Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Federal Officials Face Criticism for Drone Response; New York D.A. Says Mangione May Stop Fighting Extradition Soon; RFK Jr. Heads to Capitol Hill in HHS Secretary Bid. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired December 16, 2024 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:00:00]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN ANCHOR: Dramatic new details about those mysterious drones seen hovering over the northeast. A critical military base forced to close its airspace.

Plus, Donald Trump promised to do everything in his power to, quote, hire American. But new CNN reporting shows his own businesses tried to hire more foreign workers than ever this year.

And later, Luigi Mangione might be ready to drop his fight to stay in Pennsylvania and return to New York to face charges in the CEO murder.

Hello. I'm Jim Acosta and you were live at the CNN Newsroom.

All right, eyes in the skies, anger on the ground this morning. There is growing frustration with the federal government and the lack of answers over the rash of presumed drone sightings over New Jersey and neighboring states. Federal officials say they pose no security threat, but more were reported this weekend on the East Coast, and some did cause some problems.

Stewart International Airport in Upstate New York had to shut down its runways for a short time on Friday in an Ohio drone activity forced Wright-Patterson Air Force Base to close its airspace for almost four hours. Here is a recording of air traffic controllers obtained by the military news website, The War Zone, discussing the UAS, or unmanned aircraft system.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Med Flight at Patterson Tower use extreme caution for heavy UAS movement on the base. Security forces is handling the situation.

All aircraft use extreme caution. Patterson Class Delta is now closed for heavy UAS activity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And joining me now to discuss California Congressman Robert Garcia is a Democrat on the Homeland Security Committee. Congressman, good to see you. Thanks for coming into the studio. We appreciate that as well.

What's the latest on this? What kind of information are you getting? Might you be getting more new information this week?

REP. ROBERT GARCIA (D-CA): I mean, what we know for sure, and then Secretary Mayorkas explained this over the weekend is that we do know that some of what people are seeing are airplanes. We know that. But we also know that some are actually drones. And so we know that drones are out there. They're highly unregulated. We've asked for a classified briefing this week from Homeland Security.

And I think what's really important here is that if you are in your neighborhood, you're a resident, you're in New Jersey, you're in California, and you're seeing something in the airspace that seems unfamiliar to you, or maybe it's not the normal flight pattern that you're seeing, and you're concerned, those folks have a right to know what's actually in the air.

And so I think Congress has got to do a better job of regulating drones, and more importantly, the government has to do a better job of getting more information out to people. People deserve answers and we've got to ask those questions.

ACOSTA: And, Congressman, let me ask you a little bit about this classified briefing that you're expecting. I mean, if the government comes out and says, okay, it's X, Y, and Z, but this is classified, you're not going to be able to tell the public what this is, and that might cause more frustrations. Does the federal government need to? Does the Biden administration need to put more information out there?

GARCIA: The answer to that is yes. I mean, first, what's really important is obviously our agencies, the FBI, Homeland Security, Department of Defense have said that we do not have a national security threat with these current drones. So, we know that. That's important to tell the public. But classified briefings also get us a lot of information, and it gives Congress the ability to pass laws, write legislation, and you do get some information that you're able to put out in the community and declassify. So, I do think that both the White House and certainly Congress have got to do a better job of getting more information out to the public.

I was a mayor of my city for eight years before I got to Congress this last term. When you're a local mayor and your community is saying, what am I seeing in the sky? I want to know what that is. People have a right to know and we've got to do a better job. Drones are not really regulated in the country.

ACOSTA: Yes. And, I mean, have you been hearing from any constituents out in California? We've been focusing on the East Coast. Anything percolating on the West Coast that we need to know about?

GARCIA: Look, we hear, and I have an airport in my community. We hear about things all the time. There certainly are drones. It's not just in New Jersey and New York, but in California and across the country. Drones are becoming more and more popular. But we've also got to pass smart legislation so that drones can be reported in the right way. Local communities, ports, cities need the ability to intercept drones.

Right now, there is no system for a commercial pilot to actually report whether it's drones or whether it's a UAP or something that they see that they don't know what it is, there's no actual system to do that. We have a bill in Congress to do that. So, there is legislation that's working its way through Congress, but we've got to get more reactive.

So, we're going to see the drone problem, by the way, is not going to get better. It's going to get worse.

ACOSTA: You can't ignore it. And this morning, we heard from a New Jersey mayor who says he witnessed the drone activity himself.

[10:05:03]

Let's listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR MATTHEW MURELLO, WASHINGTON TOWNSHIP, NEW JERSEY: These are vehicles we see in the sky. Many times, we'll see multiple drones. We'll see three, four, five at a time. They appear to be traveling in some type of grid pattern, whether they're mapping or videoing, we're really not sure.

But it is very bizarre. The state police told us that they have had anywhere from 4 to 180 calls a night. And once the sun comes up, they tend to go away, which is even more bizarre.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Yes. I mean, do you have any sense at all as to what some of these sightings are? I mean, some of these obviously airplanes or stars or people seeing the normal flight pattern into DCA. We saw some of those kinds of tweets over the weekend, people getting hysterical over that sort of thing. But you take this seriously. I mean, do you have any sense as to what some of these things are?

GARCIA: What's really important is that we treat this exactly right. Seriously, I'm not with conspiracy theories, but try to get actual real answers, get the truth out what's happening.

Look, people are seeing things that they can't explain. People are seeing drones that are engaging in bizarre activity or with different types of lights, perhaps. And so, yes, some can be planes, some can be explained. And there are drones out there that obviously have incredible capabilities to do really interesting things.

But the government needs to be able to document those and tell the public what's going on. If you are a private company in the United States and you are testing some kind of drone or you are participating some kind of activity in our airspace, we should be regulating that.

And so the White House and Congress has to get more engaged in this because people are going to start seeing more of these drones and are going to be concerned that people have a right to know what's going on.

ACOSTA: Well, and the White House had a press call on these drone sightings. FBI, Department of Homeland Security, Federal Aviation Administration all took part. Here's one quote from a DOD official saying, quote, this, historically, we've experienced many cases of mistaken identity where report reported drones are in fact manned aircraft or facilities.

Is that what a lot of this is? I mean, we heard Adam Kinzinger, one of our contributors over the weekend, saying a lot of this is just planes. Your sense of it?

GARCIA: Yes. I mean, look, a lot of them are planes. And so we already know that. We know that sometimes people report things that are planes. We understand that. But we also know that some are drones. That is just a -- that's a fact and that's something that --

ACOSTA: You don't write this off.

GARCIA: No, I don't. Homeland Security has been clear that yes, some are planes. Yes, sometimes people are reporting stars. That's also true, but sometimes people are reporting drones. And because we don't have all the information and we're seeing some things that people can't explain, we have to get those answers to the public. It's an important issue.

ACOSTA: And one of your colleagues, Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, she has weighed in on this and she is saying this. The government is in control of the drones and refuses to tell the American people what is going on. It really is that bad. Is that true?

GARCIA: I mean, I'm not going to certainly listen much to someone that believes in space lasers and all sorts of really bizarre conspiracy theories, which she does, but I think what's more important is that we give the American public answers and the truth. And I think the government has to do a better job of engaging and passing legislation.

ACOSTA: Is she -- but she's saying the government is in control of the drones now.

GARCIA: That's absolutely false. I mean, that's -- again, she says some pretty bizarre, crazy stuff.

ACOSTA: Okay. I do want to shift gears. Trump's pick to lead HHS, RFK Jr., as you know, is heading to Capitol Hill today. How concerned are you about some of his views? Obviously, you don't have a dog in this fight being able to vote on his confirmation, but he's a very vocal vaccine skeptic. Your thoughts?

GARCIA: Look, I think that Donald Trump has made a lot of dangerous picks, but I believe that this selection is by far the worst, most dangerous election he has made of the entire cabinet. RFK Jr. is a vaccine conspiracy theorist. He himself has caused major global outbreaks, as we all know in other parts of the world. He is trying, through his network of folks, essentially move science and our knowledge of medicine backwards.

I think what he's able to do with that department, the damage he can do to, for example, NIH, our Health Institute, the CDC, is extreme. Health and public health is so important for people to have security within their own families and communities. And I'm very concerned that he's going to move us backwards and put us decades behind.

So, he should be opposed by the entire Senate. And in my opinion, he's someone that pedals in conspiracy theories about public health.

ACOSTA: All right. Democratic Congressman Robert Garcia, thanks very much for your time this morning. We appreciate it.

New this morning, some of the president elects companies don't appear to be sticking with his campaign pledge. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT-ELECT: Under the Trump administration, we will build American, buy American and hire American. That's what we're going to be doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: CNN found that some of Donald Trump's own companies have actually increased their hiring of foreign workers.

Here's CNN's Sara Murray with that story.

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Our CNN investigation found that Donald Trump's businesses do use foreign workers.

[10:10:00]

In 2024, Trump Organization businesses were approved for 209 foreign guest workers. That number has nearly doubled over the course of the last decade. It is more than any other year on record, our analysis found.

And now these are people who are mostly cooks, housekeepers, that kind of thing. They come through the H2B visa program, and that allows for hiring foreign workers when there are not Americans who are willing, available, qualified, able to do this kind of temporary work.

Now, folks who think that the U.S. already has too much immigration, even legal immigration, look at these programs and say, these kinds of things could disadvantage the bargaining power of American workers, that companies could offer, you know, a higher hourly rate. They could offer other perks. They could look to other states to bring in workers to fill these kinds of seasonal roles.

But our team also spoke to a staffing company in Palm Beach County that pointed out that during the high season, if you are working in hospitality, if you are doing golf courses, resorts, that kind of thing, it can be really, really difficult to find the kind of help you need to staff these kinds of seasonal jobs. Now, we should point out that it's not just Donald Trump, it's not just Mar-a-Lago, it's not just his Virginia Winery that do this kind of thing. There are also several Trump allies that rely on foreign workers. Elon Musk, who Donald Trump has picked to streamline the government, is one of those. Another one is Howard Lutnick, Donald Trump's pick for commerce secretary. Subsidiaries run by his companies also rely on these foreign workers.

So, this is the kind of thing that, again, it's not just Donald Trump, it's several business leaders. And it'll be interesting to see if Trump can make good on his promise to hire American, even as he taps foreign workers for his own properties and his own businesses.

Back to you guys.

ACOSTA: All right. Sara, thank you.

All right, coming up, Luigi Mangione's high-powered New York attorney is already floating the idea of an insanity defense. Is that how he will fight the murder charge in the UnitedHealthcare CEO shooting? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:15:00]

ACOSTA: Luigi Mangione may be about to stop fighting extradition and start facing charges in the murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. This morning, Mangione remains in a Pennsylvania prison ahead of a scheduled hearing. But Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg now says Mangione may waive his right to fight being handed over to New York authorities as soon as tomorrow.

Joining me now, CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig and Forensic Psychologist Kris Mohandie.

Elie, to you first. I mean, I guess this might be happening fairly quickly. We might see Mangione back in New York.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, I think that's right, Jim, according to the new reporting that the D.A. has said he might waive extradition. What that means is you have two choices if you're arrested in another state here. Mangione's wanted in New York. He's arrested in Pennsylvania. You can fight extradition. That will take a few weeks, maybe a month or more, and it's very easy for the prosecutor to come in and make their showing. They don't have to show you're guilty. They just have to show this person who's in court, this is the same Luigi Mangione who we've charged. It's a very low burden. Surely, prosecutors will be able to make it here.

If they waive that, if they say, no, we don't need to challenge that, then, yes, he could wind up in New York and make his first court appearance within days or weeks.

ACOSTA: And, Kris, Mangione has now hired a former CNN Legal Analyst and former Chief Assistant Judge Attorney for the Manhattan D.A.'s office Karen Friedman Agnifilo to represent him. Here's what she had to say about this case just days before.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It looks to me like this -- there might be a not guilty by reason of insanity defense that they're going to be thinking about, because the evidence is going to be so overwhelming that he did what he did. And I hear what you're saying about being radicalized. I hear what you guys are saying. But as a former prosecutor in that office, I would be concerned that you have someone who is a valedictorian of his class, who's brilliant his whole life, he comes from this great family. I mean, something changed, right? Significantly, something changed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Yes, Kris, what do you think about that?

KRIS MOHANDIE, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think Karen's 100 percent right. Last week, I was basically saying the same thing, echoing the fact that you've got a valedictorian, poised, joyful at his address, known and loved by so many, good family, and then about six months or more ago, he goes off the grid, his mother files a missing person's report. People say that he's changed significantly at these health issues and so forth. His appearance is substantially different. There has been a deterioration in him that likely is mental in nature. And I do believe that the only play because of the overwhelming forensic evidence will be a mental defense of not guilty by reason of insanity.

ACOSTA: Yes. Elie, we all remember that video from last week when we saw Mangione being led out of that police cruiser or SUV, and he was shouting at the cameras, looking pretty, you know, out of his mind. I mean, what are your thoughts as a former prosecutor? How do you deal with this, I mean, what seems like a very strong likelihood that an insanity defense is going to be mounted here?

HONIG: Well, Jim, I think there are major problems with an insanity defense, as applied here. I agree. It might be better than the alternative, which is Luigi Mangione having to argue somehow that's not me. I don't think there's any chance of that. But I also think an insanity defense is a major, major uphill climb for Mangione.

You have to show under the law, under New York law, that the person does not understand the nature and consequences of his actions. He doesn't even understand what he's doing. Clearly, this guy understood the consequences of his actions. We know that because he had an elaborate escape plan.

[10:20:00]

If he didn't understand right or wrong consequences, he just stands there. He has no idea what he's done. Instead, he had a very carefully planned out escape plan.

And it's important to understand an insanity defense does not just mean a person was spiraling, a person was depressed, even a person was manic or a person had a really rough stretch of mental health. That's not enough to make out a criminal defense of insanity. You have to show that the person was so far gone. They didn't understand what they were doing and they didn't understand the nature of it.

ACOSTA: Yes. Kris, I mean, you can be mad about something and kill somebody in cold blood. That doesn't make you insane.

MOHANDIE: That's correct as well. And what Elie's saying is completely correct. A lot of jurisdictions, though, it's, you know, nature and consequences and wrongfulness. And wrongfulness will often have two components, legal wrongfulness, which clearly his actions show he knew it was legally wrong. The question I think will hinge if there is any aspect of moral wrongfulness at issue. That's where they'll try to address it, if that's a part of the New York's, you know, a statute for that. That's what this will boil down to.

ACOSTA: Yes. And, Elie, I mean, I will say, you and I've talked about this before, but we saw I think more evidence of this over the last weekend or so signs popping up in various cities. There was a traffic sign. I think that was hacked into in Seattle, all of these signs showing sympathy for Mangione. And I would have to be, you know, on the side of being very worried about a wayward juror, a rogue juror, a hung jury, if you get this in front of a jury in a courtroom, if I'm a prosecutor.

HONIG: Well, Jim, I was always worried about hung juries and even a normal case. But let me give you a couple of things that will mitigate against that here. First of all, the jury selection process, jurors will be asked. They're supposed to answer truthfully. Do you have strong feelings? Their social media feeds will be scrutinized. If they've posted some sort of pro-Luigi meme, they'll be out of there.

And then beyond that, once you get through that process, once you get to the actual courtroom process, it is really hard to nullify. It is really hard to look at a judge, to look at the lawyers, to look at overwhelming evidence that someone shot someone in the back and say, I don't care. I lied to the court to get on this jury and now I'm going to spring him.

So, I understand the concern. I think it's heightened in this case, but there's also important processes that guard against that.

ACOSTA: Is that possible, Elie? I mean, has that happened before you witness things like that, where you find out at the end of the case that a juror just completely lied his way or her way onto a jury and tanked the whole case?

HONIG: We've definitely seen instances where jurors have not answered fully truthfully and wound up on juries. There was a juror, I remember, Jim, you may remember, I believe it was the Derek Chauvin case who said he had never been to a rally against the police, and then it surfaced later that he had photos of him at one. So, you know, that can jeopardize a verdict, but not necessarily.

But I will tell you, the courts are pretty darn good. I mean, you have to be pretty arrogant and pretty aggressive to go in there and lie about what you've done and said, especially if there's proof to the contrary.

ACOSTA: All right, Elie and Kris, guys, thank you very much this morning. I really appreciate your insights, as always.

All right, coming in just a few moments, RFK Jr .is taking his Make America Healthy Again message up to Capitol Hill. Can he convince senators he's the right person to lead the country's top health agency despite his outspoken views on vaccines? That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:25:00]

ACOSTA: Robert F. Kennedy Jr. will be on Capitol Hill today trying to persuade lawmakers he's the right person to lead the Department of Health and Human Services. Kennedy's outspoken criticism of vaccines that have saved millions of lives could be a major obstacle for his nomination.

Let's bring in Dr. Peter Hotez. He's a professor and dean of tropical medicine at Baylor College of Medicine, as well as the co-director of the Center for Vaccine Development at Texas Children's Hospital. Dr. Hotez, great to see you again.

We had on all the time during the pandemic and you're such a great voice for sanity during those days. It's great to have you back on.

Your thoughts this morning seeing RFK Jr. up on the Hill today?

DR. PETER HOTEZ, PROFESSOR AND DEAN OF TROPICAL MEDICINE, BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE: Well, you know, my big concern, Jim, is his staunch attacks on vaccines. And I've been dealing with this now for a couple of decades because I'm not only a vaccine scientist and a pediatrician, but I also I have a daughter with -- my youngest daughter, Rachel, has autism and intellectual disabilities. And years ago I wrote a book called Vaccines Did Not Cause Rachel's Autism to counter all of the false information, including a lot of disinformation coming from Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and his people and his organizations. And so that makes me concerned.

And here's the reason why I'm concerned. It's because of the potential implications for the public health of the people of the United States. With that kind of rhetoric now, we are already seeing even before next year, we're already seeing a fivefold rise in pertussis cases from 2023 to 2024. We're seeing a fourfold rise in measles outbreaks from 2023 to 2024. We've got polio in the wastewater in 2022, meaning that we could see the return of polio as well. So, this is an extremely fragile vaccine ecosystem. And it doesn't take it much to push it over the edge.

And that's my concern that, with his being so aggressive against vaccines, this will cause major problems for the public health of our nation's children.

[10:30:03]

ACOSTA: Yes. And let's play some of the controversial things that RFK Jr. has said about vaccines. Let's listen, talk about it --