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Interview With Sen. Mike Rounds (R-SD); Fani Willis Disqualified From Trump Georgia Case. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired December 19, 2024 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: We're showing a little bit of it here now. It's been one of those mornings.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: It is.

ACOSTA: But there's a clip here, Pam, of Krypto the dog. There's a super dog in this movie.

BROWN: Oh.

ACOSTA: They're going to show it right here. If we don't run out of time and running into your program, I just want to show that.

But, anyway, I think this is him running towards Superman at the end. We're probably not going to get to it in time.

BROWN: Yes. Well, hopefully, we can see it. All right, well...

ACOSTA: But Krypto the dog, it looks like a really cool part of this "Superman."

And, as you know, Pam, I dressed up my little dog Duke as Robin of Batman and Robin.

BROWN: Yes. Of course I knew that. Of course I knew that, Jim.

ACOSTA: So, I'm already hooked.

BROWN: Everyone knew that, that you dressed him up.

ACOSTA: I'm ready to go.

BROWN: You're ready to go. You love Krypto. Can't wait to watch it.

There is so much news.

ACOSTA: So much.

BROWN: Drinking out of a fire hose of news this morning.

Jim Acosta, thanks so much.

ACOSTA: Good to see you.

BROWN: Good morning to you all. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Pamela Brown in Washington.

We're following two breaking news stories right now.

The man charged with murdering a health care CEO on the streets of Manhattan is heading back to New York. Luigi Mangione is on a plane after an extradition hearing in Pennsylvania. Sorry about the shaky video, by the way, folks. He faces 11 charges, including first-degree murder and murder as an act of terrorism.

But, first, a spectacular fall from grace? A Georgia appeals court is disqualifying Fani Willis, the state prosecutor who was leading an election interference case against president-elect Trump. The decision raises all kinds of questions about whether the case can move forward in court.

My panelist here.

I want to start with CNN chief legal affairs correspondent Paul Reid on the significance of this.

This was a state case, which is notable. And the question now is, is it over? Is it dead in the water?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, basically, it's on life support. I mean, they did not dismiss it, but they're going to need to find a new prosecutor and a new office to handle this case. That will be incredibly difficult.

And, as we know, Trump's legal team, they're always attacking prosecutors and judges to undermine their credibility. But, here, there was a very legitimate question, that the appeals court actually agreed with the Trump team here, that the appearance of impropriety in and around Fani Willis' romantic relationship with Nathan Wade, the special prosecutor she tapped to oversee this case, amounted to an appearance of impropriety.

So they wrote -- quote -- "While we recognize that an appearance of impropriety generally is not enough to support disqualification, this is the rare case in which disqualification is mandated and no other remedy will suffice to restore public confidence in the integrity of these proceedings."

Now, they added that they weren't going to impose sanctions or dismiss the indictment. I was just talking to a source close to this case and he said, oh, look, I mean, this looks corrupt, the secret relationship questions about Nathan Wade's billing practices.

While, yes, this is a win for Trump, might not sit well with some people, it is also, the source says, a win for the rule of law.

BROWN: So where does it go from here?

REID: I would expect that her office will likely appeal this decision. But, again, in the eyes of the public, for them to trust in the integrity of this case, that was already very complicated. This is a sprawling RICO case that she brought.

There were questions about whether the case would even survive to trial just based on the mechanics. But now it appears highly unlikely this case will ever go to trial. And that's so notable because just two years ago Trump's lawyers were telling me this was the case they were most concerned about, because a state case is outside presidential pardons.

BROWN: Yes, exactly. I think -- I was going to just make that point. You made it for me.

Look, the bottom line is, the federal cases against Trump are dismissed. How big of a victory is this latest development for Trump?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, I mean, go back to the emergence of the information in this case about Fani Willis and Nathan Wade and that whole hearing that we all sat captivated watching, because it was also the only case that we had cameras in the courtroom for, right?

BROWN: Yes, cameras in the court, yes.

CHALIAN: Yes, cameras in the court.

And so you saw like the heart of the case being struck in that moment from a public perception issue, and the politics of Trump being able to play yet again more the victim here, right?

And so that happened last year. Then go to the immunity ruling with the Supreme Court, come to his victory in the election, having the federal cases go away and Jack Smith winding down, it's hard to say that Donald Trump -- and I'm saying this about somebody who has 34 criminal indictment criminal convictions against him in the New York hush money case.

(CROSSTALK)

CHALIAN: It is hard to say he did not have sweeping political victory through this period of time of these four cases that he was indicted in, this issue of Donald Trump as a -- somebody who was sitting trial, enmeshed in these in the campaign for presidency, while at the same time trying to defend his position in these trials.

Politically speaking, as one after the other gets wiped away here -- and I realize it is not dismissed. I understand that.

(CROSSTALK)

REID: Technicality there.

CHALIAN: This has been a stunning political victory on top of his presidential election victory.

BROWN: I mean, it's really -- it's astounding really when you take a step back and look at how you just laid it out.

[11:05:04]

I want to bring in our CNN legal analyst Michael Moore.

Michael, were you surprised by this decision? What's your reaction?

MICHAEL MOORE, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, good morning. I'm glad to be with all of you.

I'm not surprised. I think the court sent a pretty clear message when they took the oral argument off of the calendar. I don't think you had to do much polishing of the crystal ball to realize this case was going nowhere and that they likely had made a decision.

And even looking at the 2-1 decision that was handed down here, they just simply found that the fact that the district attorney was using her powers at a time that she also had this appearance of a conflict, that that is -- was enough to tip the scales.

And they're not saying that for every case where there's ever an appearance of impropriety will they always disqualify a prosecutor, but they basically are looking here and saying, when you're exercising that authority, and you have this appearance, you're taking public confidence away from the court system.

And one thing that most judges will agree on, and that is that they want the public to have some confidence in the outcome of a trial or of a case and to have confidence in the system. So, now I think this case -- I don't know if there's enough electricity in the defibrillator to bring this thing back to life at this point.

We will see. The Prosecuting Attorneys' Council will make a decision. They will reach out and see if they can find a prosecutor who will do it. Who would want to do it? I mean, it'd be like being asked to be the man cleaning up after the horse parade in this case, because it is so tainted at this point that it really would be just cleaning up somebody else's mess.

And so you're not going to have a quick case if they appeal it. I mean, this case is likely to sit even if it lingers on for some period of time, because you have got now Trump has been reelected president of the United States or elected at least in this election.

So this is not a -- this is not something that I think will find much favor as prosecutors, who are individual elected officials, and they have a lot of discretion per district attorneys. It's not like their assistant United States attorneys or something. They have their own constitutional authority. They will make decisions about whether they're going to use their resources and time and staff and their political capital in each of their offices to try to undertake this case and move forward.

And I don't know that you will see much. We saw it with the Burt Jones case. The Prosecuting Attorneys' Council basically said, look, we're just going to handle it ourselves. It's been sitting here for so long, we will make a decision. And that case went nowhere.

BROWN: Yes, I mean, the ruling in this case makes clear that look perception matters. I mean, this is such a high-profile case. The stakes were so high. It does raise serious questions why she would engage in such behavior, given everything, right?

REID: Yes, this is not a place where you can afford to make a mistake. As I said earlier, the Trump team, that's their M.O. They attack judges. They attack the integrity of the overall legal system.

And when you're having a romantic relationship with someone who you tap to be a special prosecutor to oversee probably the most significant case of your career, perhaps a truly historic case, potentially. But now, based on the decisions that she made, very questionable ones, this case is unlikely to survive.

And one thing that I noted is, the appellate court dinged the lower court for not allowing in comments that Fani Willis made at a church when these allegations first surfaced, where she dismissed this all as sort of race-baiting. She suggested that people were -- are refusing to see -- quote -- "Nathan Wade as a qualified black man. What more can one achieve?"

And she didn't take any responsibility for this. She didn't admit to it. She just suggested that this was all about race. Now, that did not come in at the trial court level. But, here, the appellate court said that was a mistake. This too should have been introduced when they were assessing sort of how all of her conduct could taint this case in the public eye.

BROWN: Yes, what else are the political takeaways here, David?

CHALIAN: Well, think about how often we have sat next to each other in the course of the last two years as...

REID: I enjoy it every time.

(CROSSTALK)

CHALIAN: ... as Donald Trump was running. And we would say how the political and the legal were intersecting and that the legal strategy was also the political strategy throughout all of these trials, right?

So, not only the fight this out in the court of public opinion by attacking the prosecutors and the judges, but the legal strategy of delay, delay, delay also proved ultra-successful here because it allowed the presidential election to take place. Donald Trump wins it and the entire context of this all changes.

Hence, the federal cases go away and the like. So it is -- to me, the delay delay legal strategy, the political strategy of attack the prosecutors, you're just seeing that the ultimate success for Donald Trump and his legal team in these matters by employing those two strategies.

REID: And I want to know that they were given two enormous gifts, one wrapped and with a bow from the Supreme Court that waited seven months to weigh in on the question of immunity and then Fani Willis' own conduct, right?

They were very successful in their strategy, but, man, were they handed some real advantages by their opponents.

BROWN: Yes. All right. Final word to you, Michael, before we go.

[11:10:00]

MOORE: Yes, I just think we have to remember this is a problem of the district attorney's own making.

And it's not so much the -- whatever you think about the relationship. This is a situation where they overcharged the case. They took too long to bring the charges. Should have been brought on a very simple basis. And then, second, when all this came to light, she should have stepped back.

She could have recused herself early on and asked somebody to come in and take over as acting district attorney in the case. And so she did not do that. So here we find ourselves. And to say that the delay paid off I would be an understatement.

And as I say, I think the case for all intents and purposes is going nowhere. The other defendants don't have immunity. Remember, they're still charged. There's still people charged in it. But sort of the sexy part of the case, if you will, is gone.

And some prosecutor will have to decide whether now the juice is worth the squeeze to take these people in. And all the other defendants they have had, they have cut these nothing plea deals with. They give them probation or first offender or they're not going to have a criminal record.

And who wants to undertake and use the entire resources of your office now to come up with these little sort of nothing plea agreements or even if there was a conviction when they weigh it against the other plea agreements that have been made. They're just not a lot left to move forward with.

BROWN: All right, Paula, David, Michael, thank you all so much.

Coming up, accused murderer Luigi Mangione now headed back to New York. He is on a plane after an extradition hearing in Pennsylvania. We are live right outside that courthouse.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:16:05]

BROWN: Both a government shutdown and the speaker's job hang in the balance. Lawmakers are back on the clock on Capitol Hill, where they again find themselves under a tight deadline to avoid a looming shutdown. House Speaker Mike Johnson had put a bipartisan bill on the table this

week, but it was scrapped less than a day later by president-elect Donald Trump and, one could argue, Elon Musk.

The move has now left lawmakers at odds over plan B in order to make Friday's midnight deadline. And lawmakers say a lot of this could have been avoided.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I mean, are you frustrated with the president-elect?

SEN. KEVIN CRAMER (R-ND): I'm frustrated with his team to not have engaged sooner than this.

REP. STEVE SCALISE (R-LA): We're not there yet. We're still holding conversations with our members, with a lot of other folks too just to make sure that everybody's on the same page.

SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D-IL): Well, at this point, there is no other deal. And this compromise, this bipartisan compromise, I think, was sensible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: A lot to discuss with our next guest, Republican Senator Mike Rounds of South Dakota.

Great to see you, Senator. Thanks for your time on this busy day.

How likely is a government shutdown right now, given these new demands from Trump?

SEN. MIKE ROUNDS (R-SD): Well, we're not ready to give into a shutdown. We want to fix this.

We also recognize that the president-elect does not want to go into the new year way behind in terms of getting things done. Our goal is, number one, not to shut down government, if at all possible, second of all, to provide the next administration with the opportunity to start out with a clean slate.

Look, the House of Representatives clearly has some challenges in getting everything together. They have a very slim majority over there. Second of all, I recognize that they tried to put together a package, but a lot of folks on my side of the aisle I know that I have talked to were not necessarily happy with the way that the package came out to begin with.

I personally had already told my leadership team that same evening that I could not support it because of some of the policy items that had been included in it. So this was something that, once you started looking through these 1500 pages, there were a number of reasons why we would not support it. I think a clean C.R. is probably going to be one of the options on the

table. We will have a lot of other things presented to us. But a clean C.R. with some help for the farmers that are out there and, along with that, the disaster aid that clearly those folks down there desperately need, I think that's something that the president-elect would also like to see included in it.

The challenge will be on the debt ceiling itself. I do agree that it would be great to get that out of the way right now. I think the challenge will be in the House as to whether or not they can put together a team over there to get that done or included.

And then, finally, on the Senate side, that would take 60 votes as well to get done, which might be a real challenge. We're going to work our way through it. We will do the best we can. But I want this next administration to start out with a clean slate, get in, get the appropriations, actually start it on time, get them done on time and do something we haven't done in 20 years, which is to get our job done on time with regard to appropriations.

BROWN: I hear you when you say you want this next administration to start on a clean slate. But the bottom line is, as House Republican Mike Rogers said, a C.R. is complicated enough, getting enough votes for that, without the debt ceiling, which can take months to negotiate.

Trump wants that done now, both of them together. Do you see any scenario of both being passed before the holidays? If not, what is the path forward for Republicans right now?

ROUNDS: I will wait and see what recommendations there are, what alternatives or what strategies might be presented for that.

Look, the president-elect is a businessman. He understands the art of negotiating and so forth as well. Clearly, it would be better for America if we could get the debt ceiling completed beforehand, so that he can get started.

The challenge will be whether or not we have got the votes in the House to get it out of the House and over to the Senate. And then, once again, our Democrat colleagues look at that as a -- their ace in the hole. It's one of the reasons why the president would rather have it done before he gets into office.

[11:20:07]

But they also recognize that. And the real question will be, will they negotiate between now and then to actually find a path forward? This is going to be a tough one to get done.

BROWN: Yes, I mean, Trump has been outspoken, saying he wants that the debt ceiling to be on Biden's watch, not his, but the reality is you need Democrats to pass anything, right?

This was a bipartisan compromise on this funding deal. It had already been reached. And then Elon Musk slammed it. And now senators, Democrats, are raising concern about Musk as an unelected official calling the shots.

Here's Democratic Senator Dick Durbin. Let's listen. Then we will talk on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D-IL): Well, I will tell you, it's a serious mistake if we give that kind of authority and power to someone who is not elected and is going to dictate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So I want to note for our viewers, Trump then came out after Musk to publicly slam the bill. But what do you say to those concerns about Musk's influence here and what that could look like over the next four years?

ROUNDS: I recognize that it was the best deal that the speaker of the House could put together at that time. That's what he wanted to do, was to find a path forward.

For my -- personally, as I said earlier, I was already a no-vote on it for the reasons because of what was in this 1,500-page program. It was an omnibus. It was not an extension just for keeping the government open.

And I think that's where perhaps we're going to end up going, is a cleaner approach, but one that doesn't have a whole lot of policy stuff in it that would be detrimental to the next administration. So, look, we don't have a perfect option available to us here, but I think something closer to a clean extension.

And, once again, C.R.s are terrible. It would be better if we actually used the 12 appropriation bills that the Senate had on a bipartisan basis in the Appropriations Committee, actually been able to present. I think that would have been a lot better program to start out with.

Unfortunately, it's not available. The House has not had a chance to look at it. The House wasn't able to get their appropriations process completed. So, right now, the best thing, I think -- and it's just one alternative among others -- is starting out with a continuing resolution, as much as we hate that, because it doesn't allow us to make improvements this year.

But then the other thing that we do have available to us is reconciliation right after the 1st of the year, and we could perhaps do a number of items in reconciliation with regard to supplemental funding as well that could really help jump-start the next administration with some of the policy issues that they want to get started on immediately.

BROWN: But, again, Trump has made clear he wants a C.R. with the debt ceiling attached to it.

I want to go back to Musk. And I just would like to follow up on that question what you think about the influence he appears to be having here. Marjorie Taylor Greene just tweeted that she'd be open to supporting Elon Musk for speaker of the House. Your reaction?

(LAUGHTER)

ROUNDS: I don't tell the House what to do. I'm not sure anybody can. I'm sure, with 435 members over there, you're going to hear lots of different opinions. That's the way the founding fathers wanted it.

In the Senate, we take what they send us and we do the best to make it so it's actually viable and put it into law. But with regard to everybody's opinion, everybody over there is entitled to their own opinion, and I'm sure there will be 434 other opinions expressed as well.

BROWN: So the reality is right now, Senator, though, is that the government will shut down Friday at midnight if something isn't passed. Is this 11th-hour chaos a preview of what's to come over the next four years?

ROUNDS: Look, I think once we get a clean slate put together, I think we can get ahead of the game for the first time in years.

I know that members of the Senate on both sides of the aisle want to get back to regular order. They want to be able to go back home and say, look, we're getting our work done. We're getting it done on time. It only works towards the leadership's advantage when we run into a jam at the very end of the year, where they turn out a 1,500-page bill and we don't get a chance to see it or comment on it until we get an up-or-down vote on it.

We can't do that anymore. We have been saying that. Unfortunately, it works better for a leader if they can put their own pieces into it and if they have a chance to craft what they want to get into it. And that is extremely frustrating for the vast majority of the members of the Senate.

I suspect, for the House, it was very frustrating as well. So yes, I know that it was the best they could do at the time. They were working among the leadership to craft something that could get through. It's better if we start out with a clean slate and we get our work done on time this next year. That's our goal.

That's what we want Senator Thune to be able to do. And we want him to be able to go back in and lay out the plans. We think that's a great approach to bring the committees back in, get the committees working and get something to the floor of the Senate where it can be debated. I think that's what the majority of the members really want to have happen.

BROWN: All right, Senator Mike Rounds, thanks for joining us.

ROUNDS: Thank you.

BROWN: Still to come: Right now, the man suspected of killing a health care CEO is on a plane back to New York, and we're learning he will appear in federal court today.

[11:25:00]

A live report up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, we have some breaking news coming in the Manhattan murder of a health care CEO.

Suspect Luigi Mangione is on his way back to New York as we speak. This is a new video of him being loaded into a black SUV. He's still wearing his orange prison jumpsuit there. Mangione appeared calm, unlike the outburst we saw from last week at that same Pennsylvania courthouse.

And this is him right here being loaded onto the plane that is now taking him back to New York.