Yorker.

But the idea that he stayed in a hostel up there for two days in a room, a room for four, but there were two other men sleeping in there. So he stayed with two strangers, that may change the leaning towards someone who came from out of town and tried to stay in a place that would have a minimum number of cameras and not cost very much, and the kind of place where people don't notice people because it's very transient.

BROWN: Do you know more about the timeline in terms of when these pictures were taken in this rare moment, as you said, where he put his mask down at the front desk at this hostel before the shooting?

It just strikes me that he's in this picture smiling. MILLER: You know, I don't have the precise timeline, but in that

police were up there yesterday and last night, they did a search of the room. The hotel, of course, cooperated with them and got these -- the hostel, rather, got these images.

It suggests he was probably there Tuesday and Wednesday, but give or take a day. That's something investigators know. We have people up there now talking to them and something we will know soon, but it appears to be very recent.

BROWN: What do police do in this situation, John, when it's been more than 24 hours? He's still on the loose. He could very well be outside of New York City and beyond. I mean, how far did they cast the net at this point, looking for him?

MILLER: Well, I mean, the real net is global, which is he could have gone to Kennedy airport...

BROWN: Yes.

MILLER: ... got on a flight and be anywhere in the world right now, which is another reason to release these photos which show the face.

But I think the current thinking is, he came in from outside New York, stayed at this transient location, did the job he came for, and is probably back where he came from, which is yet another reason to put these photos out, because is he from Minnesota, where UnitedHealth is headquartered? Is he from Montana or Nebraska or somewhere that has nothing to do with this?

Or is he from Pennsylvania? That's the wild card. And this may help spur that in terms of the crowd sourcing from the public.

BROWN: Quickly, John, given all of your experience in law enforcement, how quickly, typically, after pictures like this that are pretty clear of his face come out do you hear from someone who knows the person?

MILLER: Usually, very quickly.

I think of the last couple of serial killer cases that I was involved in, in the NYPD, where we finally got a full face shot with good lighting. And within hours of putting that out, we had people calling and saying, I know who that is.