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More Mystery Drone Sightings In New Jersey, New York And Connecticut Area; Woman Who Accused Duke Athletes Of Rape Now Says She Lied; Interview With Representative Gerry Connolly (D-VA); ABC News Settles Defamation Lawsuit With Donald Trump; American Couple Killed By Armed Gunman While Visiting Mexico; WAPO: Trump Interested In Privatizing U.S. Postal Service; Blinken: U.S. Has Had Direct Contact With Syrian Rebel Group; Blinken: U.S. Working "Intently" To Get Israel-Gaza Ceasefire & Hostage Deal "Over The Finish Line". Aired 4- 5p ET

Aired December 14, 2024 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

BENBROOK: -- doves carry messages of peace in the red room and finally in the state dining room, trees adorned with self-portrait ornaments crafted by students from across the country in hopes that each child can see themselves reflected in this year's display.

BIDEN: May our nation be blessed with peace and light this holiday season.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BENBROOK: And there are so many more little details spread throughout the tour. One of my favorite, you could say is the sweetest tradition, and that's the White House inspired gingerbread house. In keeping with the overall theme, there is a Starburst at the top of that gingerbread house, and then there is a little scene of ice skaters on the South Lawn.

WHITFIELD: That looks like a lot of fun. One of my friends just did that tour and she said, the ice, that little ice skating rink that you're talking about, the figurines were actually moving.

BENBROOK: The attention to detail is incredible throughout the whole tour. That being one of my favorites.

WHITFIELD: Oh, that's fun. All right. Julia Benbrook, thank you so much at the White House.

All right. Thank you for joining me today. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. The CNN NEWSROOM continues with Jessica Dean right now.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN ANCHOR: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jessica Dean in New York.

And new tonight, U.S. officials investigating weeks of unexplained drone sightings are downplaying concerns while also seemingly admitting something is going on. Federal officials keep saying the drones are not a threat to public safety, but they also admit the unusual nature of what's happening. And the lack of information is sparking outrage as more lawmakers and police report troubling sightings.

President-elect Donald Trump saying the public has a right to know or it's time to start shooting them out of the sky.

CNN's Gloria Pazmino is joining us now in New York.

Gloria, people in this area keep talking about this. They have a lot of questions. Elected officials have a lot of questions as well. Are we getting any more clarity on this situation?

GLORIA PAZMINO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jessica, you couldn't have said it any better. Something is happening without a doubt, and there's a lot of frustration about the lack of answers coming from federal officials. We now are getting a reported sightings across six different states. Maine is the latest state to join the list. We have gotten reports out of Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Virginia, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts.

And last night here in New York, a local airfield had to be shut down for an hour after reported activity. So a lot of frustration across the board from governors and local elected officials due to the lack of answers. And we just got off a phone call with federal officials who were briefing us on this ongoing response to the sightings. And frankly, we kind of walked away with more questions than answers after they both said that there is no danger posed by these reported drone sightings, but also that they do not know yet if it's anything malicious or criminal in nature.

So that sort of contradicts what we had heard from the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security in the last two days, that there was nothing to worry about, that this was likely a case of misidentified aircraft, that some of these aircrafts that are being spotted are actually just airplanes, and that people are mistaking them for drones. So a little bit of confusion right now in terms of what some of these federal officials are saying and the frustration that's being felt here on the ground by local elected officials as well as residents.

I want you to take a listen to Erik Peterson. He's a local state assemblyman in New Jersey who spoke with us about some of the activity that he himself witnessed in his community. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIK PETERSON, NEW JERSEY ASSEMBLYMAN, DISTRICT 23: They have all said that these drones have been flying over and surveillancing their installations. And meanwhile, we're being told that's not happening. Somebody is lying because it can't both be right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PAZMINO: The lawmaker also describing to us sort of the erratic nature of what he witnessed. He said that the objects appeared to fly upwards and downwards, sideways, backwards and forward, you know, not in the same way that typically an airplane flies when you see it up in the sky.

Also during this call, Jessica, we learned from federal officials that the FBI tip line has gotten more than 5,000 tips, but less than 100 of those have been deemed worthy, worthy of further investigative study. So it just shows you how much information is coming in and how much of a hard time federal officials are having kind of keeping up with it in terms of responding, but also putting out public information that would, at least for now, help to quell some of these fears that, like they say, there is no threat that is posed by these drones or anything that local communities need to worry about.

[16:05:15]

I think local officials here in the area are still trying to respond and trying to figure out what more they can do to make sure that people feel safe.

DEAN: All right. Gloria Pazmino with the latest on a subject a lot of people have a lot of questions about. Still, thank you so much for that.

Crystal Mangum, the woman who accused three former Duke University lacrosse players of rape in a story that gripped the nation back in 2006, is now admitting she lied. She made this confession on a podcast this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CRYSTAL MANGUM, ACCUSED TREE DUKE UNIVERSITY LACROSS PLAYERS OF RAPE: I testified falsely against them by saying that they raped me when they didn't, and that was wrong. I made up a story that wasn't true because I wanted validation from people and not from God. I hope that they can forgive me, and I want them to know that I love them and they didn't deserve that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: Those accusations led to charges, a media frenzy and public outrage. The case later unraveled. The three men were declared innocent a year later. The state attorney general at the time criticizing, quote, "a rush to accuse."

We're joined now by Casey Jordan, criminologist and behavioral analyst, and Joey Jackson, CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney.

Great to have you both here with us.

Casey, I want to start first with you. We just listened to that clip of Mangum's admission. What does this tell us about kind of where her headspace is and the psychological motivations behind false accusations like this one?

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, based on what she is telling us now, it seems to be that she has had, if you will, a religious experience. Everything is couched in her faith in God. She was seeking validation from people when really she just needed validation from God. And that the bible says she should seek forgiveness. And she asks for -- she apologizes and asks forgiveness from the men that she falsely accused.

Now I had an interview with Crystal Mangum. I met her in person in prison and interviewed her for season two of "Wives with Knives," an investigation show. So about 10 years ago, I walked through those actual events, and the one thing that she was -- it was clear that she had a lot of early childhood trauma, adolescent trauma of sexual assault. And I kind of walked away not sure if the allegations were true, but that it was clear something very bad did happen to her. So I am really heartened that she's coming clean and admitting that she lied and telling the truth.

But I'm also fascinated because I think that there was some kind of triggering event that happened there that made her perhaps substitute an earlier sexual assault in her life for what was happening at that Duke lacrosse party. From a psychological standpoint, that could easily explain it. It does not excuse it in any way, but it doesn't mean she made it up out of whole cloth.

DEAN: And, Joey, the fact remains that that accusation had long-term devastating impacts on those three young men who were accused. From a legal perspective, how did the failures in this case contribute to the rush to judgment and then this national scandal that we saw unfold?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. So true, Jessica, good to be with you and my friend Casey. Look, the reality is, is that lives are destroyed when there are lies that are put out there. Prosecutors have a great amount of power and authority, and this is a teachable moment for all concerned. Why? Because while we need to be sensitive to any claims that are made by people alleging rape, and we need to be very respectful of them, we need to be very thoughtful of them, the claims need to be vetted.

There's something called due diligence. We have to certainly, when you're evaluating allegations, look to that due diligence and you can't be out there in public destroying people saying things when you're the prosecutor and you haven't even spoken to the victim, alleged victim, nor has your staff. And, you know, so many things were upended with respect to these three young men. The coach gets fired.

You know, the district attorney ultimately was disbarred, which is the right call. But I think what it shows us is that prior to rushing to judgment, Jessica, as you asked about, we have to be patient and letting the evidence and the facts unfold before we really harbor and get into sides and say who's right and who's wrong. That's what course are for. And I would hope that things would come to court that are appropriate to be in court, and that district attorneys would exercise restraint before moving forward. Knowing all the facts, knowing the details, knowing the evidence, and then pursuing appropriate and proper claims.

[16:10:06] DEAN: Yes. And Casey, to Joey's point, you know, you have to think that any time something like this is revealed, that these were made up sexual assault allegations, it really just -- it hurts so much people who have already come forward who were actually sexually assaulted or people who may need to come forward in the future and be afraid that this impacts people's trust in their version of the story and them telling their truth.

What kind of impact do you think this could have going forward, or something like this?

JORDAN: It's such a good point that you're making, and I need to emphasize that we believe fewer than 2 percent of all rape allegations reported to the police are completely made up, confabulated. That means that 97 percent, 98 percent are true, at least in some respects. Even if they don't rise to the actual legal definition of forcible rape.

What this kind of takes away, because we also know that forcible rape of both males and females is the most underreported crime that we know about. So we can't let this have a chilling effect on the true victims of sexual assault, because we really do need them to come forward if we're really going to shed light on what an epidemic it is.

DEAN: Yes, yes, that's very true. And Joey, you mentioned the prosecutor's role in all of this and how they just -- it got out in front of them. And there were a lot of mistakes you think they made as well. What else? You know, I just like, I'm taking myself back to that case and it really did just take everyone. It had so much attention around it. Again, those three young men at the center of it were practically household names by the end of it. And it just really underscores what kind of impact this can have long term on someone's life who is falsely accused in this situation.

JACKSON: That's so true, Jessica. And it's for that reason, the long- term implications. I mean, lives are really destroyed and upended as a result of allegations that are made that are false in addition to prosecutors who are not doing what they need to do. And one of the things that was so disturbing about this case is that DNA evidence was withheld from the attorneys. There were lies that were told by the prosecutors.

There were evidence that was not really given, and there were photo arrays and a photo array you put a number of people in there such that you're sure or not sure. You can never quite be sure, but it doesn't, it's not unduly suggestive, right? You don't put the three people. These are the three people who are accused. And so at the end of the day, I think one of the things that needs to happen and it's happened in New York is where we have very briefly, these open file discovery laws where prosecutors turn over the files immediately.

We don't play hide the ball, show everyone the evidence, let it be vetted, let it be evaluated, and let's go from there. But before you even get there, let's bring claims to court after we've done everything we can to ensure and you're never going to be proof positive that these are the right claims we should be pursuing. And if there's inconsistent evidence, there's not corroboration. It needs to give you pause before you go full bore in destroying someone, upending just lives and really creating distrust in a system.

DEAN: All right, Joey Jackson and Casey Jordan, our thanks to both of you. We appreciate it.

JACKSON: Thanks.

DEAN: Always when we come back breaking news as a major TV network is settling a defamation lawsuit with President-elect Donald Trump. More about that.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:18:12]

DEAN: We are learning more today about how former House speaker Nancy Pelosi injured herself while on an overseas trip to Europe. A spokesperson telling CNN Pelosi underwent a successful hip replacement surgery earlier today and is said to be, quote, "well on the mend." Sources say Pelosi was admitted to a hospital in Luxembourg after she fell on some stairs. The 84-year-old was Medevacked by the U.S. Military to a major German medical center.

And of course, we're going to continue to keep an eye on this story. Have any updates for you as they become available to us.

Meantime, President-elect Trump is at the celebrated Army-Navy football game today just outside of Washington, D.C. A different Army- Navy matchup is happening just off the field. Trump's embattled pick to run the Pentagon Pete Hegseth will be at that game. Hegseth was in the Army National Guard. Florida governor and Navy veteran Ron DeSantis, whose name has also been floated, may be there as well.

Joining us now, though, is Democratic Representative Gerry Connolly from Virginia. He sits on the House Oversight and Foreign Affairs Committee.

Congressman, thanks so much for being here with us. I just want to start first --

REP. GERRY CONNOLLY (D-VA): My pleasure.

DEAN: As you all get ready to begin a new Congress. There's a lot of questions around Democrats and which direction you're going to go. A generational change. You are running to take over as the top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee against Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. And that's kind of been framed by Axios, actually, as a left versus centrist matchup. You being the centrist there. Would you say that's an accurate portrayal?

CONNOLLY: Well, I'm a progressive Democrat, a left of center Democrat. But my specialty is taking progressive ideas and thoughts and legislation and translating them into common sense, lunch pail, kitchen table kinds of issues and legislation.

[16:20:05]

And that's been very successful in my career here in northern Virginia. And we built the party into the majority here in northern Virginia with that approach in terms of narrative.

DEAN: And so there's also been reports that the former House speaker, Nancy Pelosi, has been -- is backing you and has been making calls on your behalf. Is that true?

CONNOLLY: I talked to Nancy just before she got on the airplane going to Luxembourg. She has been very helpful, and she's been public in her support for my campaign and my candidacy. And I'm so honored. I mean, here's this incredibly consequential person, maybe one of the most consequential speakers in the history of the United States, having her support and endorsement means the world.

DEAN: And, you know, it's interesting because a lot of this conversation about what comes next for Democrats does center around fresh faces, new generation, however you want to say it, a younger generation. You are obviously older than Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. But my question to you is, is it both about age diversity, but also is it just fresher ideas? Do you feel like you're able to present a new way forward for Democrats?

CONNOLLY: Yes, I really think that's a false narrative. And I think a lot of people in the media have fallen for it. If you look at the people being replaced, it's about capability. It's about whether they can continue doing the job. It's not about how old you are. We can't have some standard in the Democratic caucus that says you reach a certain age and your talent, competence, the gifts you bring to the table are going to be ignored.

The sweat equity you put in is going to be ignored. We can't do that. My -- I've never had my shot. I'm not an old bull to be replaced. I'm a new bull, I hope. A bulldog who will take the fight to the Republicans in a way that they have to respect and will propound the Democratic agenda in a way that will win us back votes and win us the majority in the midterms two years from now. That's my goal.

DEAN: Yes. And so I hear you in saying you're taking the fight to the Republicans. I am curious what you think that looks like. Is it similar to how Democrats acted and, you know, went about business when Trump was in the White House the last time? Do you think that there's a different way forward this time, as a Democrat who will be in the minority in the House as a party?

CONNOLLY: Well, Jessica, you know, I think the two words I want to use here are disciplined, very disciplined in messaging and picking the fights we want to fight, and we need to be strategic. We've got to be making sure that everything we do and say is translatable to that kitchen table, where voters live and contemplate, you know, the future of the country and how things affect their lives.

We were really good at doing that in derailing the entire impeachment effort on the Oversight Committee these last two years. It went nowhere, and we made them look stupid. I did the same thing working with Stacey Plaskett, the chair of the Weaponization Select Committee. Jim Jordan looked like an amateur. And the witnesses they brought forward, we made them look like what they were, misfits, grievance peddlers, people who really didn't have anything to say about the material charges brought forward before the committee. And it went nowhere. So we know how to do this if we're strategic and we're disciplined.

DEAN: And I do want to ask you before I let you go, you sit on the Armed Services Committee as well. This is --

CONNOLLY: No. No, I don't -- Foreign Affairs.

DEAN: Sorry. Foreign Affairs. Yes, you're exactly right. Foreign Affairs. And we have seen, it's now been a week since the Assad regime toppled. And I just want to get your sense of since in this last week, what we have seen, obviously, there's a lot of questions around who is going to be, the rebels that are now in charge, how they're going to run that nation.

What do you make of what you've seen in the last week and where you think this is headed?

CONNOLLY: So I think it's important to just put things in context. Revolutions in much of the Arab world never end well. You know, the promise of the so-called Arab Spring a few years ago, every single one of those countries ended up with more authoritarian leadership and the suppression of freedom. So we have to be careful. We have to be clear eyed about this.

But there is an opportunity in Syria, given the disparate militias and interest groups in the country, to maybe put together a coalition government that actually could work for the Syrian people.

I think there are winners and losers in what's just happened. Russia and Iran are the two biggest losers. Turkey is the biggest winner, and the United States is kind of been watching from the sidelines. We can play a role here, but it's not clear whether that's going to be dispositive or not.

[16:25:02]

So Turkey is a big winner and their influence on the future of the Syrian government is going to be something we've got to watch very closely. And that's why I'm glad Secretary Blinken was in Ankara talking both to the foreign minister of Turkey and to President Erdogan.

DEAN: All right. Congressman Gerry Connolly, as always, thank you very much for your time. We appreciate it.

CONNOLLY: My pleasure, Jessica. Thank you.

DEAN: Thanks.

Still ahead, the new details we're learning about a California couple's violent death during their trip to Mexico.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:30:00]

DEAN: Breaking news into CNN. ABC News anchor George Stephanopoulos has reached a settlement with President-elect Donald Trump in his defamation suit. The lawsuit stemming from an interview that Stephanopoulos did with Congresswoman Nancy Mace where he asserted Trump was found liable for rape in a civil case.

The network will pay out $16 million as part of that settlement and have to issue an apology.

CNN chief media analyst, Brian Stelter, joining me.

And, Brian, this is actually a lawsuit with ABC News, the network, and Stephanopoulos. What else can you tell us about this?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: That's right. It's not every day that you hear about a major network, a TV network, paying millions of dollars and apologizing to the president-elect. So this is a headline with real ramifications.

And as you said, it stems from an episode of George Stephanopoulos Sunday morning news program where he was talking with a lawmaker, I think it was Nancy Mace, and they we're talking about the E. Jean Carroll case. And George Stephanopoulos repeatedly used the word "rape," saying Trump was found guilty of rape, liable of rape.

Well, in fact, the accurate phrase to use is "sexual abuse." That is what the New York court found. But because Stephanopoulos kept using that "R" word, "rape," Trump filed a lawsuit. He filed a defamation suit.

We've talked a lot in recent years about people using the courts, trying to seek justice. Remember the Sandy Hook case against Alex Jones? Well, those defamation kinds of cases can also be filed by someone like the president-elect.

So Trump filed a defamation suit. It was working its way through the courts. ABC was unable to get it thrown out initially. And actually, in the next few days, Trump was set to be deposed in the case.

But ABC is avoiding going any further by settling. They're paying out $15 million, plus $1 million in attorney's fees. They say this is going to go to a nonprofit, basically to Trump's future library. That's the idea.

But maybe, most importantly, Jessica ABC is also apologizing, issuing a statement of regret. I'm just looking at my computer to get the exact wording here.

But ABC is going to say basically attach an editor's note to the Web site saying, it regrets and George regrets the statements.

Meanwhile, an ABC spokesperson tells me they are pleased to have reached this settlement, but it is very notable they are both paying out money to the president-elect and apologizing for the misstatements on the air.

DEAN: Certainly. And what else, Brian, does this tell us about the president-elect's possible strategy for dealing with the media going forward? We know he's very litigious.

STELTER: One word comes to mind. The word "emboldened." Trump and his team is going to be emboldened by this settlement by ABC. Because rather than fight this out any further, rather than trying to go to trial, ABC is choosing to settle.

What does that mean? Maybe that means ABC had embarrassing emails or text messages or other material that was going to make the network look bad. Remember, that's one of the reasons why FOX News settled against Dominion last year.

Sometimes networks settle because they don't want to drag it out any further and get embarrassed in the court of public opinion.

But regardless of ABCs rationale -- and they won't say why exactly they decided to reach this settlement -- it will embolden Trump and his allies, who, as you said, have shown they want to use the courts in order to achieve certain outcomes they want.

In this case, they believe justice is being done by holding ABC accountable. Others would say this is a form of lawfare where you're using the courts to tie up news outlets and embarrass them and cost them, in this case, millions of dollars.

I'm really struck, Jessica, by this -- the dollar figure, by the way, $16 million. That's -- that's a lot of money for any news outlet to be paying out. And that's going to have, I think, far reaching ramifications.

DEAN: Yes, it is a lot of money.

All right. Brian Stelter, as always, thanks so much. We appreciate it.

STELTER: Thanks.

DEAN: Today, a mass will be held in Mexico's Michoacan State for a California couple shot and killed on Wednesday. The State Department saying Rafael and Gloria Cardona were visiting family at that time. Their three children were not with them at the time of the attack.

And CNN's Camila Bernal is joining us now.

What more do we know about this? And also, Camila, where it happened.

CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So this is an area where we know is essentially plagued by gun violence, drugs and cartels. But what we know about this couple is that they were there visiting

family. They're from California, went to Michoacan on November 30th and went to that area of Angamacutiro.

And when they were there, they were driving Rafael Cardona's brother- in-law's van. Unfortunately, Gloria was killed right at the scene. Rafael was taken to the hospital where he shortly died.

And officials saying that they have three children. They were not with them at the time of the attack. We know that two of the children are minors and they are with extended family in Michoacan in that area. And we also know that the State Department is in touch with their adult daughter.

Now, according to local officials, Rafael's brother spoke to them, explaining this. His brother-in-law is a Mexican official in that area, a government official, and they we're again driving his van.

[16:35:07]

And this is actually a government official that took his job after the predecessor was kidnaped and killed in that area.

So Mexican officials not confirming the motive behind the shooting, but it is clear, as I mentioned, that this is an area where you have gang and cartel violence.

It's also an area where you grow a lot of avocados. And according to a report by Insight Crime, this area where you grow a lot of avocados, you also have traffickers who are forcing the local farmers to grow marijuana and other drugs.

Michoacan, also a very violent area, because it actually has more than or about the double the homicide rate of Mexico as a whole. And Mexico as a whole, one of the most violent in the in the nation, really, and one of the highest homicide rates in the world.

So again, just really staggering statistics when we're talking about Mexico and Michoacan and where these people died -- Jess?.

DEAN: Certainly.

All right, Camila Bernal, thank you for that reporting.

President-Elect Trump may want to give more control of the postal service to private companies, but what would that mean for the system a lot of us use almost every day? We're going to explore that ahead in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:40:42]

DEAN: New reporting from "The Washington Post" this evening suggests President-Elect Donald Trump is considering privatizing the United States Postal Service. Now, this move could transform the shipping industry as well as

business supply chains. Currently, the U.S. government subsidizes the USPS.

Joining us now is "Washington Post" congressional economic reporter, Jacob Bogage.

Jacob, thanks so much for being here with us.

I just want to start first with why Trump wants to privatize the postal service. What his thinking is around this.

JACOB BOGAGE, CONGRESSIONAL ECONOMIC REPORTER, "THE WASHINGTON POST": So what we know about Trump's attitude toward the postal service kind of is an evolution through time.

If we look back in his first administration, it was basically animus toward Amazon and toward Jeff Bezos and my employer, "The Washington Post," which he perceived to be a political enemy.

And so by attacking the postal service, he felt like he could go after his enemies.

This time around, it seems like things have moved a bit. And this really has to do with the profit and loss of the postal service. This is not a profitable enterprise.

It's going to lose $9.5 billion in fiscal year 2024. It's going to lose more in 2025. And as President Trump and his non-governmental Department of Government Efficiency look for cost cutting, this is an area that we can report they've circled in on.

DEAN: And in a recent piece you write, quote, cuts to the postal service could upend the trillion-dollar e-commerce industry, hitting small businesses and rural consumers.

Walk us through how this could impact the everyday American. Because, you know, look, we live -- I live in a city. A lot of people don't. They live in rural America, where the USPS delivers them things like medicine and other things. How might this impact them?

BOGAGE: Gosh, such a great question in so many ways. Rural America is not a profitable place to deliver pretty much anything. But that's the reason we have a postal service, because a private company is going to say I'm not going to deliver that package over the hill and around the bend. It's going to cost me money.

But the postal service, through its universal service obligation, has to go there. So these private shippers, think Amazon, FedEx, UPS, DHL, you name it, they need the postal service to take on these rural routes.

The other area to look is small businesses. Small businesses look at the postal service as their go-to shipper because they go everywhere, because they're cheaper, because they are in everybody's town, even small towns. And FedEx, UPS, that's just not their business. That's the backbone of the U.S. economy. Small businesses and suburban and rural consumers.

DEAN: And so how would this even practically work? How would Trump begin to privatize the USPS?

BOGAGE There is a large menu of options here, and that's kind of what I've spent part of my last four years reporting about is, how would this break down?

One of them is through Congress. That seems unlikely because of the very narrow divisions in Congress, including the U.S. Senate.

Another is through privatization of what we call the middle mile of the postal service. So that's the folks that take the mail off one truck and put it on the other truck. That can be privatized pretty easily.

The other is just kind of leveraging the postal services finances. They're in really rough shape. Like I said, they're going to lose about $10 billion in the 24 fiscal year.

And so if you leverage their finances, the loans they need, the working capital, they need, like President Trump tried to do in his first term, you can extract a lot of concessions. That's a big vulnerability for the postal service.

DEAN: All right. It's going to be interesting to see this play out.

Jacob Bogage, thank you so much for talking us through some of your reporting. We appreciate it.

BOGAGE Yes. Go Navy.

(LAUGHTER)

[16:44:43]

DEAN: U.S. officials are moving quickly to make contact with the rebels that now control Syria as the Biden administration rushes to coordinate how the region will handle a sudden shift in power.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DEAN: Today, Secretary of State Antony Blinken confirms the United States has been in direct contact with the rebel group that entered Damascus about a week ago today.

The rebel group, HTS, is now in de facto control of Syria. It's been designated a foreign terrorist organization by the U.S. and others. Blinken is currently in the Middle East for urgent talks on Syria's future.

And joining us now is Wa'el Alzayat, a former Middle East policy expert at the State Department. He's also the head of Engage and the national coordinator for the American Coalition for Syria.

[16:50:05]

Thank you so much for being here with us this afternoon.

I just want to start first, broadly, how do you think the U.S. should best approach this group in this very delicate transition time, keeping in mind we still have hundreds of troops in Syria at this time?

WA'EL ALZAYAT, FORMER MIDDLE EAST POLICY EXPERT, U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT: Thank you.

I think the U.S. should be engaging directly at this point, given that all the other countries are. I believe we are engaging, but it seems that it's still indirect.

And we've got to look at not only helping the country with its transition, the political transition, but the economic one, because that's going to have an impact on the political situation.

The country's under a set of sanctions. There's a shortage of food, of housing, electricity. And you can imagine, we're seeing now an added pressure by those who are wishing to return, perhaps a few million people.

And so, right -- the time is right now for the U.S. and other countries to step in, establish that contact, and look for ways to support the Syrian people.

DEAN: Yes. And as we have reported, Secretary of State Blinken has confirmed that the U.S. is in direct contact with that rebel group, which is, again, something you're saying is the right move, you believe is the right move and what should be happening.

HTS has ruled over Idlib for some years now. What do you think we can take from their record about how they might rule the country more broadly?

ALZAYAT: Yes, look, in Idlib, they did actually a pretty good job with the governance compared to other parts of Syria, in terms of essential services, rule of law, but very heavy handed, no dissent. You know, this was not a western democracy by any stretch of the imagination.

But since the campaign began, as you saw the HTS leadership announced, you know, guarantees for protection of minorities, respect for women, as well as assurances even to some of the neighboring countries, like Jordan and Iraq.

And they have granted general amnesty to many soldiers of the previous regime and asked the bureaucrats to report back to work.

Very pragmatic. Clearly, they've learned from our experience in Iraq, where we disbanded the previous state to -- to great cost, I guess.

But look, we're still in the early phases of this. They have announced that in March, they're going to be looking to open up the political process for other groups.

And the leader of HTS, Ahmed al-Sharaa, has said that there will be elections. We don't know when, but these are all good signs.

And I think we need to keep testing it out, but also reciprocate by providing the support I mentioned.

DEAN: And there has been concern from the U.S., from others, that the chaos of a transition government could provide an opportunity for ISIS to reestablish a stronger foothold there. What do you think about that?

ALZAYAT: It's always a possibility. You know, the country is large and no one group right now among the opposition can control all of it, as well as provide for all the people.

So, you know, we can't be sitting on the sidelines and keeping the sanctions and saying, well, you are designated, and complain if ISIS reemerges. We have to make a choice here.

The interim government right now, or whatever you want to call it, is doing a pretty decent job. There is law and order. There is relative peace and security happening. There are some isolated incidents.

But this is not going to go on forever. The country right now is going to have a lot of people returning, and they can bring with them all kinds of nefarious actors as well as you can imagine.

And we still have also the situation with the Kurdish militias, the Syrian Democratic Forces in the northeast, that the U.S. is backing. That's in the space between those two groups.

And the SDF is watching over former ISIS families as well, in camps. That could also create a lot of instability as well if we're not too careful and are not supporting the Syrian people in this moment.

DEAN: I do want to ask you, zooming out to more broadly in the Middle East, about the Gaza, the potential for a Gaza ceasefire and hostage deal.

We know Secretary Blinken and U.S. diplomats have been pushing for that during this visit that he's on. U.S. officials expressing cautious optimism about this particular moment, saying they've kind of been almost here before, but that they're hopeful they can get it over the finish line.

And they've pointed to increased flexibility from Hamas in those negotiations. What is your sense with the Biden administration less than 40 days left? You know, I think we're at like 37 days.

Do you think this can get done while Biden is still in office?

ALZAYAT: Well, you know, we've had many false starts here. The war has gone on for too long, for over a year. It's been devastating for obviously, the Palestinians in Gaza and it's destabilized the region. We saw other wars spring up because of it. We have a ceasefire now in Lebanon. This is needed in Gaza. I think

it's possible. The big question is really, the Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu here, if he's willing to end it, and if Hamas is finally willing to release the hostages.

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There's a great opportunity here to turn a new page, to help the Palestinian people rebuild. And at a time where you have a completely different environment in the region, with the removal of Assad, the weakening of Iranian militias, and potentially helping the people of the region really rebuild their lives.

DEAN: Yes, it is. It is a very different Middle East than it was even six months ago.

Wa'el Alzayat, thank you so much. We really appreciate it.

ALZAYAT: Thanks for having me.

DEAN: New York's governor says, quote, "This has gone too far," after drone activity temporarily shut down a small airport outside New York City. This, as lawmakers pressure the feds to do more and share more about the mysterious drone sightings.

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