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Drone Fears; Elon Musk Targets DEI; Luigi Mangione Headed to New York. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired December 19, 2024 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: And this is him right here being loaded onto the plane that is now taking him back to New York.

This week, a Manhattan grand jury indicted Mangione on 11 charges, including first-degree murder and murder as an act of terrorism. And sources tell CNN that he will also face federal charges later today.

So, let's break all of this down. CNN's Danny Freeman is right outside the Pennsylvania courthouse and, in New York, CNN legal analyst Elie Honig to help us better understand the legal side of this.

Danny, you were in the courtroom. How did things unfold?

DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, frankly, Pamela, if it wasn't for the massive amounts of media, the massive amounts of law enforcement and, of course, protesters and curious citizens, it was actually a pretty normal hearing today in this Pennsylvania courthouse behind me and really went as much as it was expected to go.

Now, of course, the headline is that Luigi Mangione waived his extradition. But what happened first was a 10-minute hearing, less than 10 minutes, really, on those lesser Pennsylvania charges. His attorney waived the preliminary hearing after receiving the police support, which detailed his arrest at that Altoona McDonald's not too far from here.

And then, Pamela, we waited about an hour as all the attorneys hashed out the language of the extradition waiver back in judge's chambers. And for that entire hour, we actually got a good look at Mangione because he was basically sitting by himself -- himself, waiting at the defendant's table for that entire time.

He was clean-shaven. He was cuffed. He was in that orange jumpsuit, as you noted. What was interesting -- what came to my mind, Pamela, is that he was incredibly calm and, frankly, seemed almost relaxed during the duration of those hearings. I was in court with him a week ago, when he was first apprehended here in this area of Pennsylvania.

He seemed frazzled. Then, the following day, of course, he had that outburst that we all saw. There was none of that today. He only spoke in court very shortly when directly addressed by the judge. And, again, he did seem -- in my opinion, he seemed calm. In the end, his Pennsylvania attorney said that he was confident that

this waiver of extradition would not jeopardize his defense ultimately and that the waiver was actually -- quoting the attorney now -- in his best interest.

But I want you to take a listen to what the DA of Blair County said when it came to why this process really went fairly smoothly.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE WEEKS, BLAIR COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA, DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Well, he committed crimes in Blair County. He's charged with committing crimes in the state of New York. They are allegations at this point, but we're not in the practice of just dismissing charges simply because someone has more serious charges somewhere else.

That might be an older school approach. It might be a little antiquated, but I might be both of those things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FREEMAN: Now, Pamela, what was amazing, basically, as that DA was speaking in the basement of the courthouse, we were outside the courthouse over in the back and we saw Mangione really just minutes after that court proceeding ended be taken into a black SUV, as you noted, with New York plates driven by New York Police Department officers.

And he was taken away to the airport. He is now in the air on his way to face these new murder charges coming from that larger indictment earlier in this week back in New York -- Pamela.

BROWN: All right, Elie, let's go to you.

Are you surprised he waived extradition so quickly after fighting it initially and hiring that Pennsylvania attorney?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Not surprised, Pam. Most defendants do waive the extradition process, because it's so easy for prosecutors to show.

They don't have to show that the person is guilty. They just have to show we have the right person. The person sitting in this courtroom is the Luigi Mangione who we have charged. I think it's important to clarify now with this new reporting that Danny just relayed that there are expected to be federal charges and an appearance in federal court today.

Mangione is now looking at three separate sets of charges. The first one, the least important one, we just heard the police officer talking about that, are the state-level charges in Pennsylvania relating to possession of the gun and possession of a fake I.D. That's number one.

Then there are two separate, it sounds like, sets of charges here in New York City. There is the state-level charge for first- and second- degree murder, which was lodged, indicted a couple days ago. And now, according to the new reporting there is a separate federal charge. We will learn the exact nature of those presumably later today at that hearing.

So, Mangione is facing two separate, one federal, one state, sets of murder charges or in the federal case charges of other federal crimes that resulted in death of a victim.

BROWN: All right, so tell us more about his appearance at federal court today. What can we expect?

HONIG: Yes, so a judge will be assigned to the case. That is done randomly. There's a wheel. There's a literal wheel. It looks like a bingo wheel that they spin around and pull out the name of a judge, and that is who the case will be assigned to.

At that point, Mangione will be arraigned. He will be advised of the charges against him. He will enter a plea. He will certainly enter a not guilty plea. They will make sure that he has an attorney. We, of course, have the reporting that Karen Friedman Agnifilo, our former colleague here at CNN, will be representing him. They will make sure she's there, she's on the case.

Technically, they will discuss bail. He's not getting bail. He's not going to be released. But that's also part of the process today. And then, Pam, they will set the schedule moving forward. When does the prosecution have to turn over its evidence, called discovery?

[11:35:07]

They may set a trial date. Sometimes, you will set a trial date at the initial appearance. Sometimes, that will be set at some point in the future. But a key sort of laying out of the schedule for the months ahead, that's what will happen later on today in federal court and presumably some time soon in state court as well.

BROWN: So, before we got the confirmation that he would appear in federal court, his attorney responded, saying -- quote -- "The federal government's reported decision to pile on top of an already overcharged first-degree murder and state terror case is highly unusual and raises serious constitutional and statutory double jeopardy concerns. We are ready to fight these charges in whatever court they are brought."

So, Elie, you were a federal prosecutor. In your opinion, does this merit federal charges and what are you likely to see on that front?

HONIG: I was a state prosecutor too, so I can definitely see this one both ways.

BROWN: There you go.

HONIG: So the defense lawyer, Karen Friedman Agnifilo, has a bit of a point there, a fair point. There's not going to be a double jeopardy concern.

It may seem counterintuitive, but a person can be prosecuted simultaneously in both in federal and state court because they are what's called separate sovereigns. The Supreme Court said that's OK.

But if you look at DOJ's justice manual, which is the internal written guidance to all federal prosecutors, there's a section that in there. It's not binding, but it says, generally speaking, if someone's already charged with a crime in a state court, we don't need to pile on. We don't need to add our own charges on top of that in the federal courts, unless there's exceptional circumstances.

And so if and when there's an announcement, I would be interested to hear what the U.S. attorney says are those exceptional circumstances here. It could be the nature of the murder, the brazenness of it, perhaps the terroristic aspect of it, as alleged.

So it is unusual to see federal charges piled on top of state charges, but it does happen sometimes, Pam. I mean, in recent memory, Derek Chauvin, the police officer charged with murdering George Floyd, was charged both in the state in Minneapolis -- and in the state of Minnesota and then federally as well. So it does happen in exceptional cases.

BROWN: All right, Elie Honig, thanks for helping us better understand, as always.

HONIG: Thanks, Pam.

BROWN: Well, Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy, the two billionaires that Trump has tasked with slashing government waste, they now say that the first thing, our sources are telling us, is -- on their chopping block is spending on diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives. That's one of the first things that they want to tackle.

CNN's new reporting with myself and my colleague Rene Marsh up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:42:06]

BROWN: Well, as concerns grow about the extent of Elon Musk's influence on the incoming Trump administration, we're getting a clearer picture of his war on DEI, or diversity, equity and inclusion.

The world's richest man, along with the Vivek Ramaswamy, appears to set to try and purge DEI from agencies across the federal government. That's what sources are telling us. It's part of their DOGE, or Department of Government Efficiency agenda, one source telling me -- quote -- "Anything having to do with DEI will be gone."

But just how realistic is this broad promise and how will it look in practice?

My colleague and co-reporter on the story, Rene Marsh, we have been digging on this.

And through our reporting, Rene, we really came to understand that wiping out DEI initiatives is really easier said than done. It's a Herculean task and that's partly because tracking DEI in the federal government is nearly impossible.

RENE MARSH, CNN GOVERNMENT REGULATION CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely.

And the Biden administration really leaned into this, these DEI programs and expanding them throughout government. And DOGE sees this as a source of huge savings when you talk about cutting government spending. But DEI is so deeply ingrained in the workplace culture, completely rooting it out as you point out may be extremely difficult, because when you look at these budgets, some of them do have clear line items for DEI programs, training and initiatives.

But there are other efforts that come under the umbrella of DEI that don't have a price tag, that aren't isolated. For example, at HHS, they make sure that they consider equity when they are talking about health equity and access to vaccines, also diversity in patients who they include in their cancer clinical trials.

Those are things that are really hard to isolate and peel out when you're looking at where to chop and how to chop savings and spending across the government on these programs, Pam.

BROWN: Yes. And as you point out, some agencies are clear with line items. Others aren't. Several agencies we found didn't have clear line items in the budget for DEI, but those that did, tell us a little bit more about how much money they're requesting for DEI initiatives and how many employees touch this area of government.

MARSH: So, to your point, I mean, these agencies aren't required to report the overall cost that they're spending on DEI. But we did the work of going directly to these agencies, even looking through their requested budgets to get some sense of how much money is being spent on these programs.

And we want to put out there this is not a comprehensive list. This is not the full scope of government spending on DEI, but it does give you an idea.

So, we found -- we have a graphic here. HHS, Health and Human Services, they requested $113 million. That's for fiscal year 2024, and that was for training for diversity. The Department of Labor, you see there $515,000.That request was to hire two full-time employees and also to support other DEI programs at the agency.

[11:45:05]

And then the State Department, we know that they requested some $73.6 million. That was for DEI for 2025. And Department of Defense, they got back to us. They sent us data; $50.9 million is what they asked for DEI activities. And keep in mind, for that specific number, Department of Defense, that makes up for 0.006 percent of their budget, according to an agency spokesperson.

BROWN: Just very quickly, I mean, critics of this effort by DOGE say, look, this is misrepresenting how many people and who's going to be impacted, and there's a reason why these initiatives are put into place. MARSH: Yes, and Republicans will say, we're not against diversity. We

just don't think we should be spending money on these programs and these offices.

BROWN: Right. Right.

MARSH: But this stands to -- if they make good on their promise of wiping it out completely across government, this impacts a lot more Americans than many may realize.

I mean, the Biden administration expanded DEI to also include people like women in the workplace, the pregnant women, military spouses, formerly incarcerated caregivers. Disabled vets are also under that umbrella of DEI. So when you talk about completely wiping out these programs, it's not just people of color. It's not just people within the LGBTQ community.

It is a wide swathe of Americans. And as one group said to me, at some point in your life, every American will fall under the umbrella of DEI and benefit from these programs.

BROWN: All right, Rene Marsh, thanks so much. Great having you on. Great reporting out the story with you.

So, ahead this hour, the impact of all the mysterious drone sightings. The FAA now says pilots are seeing a dramatic uptick of laser hits from the ground. I'm going to talk to a drone expert up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:51:45]

BROWN: Well, new this morning, the FAA has placed multiple drone flight restrictions over certain parts of New Jersey. The restrictions are largely aimed at limiting drone flights over power stations and infrastructure.

And this announcement comes as officials have repeatedly said there is no threat with the increased alleged drone sightings in the Northeast.

My next guest, Will Austin, is an expert in drone technology. He's president of Warren County Community College in New Jersey and founder of its drone program.

Will, thanks for coming on.

First of all, what do you make of these drone flight restrictions? Do you think that they're necessary?

WILL AUSTIN, DRONE EXPERT: Well, I think, at this point, with the way the public is seeing drones, that it's probably necessary to put up the temporary flight restrictions over areas.

The nice thing about that is when we talk about the drones that I personally witnessed over the last month, they're small recreational drones, small commercial drones, and they have a technology in it called geofencing. So they can stop the drone literally midair from entering into one of these areas.

And if you're already in the area, the propellers on many drones will not spin at all, so you cannot take off.

BROWN: Well, why has -- I mean, someone listening to this right now might say, well, why hasn't that been done before to prevent some of these incidents that are happening, like near Boston Airport and military bases?

AUSTIN: Yes, so there -- not every drone has that technology in it. We have to remember that drones have been around since before 2016, before there were even rules.

I was flying drones before Part 107 came out. And the other thing that people sometimes forget is that these are aircraft. They're -- we're calling them drones. And a lot of times you got them off Amazon or maybe, you get it at a Best Buy or Walmart or some other kind of store like a hobbyist store.

So they're often mistaken for toys. They really are not. They are aircraft that have to follow all the restrictions of the Federal Aviation Administration. And we have had drones in the sky for many years now with very, very few incidents. So most of the drone professionals or drone fliers out there are very, very conscientious of the rules.

And we maintain to this day the safest airspace on the planet. The FAA does a fantastic job of doing this. So we want to remember that it's been a month now since I first heard about the drones. No one has seen a large drone as described or at least not been able to provide evidence, I should say, for that. And the small drones have had very little incidences.

But with the media attention, we got a lot of people, I think, flying at night for the first time. And flying at night is much more difficult than flying during the day.

BROWN: And the FAA is saying that pilots are now reporting a dramatic increase in laser pointer hits from the ground since these mysterious drone sightings and since all this attention has been paid to it. How concerning is this?

AUSTIN: Well, to me, it's very concerning, and because if one of those laser pointers was to hit a pilot, especially on takeoff and landing, when it is the most hazardous for aircraft, it could affect their orientation. They could be disoriented, and it could affect their ability to land that plane or take that plane off safely.

So you don't want to point laser pointers at anything in the sky, especially this time -- well, ever. But think about all the people coming and going for the Christmas holiday.

[11:55:03]

We're about to end our semester here, as are many other colleges. A lot of kids are going to be flying home. You don't want to be doing this, because the drones that are in the sky right now have not -- there has been no evidence that they pose any kind of threat. And it wouldn't matter if they did.

Your laser pointer is not going to have any impact on that drone. The only thing you can do with that laser pointer is affect manned aircraft in a negative way.

BROWN: All right, important message there from you, Will Austin. Thank you.

AUSTIN: Thank you.

BROWN: And thank you for joining me today.

I'm Pamela Brown. You can follow me on Instagram, TikTok and X @PamelaBrownCNN. I'd love to hear from you.

Stay with us. "INSIDE POLITICS WITH DANA BASH" starts after a short break.