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NYPD: Luigi Mangione "Strong Person Of Interest" In CEO Killing; Syrians Celebrate Fall Of Assad Regime Amid Uncertainty Over Who Will Govern; Trump Says He Will End Birthright Citizenship, "It's Ridiculous". Aired 3-4p ET

Aired December 09, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:22]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. Thanks so much for joining me today on CNN NEWSROOM and let's get right to the news.

We begin with a major break in the targeted killing of health insurers CEO Brian Thompson. New York police have announced an arrest, and they say they found evidence as well of a motive. There's the picture. The police commissioner said 26-year-old Luigi Mangione of Maryland is, quote, a strong person of interest. He has no criminal record, we should note.

Mangione was arrested in Altoona, Pennsylvania, allegedly found with an untraceable homemade ghost gun, a suppressor or silencer, multiple fake IDs and a two page letter slamming the health care industry. Mangione currently faces charges related to the gun he had on him. That's just a start.

This arrest comes five days after a gunman was seen on video, and there's that picture there, using a handgun with a silencer to shoot Thompson dead. The CEO of UnitedHealthcare outside of Manhattan hotel early in the morning. Thompson was 50 years old, the father of two.

CNN law enforcement reporter Mark Morales has been covering this.

Mark, listen, this had been a manhunt spreading out from New York, really across the country. They've been widely distributing those pictures of him that they had gathered. And he's found at a McDonalds in Pennsylvania. Tell us how it happened.

MARK MORALES, CNN REPORTER: Right. And, Jim, it really traces back to those photos as you mentioned, he's in the McDonald's, he's sitting there eating. And that's when a worker spots him and calls their local police in Pennsylvania saying I think he's here. And that was really the strategy from law enforcement here in New York City. That's why they were putting so much emphasis and so much effort on that video collection unit, because they wanted to get that image. And this is where it ultimately led to.

Once investigators approached him and they started asking him questions, they found that homemade handgun. That or as it's known in law enforcement circles, that ghost gun. They also found all those fake identifications. A lot of evidence that points to him being the suspect and the person

wanted in connection with this shooting and probably most, was this two page document that he had on him where he was, as you said, railing against the health insurance industry. Now, law enforcement officials, along with New York City Mayor Eric Adams, held a briefing earlier this earlier today. And I asked specifically about that document. And they said that there was no indication that he was intending to go after anybody else in the health care industry.

But what was clear from that document was that he was very unhappy with corporate America. That's how Chief of Detectives Joe Kenny put it -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. I mean, these quotes, these parasites had it coming. And I although he went on to say, I do apologize for any strife and trauma, but it had to be done. I mean, it had to be done, a murder on the streets of New York. Mark Morales, thanks so much.

For more, I want to bring in Tom Verni. He's a retired NYPD detective and law enforcement consultant.

Good to have you on, Tom.

I mean, you know, manhunts involved in some yourself. I'm sure, arrested in Pennsylvania. Crime, of course, in New York, a connection to a possible bus route. But it seems here just good old fashioned police work getting those pictures out there.

And someone in a McDonald's in Altoona sees him thinks he recognizes him and does that thing. Police are always say, saying if you see something, say something yeah, correct.

TOM VERNI, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Yeah, correct. Good -- good to be with you, Jim.

And listen, I have been saying this a couple days ago, when I was on with Jake Tapper and a couple of others that my the theory of him being a hit man didn't sit right with me from the beginning because of, quote/unquote, professional hitman wouldn't have left so much evidence behind and would have really been a ghost. So you wouldn't have really seen even the face of this person if it was a professional.

And I always leaned on the side of either a former employee with a grudge or someone with a grudge against the health care industry, or the specific CEO, and that's what we wound up having here. So I'm not surprised really, by the findings that we've -- we've discovered today. And yeah, it was good old-fashioned, you know, detective work, you know getting the pictures out there for people to see who were looking for and really pleading for the help of the public to if they saw something that was weird or unsettling or just not right to tell somebody about it.

SCIUTTO: Clearly, a profile -- they're going to be attempting to build a broader profile here to get to motive, and so on.

[15:05:05]

I mean, you have those comments from the material captured with him. These parasites had it coming. You had those words on some of the shell casings found at the scene, like deny, possibly related to a denial from a health care service and certainly they're going to be looking through his social media accounts, I imagine. Tell us how that will go forward and the importance of that.

VERNI: Yeah. Well, this is basically were connecting the dots right where, you know, I mean, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who hasn't had some sort of strife with their insurance company and present company included, and while I never believed that there was an immediate threat to the public safety or anyone staying at the Hilton, which, you know, this occurred next to, this was clearly a targeted attack, from the beginning, just by the fact that when the shooting occurred, there was someone standing within a few feet of the shooter that he didn't' bother with. And someone in an SUV that he didn't bother with either.

So, you know, we were pretty sure that this was a targeted attack however, you had someone running around with a gun who's clearly unhinged for the fact that they would commit a murder in broad daylight. So they were dangerous, right?

So we had to get this person off the street. Now the fact that this manifesto has you know, shown up with -- with other, evidence that they've collected at the scene of his arrest, just kind of corroborates the fact that this person was having an issue with whether it be the health care industry and/or maybe corporate America at large. So would he have stopped with just this one person? Would he have continued if he felt that he can get away with this one murder? And that was the concern.

And that's not the way were going to solve problems here by picking off CEOs or anyone else in these industries.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. You bring that up. And I was thinking of asking you about that because listen folks can have issues with a lot of institutions in this country right now, no justification for using violence to respond to that. But there was in the wake of this concern from other CEOs about the possibility of being targeted, and I wonder when you look at someone like this, I mean the emotions involved here are not unique to him.

And of course, this is a country with a lot of division right now. It's also a country where you can get guns pretty darn easily, including dose guns like the one he used here.

If you were advising folks in those positions -- I mean, would you say that this is something law enforcement in the country has to be more aware of right now, a potential threat like this? It's almost a form of domestic terrorism.

VERNI: Well, it is. It really is because, you know, the use of violence to further a political objective really is a definition, at least the FBI's definition of terrorism, right? So this really is a form of terrorism. The fact that you can now create your own weapon by the use of a 3D printer, it's just horrifying, especially for those who feel like they can't get their hands on a weapon in the street or at a gun show or whatever it may be, or a gun shop.

Now, they can make their own weapon. So that's a real problem for law enforcement, because these ghost guns are not traceable as a standard, you know, you know, weapon would be that you would buy in a gun store or a gun shop.

So, that's a problem. The fact that people you know, seem to resort to violence as their first means of, of trying to take care of a problem is another issue. So this is something that politically is going to have to really be wrangled down to make sure we can get a handle on this ghost gun issue.

And you know, a big Fortune 500 companies, really, anyone -- anyone who's part of a company where they're receiving threats of this nature really should start to consider budgeting to have some sort of protection, external protection, if especially if they're going to be attending a conference as the CEO is trying to do, to, you know, to try to fortify their safety.

SCIUTTO: Is there anything -- I know the Biden administration took some steps to attempt to address the ghost gun problem. Is there anything that could truly be done, right, given the proliferation of this technology, 3D printers, et cetera?

VERNI: Well, you know, we've -- we've had this discussion over, you know, when we've talked about school shootings and all kinds of mass shootings in the past, right, in that for me, you know, after Sandy Hook took place in 2012, we had 20 1st graders slaughtered in their classrooms and half a dozen teachers. That to me, I mean, not that these other mass shootings beforehand or since were any less important of course, but for some reason, for me, that was almost a line in the sand where, you know, and this ghost gun thing hadn't even taken place yet. Some significant series of modifications to try to prevent this from something like this from happening, where you can now on the Internet, you know, create your own gun and do what a 3D printer.

Something has to be done about that. This is not going to be the end unless something is done to curtail the ability of people obtaining these weapons period. Whether it be over the Internet, in the inner cities where gang violence is rampant, like Chicago, people are being picked off like it's for free and no one seems to really care. And I just don't get it.

And this was pervasive through the Obama administration, through the Biden administration, through the Trump administration. No one really seems to care. The body count is clearly not high enough yet, and for someone to really do something about it. And this will continue to happen.

SCIUTTO: Well, results of recent elections show that the at least political means to change that, folks just aren't making that choice in numbers. And I hear you on Sandy Hook. I had the same reaction.

Tom Verni, good to have you on as always. Sorry. Go ahead.

VERNI: Trump was shot himself, so hopefully that that makes some kind of a difference in this administration coming in. I don't know.

SCIUTTO: We haven't seen it yet. Tom Verni, thanks so much.

VERNI: Yeah.

SCIUTTO: Now to Syria. The sun has set in Damascus in the waning hours of the first full day of freedom in that country after 50 years of brutal deadly, bloody Assad rule. It is, though, a long road ahead to determine who will succeed that dictatorship. Will it be much better?

Today, the transition began. Syria's former prime minister meeting with and agreeing to hand over power to his rebel counterparts. The U.S. says though it is not clear who is actually running the country at this point.

Just outside the city, an emotional scene unfolding as Syrians desperate to locate missing relatives searched the notorious Saydnaya military prison, dubbed perhaps more appropriately, a human slaughterhouse by Amnesty International.

Not far from there is where CNN chief international correspondent Clarissa Ward brought us a look at the hope and the uncertainty among the Syrian people today -- Clarissa.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: As you can see, there are a lot of people out on the streets today. It's not scenes of celebration. It's not scenes of looting like we were seeing today. Now people are trying to make sure that they have stocked up on all the supplies that they might need.

Take a look at this line here. We're outside a bakery. These people say they've been waiting more than half an hour, some of them. They're waiting for bread.

We've seen lines like this around the city. People are lining up for cash. They're lining up for gas. They are trying to make sure that they have enough food to ride out this transitional period where nobody really knows what's going to happen.

Now, you can see behind me at the end of the road there. That is the central bank of Syria. Yesterday there was extensive looting there. A lot of people in the city started to feel a little bit concerned that this was going to be a chaotic period then more rebels arrived in the capital. The looting appears to have stopped.

It does seem very calm on the streets. Of course, there are many people who are elated that Bashar al-Assad is finally gone. But there is also the day to day that people need to focus on to ensure that they have enough bread enough gas, enough cash, enough supplies to get them through this tenuous transitional period. Clarissa Ward, CNN, Damascus.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: For more, I want to bring in now, Firas Maksad, senior fellow, senior director for strategic outreach at the Middle East Institute. Karim Sadjadpour, senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Both gentlemen, with an enormous amount of experience in the Middle East and analyzing events there.

Good to have you both on.

Firas, perhaps I could begin with you because it was notable to see something of a formal transfer of power today from the former prime minister onto this rebel group there, after, of course, Bashar al- Assad and his family fled the country. I mean, it looks so normal in a way, right? Given that this was a rapid military takeover of the country and collapse after 50 years of the Assad regime.

Does this portend to you some sort of normal and measured and calm and peaceful transfer of power?

FIRAS MAKSAD, DIRECTOR & SENIOR FELLOW FOR STRATEGIC OUTREACH, MIDDLE EAST INSTITUTE: Yeah, Jim, this despite the visual there is nothing that is normal about what just took place in Syria. What's interesting is that the leader of Hayat Tahrir al-Sham HTS is going to great lengths to demonstrate, to put himself out as this orderly, moderate figure that can, in fact, bring the various factions and communities of Syria together. And that he would be somebody who can build state institutions to replace the dictatorship that was just deposed.

[15:15:02]

The reality is very different from that. The reality is that we have a jihadi heavy rebel movement that does not have much ties to the outside world much aside from Turkey that the Arab countries around Syria are not comfortable dealing with, and which the United States have designated as a foreign terrorist organization. Those are all going to be complicating factors in the days and months ahead. The fight to overthrow Bashar al-Assad is over.

The struggle for the future of Syria has just begun and that's a struggle that many worry is going to unfold, both domestically in Syria, amongst the various communities and factions, but also regionally speaking, in the other rival regional powers perhaps turning Syria into another Libya.

SCIUTTO: I wonder, as you watch Iran so closely, Karim, what this means for Iran's axis of resistance as it's come to be called in the region, particularly with the massive blows struck to Hezbollah by Israel in recent weeks and months. And now the collapse of it's -- certainly its ally in Syria and Bashar al Assad. Are we seeing that axis falling apart for Iran?

KARIM SADJADPOUR, SENIOR FELLOW, CARNIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE: It's absolutely falling apart, Jim. And it could well be the end of that axis of resistance. I think what's most -- what's going to be most difficult for Iran is to rebuild the crown jewel of the Iranian revolution of 1979, which is Lebanese Hezbollah. As Firas knows much better than I do, Syria has been Iran's bridge to arming and financing Hezbollah and Hezbollah has been decimated by Israel over the last four months.

And so, Iran's ability to rebuild Hezbollah is in great question. Now, what Iran is going to try to do, Jim, is to forge a partnership with the new leaders in Damascus to say, listen, we have a common enmity toward Israel, towards the United States. Let's work together.

It remains a big question if the same people that Iran was helping Assad massacre over the last decade are going to be willing to partner with them.

SCIUTTO: It's been interesting to watch both Iran and Russia as well claim that, well, they're just fine with how things turned out there. And, you know, they weren't that close to the old guys and we could do business with the new guys, which is, of course, a lie, Firas.

So, Firas, as you're watching this -- there are so many players involved. Russia also losing an ally in the region and potentially losing access to a key naval base on the Mediterranean. But also an air base there.

How much of a blow to Russia's power?

MAKSAD: It's a significant blow, and it's part of this not only just regional power play that's taking place. Clearly, Turkey here emerging as a significant winner, given that its the main backer of the HTS Hayat Tahrir al-Sham rebel group, but also the great powers.

We have 900 U.S. troops in northwestern Syria. They are consequential in terms of the fight against the remnants of Islamic State. And we have that Russian air base and port in Tartus, which is Russia's only warm water port.

Turkey, not very comfortable with Russia being there on its southern flank. Turkey being a member of the western alliance and NATO. So we could very much see a kind of power play emerge between the two and the future of Russian presence in Syria right now is at stake.

So these are very difficult questions that the new rulers of Syria are going to have to contend with in terms of how they align themselves both regionally and globally and that's why, despite this moment of hope for Syria, there are some grave concerns that Syria can be the next Lebanon. Syria historically has been a fractured state, and now post-Assad, it can very much go back to being one.

SCIUTTO: As you know, better than me, Karim, autocrats despite the power they project, are fundamentally nervous. They worry that they'll be the next to fall.

I wonder how the Iranian regime views this and do they fear? Listen, Iran has been the scene of mass popular protests through the years, most recently in response to the horrible treatment of women there. Do you believe the Iranian leadership might be worried we could be next? And do you believe that that resistance forces inside Iran might see an opportunity here?

SADJADPOUR: Jim, they absolutely should be worried that they could be next, because there's probably no country in the world with a greater gap between the aspirations of its regime and the aspirations of its people than Iran. You have a regime which has aspired to be like North Korea, a society which aspires to be like South Korea.

[15:20:08]

And what we saw in Syria was a kind of reflective of that old adage about dictatorships, that they all look good until the last ten minutes. The Islamic Republic of Iran could also prove to be a house of cards.

I think the missing equation in Iran has been an effective opposition with clear leadership and organization and strategy. But when it comes to the unpopularity of the regime, the Islamic Republic, like Syria, has been deeply unpopular for years.

SCIUTTO: Yeah, well, and then a question comes for the Iranian leadership. Do they attempt to deal particularly with an incoming U.S. president, or do they calculate? Well, they need a nuclear weapon to survive?

More to discuss next time we talk. Firas, Karim, thanks so much.

SADJADPOUR: Thank you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: And we will have much more on the fall of Assad. What is next for Syria, for the region coming up.

But up next Trump's birthright citizenship lie and his vow to end a right enshrined in the 14th Amendment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: In his first network television interview since his reelection, President-elect Donald Trump laid out a sweeping agenda to reshape government and the laws of this country during his second term in office, including this likely pardons, he said, for the rioters who assaulted police and stormed the U.S. Capitol on January 6th. Also, the threat of possible jail for a bipartisan panel of elected legislators who investigated that incident and his role in it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Cheney was behind it, and so was Bennie Thompson and everybody on that committee.

KRISTEN WELKER, NBC NEWS ANCHOR: We're going to --

TRUMP: For what they did --

WELKER: Yeah. TRUMP: -- honestly, they should go to jail.

WELKER: So you think Liz Cheney should go to jail?

TRUMP: For what they did --

WELKER: Everyone on the committee you think should go to jail?

TRUMP: I think everybody on the -- anybody that voted in favor --

[15:25:02]

WELKER: Are you going to direct your FBI director and your attorney general to send them to jail?

TRUMP: No, not at all. I think that they'll have to look at that. But I'm not going to -- I'm going to focus on drill, baby, drill.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: They'll have to look at that, sending elected legislators to jail. Also in that interview, he tested a core tenet of a nation of immigrants. If you were born here in this country, you are a citizen.

Let's bring in Larry Sabato, director of the University of Virginia Center for Politics, to discuss it all.

Larry, it's good to have you on.

Listen, there's a lot of news we have to pay attention because what the president elect is proposing here are enormous changes. So I want to take the time to go through some of them.

Let's begin with this threat once again to prosecute those who took part in the January 6th panel. Liz Cheney responded with the following: Donald Trump's suggestion that members of Congress, who later investigated his illegal and unconstitutional actions should be jailed is a continuation of his assault on the rule of law and the foundations of our republic.

Now, we should note Trump said, Hillary Clinton should be in jail during the first campaign. Ultimately, his attorney general did not investigate her. But as you know, as I'm sure you've noticed, the folks he's putting up for senior positions now are much more loyalists than the ones in his first term. He's learned the system.

And I just wonder, do you believe that we will see criminal prosecutions of those who took part in the January 6th committee?

LARRY SABATO, DIRECTOR, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA CENTER FOR POLITICS: Well, Jim, shockingly and regrettably it is well within the universe of possibilities that we'll see under the Trump administration, and as you note, he's putting total loyalists in charge of these positions, including the Justice Department.

Of course, he tried for the ultimate loyalist, Matt Gaetz, who didn't make it out of the gate. But Pam Bondi from Florida is just as loyal to Trump.

Now, what -- what is the real reason for this, it's intimidation. And these appointees knowing that if they don't try to please their boss, the president of the United States, they could be replaced. They could be pilloried on social media. So they will at least try to do some things in that direction, which will cause stress for all of these people, and in many cases, run up enormous legal bills.

WELKER: And that could be the goal to some degree, right?

And Kash Patel his choice for FBI director has said so publicly, including about journalists going after them criminally or civilly or both.

I want to bring up birthright citizenship now because he said it before the election. Now, he said it again. And just for folks at home who don't know this -- I mean, this comes from the 14th Amendment, followed the civil war, the -- to make it clear that black Americans were citizens and not property to be owned, but of course, listen, if you're an immigrant in this country, someone in your family was born here and got citizenship from being born here. Can he get that changed?

I mean, ultimately that would be if he if he does it via executive action, it will be challenged in court. It will go to the Supreme Court. Will this Supreme Court allow the end or some restriction of birthright citizenship?

SABATO: If you had asked me this ten years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, I would have laughed. I would have said no immediately. But look at this Supreme Court.

So three Trump appointees, he may get another 1 or 2 justices during this term and he's got several other votes on the Supreme Court. So anything's possible.

Let's give them the benefit of the doubt at the moment, even if they don't deserve it. If you go ahead and issue an executive order essentially abolishing or limiting a birthright citizenship, it will be immediately challenged in the courts. But that's where it gets interesting where it's challenged and how it's challenged and how long it takes to get beyond this, and in the meantime lots of people are kept up in the air.

SCIUTTO: No question. What are the checks in this? I mean, we have seen a whittling away of checks and balances, one being just the simple fact that Republican senators who might disagree, for instance, with some of his more controversial, appointments live in fear of defying this president and being targeted for doing so. What are the checks on some of these more egregious moves he's suggesting?

SABATO: And notice the intimidation factor. They're going after Senator Joni Ernst from Iowa already because she's had charity as a combat veteran who was subjected to -- subjected to sexual assault. She's had the nerve to question the nominee for secretary of defense.

So that's the norm. That's what they're -- the message they're sending to senators. The checks are limited, but they're still significant.

[15:30:02]

First of all, the Republicans have a tiny majority in the House of Representatives, really tiny. And in the Senate, most of these serious actions are going to require 60 votes, while the Republicans have the majority. But the majority of 53, which means they have to find seven Democrats to go along with some of this.

We'll be mighty grateful for some of these rules and the closeness of the House before it's over.

SCIUTTO: Larry Sabato, it's not the first, not the last time we'll talk about it. Thanks so much for joining.

SABATO: Thank you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Coming up next, the dangers of being an aid worker in the middle of the ongoing Israel-Hamas war. I'm going to be joined by the brother of a Palestinian chef killed by an Israeli drone.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: It's now become one of the most dangerous jobs in the world, just feeding Palestinians surrounded by war in Gaza and now facing famine.

Last month, an Israeli airstrike hit a world central kitchen car, killing three aid workers who were on their way to deliver food and other basic necessities to civilians. Israel's military said in a statement that it was targeting a militant who allegedly took part in the October 7th attack, but has offered no concrete evidence to support that claim.

On the very same day, November 30th, an Israeli drone killed another vital aid worker, Palestinian chef Mahmoud Almadhoun, in what his family calls a targeted attack. Mahmoud was the co-founder of the Gaza Soup Kitchen, a family led operation where he delivered meals for as many as 200 to 250 families every day founded after seeing just the dire need in northern Gaza.

[15:35:03]

He worked tirelessly to send produce vegetables and other essentials to the nearby hospital for both patients and medical staff. He also helped found a school and a medical clinic. He is now survived by seven children, including a newborn baby.

I'm joined now by Mahmoud's brother and director of philanthropy at UNRWA USA, Hani Almadhoun.

Hani, thanks so much for joining.

HANI ALMADHOUN, BROTHER OF AID WORKER KILLED IN GAZA: Thank you for having me. SCIUTTO: We truly sympathize with you and your family's loss. Your

brother's story is -- it's a moving one because he didn't start with a soup kitchen. He had another business there. It was destroyed in Israelis -- Israel's attack.

So he decided of his own will and the necessity the people around him to start this. Tell us about him and what led him to do this?

ALMADHOUN: He's our baby brother. He is 33 years old. The youngest and always wanted to impress the grown ups. He figured out how to cook to local people, local -- working with local farmers, try to think about aid differently instead of waiting for trucks to come from outside which is essential.

He worked with the local farmers, foraging literally in the rain, trying to find some herbs, potatoes overgrown zucchinis and just started making stews and the rest is history.

SCIUTTO: Has the Israeli military provided you or your family any explanation for this strike?

ALMADHOUN: I continue to challenge the Israeli army to provide a response to our family. They have not given a response. The last time I checked, they were still formulating a response. We still have not had a response for the killing of my brother a year ago.

So we're hopeful, but we know our brother. He has no secret life. He's a chef, he's a goofball and he's a father of seven, but also somebody of a humanitarian.

You know, he should be collecting awards when hopefully, maybe we'll have a ceasefire at some point. But unfortunately, he's buried six feet under for just feeding people and helping them stay and survive.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. Amnesty International documented the cases of many Palestinians who were detained without providing evidence that they posed a security threat over the past year.

We should note the Israeli military detained Mahmoud twice. He was vetted and released both times. A clear indication the Israeli military had no evidence that he was a militant.

Can you tell us about your brother's decision to continue working despite the enormous threat there?

ALMADHOUN: Yeah. You know, he wanted to cook for our neighbors, for our family. He used to cook every Friday for the family, so he wanted to do it in a larger scale. And people loved him.

For the first time, he cooked for 120 families, and then people showed up at his house asking for food, and he said, let me figure out how I can solve this and he sustained it for ten months, serving as much as 600 families, providing meals for the hospital, for the doctors, for the patients.

And we think that's what brought the end of him, because he was helping the hospital survive and thrive. And that was and, you know, there is an effort to depopulate north of Gaza. And if the patients and the doctors have food in the hospital, then they're less likely to move away from the north.

SCIUTTO: So you believe he may have been deliberately targeted?

ALMADHOUN: A hundred percent. This is a drone attack for him, only him. There is no crossfire. He was just left the house. It must have been waiting for him outside.

Can you imagine a chef being targeted by a drone?

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

ALMADHOUN: Just a chef. Not, you know, like it must be a very horrible ROI if you're the Israeli army going after a chef. They could have called me. They have my number. They have his number they could have said, hey, leave or else we would have left.

But now, this is a deliberate attack and done despite the fact that he's been public, he put the U.S. flag in the school he built. He wrote in Hebrew, "Please do not bomb".

And what happens? They bombed the school right where the sign is.

SCIUTTO: Yeah, that was bombed just days before. And we should note that the school had an inscription on the wall that says please don't bomb in Hebrew.

Tell us how your family keeps going on despite a loss such as this and despite the risk and despite what you believe was a deliberate strike here.

ALMADHOUN: It's a lot of grief and mourning. He is our second brother to be targeted. Our first brother died nameless and faceless. Mahmoud has been shown a lot of love, a lot of people across the globe for his heroic action to make soup and bread for folks.

We continue to serve our neighbors because if we don't cook, we don't eat ourselves. So we continue to run three soup kitchens in north Gaza through the Gaza soup kitchen. My family runs a few soup kitchens in south Gaza, too, but it's hard. You know, the only thing we changed, we just put a big poster of Mahmoud and we said "in memory of chef Mahmoud" and people just read, recite something or just see a little whisper a prayer for him, because this is our baby brother, you know?

[15:40:04]

He should not be six feet under. He should be really serving and providing meals for people and with his seven kids, the youngest is ten days old.

SCIUTTO: What do you believe Israel's plans for Gaza -- for Gaza are going forward.

Unfortunately, for more than 430 days, we have not seen anything positive, even humanitarian aid is restricted. We've seen at least 190 U.N. buildings being targeted.

We've seen a lot of NGO's, not just U.N. organizations Save the Children. It's awful it seems that the north of Gaza is being in the way to be depopulated, to be used as a bargaining chip.

There seems no clarity from the Israeli side what their policy is. The one thing that's consistent is that the Palestinians in Gaza will continue to suffer. And I have two less brothers by the time this ends, and I hope I still have one remaining brother, I pray to all the gods out there to keep him alive, to keep him safe.

SCIUTTO: There will be a new U.S. president, as you know, a little more than a month. Do you believe that President-elect Donald Trump will give Israel more or less freedom to carry out military operations in Gaza?

ALMADHOUN: In my personal capacity, I imagine his -- he wants it to go away the conflict or the war or --

SCIUTTO: To end.

ALMADHOUN: -- to end, and anything that will bring an end. He's been saying that. I'm disappointed in the current administration because, you know, they could do better. But unfortunately, it doesn't seem that our lives have value at this point. And anybody who wins this ceasefire would be a champion with a ceasefire would be a champion in my book and my family will salute them.

SCIUTTO: Well, Hani, I'm so sorry for the loss your family has suffered. You have suffered personally, and we hope that that somehow there will be some positive developments to honor Mahmoud's memory.

ALMADHOUN: I hope so. I hope so. Thank you for having me.

SCIUTTO: Well, coming up, the road ahead for Syria, for whoever leads the country into its new age. A lot must be done now to consolidate power. The former U.S. ambassador to Syria, Robert Ford, he will join me live on this and more.

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[15:45:14]

SCIUTTO: A new chapter is beginning in Syria where feelings of celebration are mixed with deep, deep uncertainty following the collapse of the Assad regime after 50 years in power.

U.S. President Joe Biden described the fall of the regime as, quote, an historic opportunity for the long suffering people of Syria to build a better future. But he cautioned, it was also a moment of risk in the region. There are many pressing questions about how Syria will be governed going forward, given the wide array of rebel groups with differing ideologies and interests.

Joining us now is Robert ford. He was the last U.S. ambassador to Syria, leaving the country in 2012 when the violence escalated there. Ambassador, thanks so much for joining us.

ROBERT FORD, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO SYRIA: My pleasure to be with you.

SCIUTTO: You have a long history in Syria serving there in the region, analyzing the region. And I wonder, could you ever have imagined this?

FORD: No, and frankly, it appeared to me as recently as a month ago that the Syrian regime, while weak had a firm enough control over most of the country that it seemed like the civil war, little by little, was winding down.

So the shockingly fast collapse of the Syrian army was a big surprise to me. Big surprise to many other analysts, too, I think.

SCIUTTO: No question. U.S. intelligence agencies too, it seems.

I wonder -- listen, regimes have collapsed in the Middle East before, through different means. Of course, you have the fall of Saddam Hussein that with U.S. military intervention. But I'm thinking Hosni Mubarak at Tahrir square in 2011.

And what follows is far from certain. And it's not certain that what follows is necessarily better or more stable or better for the people. And I wonder what future you envision for Syria now?

FORD: Well, first, the fall of the Assad regime is itself I think, a very happy thing for Syrians, and the desperate efforts to rescue people out of this underground Saydnaya prison complex is just one example of the horrors of the Assad regime inflicted on its own people. But going forward there are many, many divisions within both the Syrian armed opposition and the Syrian political opposition.

And its one thing to fight a common enemy together, it's a different thing to build a political process and work together politically. So now, we're going to see if Syrians are up to that task. Now, I would like viewers to know that Syrians have followed very carefully the problems of places like Iraq and Libya.

They're not stupid. They know that things could go horribly awry. That's not to say they'll avoid it. I think were all waiting to see.

I just don't want to say it's impossible that they'll find a way forward to build a better Syria.

SCIUTTO: There are so many players internally and externally. I mean, you think of the ongoing internal conflict between this rebel group that is now led to the Assad regime's collapse. But you still have Kurds controlling the northeastern portion of the country. Then -- then you have the outside players. Turkey with its influence, Iran having lost its proxy there, Russia still with a military presence not clear where that goes. The U.S. has interests there, forces on the ground.

What is the process to create some sort of discussion -- I don't want to say it's a negotiation, but a process for the way forward?

FORD: Well, I would think it would look something like this. First, you would have security and let me say that again, security which we did not have in Baghdad when the Americans brought down Saddam Hussein and there was a massive amount of looting and just was chaos for weeks.

So the good news is from Syria that doesn't seem to be happening. There has been some looting, but nothing like the scale of Baghdad. There is security.

Second, there was no hand off when Saddam Hussein fell. His government ministers and the bureaucrats just all ran away and everything came to a halt in Iraq in 2003. That's when I was there.

In Damascus today, the outgoing prime minister of Saddam -- of Bashar al-Assad's administration met with one of the main armed opposition leaders and his civilian administrator from northwestern Syria for a handoff of government functions and government orders. That is a step we did not see in Iraq.

[15:50:02]

We did not see it in Libya.

So I'm hopeful as a first step. But the way in which this new prime minister was appointed does not seem to have been the result of an inclusive consultative process by this one armed faction and so I think there's a long, long way to go.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. I mean that meeting, it seems so normal, right? But, of course, how this took place was not a normal transfer of power here.

What are U.S. interests in this beyond the fact that it has those hundreds of forces that remain there to fight against ISIS? And we saw those airstrikes against ISIS just in the last 24 or 48 hours by the U.S.

Does the U.S. want to stay on the ground in Syria? Does the U.S. have an influential role in helping mold next steps there?

FORD: Well, first, I'm not in the Biden administration, so I can't tell you what it plans to do.

But what I would say is, I think very reasonably, the number one concern is the safety of our roughly 900 American soldiers still in eastern Syria. And there are also American citizens working as contractors in the logistics to support those 900 soldiers. And their safety must be the number one concern.

Going forward, the future of those forces I think is a question mark. In the past, they had brought down the Islamic State conquered all of its territory back in 2019. So it'll be five years in March, and for the last five years, they've been chasing remnants of the Islamic State. ISIS, almost a kind of a whack a mole game. Recruitment into ISIS is a challenge. The Americans work with the

Kurds to try to control and achieve the enduring defeat of ISIS. I don't think the Kurds are the ideal partner frankly.

With the rest of Syria, more broadly speaking, the Americans don't have a critical national security interest it's not like China and the Far East. Frankly, it's not like Ukraine and NATO in Europe. I would put it farther down on the scale.

But we do have interests there, but we don't have a lot of influence. We don't talk much to the armed groups. This leading group is on the American terrorist list.

SCIUTTO: Yeah.

FORD: HTS it's called. Its leader named Jolani. The Americans don't talk to him or them at all. They can't. He's a -- he's a designated terrorist organization.

So -- but even the other armed groups, we don't talk to very much. I think therefore, we need to try not to micromanage whatever political process they develop in Damascus. It's usually not good for foreigners to do that anyway.

But in this case, the Americans, in a sense, don't have much leverage. So it would be good, though, to be talking to all of the groups. And I emphasize the word all of the groups if only because, right now, in the wake of the fall of the Assad regime, things are fluid, things are in a state of flux.

And that's when you often have the most influence over events like right now.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. Well, we'll see if folks are taking action. Of course, taking part -- taking place during a transition of leadership here in this country. We'll see how it plays out.

Robert Ford, thanks so much for joining.

FORD: Yeah my pleasure. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: And we'll be right back.

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[15:56:13]

SCIUTTO: Thanks so much for joining me today on a busy news day. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.