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Police Release Images Of "Person Of Interest" In CEO Shooting; Jury Deadlocked On Manslaughter Count In Subway Chokehold Trial; RFK Jr. Message On Food Policy Resonating On Capitol Hill. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired December 06, 2024 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN ANCHOR: Congratulations, Brian. And -- and the whole team there that, you know, Pam, they've worked so hard.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. The whole team. Ben, who just had baby --

ACOSTA: -- the last several weeks, too, since the election and so on. And Ben, who's had a baby, I mean, it's just the list goes on and on. But we have a great team here. And --

BROWN: We really do.

ACOSTA: -- I know they'll -- they'll be taking care of you the next hour.

BROWN: We would not be able to do what we do without our team. And that is for certain. We are just a small little part. And they're really the ones who -- who give us the support and the foundation to bring the show to you. Jim, thanks so much.

ACOSTA: Absolutely.

BROWN: Have a great weekend.

ACOSTA: You got it. You, too.

BROWN: And good morning to everyone. You are live in the CNN Newsroom. I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. We're going to start with this manhunt that's still underway. The man shoots and kills a powerful CEO in broad daylight in arguably the most surveilled city in the nation. How has he managed to evade police for more than 48 hours? CNN has news in Manhattan.

Plus, when President-elect Trump first tapped RFK Jr. to be his health secretary, medical professionals were outraged. But now some nutritionists and farming industry advocates say, and by the way, lawmakers on both sides of the aisle are coming together and around his idea and say, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

And later, gay couples are rushing to get married, concerned that their rights and benefits could be threatened under Donald Trump. We're going to speak to a couple who is, quote, terrified about their future and what they're doing about it.

A fake I.D. and a flirtatious moment at a New York City hostel, just two developments officials are seizing on this morning as the manhunt continues for the suspect in the shooting of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Take a look here. I'm sure you've seen it by now. This -- these images showing the person of interest as he checked into a New York City hostel days before the shooting happened.

Law enforcement sources tell CNN, he paid in cash and used a New Jersey driver's license. But that license traced back to nothing because it was a fake. Omar Jimenez joins us now. So, Omar, sources are telling us that this man traveled several days before the shooting. Tell us more.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So travel by bus in a route that -- that started in Atlanta but it's unclear when this person actually got on the bus, since there are many stops between there and here. But as you mentioned, well, the big clue that comes from that is that this suspect allegedly got here 10 days before the actual shooting. And then went to the upper west side of Manhattan to check into a hostel where he stayed for a few days, briefly checked out, then checked back in using that fake New Jersey I.D.

And that's where this person was believed to have been staying in the lead up to the actual shooting. But then, of course, police released the images that you were just showing a few seconds ago of a person of interest they say is wanted for questioning. They didn't quite go so far to say this is the suspect just yet. But a person of interest is this is an unmasked photo that law enforcement has been doing.

Sources telling CNN that this actually this moment actually happened to him, to remove the mask as they were flirting. And then, of course, he's smiling back at her. So it's an authentic moment back and forth, but could end up being one of the biggest clues, if not the biggest one that we've seen so far.

So that goes to the question of who this person may be. But, of course, the second question is, where could this person be? When you trade -- when you retrace the steps a little bit and go back to where the shooting happened, it happened in Midtown Manhattan. And then from there, law enforcement traced or tracked the route of where this person went north from that Midtown Manhattan spot toward Central Park.

And then from Central Park, we are -- you see this video that eventually comes out on 85th Street, so about 30 blocks north of where the shooting actually happened. And this is where police believe this is in the outskirts of the park. So in theory, there is a path where you could go to the power of the park. They have not found the gray backpack that the shooter was seen wearing at the shooting scene. They do not know what may have been inside.

And here you see the route from sort of Midtown Manhattan heading up toward the park. And then at the scene itself, police are also looking at a water bottle that they say has a fingerprint on it, though it appears law enforcement sources tell CNN that it was smudged. So the details might be a little bit harder to be conclusive.

But then on top of that, they're also looking at a cell phone that was left at the scene as well to see if there are any clues. So bottom line, these are all the bits and pieces that investigators are trying to comb through to get towards some sort of substantive answer here. Again, on the first question of who this person is, but then, of course, the more pertinent one as well is where this person is.

BROWN: Yes, I mean, that manhunt ongoing right now, and there is a sense of urgency. The more time that lapses, the harder it is to find this person. Omar Jimenez, thank you.

[11:05:04]

And with us now is Katherine Schweit, former senior FBI official who specializes in people who carry out targeted violence. So I would love your insight on what Omar just laid out there, that the suspect was in New York City for a week and a half and, you know, took a bus, a lengthy bus ride from Atlanta to New York City, then checked into a hostel, checked out, checked back in. What do you make of all of this?

KATHERINE SCHWEIT, FORMER SENIOR FBI OFFICIAL: It's pretty clear that as we see in anybody who does targeted violence, their -- their concept is a trajectory towards violence. So they start with this idea that I'm going to commit this violent act, and then I have to plan and I have to prepare for it before I commit it. And the planning and the preparation, which is where we can see all their actions visible across people around them, people who don't realize what they're seeing, this planning and preparing, that's what we saw when he came in early.

He knew, obviously, that this person was going to be there, that was his target. And so he didn't necessarily know his details, his route to get to the guy, his route to get away from the guy. And that is all that planning and preparation. He wanted to be sure. When somebody commits targeted violence, they want to be sure that they're in control of the whole situation.

And he was in charge of the whole situation in his mind. And so that's why he had to have plenty of time ahead of time to know where I can go, where I can come away. But we'll see. That picture is -- I've seen -- I've seen way worse bank robbery pictures where we've caught the bank robber based on that picture.

BROWN: Yes. I mean, John Miller yesterday was saying on the show that, you know, typically when you put a picture out like this, the public comes forward quickly, right? And that is exactly what police need because they're trying to find this person. He could be anywhere. And again, that picture is a person of interest, right?

But there's one moment that he clearly didn't plan for. And that was the flirtation moment, as they're calling it.

SCHWEIT: The weakness. The weakness.

BROWN: Yes. Exactly. The weakness where he pulled down his mask -- SCHWEIT: Right.

BROWN: -- and -- and smiled. And that really does seem to be pivotal. I mean, you can just envision, as investigators, when they found that, they were probably like, oh, my gosh, thank goodness we have this.

SCHWEIT: Oh, it was a very human moment for him. It was a very personal moment where he's close, very close proximity, closer than we are, and smiles because she asks him to remove the mask. And it's just for a second. And he doesn't think about it because, you know, he's not a he's not a professional killer. He's not -- this isn't his whole lifestyle, right?

He doesn't have all the -- all the I'm going to discipline for this. He's just a guy. And whatever his circumstances are, I think that's what we have to -- no matter what the motivation is, you have to step back and think he's just a person who planned out what he was going to do to commit this violent act.

And we have people who do that in this country. Sadly, we have a lot of people who do that in this country over time. And, you know, if -- if people didn't make mistakes like that, we wouldn't have people in prison.

BROWN: Yes.

SCHWEIT: Criminals make mistakes.

BROWN: I'm just curious. You've done so much research on this. You know, he got to New York City a week and a half in advance, we were just talking about that. And how frequent or often it is that someone like this person who is not a professional killer, like you said, actually follows through on the act and doesn't chicken out?

SCHWEIT: You know, I don't -- I mean, I think we don't know that, right?

BROWN: Yes.

SCHWEIT: How -- how -- what kind of research do we have on what didn't happen? We have a research. I think the best research that we actually have is from the FBI's behavioral team down at Quantico that shows us that when they do commit the act and probably the most important thing for -- for -- for the public to know right now is that in 80 to 90 percent of the time, family members and friends saw it beforehand, heard words out of this person beforehand about how they were going to take care of this.

BROWN: Yes. And you mentioned the FBI has, you know, agents that are dedicated to this. You used to be one of them. What behaviors that this person exhibited before opening fire are they looking at in this case, you think, to try to figure out motivation and who this person is?

SCHWEIT: Yes, if I was talking to the neighbors and I was talking to the friends and family, I would say you may not have thought about it before, but you should think about now. What we saw from our research and, you know, Secret Service has done research on this, too. And of course, NYPD has an amazing intelligence team. What we know is that the individual, they begin to degrade emotionally and mentally. And so their communications thin out.

They don't -- they don't think as thoroughly. They're thinking -- they're very busy thinking about this other act they're going to do. So they're not -- their work performance is reduced. And we literally see that in the research, that their work performance degrades, their family relationships degrade, their interpersonal relationships just with their friends and family. So that's one thing where you see somebody who's pulled away, that's a sign, right? That's part of the sign.

It's not just somebody who's aggressive or violent. But in addition to that, it's -- there's something we call leakage -- it's -- which we've talked about before. But leakage is when you literally say words. And 80 percent of the people say something to someone, which is hard to believe. But 80 percent of the adults --

[11:10:16]

BROWN: Eighty percent. Wow.

SCHWEIT: -- say something to someone and that tell us that -- where they say, I'm going to take care of this. Other people didn't take care of this. I let other people try to take care of this. And now they're not going to take care of it. So I'm going to take care of it or words to that effect.

BROWN: Wow.

SCHWEIT: There are words out there. And when you stop and think back, I would just say friends and family. Law enforcement is not the one who's going to have this guy on the radar. Friends and family and neighbors are.

BROWN: Important message for sure. Katherine Schweit, thank you.

And still ahead, RFK Jr.'s views on vaccines, along with his conspiracy theories, have long outraged some health officials. But now some of his plans to get Americans to change their diet may be going mainstream.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:15:37]

BROWN: Breaking news, the jury and the Daniel Penny manslaughter trial says it is deadlocked on the manslaughter charge. Penny is on trial in the chokehold death of Jordan Neely on the New York City subway last spring. Joey Jackson is here with us to get your reaction. Several days, Joey, and now a deadlock on this charge.

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Pamela, it's not a surprise. I think there's a lot to consider. And remember, these cases, they're tough. There are two different narratives. On the one hand, you have the prosecution who's indicating that there was at the very least recklessness here. And what is recklessness? The standard is that you consciously disregard the risk of your behavior.

What risk? If you have your hand or your arm around someone's neck, would it not be probable or possible that they would die? That's the one narrative. On the other hand, you have the defense saying it was certainly necessary that Jordan Neely represented a danger. The danger was immediate and that there needed to be activity taken.

I think the other issue that's hanging them off is there's a causation issue. What does that mean in English? There was differing testimony from the medical examiner who the prosecution had that said, look, it was because of that chokehold that there was the death. Not so fast, said the defense.

It wasn't because of the chokehold. There was not enough pressure that was applied, said the defense. It was a combination of factors, schizophrenia, sickle cell anemia and anemia and certain mental maladies that led to a lack of oxidation. So both on causation, that's a problem and both on the issue of whether it was necessary was a problem. So it's not surprising.

BROWN: And also, I mean, my understanding is he was facing one count of second degree manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide, negligent homicide as well. They're just deadlocked on the second degree manslaughter. But we don't know about the other charge, right?

JACKSON: Well, here's the issue. The -- the bigger charges we know is the manslaughter charge. I mean, let's be clear. Both are significant. The manslaughter charge carries a maximum of 15 years in jail. And so certainly that's worth the bulk of this conversation. At the same time, criminally negligent homicide, a felony, very significant, but that's an e-felony. And so you don't -- you don't really have the exposure. You have exposure up to four years. Well, you get it if there was a conviction on that. And so it's really the manslaughter charge that is the big enchilada here. And that's what the jury is really weighing.

BROWN: Gloria Pazmino is going to join us now. She is right outside of the courthouse. What can you tell us, Gloria?

GLORIA PAZMINO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, I just want to read you the note directly from the jury. They just sent it out in the last few minutes. My colleague Lauren del Valle is inside that courtroom and the jury has written the following -- the following note. We, the jury request instructions from Judge Wiley at this time. We are unable to come to a unanimous verdict on count one, manslaughter in the second degree.

Why is this significant? You were just discussing the charges. Manslaughter in the second degree is the top charge. The jury has to consider that charge first before deciding whether or not they can move on to the second. They cannot convict Penny on both charges. That's the instructions that they have been given. So depending on how you're looking at this, you could sort of guess that maybe this is good for the defense and or good for the prosecution.

It could really cut both ways at this time. The fact that the jury is saying we cannot decide on this first count means that they are still stuck on it. They have to decide on that count first. Now we are hearing from my colleague inside the -- the news -- the courtroom, I should say, that the parties are now deciding how to address it. Now, there's a few things that can happen here.

The judge most likely is going to instruct this jury to go back into deliberations once again. It's possible he issues that instructions or those instructions all over again. Another thing to keep in mind here, Pamela, it is Friday. They have only been deliberating for about a week. But there is -- there could be a sense among the jury that they don't want to be back here on Monday. And that's something just to keep in mind as they are deliberating.

[11:20:02]

So we'll see what happens in the next few minutes here. What kind of instructions they receive from Judge Wiley. But they have to get to an agreement on that top charge. So it is really interesting, the top charge manslaughter in the second degree. They're essentially looking at the question of recklessness. That was a big part of the prosecution.

Was Daniel Penny reckless when he put Jordan Neely in that fatal chokehold? And the legal definition of that is that Daniel Penny knew that there was a risk by putting Jordan Neely in that chokehold. And he simply disregarded it. Now, the prosecution spent a lot of time talking about the Marine training that Daniel Penny has, the fact that he should have known that chokeholds could be deadly.

But the defense, remember, said that he was justified in his actions because he was trying to protect people on that subway car who were afraid of Jordan Neely. Pam?

BROWN: All right. Gloria Pazmino, Joey Jackson, thank you. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:26:02]

BROWN: Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s selection to the nation's top health posts sent shockwaves through the public health world. There are deep concerns about his vaccine skepticism and conspiracies and his just overall embrace of conspiracy theories. But some of his views, especially on food safety and regulating chemicals in food, have resonated not only with health experts but also lawmakers on both sides of the aisle. Senator Bernie Sanders this week echoed that fight against the food and beverage industry during a Senate hearing. Here's what he said to the commissioner of the FDA.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): What is the reason that our kids are unhealthy? What role does this industry play? Are you prepared to tell us that this committee, this Congress needs to take on the food and beverage industry whose greed is destroying the health of millions of people?

DR. ROBERT CALIFF, COMMISSIONER OF U.S. FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION: Well, I'm not going to cascade the people that work in the food and beverage industry.

SANDERS: You're not?

CALIFF: No.

SANDERS: That is your job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Joining us now is Marion Nestle, a nutrition professor at New York University and CNN medical correspondent Meg Tirrell. And it was interesting, Marion, to kick it off with you, you know, Bernie Sanders pointed to the fact that one in five kids in the U.S. are obese, according to the CDC. What do you make of his exchange with the FDA commissioner that we just played?

MARION NESTLE, NUTRITION PROFESSOR AT NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: Well, I just think it's incredible that at last we're pushing the FDA to take on chronic disease as one of the issues that it deals with. I mean 75 percent of American adults are overweight or obese and at risk for chronic disease. It's the leading cause of death and disability among Americans.

And the government hasn't been doing anything about it. There's no national program to try to prevent chronic disease because if you did have a national program, you would have to take on the food industry. And nobody wants to do that.

BROWN: And to be clear for our viewers -- yes, and you've been fighting -- you've been fighting the food industry. You've been trying to raise the alarm on this for decades. But it's not just Democrats, we should point out, who are riled up about this. Yesterday in that Senate Health Committee hearing, Senator Tommy Tuberville, a Republican, questioned the FDA chair about the dye Red 3, such as soda. You can be found, I should say, in soda, soft candy, and juice. California has already banned it. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TOMMY TUBERVILLE (R-AL): Red 3 has been known to cause cancer in cosmetics, but we still allow it to be put in our food. I don't understand that.

JIM JONES, DEPUTY COMMISSIONER, HUMAN FOOD PROGRAM, FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION: So Red 3, we have a petition in front of us to revoke the authorization for it, and we are hopeful that within the next few weeks we will be acting on that petition.

TUBERVILLE: You know, if we know something's deadly for anybody that ingests it, how -- how do we continue to just study that and not say, hey, enough's enough?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Right. And we just heard there from the official that, yes, he did confirm that Red 3 can cause cancer in animals. He talked about the studies behind that. Pretty stunning, Marion, that -- that exchange right there and the FDA's acknowledgement.

NESTLE: Well, the difficulty is that we're Americans. We wait until problems occur before we do anything about them. In Europe, where these dyes are banned, or at least they have to have warning labels on them, they use the precautionary principle, which says if there's any question about the safety, they don't go into the food supply. We do it the opposite way.

[11:29:40]

We put them in the food supply and then wait and see if people get sick, and then we do something about it. And I have to say, to the FDA's credit, the difficulty here is that it's very, very difficult to do research on food dyes in people. You can't lock people up and feed some of them food dyes and some of them not. So the FDA has a problem in doing science-based regulation.