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Rebels Claim Control of Damascus, Assad's Whereabouts Unknown; U.S. President Joe Biden and His Team Closely Monitoring Developments in Syria; Rebels Declare Damascus Free. Aired 3-4a ET

Aired December 08, 2024 - 03:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[03:00:00]

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN ANCHOR: Well, hello and welcome. I'm Becky Anderson. Time here is midday, 12:00 here in Abu Dhabi. And we begin with breaking news in Syria, where 50 years of authoritarian rule by the Assad family has crumbled in the face of a lightning fast rebel offensive. It's over. In a statement carried on state T.V., the rebels declared they have, quote, liberated the capital, Damascus, claiming President Bashar al-Assad has been overthrown.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With the help of God, the city of Damascus was liberated and the regime of the tyrant, Bashar al-Assad was toppled. All prisoners from the prisons of the regime were liberated. The operations center of Fateh Damascus ask all brothers, jihadists, and citizens to preserve all the belongings of the Syrian state. Long live free Syria.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: And in this video, you see Prime Minister Mohammad Ghazi al-Jalali being escorted by rebels in Damascus on Sunday. They purportedly took him to a hotel to hand him over to government authority. The prime minister had said earlier that the government is ready to, quote, cooperate with any leadership, the people choose.

Well, rebels were seen celebrating on the grounds of the Syrian presidential palace. They say they are searching for Assad, who has not been seen or heard of now for some days. Rebels have been sweeping through the country since launching this offensive last week. They claim to have captured four cities in one day before reaching Damascus, the capital in the south.

Well, Syrians were seen tearing down and setting fire to posters of Assad. Rebels say senior Assad regime officials are preparing to defect in the capital.

Well, Correspondent Paula Hancocks monitoring events, she joins me now from Abu Dhabi. What is the very latest that we have from the ground, Paula? PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Becky, there will be millions around Syria today who will be very pleased, will be celebrating that this has happened. There will also be caution, though, as to what comes next.

Now, we know that the rebels themselves, they have taken over the television building. We saw that statement saying that they have liberated Damascus, giving a statement saying to all those around the world that free Syria is back, saying that the regime of the tyrant, Bashar al-Assad, has been toppled.

Now, we also know that they have been taking up positions in key strategic places throughout the capital. We know that they have been searching for Bashar al-Assad himself. We understand from a source familiar with this situation that the rebels have been questioning some senior military officials, some intelligence officials trying to find out exactly where he is. There are many reports about where he may be at this point, but he certainly has not been heard from since rebels started to enter into the capital.

And we also know that that the rebels have been what they say, liberating a certain number of prisons. There were many political prisoners inside these prisons, in the Sednayah military prison just north of Damascus, a very famous, infamous prison, which Amnesty several years ago called the human slaughterhouse. These prisons have now been opened up, we understand, by the rebels. They are releasing those inside.

So, there will certainly be many who are celebrating. We have seen those celebrations on the street. We have seen some of the statues of Bashar al-Assad, of his father as well, who was a brutal dictator and president before him, being toppled.

[03:05:03]

So, it is a very different Syria that we are looking at today, that people will be coming to terms with. But, of course, there are many questions about what comes next. Becky?

ANDERSON: Paula, great. Thank you very much, indeed, a very, very, very busy day.

Here with me now is Mina Al-Oraibi. She's the editor-in-chief of the National or Global News Organization based here in Abu Dhabi. What do you make of what is what is unfolding?

MINA AL-ORAIBI, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE NATIONAL: Incredibly historic. It's a moment that is deeply personal for every Syrian. So, for those who are displaced inside their own country or refugees, there are at least half of the population of Syria got displaced from its homes. And then there are those who stayed in areas under the control of the regime and those who supported Bashar al-Assad. For all of them, it's either a moment of hope or fear or a mix of both.

And, politically, this is huge. It is 61 years of Ba'ath rule in Syria and 54 years of Assad family rule in Syria. And so how Syria goes forward from here is not only deeply important for Syrians and what it means for the Syrian state, but for the entire region. And, of course, when we put the developments in Syria over the last week or so, within the context of the last 14 months, the fact that Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah, is no longer here, the fact that Iran is on a back foot in Syria and Lebanon, but also the fact that there is a terrible raging war in Gaza and that the wounds of the Palestinians are not to be forgotten or ignored.

And so I think putting it in that context is important geopolitically and regionally, but for Syrians, it's deeply personal today.

ANDERSON: Let's start, and you started in Syria, and rightly so, and you've talked about how deeply personal this is for Syrians, both those who are there and those who are currently displaced outside of the country. Millions of refugees, of course, who will be wondering, you know, what their next move is at this point. Many, I'm hearing, are already intending to get back to Syria as quickly as possible. We don't know, though, what Syria will look like in the days and weeks to come.

So, let's talk about this opposition. Who are they? Who are they backed by? And what's their intention at this point?

AL-ORAIBI: Well, there are oppositions, right? So, the fragmentation of the Syrian opposition, back from 2011, 2012, hard to believe, over a decade ago, the different groupings that emerged, and until this moment, there were certain opposition groups that remained political, so, you know, they're either based in Washington or in Paris, but they really lost any influence, especially in the last decade. And then there are the armed groups. And, of course, there is Hayat Tahrir Al- Sham and that incredible CNN scoop speaking Jolani and hearing directly from him, that was part of seeing Hayat Tahrir Al-Sham in new light. This was a group that was very much Al-Qaeda affiliated and now has said that they are no longer Al-Qaeda affiliated, but they are Islamist in their outlook, and there is concern about what that means. Hayat Tahrir Al-Sham have been backed by Turkey very directly and in previous era supported by Qatar also.

There is also the Free Syrian Army. The Free Syrian Army is not an Islamist grouping. They were mainly in the southern part of Syria and in and out from Syria. Free Syrian Army is made out of -- made up of former soldiers in the Syrian army. So, one there is seen as more of a nationalistic kind of army, and also they know operationally Syria much better and in a different light than Hayat Tahrir Al-Sham.

There are many other groupings, smaller groupings that you can talk about in Suwayda and the southern part of Syria that never really calmed down, mainly Druze communities. There has been opposition there, very local opposition, and they've been able to push out local forces and so forth.

What we have to keep in mind is opposition at the moment is very fluid. And it's quite interesting, there is a former Syrian diplomat who put a note on his Facebook post this morning. He used to be a diplomat. He was one of the first diplomats to defect based in Washington. And he said, it's strange, I'm no longer the opposition. Who am I? And so this idea of that fluid and some, especially the foot soldiers, will now go and join different groupings, depending on who, one, seems more aligned to their values, but, two, may be the ones winning.

ANDERSON: This is fascinating and we've been making the point that we are not -- do not expect to see a sort of lurch from dictatorship, authoritarianism under the Assad family rule over the past 61 years, as you rightly point out, to democracy tomorrow in Syria, because that is very unlikely to happen. What happens next on the ground and how these groups sort of come together and how an opposition is formed and what that looks like will be revealed in the days and weeks to come.

[03:10:04]

You mentioned my colleague Jomana Karadsheh's interview with Mohammad Al-Jolani, the head of HTSC, the grouping that you've just been speaking about. Let's just run a little bit of that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: People listening to this are going to wonder why they should believe you. You are still a specially designated global terrorist by the United States with a $10 million bounty on your head. Your group is a prescribed terrorist organization by the United States, by the U.N., by the E.U. and others.

ABU MOHAMMAD AL JOLANI, LEADER, HAYAT TAHRIR AL-SHAM (HTS): I say to people, don't judge by words, but by actions. I believe the reality speaks for itself. These classifications are primarily political, and at the same time, wrong. I define a terrorist as someone who intentionally kills civilians, harms innocents, or displaces people, if we're being honest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: How significant a role is Abu Mohammad al-Jolani likely to take going forward, or be given?

AL-OBAIRI: Well, It's likely he's going to have a significant role in this transitionary period. So, it's hard to tell what will happen in a year's time. But definitely in this moment, those who hold ground are going to be able to have sway on what happens next.

It's important that Jolani said, judge us by our deeds, not words. It's interesting. That is what an American official said to me in Manama just yesterday attending the Manama Dialogue, IISS Manama Dialogue. And the American position has been, we're going to wait and see. Because, of course, let's not forget that HTS, Hayat Tahrir al- Sham, is prescribed, is considered a terrorist organization by the U.S. and several other countries. And so that has to be reconsidered for Jolani to be able to play any active role on a political stage outside of Syria. He's not going to be want to see as a terrorist, be seen as a terrorist.

So, I think he will have an important role in this transitory period. How he behaves and how he is able to hand over to civilian rule, of course, let's not forget the prime minister of Syria, at-Jalali, has stayed in Damascus, he made the address to the people, not the former president. We can actually say that now, not the former president, Bashar al-Assad, not the former president, but the prime minister. So, will Jolani have a relationship with the current P.M. and say to him, you know, we, we will follow your direction.

But the statements from Jolani have been that we are not here to try to run the day-to-day, you know, electricity, water and so forth. They know they have to hand that to the technocrats. That role in itself is very significant.

ANDERSON: Let's have a little -- listen to a little more of the discussion that he had with Jomana.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARADSHEH: Once an Al-Qaeda leader, your group has had affiliations with Al-Qaeda, with ISIS, and now you are projecting this image of a moderate leader and a moderate group. What is HTS right now?

AL-JOLANI: Hayat Tahrir al-Sham is one of the factions in the region, just like all the others. Now, we're talking about a larger project. We're talking about building Syria. Hayat Tahrir al-Sham is merely one detail of this dialogue, and it may dissolve at any time. It's not an end in itself but a means to perform a task confronting this regime.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: A little bit more about the thinking by al-Jolani there. You talked about the prime minister who spoke about wanting to be involved in a transition period, a peaceful transition period. In the past hour or so, we've seen him being walked out of a building by rebels who are now in Damascus.

The whereabouts of President Assad, still unknown, reports that he got on a flight out of Damascus, possibly headed in the direction of Russia. No further details about where that flight, if indeed he was on it, has ended up. The Russians seem to have decided that they have no further interest in Syria after a significant military presence and support for President Assad over the last, what, 11 or 12 years. The Iranians also, it seems, whether or not this is by decision or by default, abandoning President Bashar al-Assad now.

As we sit here today, you and I regularly discuss the sort of change in the architecture around this region. We are based here in the Gulf, of course, the tectonic plate shifting, if you will, what does this all mean for the wider region at this point?

[03:15:00]

AL-ORAIBI: It's hard to make accurate predictions of what comes next, because, as you said, we discuss things now that usually they would happen -- one event would happen, we'd spend six months.

ANDERSON: This is seismic. AL-ORAIBI: It's seismic and it's happening almost on a weekly basis now in the region. But this, Bashar al-Assad leaving Syria is a huge moment.

I would say just on Russia something you said they showed that they don't have interest in Syria. I think they do have an interest in Syria They don't have an interest now in this regime because it became too costly. And the way that the Syrian army fell back was because it showed you how hollowed out it became that it was Russian planes, it was Iranian-backed forces that were really keeping the Assad regime in place, but actually to a point that you heard this being said from Russian officials saying, we can't fight harder than you know Assad's army will fight to defend his regime rather than to defend Syria.

Russia's interests are very strong in Syria continuing, and that is why it's going to be very interesting to see what sort of agreements can be made. Of course, we often speak about Tartus, the important Mediterranean port that Russia feels is hugely important for its own strategic interests and its security, basically. So, what they do there will be important.

And just on what it means for the region, it depends what lessons have been learned. From Iraq, tragically, completely different story in 2003, what happened in Libya, what happened in Yemen, what happened in Sudan, and so forth. If the Syrians are able to learn the lesson where they determine their future, everyone's going to have an interest and will want to influence what's happening, everyone from the Iranians to the Russians and others. But if they are able to say, you know, this is -- we're going to control the situation and not allow foreign influence to supersede Syrian interests, then they would have been able to do a great service for their people.

ANDERSON: Everyone will have an interest, including the Gulf region, where we are very specifically the UAE and the Saudis who have huge economic projects. They want to see de-escalation around this region. They want to see economic integration, told by the Americans some years ago, sort your own backyard out. The region, they will say from Abu Dhabi and from Riyadh, you know, is undergoing this sort of reorganization, you know, so much more regional integration these days.

So, that is absolutely clear. And you're right to talk about the wider region here. What will be interesting is where the interest is from the United States.

Just this morning, in the last 40 minutes, Donald Trump, the president-elect, soon to take over on January the 20th, has said very categorically on his Truth Social side, the U.S. has no interest in Syria. This is not our war. He has also said that the Russians have no interest in Syria. You are right to point out that is no interest in Assad, of course. You have very adroitly pointed out why the Russians have an interest in Syria, but very specifically, not in this regime.

But I just want to just close very briefly with a comment from you on this U.S. perspective at this point. The Biden administration says simply it is watching what is going on. AL-ORAIBI: There are hundreds of American troops still inside Syria. Will they be withdrawn tomorrow? I don't think so. They will want to keep eyes there. There is still Al Hol Camp, which has tens of thousands of ISIS family members there. There are ample examples of why Syria is hugely important. There were reports, not yet confirmed, that there were Israeli tanks in Quneitra, in Syria. The U.S. position from Trump, and he is still not president, still president-elect, is that we don't want -- we're not going to come in and solve this, we're not going to come and try to determine what happens.

But the Biden administration is still in play, and I think that what is clear that Americans will want to make sure there are no extremist elements, but will also want to maintain serious and territorial integrity, which is a key issue for the Gulf states also, not to allow extremists, serious territorial integrity. But also the U.S. has had a very bad track record in the region. Will this be a moment where they have a little bit more of a positive track record, and that may mean that they just stay out of it?

ANDERSON: It's really good to have you. Mina's with me throughout this next hour, Mina Al-Oraibi, for the time being. Thank you.

I just want to step back for a moment and remember how we got here. The Assad family was an autocratic dynasty that held power for more than five decades. For most Syrians today, they don't know their country without the Assads. And as we know, there were many attempts to topple the regime, the Syrian Revolution being the driving force for what we are today.

And it all started with just four words. It's your turn, doctor. Exactly 13 years ago, five teenage boys spray painted those words directed at Bashar al-Assad on their school walls, demanding freedom and an end to his presidency.

[03:20:04]

This was back when we were, of course, reporting on what was then known as the Arab Spring. Well, they were rounded up and met with violence as protests spread across the country.

Syria slowly descended into an endless civil war that a week ago seemed still far from over. Well, hard to believe that those kids -- four of those kids, this was Daraa yesterday. Opposition forces entered the city for the first time since the start of the revolution, tearing down the statue of Bashar al-Assad's father, the former president, Hafez al-Assad, and dragging its head along the streets. A monumental moment in their decades-long struggle for freedom and what must feel like the beginning of the end.

And we will have a lot more on our breaking news out of Syria.

Happening right now, rebel forces say Damascus is free and that they are searching for President Bashar al-Assad. I'll be right back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) ANDERSON: Well, the latest now from Syria, where rebel troops are searching for President Bashar al-Assad, they say, after declaring on state T.V. that they have liberated Damascus.

[03:25:03]

Well, this video shows rebel fighters in Homs celebrating by firing into the air. This was shot shortly after they took control of the city. And in this video, you see Prime Minister Mohammad Ghazi al- Jalali being escorted by rebels in Damascus on Sunday, apparently to hand over government authority. And here you see why the rebels are calling the shots now, they control a large section of the country, the green on the map. Government forces are said to be in control of the areas in red.

Well, joining us now out of Doha is Firas Maksad. He is the director of strategic outreach and a senior fellow for the Middle East Institute. It's good to have you, Firas. You're a regular guest on this show.

As you consider what we have witnessed over the past 24 hours, your assessment of what is going on the ground and why this is so historic.

FIRAS MAKSAD, DIRECTOR OF STRATEGIC OUTREACH AND SENIOR FELLOW, MIDDLE EAST INSTITUTE: Becky, this is a momentous moment, not just for the Syrian people, but for the people of the Middle East, Lebanese, Palestinians, Syrians, or otherwise. What happens in Syria doesn't stay in Syria. This is a regime, that for over 50 years under the mantra of freedom, unity, and socialism, oppressed, tortured, and disappeared many, millions in Syria, half a million that are estimated to have lost their lives since the uprising against Bashar al-Assad in 2011, but also next door in Lebanon, where the regime occupied Lebanon for many years, for hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees in that country, sometimes in the name of defending Palestine.

But there's no doubt that this is a joyous moment for many at a human level. It's a moment of opportunity, but it's also a moment of potential peril because many Syrians don't know what comes next. And particularly for minority communities, Alawites, Afshut of Shia Islam, Ismailis, Druze and Christians, there are concerns about the more Islamist, Jihadi elements of this rebel force, particularly Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, HTS, which is the designated terrorist group by the United States and many of the outside countries.

ANDERSON: What will be the perspective in Beirut, in Tel Aviv, in Baghdad this morning? There will be -- there will certainly be concerns about the region's wider security at this point. What's your sense and what are you hearing?

MAKSAD: Yes, Becky. I mean, I'm reminded by the seminal work of the late historian, Patrick Seale, The Struggle for Syria. And I expect that we will face something of the sorts, the Syria that used to exist in the 60s and prior, where it was very much an arena for regional competition.

These rebel forces are predominantly supported by Turkey, and so Turkey will no doubt emerge as a big winner in all this. But the most direct impact is going to be felt in Lebanon, where Hezbollah depends on Syria for strategic depth, but it's also its lifeline of support from Iran, the arms that come through to Lebanon, and that sustain Hezbollah's hegemony over the country. Having just suffered a severe blow after a major war with Israel, this is a significant yet another blow for Hezbollah.

And then Israel, there are already news of the Israeli military mobilizing along the border with Syria, perhaps wanting to go further and create some kind of a buffer zone, communicating, sending messages out there to the rebel forces that they need not to approach that border and potentially destabilize it further.

My understanding from sources on the ground is that the rebels have already designated special regiments to control the borders, both with Lebanon, because of Hezbollah smuggling there, but also with Israel, their focus is going to be consolidating power over the coming days and weeks, rather than wanting to instigate any trouble with the neighbors, be it Lebanon, Israel or Iraq.

ANDERSON: And that's certainly the narrative that we have heard from rebels opposition leaders in the past hours. Firas, it's fantastic to have you. Thank you very much indeed, Firas Maksad with his perspective from Doha, where he is currently traveling.

Back with me is Mina Al-Oraibi, the editor-in-chief of The National, a global news organization, based here in Abu Dhabi.

[03:30:05]

And Firas talking about Turkey there, and the influence of Ankara, as we look at pictures of sizable crowds in Istanbul. These will be supporters of the opposition of rebel groups. This will be Syrian refugees very likely. There are 3 million of those in Turkey, of course, displaced over the past decade or so. The influence of Turkey, how do you how do you assess what we should understand?

AL-ORAIBI: Turkey will have influence almost on three levels. The first and most immediate, of course, is its relationship with opposition figures, particularly opposition groups like Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, whose being able to sustain them over the last few years was a huge feat for Turkey to continue, despite many others who used to support the opposition pulling back. So, they have influence through these groups.

They also have influence through the many Syrians we're seeing and the crowds there, who really sought refuge in Turkey. And whilst some, of course, struggled there, the vast majority are very grateful to Turkey for not closing their borders when others did.

And I'd say the third source of influence is, you know, let's not forget, Turkey is a NATO member, member of G20, hugely influential. And so they will also -- the opposition parties that are close to Turkey will look to it to help them be accepted on the wider political stage when they're ready, once they've consolidated internally. So, a huge influence for Turkey going forward. ANDERSON: Tactically, many are saying Assad made a big mistake when President Erdogan reelected a couple of years ago, effectively reached out to the Syrian president, and he was rebuffed. There are a number -- I've had a number conversations over the past 24 hours about the sort of tactical, perhaps we should call them strategic mistakes, but certainly tactical mistakes that Bashar al-Assad has made with leaders and countries around this region, both in the Arab world and in the wider Middle East.

He had some options. He has had options since he has been brought in from the cold by the wider Arab region for the last couple of years. You know, and those I'm speaking to are saying, you know, miscalculating those opportunities time after time. What is President Erdogan's sort of long-term strategy with regard to Syria?

AL-ORAIBI: I mean, the long term strategy is really to have a stable Syria where Turkey has influence, where Turkey doesn't get any threats from Syria. That, of course, includes the Kurds, and how the Kurds and Qassad and the SDF will act now hugely important. But Turkey's also long-term interest in Syria is to have the sort of influence that some people get worried about.

Now, you know, Turkish politicians have been very clear at saying, you know, we respect Syrian sovereignty, integrity and so forth, but there's always been, you know, historical lands in Syria that some Turks may think feel that it should be part --

ANDERSON: The speech he's made, a lie (ph) to that, yes.

AL-ORAIBI: But I don't think they're going to do any of that. I think they genuinely want a stable Syria and hugely important to be able to return some of those 3 million Syrians back to Syria. A key reason that had President Erdogan reached out and accept the outreach from the Syrian regime of Bashar al-Assad, it was because they wanted the Syrian refugees to go back. They were in dire economic conditions, many of them were. And so to be able to create that, you know, safe zone for them to be able to go back, well, now perhaps it could happen.

So, that's also a very important imperative domestically because during those elections, those presidential elections that President Erdogan won, this became a very contentious topic. And when people said that, you know, Turkey is going through its own economic woes, we need people to go back, that will be important. But the miscalculation of Bashar al-Assad, exactly as you said, Becky, rightly said, of not seizing that opportunity, because for many people, they thought that's when it was really over for the Syrian opposition, because Bashar al- Assad was being more and more accepted. Italy just opened a diplomatic mission a few weeks ago in Syria, and everything's changed now.

ANDERSON: You and I talked about the fact that the Biden administration is, quote, watching what is going on. It has two months left, of course, in play. You have rightly suggested that they -- as they game this out and they will be doing this, albeit this is moving at lightning speed, I mean, the Biden administration will be gaming this out at this point. You know, there are thousands of troops deployed there and in region.

You talked about the U.S. needing to, you know, ensure it looks to the lessons of history with regard to Iraq. I want to talk about both the U.S. and Iraq with you after this short break.

We'll be back after this.

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[03:35:00]

ANDERSON: Right, let's get you the very latest on our breaking news. Rebel forces in Syria say the capital of Damascus has been liberated, claiming President Bashar al-Assad has been overthrown. In this video, you see Prime Minister Mohammad Ghazi al-Jalali being escorted by rebels in Damascus earlier. They purportedly took him to a hotel to hand over government authority.

Well, people are celebrating in these streets, some carrying huge rebel flags. The rebels actively searching for Assad, they say, who has not been seen or heard from for some days. Well, a source tells CNN that the rebels are questioning Syrian military officers and intelligence officials who may have knowledge about Assad's movement.

Well, joining us now from New York is Michael Weiss. He is the co- author of ISIS, Inside the Army of Terror. He is also the editor for The Insider. It's good to have you.

And let's just get your perspective of what we are seeing in the ground. There is a significant member. We are not looking at one sort of opposition, one rebel group here. There is a -- you know, there are moving parts, and those parts continue to move. Your assessment of what we are seeing on the ground before we talk about how the Biden administration might be gaming this out at this point.

MICHAEL WEISS, CO-AUTHOR, ISIS, INSIDE THE ARMY OF TERROR: Sure. Thanks for having me, Becky.

[03:40:00]

I mean, it's nothing short of extraordinary. This is a half century dynastic rule that simply melted away. I mean, keep in mind, this is a civil war, one of the most horrific and lengthy civil wars with hundreds of thousands dead. I began covering it in 2011 when it started as a protest movement and it ended sort of with a whimper. I mean, Damascus wasn't necessarily even militarily taken over. It was given over to the opposition forces, which are led by this group, HTS.

HTS, as everyone knows, by now is a former Al-Qaeda affiliate. And there's quite a lot of people in the west who are saying, well, just how much should we emphasize the former bit? But it's clear that if you just assess what's happened in the last 13 days beginning with the stunning capture of Aleppo in what was meant to be a limited offensive that has now essentially topple the Assad regime in the space of 13 days, the governance of HTS has been more pragmatic than I think a lot of people were expecting. Christians were at church on Sunday last week. It's going to be Sunday. It is Sunday in Syria now. There probably is going to be another mass. The leader, Abu Mohammad al- Jolani is, is trying to position himself as somebody who can be a kind of nationalist figure, much more so than a jihadist, even though HTS is absolutely still a jihadist organization.

But it's early days here, and I want to emphasize, you asked about the sort of makeup of who's who. HTS may be the spearhead of this assault or takeover, but they are not the only actor on the ground. You've got the Syrian Democratic forces, which is a U.S. proxy, basically stood up to counter and defeat ISIS in the Jazeera, in Eastern Syria. You've got former, quote/unquote, reconciled rebel groups, Free Syrian Army actors, who were basically brought back into a pro-Assad consortium of players. They basically took up arms and decided to rejoin the opposition.

Jordan will play a role as well as Turkey, because Jordan obviously shares a border with Syria. And they do not want to see any kind of Islamist activity near their border. There are also just local communities that are now kind of crawling out of their homes and out of the shadows who had long had had a revulsion for this regime, who are going to be political players. There are civil society groups.

I mean, remember, we like to think that Assad won this war. He didn't. He just looked that way. And the evidence is, again, at the lightning speed with which his entire edifice has crumbled. I mean, my God, Becky, the Republican Guard, the 4th division, these are the most fearsome military forces in Syria, and they ran off. I mean, if you had told me two weeks ago that this would be the case, I would have said, you have to get your head examined.

So, I think we really have to look at just how fundamentally weak this dictatorship was and has been for a long time.

ANDERSON: Understood. Michael, listen we will get an opportunity to talk more in the days and weeks ahead because your analysis is extremely important to us. For the time being, thank you very much, indeed, for joining us, Michael Weiss for you out of New York this morning.

We're going to take a very short break, we are at this point. We will be back straight after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[03:45:00]

ANDERSON: Well, let's get you back to our breaking news in Syria, where 50 years of authoritarian rule by the Assad family has crumbled in the face of a lightning fast rebel offensive.

I've got Mina Al-Oraibi, the editor-in-chief of the National, a global news organization based in Abu Dhabi, here with me.

This is a remarkable time, it has to be said, for the region. You are, in the break, reminding me that you know, there have been remarkable times over the last 25 years. You're an Iraqi, for example. You know what it feels like to feel as if we're at a pivotal point in this region, only to be so sorely disappointed. And you can talk to anybody around this region, Iraqi, Iranian, Syrian, Lebanese, who will say the same thing.

Let's talk about how, what is going on in Syria at present has such an influence though around the region. Let's start, you know, in Tehran. I want to take on Tehran and Baghdad, Iran and Iraq at this point. There's many people doing the rounds at the moment, I've seen this on social, suggesting that, you know, this is a sort of fall of the Berlin Wall moment for Iran's influence, what's known as its malign influence around this wider sort of Middle East region, the fall of these proxies, the decapitation of both Hezbollah and Hamas, if you buy into that. How significantly, you know, hurt is Iran's influence? And why does that matter so much for this region?

AL-ORAIBI: Iranian officials used to boast that they now control Damascus, Baghdad, Beirut, and Sana'a, four Arab capitals, and definitely not the case anymore in Damascus and Beirut. And I would say many Iraqis in Baghdad, and even those in government, used to resent that sort of statement because, you know, Iraq remains a sovereign country. And Yemen, surely, yes, the Houthis control Sana'a, but they're not really ruling for all Yemenis, and actually the internationally recognized government is sitting in Aden. So, that's on the one hand.

The next moment, as you said, it's like the fall of the Berlin Wall. I think we had a beginning of that with the killing of Hassan Nasrallah and a change of what it meant, but also the fact that Ismail Haniyeh, head of Hamas, was assassinated in Tehran, you know, that chipping off of Iran seeming almost invincible happening in its own capital. Again, this is only happened a few months ago. So, definitely the aura of Iran being invincible and also calling the shots in several Arab capitals and countries, that moment has ended. But what comes next?

And, again, I think it's really important to say, no one is saying that Iran isn't an important player or an important country in the region, or, God forbid, anyone would want to see conflict, you know, inside of Iran.

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But it's more this idea of it is not normal to have Sovereign countries unable to call the shots on war and peace in their own countries. You know, ultimately, what is a nation state? Number one is providing for its people. Number two is having a monopoly over the control of arms. And that was taken away from certain countries.

Tehran today will be making many calculations, but one of them is how they will be able to reconfigure their role in the region. It's not just being a sponsor of either no- state actors or regimes like those of Bashar al-Assad

ANDERSON: Anwar Gargash, who is a special adviser to the president here in the UAE, spoke earlier today in what are known as the Manama Dialogues, IISS, gathering in Bahrain, and he said the following, where he ends up will be a footnote in history, he said, talking about Bashar al-Assad. Why is that significant?

AL-ORAIBI: There were questions about whether Bashar al-Assad and his family would come to the UAE. Now, we have to remember, there has been tradition, really, in Saudi Arabia and sometimes in the UAE, where former dictators will leave, and it spares the country from more unrest and killing. And so, Dr. Anwar Gargash was responding to a question about that. And he said, where Bashar-Assad ends up will be a footnote in history, and I think that's actually true. Many people care about it. Syrians care about it. But the reality is the regime, as it was, is over.

And actually, what's really interesting, a week ago, nobody knew, I don't think most people knew, the name of the Syrian prime minister. The fact that he stayed, put out a video and said, I'm here, I'm going to try to help with this transition period, he will become more significant for this moment than where Bashar al-Assad ends up.

ANDERSON: It's been fantastic having you. Thank you very much, indeed, couldn't have done better than having Mina al-Oraibi with me in this hour on CNN, as we continue to cover the breaking news in Syria, which has such influence for Syria, Syrians and this wider region. We will be back right after this.

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ANDERSON: Well, an update now on the breaking news out of Syria, rebel troops are searching for President Bashar al-Assad, they say, after declaring on state T.V. that they have liberated Damascus. Scenes like these are playing out around the country. A statue of former President Hafez al-Assad, Bashar al-Assad's father, toppled on the country's Arwad Island. He was, well, as I say, the father of the what is now, it seems, former president.

Meanwhile, the rebels know where the prime minister is. They are escorting him in this video apparently to a hotel to hand over authority. He said earlier that he is ready to work with, quote, any leadership the people choose.

Thank you for joining us for this hour. Don't go away, though. We have a lot more news. This story continues to provide breaking lines for us. More on our breaking news after this.

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