Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

CNN International: Displaced Syrians Return To Aleppo After Rebel Takeover; CNN Crew Arrives In Rebel-Controlled Aleppo; Ruling Party Calls For Pres. Yoon Suspension. Aired 11a-12p ET

Aired December 06, 2024 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

RAHEL SOLOMON, HOST, "CNN NEWSROOM": Good morning or good evening, depending on where you are watching. I'm Rahel Solomon live in New York.

And ahead on CNN Newsroom, a new uprising is underway in the south of Syria, even as a strong rebel offensive makes big gains in the north. A CNN team is the first Western media to arrive in Aleppo since the rebels took control. Plus, the leader of South Korea's ruling party calls for the President to be suspended after his declaration of martial law shook the nation to its core. And new clues two days into the massive hunt for the gunman who killed UnitedHealthcare CEO. Police are following a growing trail of evidence.

But, we begin in Syria, where the authoritarian government in Damascus is now facing a rebel assault from two fronts.

(VIDEO PLAYING)

SOLOMON: The latest appears to be coming from the south. Rebels in the Daraa province say that they have captured several government posts along the border with Jordan. Footage geo-located by CNN shows them occupying a road between the border and Daraa city. It comes as the rebels are also making further gains in the north, after capturing the key cities of Aleppo and Hama. Firefighters are now advancing, or fighters, I should say, are now advancing towards Homs, Syria's third largest city. Now, if captured, they would effectively separate Damascus from the northwestern coast controlled by President Bashar al-Assad. And you are looking now at live pictures where Syria's Foreign Minister is discussing the crisis with his counterparts from Iran and Iraq.

And a week after the rebels captured Aleppo, formerly displaced Syrians are now returning to their hometown for the first time in years. And some spoke with our Jomana Karadsheh about their experience. She is the first Western journalist to report from the city since the rebel takeover.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We are in Aleppo's old city here by its historic, iconic Citadel, and it's really surreal being in Syria's second city, just days after that lightning offensive by rebel forces where they managed to capture the city in a matter of days. And you look around here, and it seems like business as usual.

Mohammed never left Aleppo, and she says their homes were destroyed. Her children are in Turkey, and she hasn't seen them in years. And she is hoping, now that the city has changed hands, that this means that she could see her children again.

KARADSHEH: (FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

KARADSHEH: Abdul was in Idlib. He has been there since the start of the war, and this is his first time back to the city. He says they trust the rebels who are now returning them to their cities, and he says he is not afraid. Syrians have gone through so much and their resilience.

Just in the last few days, people have painted over this with the colors of the Free Syria flag, and this is something you see around the city, where people are trying to remove any signs of the Assad regime. This is the Basel roundabout named after the deceased brother of the Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. And one of the first things that people did when rebel forces took over the city of Aleppo was topple the statue of Basel, a symbol of the Assad regime.

This is an area where there were fierce battles with regime forces, and since then, in the past few days, there has been an airstrike that killed many people. You can still see the aftermath of that, the blood on the floor here. And speaking to people in the city, this is what they fear. They fear that there will be more Russian and Syrian regime airstrikes that they will be back for the city of Aleppo.

Mohammed, this is your first time back --

MOHAMMED ALI JOUDEH, DISPLACED ALEPPO RESIDENT: Yes.

KARADSHEH: -- to Aleppo in 10 years?

JOUDEH: 10 years. Yes.

KARADSHEH: Did you ever imagine this moment possible?

JOUDEH: No. Actually, no, no. We have in our imagination that we are going to come back. Actually, we had a lot of dreams about getting back to Aleppo, but we didn't actually believe that this moment is going to be true.

[11:05:00]

KARADSHEH: But, are you worried about what might be coming?

JOUDEH: Of course, we are. Here -- all the people here are worried about what's going to happen, because the airstrikes always attacked us.

KARADSHEH: But, you can imagine living --

JOUDEH: Of course.

KARADSHEH: -- here again.

JOUDEH: Of course. Of course. I love my country. I love my -- actually, all of the Syrian place, the Syrian country, our country, we hope it's going to be clear from the Assad regime, all the Syria and not just Aleppo.

KARADSHEH: Speaking to people here, you get this sense of joy and relief to see the regime of Bashar al-Assad gone, but also, there is this apprehension, anxiety, fear of what might be coming. People don't really know what to expect from these rebel forces who have taken over Aleppo. But, most people that we've spoken to say that their biggest fear is what the regime and its allies are going to do, a real fear of going back to the bloody days of the civil war in Syria.

Jomana Karadsheh, CNN, Aleppo, Syria.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SOLOMON: And Jomana and her team also got an exclusive interview with the leader of the main group driving the armed opposition. You can see that later this hour and hear what he said about the rebels' main objective.

For now, let's turn to a dramatic reversal. The leader of South Korea's ruling party now wants the President to be suspended from his duties. The party leader says that he has credible evidence that President Yoon Suk Yeol tried to have key political figures arrested during his short-lived martial law declaration on Tuesday. Mr. Yoon faces growing calls from protesters to resign. Lawmakers are also debating moving forward on a motion to impeach him. That vote could come as early as Saturday.

Let's bring in CNN's Mike Valerio, who has been tracking these developments all week now, and he joins us from Seoul. So, give us a sense, Mike. I mean, obviously the pressure still remains on the President to step down. What more are you learning today?

MIKE VALERIO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, I think we should just stay with what you were describing in the intro, Rahel. Today we heard revelations from the leader of the President's party that there was an arrest list that the President had to arrest his political rivals, including the leader of his own political party, during the brief six hours of martial law, during the what he hoped would be a longer period of martial law. That is a stunning revelation, and yet, conservative lawmakers still are saying that impeachment would be a bridge too far that members want to suspend the powers of the President, but they don't want to impeach the President at the risk of setting a dangerous precedent, from their point of view.

Opposition lawmakers, of course, disagree with that. You're going to meet one of them, as we take you downstairs, Rahel, closer to where his office is, where you can still see scars of martial law.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VALERIO: Days later, you can still see damage inside South Korea's National Assembly. In fact, if we look through this hole, this is where a door was kicked through during clashes with soldiers, and you see tables, chairs, fancy sofas, pieces of office furniture that were used to barricade this door. It would only be a short time later that soldiers left the building.

VALERIO (voice-over): In the aftermath of martial law, a critical question at the heart of South Korea's democracy, will there be enough votes to impeach President Yoon Suk Yeol? For liberal assembly member Cho Kuk, he is confident there will be.

CHO KUK, LEADER, REBUILDING KOREA PARTY: I think more than eight conservative congressmen will join.

VALERIO (voice-over): Cho was one of the people who rushed to the National Assembly and voted to suspend President Yoon's declaration of martial law. We asked if Cho thinks there is a chance President Yoon declares martial law a second time.

KUK: The possibility is getting decreased, is decreasing, but -- because President Yoon is still there. He is not removed.

VALERIO (voice-over): Still on the job is Lee Myung-woo, who helped push back soldiers entering the assembly grounds. He took this video of military helicopters landing nearby. We were blocking the store with a big barricade, he told us. Special Forces soldiers were making their way into the building as I and other officials built a barricade from the inside. The soldiers were barred by the barricade, and the people.

The area was sealed off by law enforcement. Kim Yong-goon (ph) shows us how he helped lawmakers climb over a wall so they could get into the assembly and vote to end martial law. I crouched like this. Four of us moved as one team, Kim said. We decided to help the lawmakers get inside the building. Two of us made a distraction for the police, and I crouched down for the lawmakers to climb over the wall. President Yoon's office released a statement late Thursday, saying he declared martial law within a, quote, "legitimate framework" in order to regulate political activity and confront the forces destroying liberal democracy.

[11:10:00]

As for Cho's message to those across South Korea --

KUK: My fellow citizens, President Yoon will be removed very soon. Do not worry about that. Keep your conviction. Do not hesitate to remove the tyranny, tyrant.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VALERIO: So, Rahel, in terms of what we are watching, what to look out for, tomorrow is when the impeachment vote is scheduled. As of right now, it is set for 05:00 p.m. Saturday local time here in Seoul.

And when we have been talking with members of the opposition throughout the building today, they have been saying, if this vote does not succeed, they are going to try again and again and again, and if the impeachment vote fails, Rahel, expect to see out of South Korea pictures, images and videos of thousands and thousands of people taking to the streets in mass protests, because we have new public polling showing that north of 70 percent of citizens in South Korea think that Yoon has to be impeached and he has got to go. So, we could have a very eventful weekend here in South Korea. Stay tuned for more, Rahel.

SOLOMON: OK. We know you'll be watching it. Mike Valerio live for us there in Seoul. Mike, thank you.

And UnitedHealth Group is laying out fresh security measures for its employees. That's after UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson was shot and killed in a brazen and targeted attack in New York. The manhunt for the gunman now in its third day. Police have released more images of a person of interest. Here he is smiling with his mask down, as he spoke with a hostel employee. We've also learned from multiple law enforcement sources that the suspect had traveled to New York from Atlanta by bus.

Let's bring in our Omar Jimenez, who is in New York with the latest, and joins me now. Omar, it's been this sort of drip, drip of information from police and sources. What are you hearing? What's the latest now?

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. So, on that bus trip, for starters, it was a route that began in Atlanta toward New York. But, what officials are trying to figure out is where exactly in that route this suspect actually got on the bus, since it stopped, of course, multiple times between there and here.

And then, of course, sort of moving forward, I guess you can split this investigation into two different categories. One is trying to find out who this person is. Now, law enforcement believes this person arrived in New York about 10 days before the actual shooting. You see the timeline there, November 24th, checked into a hostel on the Upper West Side of New York. Law enforcement believes that check-in was with a fake New Jersey ID, stayed for a few days, checked out, did, well, we don't really know, then checked back in about a few days before the actual shooting, and that's where it is believed he stayed leading up to the actual shooting.

Now, that picture that you see next to the time minor right there, that is a person law enforcement is describing as a person of interest, wanted for questioning. They didn't go so far as to call this a suspect outright, at least until they can rule out whether he is a suspect or not. What's interesting about this is that this picture was captured at the hostel, and law enforcement, of course, are interviewing people in the area.

According to sources, law enforcement interviewed the female clerk that was working at this hostel, and says that this moment happened because she asked him to lower his mask and that they were flirting back and forth. That might be why you see that big smile on that person's face. But, regardless of that personal moment, it might end up actually being the biggest clue we have so far, if not the biggest clue at the end of the day. So, that's one category of the investigation. Who this person is?

The second category, where is this person? And when you retrace, sort of when this shooting happened. It happened in midtown Manhattan, and then from there, law enforcement traced the path of how this person fled via e-bike, you see it on your screen there, north toward Central Park. And then new video emerged of a person with a hood, dressed similarly to the shooter, who law enforcement believe is the shooter leaving the park on bike about 30 blocks north of the shooting. That's this video that you see here. Again, law enforcement has seen this. They believe this is the gunman. This is back on the Upper West Side in the same neighborhood where the hostel is, where he was initially staying.

But then, at this point, that is the latest public clue that we have. So, from here, where did this person go? We do not know. But also, police are looking through a water bottle that was left behind with some DNA evidence attached to it, a cell phone that was left behind, trying to get into it, all of these pieces, trying to get to some sort of substantial break in the case, to try and answer those two questions, who this person is and where this person is.

SOLOMON: Yeah. And Omar, I mean, circling back to the hostel, we know that this person had apparently been sharing a room with, I believe, two other males.

[11:15:00]

Have authorities been able to figure out? I mean, were these all just completely random and they were just sharing a room, as you often do when you're in a hostel, or whether there was some connection? What do we know about that?

JIMENEZ: Yeah. So, as far as we know, at this point, they do seem to be random people. Now, look, I don't have full purview into what law enforcement may have learned in this. But, as far as the hostel itself, this wasn't just a tiny place of residence with a few rooms here and there. I mean, there are up to 200 rooms in this particular building. So, it's a huge, huge set of rooms, and people that could be coming in and out at various points. This person also used cash to check into the hostel as well.

And so, when you look at how you could potentially trace this person, there aren't a lot of great clues there. And when you talk about people he may have been staying with, I think that's part of why law enforcement is being careful to not quite say this is a suspect just yet based on the masked photo, even if they might have a suspicion of it being so. But, at the very least, this is a person of interest, wanted for questioning, because what he is wearing, some could argue, is a common thing that you might see on a cold New York street, with the hood, potentially having a mask up as well, even though that attire was similar to what the gunman was wearing the morning of the actual shooting, Rahel.

SOLOMON: Yeah, which makes you wonder if police have been able to get sort of any fingerprints from the burner cell phone or the coffee or the water. Still so many questions.

But, Omar Jimenez, good to have you. Thank you.

JIMENEZ: Of course.

SOLOMON: All right. And still ahead for us, Donald Trump is publicly supporting Pete Hegseth, his controversial pick for Secretary of Defense. Coming up, the new message from the President-elect.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOLOMON: Welcome back. We have some breaking news we want to share with you. The jury in the Daniel Penny manslaughter trial say that they are deadlocked. Penny is the former Marine on trial for the chokehold death of a homeless street artist last year. The jury sent a note to the judge saying that they are deadlocked on the manslaughter charge. Now, this comes after more than 16 hours of deliberating. Jordan Neely was reportedly yelling at passengers on a subway train. Penny's lawyers say that their client restrained Neely to try to protect other passengers.

Let's bring in Misty Maris with us now. Misty, always great to have you on days like today. Your read on this. And we should note that it appears that they are deadlocked on one charge, but there is another charge in front of them.

MISTY MARRIS, DEFENSE AND TRIAL ATTORNEY: Yes. So, they're deadlocked on the manslaughter charge. And this, to me, was no surprise, after all of these hours and hours of deliberation and so many jury questions, revisiting substantial components of the evidence as well as jury instructions. So, the jury has now indicated that their deadlocked on the manslaughter charge. That's the highest level charge.

[11:20:00]

It's a reckless disregard for human life. That's the standard.

However, there is another what's called a lesser included offense, a criminally negligent homicide. The jury has not said whether or not that is also at issue, whether or not there is a deadlock on that. Remember, if Penny is found guilty, he can only be found guilty of one of those two charges, not both, because criminally negligent homicide is a lesser offense included in the scope of the manslaughter charge. So, we're going to need more clarification on whether or not the jury is actually deadlocked with respect to both, or if it is just the manslaughter charge, and they're looking for guidance as to how to approach the criminally negligent homicide.

But, something telling about that, if the jurors are deadlocked because some believe Daniel Penny's actions were justified and others do not, that applies to the criminally negligent homicide charge as well, because if he acted in self-defense legally, then he can be found guilty of neither one. So, it's really kind of a -- it's sent to me that the question is more about the mental state of Daniel Penny, whether or not it's reckless or criminally negligent, as opposed to those other self-defense, affirmative defense. But, we'll have to wait and see what's next from the jury.

SOLOMON: And to be clear, the defense for Penny has said that he was trying to protect bystanders. Prosecutors have said that he didn't necessarily intend to kill Neely, but he went too far, and he did show and violated law and human decency.

I want to just sort of set the scene for our viewers, and just give you a sense of the difference in severity of these charges. So, manslaughter, Misty, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that could carry up to 15 years if he was convicted. Negligent -- criminally negligent homicide could come up to four years if convicted. So, these are pretty significant differences in terms of the severity of the crime. Can you help us understand the standard that would have had to be met for, let's say, manslaughter, and then we'll go do criminally negligent homicide.

MARRIS: Absolutely. And to your point, absolutely right. The penalty is significantly different between the two.

So, let's start with manslaughter. Manslaughter is a reckless disregard for human life that caused the death of an individual. It doesn't require someone to act with intent to kill, but -- so, the mental state required to convict is that there was a risk that was so obvious and known and the individual basically just ignored it.

So, you laid out what the prosecution's argument was. Prosecution's argument was that the initial restraint of Jordan Neely justified, but holding him down for that six minutes, at some point, it became criminal, and the way that it applies to the statute is that Daniel Penny is a Marine, trained in martial arts, and that he knew a chokehold could cause asphyxiation, and he just continued to hold Neely for that long period of time, that almost six-minute period of time, causing death, and he just ignored that risk. That's the narrative for manslaughter.

Now, this is pretty nuanced, and interestingly enough, the jury asked for clarification on these two instructions and a re-read yesterday. Criminally negligent homicide, a different standard. It means that there was a risk, a substantial risk that somebody would -- someone's actions would cause death, and the individual failed to recognize it, but that a reasonable person would have recognized that risk. So, think about the jurors in that room kind of parsing this language. On one hand, reckless disregard. And manslaughter means you knew there was a risk and you ignored it simply, and criminally negligent homicide, a criminally negligent standard, which means there was a risk and you should have seen it.

So, think about it, though, Rahel. Think about sitting in that jury room and parsing that language, which is similar to a certain degree, but has vastly different consequences when it comes to conviction. SOLOMON: Yeah. And it sounds like the jury has really been taking

their time trying to understand these two things. As I understand it, they been deliberating for more than 16 hours. Misty stand by, if you might.

I want to bring in our reporter who has been covering this, Gloria Pazmino, who is outside the New York courthouse, and joins us with the details. Gloria, what more can you share with us?

GLORIA PAZMINO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rahel, Misty is absolutely right in discussing just the complexity of these two charges, because this is exactly what this jury has just said, they cannot get to an agreement on. We heard that there was a note, just a few minutes ago, sent to the judge, and the note says that they are requesting instructions from the judge. They say, at this time, we are unable to come to a unanimous verdict on count one. Now, the reason that is significant is because this jury has been instructed that they have to come up with a decision on count one before they can move on to count two.

[11:25:00]

They cannot convict Daniel Penny on both charges. Now, count one, the top charge, it is manslaughter in the second degree. What does that mean? Misty was just talking about it. They are trying to figure out recklessness. What does that mean? They have to figure out whether or not the prosecution in this case proved to them that Daniel Penny was reckless because he knew that there was a risk in putting Jordan Neely in that fatal chokehold, and he simply disregarded that risk.

Now, the prosecution, during this trial and during their closing arguments, focused on the fact that Daniel Penny has the training provided to him by his service in the Marines to know that these kinds of maneuvers are fatal, or can be fatal, and that they are extremely risky. They also showed testimony from people who, during the struggle, told them to let him go, because they were helping to hold Jordan Neely down. They said that that was evidence that he was given a warning, given a sign that it was time to let go, and that he continued to hold them in the chokehold. Now, the defense has said, well, he was justified in doing that. He felt and he was protecting -- he was trying to protect people on the subway car from this threat that Jordan Neely posed.

So, it certainly looks like the jury is stuck on that definition and on that first charge. And it certainly seems at least from what we have watched here throughout the last several days that this is a jury that is very engaged. They have been deliberating since Monday. They have asked to see several pieces of evidence, including video evidence and testimony from the city medical examiner that determined Jordan Neely's cause of death. So, they certainly seem to be taking their time. Now, for whatever it is worth, it is Friday. The weekend is coming up, and perhaps there are some jurors in there who do not want to be back here on Monday, and they want to get this done, but they have to reach a unanimous verdict. Now, just in the last few minutes, we are hearing that the two

parties, the prosecution and the defense, are trying to discuss how to address the note. But, what's most likely going to happen here is that Judge Maxwell Wiley, the judge in this case, is going to reinstruct this jury. It's called an Allen charge, basically tell them, you got to go back and try to get to a unanimous verdict on this first count, because, as I said, they have to get past that first one in order to even consider the second one.

SOLOMON: Well, really great insight into that process. Gloria Pazmino, thank you. Misty Harris, we appreciate you as well. Thank you both.

We're going to take a quick break, and we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOLOMON: Welcome back. You're watching CNN Newsroom. I'm Rahel Solomon live in New York. And here are some of the international headlines we're watching for you today.

French President Emmanuel Macron is vowing to quickly pick a new Prime Minister, and says that he will not step down. This comes after rival lawmakers joined forces on Wednesday to oust his government. Lawmakers on both the left and the right were against the Prime Minister's planned tax increases and budget cuts. Far-right leader Marine Le Pen addressed the French assembly, accusing the President and former Prime Minister of refusing to compromise. President Macron says that Le Pen is just positioning her party for the next presidential election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT (Interpreted): They only think about one thing, about the presidential election, to prepare it, to provoke it, to bring it on. They do that with cynicism, if necessary, and a certain sense of chaos.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOLOMON: Meantime, U.S. President -- President-elect Donald Trump will head to Paris in the coming hours. He will attend the reopening of the Notre Dame Cathedral and have a private meeting with the French President. You may recall this fire moment, this very long handshake the two shared during Trump's first presidency, as they refused to let go there. Renovations, meantime, are finally complete, five years after a fire engulfed the 860-year-old cathedral. These images are from National Geographic, which was given access to the beautifully restored church, and you can see more at natgeo.com.

(VIDEO PLAYING)

SOLOMON: And anti-government protests in Georgia continued into their second week, as EU supporters rallied in front of the country's parliament in Tbilisi on Thursday night. Demonstrators have been turning out nightly to oppose the ruling Georgia Dream party's decision to suspend talks to join the European Union.

And turning back now to our main story in Syria, rebel fighters say that they have captured government outposts in Daraa province, as an offensive against the Syrian army gets underway in the south. It comes a day after rebel forces in northern Syria claimed control of the strategic city of Hama. This drone footage was taken after fierce -- after the fight, the rebels moving into the city and government forces withdrawing. Rebels are now advancing toward another key city, Homs. Now, if they take it, they will effectively drive a wedge between territories controlled by President Bashar al-Assad.

And the leader of the main rebel group says that their ultimate goal is to overthrow the authoritarian government. In an exclusive interview with CNN's Jomana Karadsheh, Abu Mohammad al-Jolani spoke about the rebels' objectives and what they've accomplished so far.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARADSHEH: Taking Hama after taking Aleppo, I mean, how significant is this for you right now?

ABU MOHAMMAD AL-JOLANI, LEADER OF HAYAT TAHRIR AL-SHAM (HTS) (Interpreted): From a military perspective, what comes after Hama will not be the same as what came before. However, I prefer not to be overly optimistic during the battle. I like to remain cautious and vigilant to avoid complacency, and ensure we don't suffer losses while believing we are safe.

KARADSHEH: What comes after this? What's after Hama?

AL-JOLANI (Interpreted): The course of the battle. As for the secrets of the battle, let's leave them to the unfolding events. You will witness them in reality, which is better than discussing them now.

KARADSHEH: In a matter of days, you have taken major cities. What's changed? How are you able to do this now?

AL-JOLANI (Interpreted): In recent years, there has been a unification of internal opinions and the establishment of institutional structures within the liberated areas of Syria. This institutionalization included the restructuring within military factions. They entered unified training camps and developed a sense of discipline. This discipline allowed them, with God's guidance, to engage in a battle in an organized manner. The progress and execution of plans have been swift, with clear communication and adherence to commands. They stop where they should stop and withdraw where they should withdraw. The revolution has transitioned from chaos and randomness to a state of order, both in civil and institutional matters and in military operations alike.

KARADSHEH: Some believe this is happening because the allies of the Assad regime, the Russians, Hezbollah, Iran, that they are weakened. They are preoccupied with other wars, and this is why we are seeing this happen right now, and the Syrian regime itself weakened.

[11:35:00]

Is this what is happening right now? Is this why you chose to this offensive right now?

AL-JOLANI (Interpreted): As you know, we are still in the midst of the battle, and discussing such details at this time is not wise.

KARADSHEH: But, you faced more of a resistance in Hama than you did in Aleppo. What do you think happened? Why did the regime withdraw like it did?

AL-JOLANI (Interpreted): The seeds of the regime's defeat have always been within it. It has been effectively dead since that time. However, the Iranians attempted to revive the regime, buying it time, and later, the Russians also tried to prop it up. But, the truth remains. This regime is dead.

KARADSHEH: In the last year, it seemed like Bashar al-Assad survived the war. He was welcomed back into the Arab fall and on the world stage.

AL-JOLANI (Interpreted): The Arab countries' evaluation of the situation was mistaken. Some Arab countries tried to separate the regime from Iran's project. This is impossible. Even if the regime wanted this, it can't implement it. It's a subservient relationship. Iran can disengage from the regime, but the regime can't. To describe the regime as victorious is deeply unjust to the many children, people, women subjected to rape in prisons, displaced individuals scattered across the world, those drowning in the seas and those living in tents on the borders of other countries. What kind of victory are we talking about?

KARADSHEH: In the past, you have talked about strict Islamic rule. Is that still the plan?

AL-JOLANI (Interpreted): People who fear Islamic governance either have seen incorrect implementations of it or do not understand it properly. We are talking about something that aligns with the traditions and nature of the region. The most important thing is to build institutions. We are not talking about rule by individuals or personal whims. It's about institutional governance. Syria deserves a governing system that is institutional, not one where a single ruler makes arbitrary decisions.

KARADSHEH: Many Syrians are happy and will be happy to see the end of the Assad regime, but they're also worried about what HTS rule would mean, including minorities.

AL-JOLANI (Interpreted): No one has the right to erase another group. These sects have co-existed in this region for hundreds of years, and no one has the right to eliminate them. There must be a legal framework that protects and ensures the rights of all, not a system that serves only one sect, as Assad's regime has done. KARADSHEH: Listening to you speaking, you've gone through quite the

transformation. Once an al-Qaeda leader, your group has had affiliations with al-Qaeda, with ISIS, and now you are projecting this image of a moderate leader and a moderate group. What is HTS right now?

AL-JOLANI (Interpreted): Hayat Tahrir al-Sham is one of the factions in the region, just like all the others. Now we're talking about a larger project. We're talking about building Syria. Hayat Tahrir al- Sham is merely one detail of this dialog, and it may dissolve at any time. It's not an end in itself, but a means to perform a task confronting this regime. Once that task is complete, it will transition to a state of governance, institutions and so on.

I believe that everyone in life goes through phases and experiences, and these experiences naturally increase a person's awareness. A person in their 20s will have a different personality than someone in their 30s or 40s, and certainly someone in their 50s.

KARADSHEH: So, are those days behind you?

AL-JOLANI (Interpreted): Sometimes, it's essential to adjust to reality, and because someone who rigidly clings to certain ideas and principles without flexibility cannot effectively lead societies or navigate complex conflicts like the one happening in Syria.

KARADSHEH: People listening to this are going to wonder why they should believe you. You are still a specially designated global terrorist by the United States with a $10 million bounty on your head. Your group is a prescribed terrorist organization by the United States, by the UN, by the EU and others.

AL-JOLANI (Interpreted): I say to people, don't judge by words, but by actions. I believe the reality speaks for itself. These classifications are primarily political and at the same time wrong. I define a terrorist as someone who intentionally kills civilians, harms innocence or displaces people.

[11:40:00]

If we're being honest, many of the wars waged by major powers in Arab Muslim and even non-Muslim countries have involved the deliberate killing of thousands, the destruction of homes, and the displacement of millions. Even the regime itself is guilty of such actions.

KARADSHEH: But, the U.S. and others would say is that you were parts of groups that did exactly that.

AL-JOLANI (Interpreted): Personally, I have not done these things. The situation must be understood in its historical context. There was a massive war in Iraq that deeply stirred people's emotions, prompting many to go there. The circumstances of that war led people to various places, and my path led me to one of those locations.

Given my level of awareness and my young age at the time, my actions evolved to where I am today. I didn't go to Iraq with those intentions. I went to defend the Iraqi people. When I returned to Syria, I didn't want to bring what happened in Iraq into Syria. That's why there were disagreements between us and ISIS.

KARADSHEH: People would be wondering why you agreed to speak with us.

AL-JOLANI (Interpreted): What is happening in Syria is significant for the entire world. This event has positive repercussions globally, because under the regime's rule, Syria became a source of concern and trouble for everyone. Stabilizing Syria will bring many people back. Today, in the liberated areas, about one third of the population lives in camps, approximately 1.5 million people. I believe we can soon reach a point where there are no camps.

With the rehabilitation of the liberated areas, people will return to their homes. Many refugees in Turkey will likely return, as will a significant number of refugees in Lebanon and Jordan. Even refugees in Europe may return to rebuild their country.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SOLOMON: Our thanks to Jomana Karadsheh for that report.

And still ahead, U.S. job growth bounced back in November. Coming up, what the numbers mean, after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOLOMON: Welcome back. Senior White House aides are considering the possibility of President Joe Biden issuing preemptive pardons for people who may be targeted by Donald Trump. The President-elect and his supporters have openly talked about prosecuting people such as Congressman Adam Schiff, former Congresswoman Liz Cheney and Special Counsel Jack Smith. He is the one, of course, who brought federal charges against Trump. However, giving pardons to people before charges have been filed would be controversial, and a source says that Trump's legal team believes that such a move by Mr. Biden could set a precedent that Trump or other future presidents could ultimately copy.

And President-elect Donald Trump says that he is not backing down from his choice for Secretary of Defense. Pete Hegseth has come under scrutiny for allegations that he abused alcohol and that he sexually assaulted a woman, all of which has appeared to jeopardize his chances of getting confirmed.

[11:45:00]

Well, now Trump is going public with his continued support for Hegseth. In a message on Truth Social, Trump posted that Hegseth has more support than the media reports. He also said that Hegseth is a winner and nothing can be done to change that.

The latest U.S. jobs report is out, and the U.S. economy added 227,000 jobs in November. That is a massive rebound after hurricanes and striking workers impacted October's numbers. The unemployment rate did take up to 4.2 percent from 4.1 percent. So, that was a slight uptick. Let's bring in Julia Pollak, who is the Chief Economist at

ZipRecruiter, and joins us now from Los Angeles. Julia, great to have you. Let's talk about, first, your topline reaction to this report, because you say the most important thing to watch is actually not the headline number, but where or how broadly jobs are being added. What do you see in this report?

JULIA POLLAK, CHIEF ECONOMIST, ZIPRECRUITER: Well, first on that topline number, I don't think we should be misled by the seemingly solid 227,000 payroll gain. We knew going in that this report would overstate the health of the labor market. It doesn't show a rebound in new hiring. It simply shows workers coming back following strikes and storms.

If you average over the last two months, which I think is the more informative thing to do, you'll see that the pace of job gains is just 132,000 a month, which is down from 159,000 a month in the third quarter. And those job gains are still very, very narrowly concentrated in only about half of the labor market, and healthcare, government, leisure and hospitality and construction.

SOLOMON: Yeah. And so then, what does that say, if most of these, or the bulk of these, or all of these job gains are being concentrated in a few industries, what does that tell us about the other industries?

POLLAK: Well, it tells us two things. One is that those topline figures sort of overstate the health of the labor market and don't capture the experience of job seekers and workers in the other half of the labor market. The other thing is that those sectors that have seen unusually rapid job gains may not sustain that pace going forward, and job openings and online job postings in those categories are now declining, and that would suggest that the whole labor market could slow down even more.

SOLOMON: So, how would you, if you were at a cocktail party, Julia, and you had to try to describe the labor market in a grade, or very casually to someone, how would you define this labor market or grade this labor market?

POLLAK: So, I would say the Federal Reserve slammed the brakes and raised interest rates, and those rates are still restrictive. And so, even as they sort of ease their foot off the pedal, they haven't done so sufficiently to stabilize the labor market or stimulate it. That said, there are lots of tailwinds building behind this labor market. The stock market is doing well. Workers are getting real wage gains. And yes, those rate cuts should, at some point, boost affordability enough when it comes to vehicles and houses to stimulate activity in those markets, which will boost hiring yet again.

SOLOMON: I know a lot of people are certainly looking for some affordability in the housing market, for sure, but also the auto market. So, for those, Julia, trying to understand how this jobs report impacts the Fed's next meeting, December 18th what does that mean? I mean, do you still see a rate cut on the table? What do you see? POLLAK: So, all else equal, I think a slowing and narrowing labor

market would encourage the Fed to cut rates yet again. Of course, the last few inflation reports have been a little hotter than hoped for, and they've made it a little less clear that that will happen. I still think it's more likely or not that we'll see a cut at the next meeting, but how many we get in the rest -- in 2025, that is still uncertain. At one point, markets for pricing in a cut at every meeting, six cuts in the next few meetings. That seems unlikely now.

SOLOMON: Yeah. We do have another inflation report next week before the next Fed meeting. So, perhaps we'll get a better sense of the inflation picture then.

Lastly, as we head into the end of this year and start to look ahead to 2025, what are you watching, Julia? I mean, what's the labor outlook and the economic outlook look, from your vantage point?

POLLAK: So, I do think there are many reasons to be bullish on, an acceleration in job gains in the coming year, and in those gains broadening out again as interest rates fall and as people feel more confident, as people feel less financial pressure, and those real wage gains finally bring them back up to the pre-pandemic wage growth trend and make them feel sort of whole again.

SOLOMON: Here is hoping. 2025 is right around the corner. Julia Pollak, great to have you. She is the Chief Economist at ZipRecruiter. Thank you for the time today.

POLLAK: Thanks, Rahel.

SOLOMON: Yep. All right. And coming up, one more thing, and not just from us, but from Taylor Swift as well. Fans are excited and anticipating her performance on stage this week, but some may be feeling a bit disappointed as well. We'll explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOLOMON: Welcome back. We have some breaking news that we want to share with you in the death of the UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. We are just getting some new information from our correspondent, John Miller, our chief foreign law enforcement source, telling us that officials now believe that they have recovered possible DNA evidence perhaps from the person of interest or the shooter that they have been looking for. This is the person of interest that they have at least put his photo out so far. They have not gone so far as to call him a suspect.

But, here is what we do know. Police had already disclosed that they had a water bottle, that they had a burner phone which they believed might have DNA, might have some sort of traceable, identifying sort of material, and perhaps that is what is now connected to this new information, again, that we are getting from our John Miller, that the medical examiner is now testing possible DNA evidence in the killing.

Just to remind you of where we're coming from, this was Wednesday morning, at about 06:45 that this UnitedHealthcare CEO, the CEO of a health insurance company, was walking across the street from his hotel to another hotel where a conference was happening that his company was hosting.

Police say they have on surveillance, and the surveillance has been publicly released, they have their suspect, their person, standing outside, lying in wait. They say they know he had been waiting at least five minutes, waiting for their -- waiting for his target, reportedly, according to police, in sub-freezing temperatures. They have video evidence of their suspect, their person. This is a person of interest who you're seeing, but they have video evidence of their suspect, shooting Brian Thompson from behind at least twice, once in the back and then once in the calf, and then running off, first on foot, then on an e-bike, and then ultimately into Central Park.

We know that they have been searching a hostel, I believe, on the Upper West Side. That is actually where this photo has been taken and then released. This was released about 24 hours ago. The person here, they say, used an ID that was actually a fake ID and from New Jersey, and used cash. We know that the person got on a bus that originated in Atlanta. They don't know that this person actually got on in Atlanta, but it started in Atlanta, ended in New York, and he had been in the city for a few days before, they believe, the crime had been committed.

But, again, I just want to recap you, if you were just joining us, this breaking news that is coming into us from our John Miller, that the medical examiner now testing DNA evidence in the CEO's murder. This would be the closest it appears they have gotten to trying to identify who they believe is responsible for the death of Brian Thompson. Again, if you are looking at your screen, this is the person of interest, is what police are calling this person, who they are looking for, for questioning and more understanding about what exactly happened Wednesday morning.

[11:55:00]

But, again, we're going to continue to follow the story here on CNN.

We appreciate you being with us for the hour. I'm Rahel Solomon live in New York. Stick with CNN. One World is coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)