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Mangione Pleads Not Guilty to New York State Terror and Murder Charges; Mangione's Attorney Expresses Concern About Ability to Get Fair Trial; Matt Gaetz Seeks Restraining Order to Stop Release of Ethics Report. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired December 23, 2024 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning. You are live in the CNN Newsroom. I'm Rahel Solomon live in New York. Jim has the morning off.

We are following two breaking stories at this hour. Moments ago, Luigi Mangione pleading not guilty to the charges against him in New York State, the key piece of evidence helping prosecutors build their case.

And CNN has obtained a final draft of the ethics report on former Congressman Matt Gaetz, more details of the allegations involving drug use and sex with a minor and the response from Gaetz this morning.

But right now, Luigi Mangione, the man accused of killing UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson, has just left a New York courtroom after his arraignment on state murder and terror charges. He faces 11 counts in New York, including one for first-degree murder and two on second-degree murder. He has pleaded not guilty.

Now, if found guilty of the top charge, Mangione could get life in prison without parole, but he also faces a federal murder charge, which means that the death penalty is on the table if he is convicted.

CNN's Kara Scannell just got out of the court. We're going to get to her, but we also want to bring in CNN Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst John Miller and CNN Legal Analyst and Criminal Defense Attorney Joey Jackson. Welcome to you all.

But, Kara, let me start with you. Walk us through what happened in court today.

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So, Luigi Mangione came into the courtroom wearing shackles. He had them around his waist. His hands were cuffed. His ankles were cuffed. He was escorted arm and arm by two plainclothes officers.

Now, the hearing itself took all of just about 20 minutes. He very quickly off the bat entered a plea of not guilty to these charges. But his lawyer wanted to make a few points. His attorney, Karen Friedman Agnifilo, pointed out the perp walk on Thursday, where Mangione arrived by helicopter on the pier, was escorted down the pier, followed by New York City Mayor Eric Adams. As she put it, Mangione, she said, is treated like a human ping by two warring jurisdictions because of the federal charges that were announced that day that had thrown up in the air the plans for Mangione to be arraigned on the state charges on Thursday. That was now postponed until today.

Now, she also took issue with New York Mayor Eric Adams attending that perp walk and giving a press conference saying that he should know something about the presumption of innocence since he is indicted on federal bribery charges and is due to go to trial early next year.

Now, the hearing itself was pretty brief, but in a first in about a decade, we were -- the media were allowed to record the hearing and it will be able to be broadcast. That has not occurred, according to some folks that I've talked to in the court system, since the Dominique Strauss-Kahn was indicted and charged with sexual assault. Those charges were ultimately dropped. But that has not occurred for a long time. So, we will be able to see Mangione being escorted into the courtroom and seated there with his lawyers.

Now, there wasn't much else discussed at this hearing. There was an issue about these warring jurisdictions and exactly who would have custody of Mangione because, for now, he's in federal custody held at the federal jail in Brooklyn, New York. The judge saying who has primary custody of this defendant. One of the prosecutors said that they believe that the state does because the prosecutors last week had -- the federal prosecutors last week said that the state case would be expected to go first. So, the judge saying, well, then he thought that Mangione should be in state custody. But, ultimately, there seemed to be no one really knew what the answer was. And the judge telling the prosecutors they needed to work this out with the federal prosecutors and figure out who should be housing Mangione.

As for now, he was going back into custody, and, for now, it seems potentially returning to federal custody, but this is up in the air right now of exactly where he is going to be. But I don't think you can hear it or see it, but there are a number of people here saying, free Luigi, with signs up and supporting him. And interestingly in the courtroom, there are about 30-ish members of the public who were allowed in the courtroom. More than about two dozen of them were female, young females. No one made a sound in the courtroom. The court officers very affirm that they wanted order in the courtroom, no use of phones or any other devices by members of the public. So, there were no visible statements or reactions inside the courtroom.

But we did see pretty full line of people here to see Mangione make his first appearance in state court, where he entered that plea of not guilty. Rahel?

SOLOMON: Okay. Kara, thank you.

Let me bring in our panel. Joey, let me ask, bail doesn't seem to be an option here for Mangione. Why is that? Help us understand that.

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Rahel, good to be with you. Bail will not be an option. He is what's called being remanded. Whenever you have a defendant that's facing life in prison, that's facing murder charges, it's something that is not bail eligible.

[10:05:07]

The reality is that you're in custody pending the determination of your matter. In the event he's found not guilty, nothing to see here, you go home. But until that time he will be held.

Now, I heard Kara speak to the issue about the warring jurisdictions with respect to where he'll be held. I don't think that's an issue. I do not think it's an issue because there'll be cooperation as between federal and state authorities. And since he is remanded, that is no custody. Whether it is that he's in MDC, right, which is in federal in Brooklyn, or whether he's at Rikers Island in Queens, he has access to his attorneys. He has access to the court and he could be produced for various proceedings moving forward. And so it's not as though, Rahel, he's outside of the jurisdiction. But there will be no bail pending the actual trial, which will take place, you know, depending upon whether it's state or federal at some time in the near future.

SOLOMON: John, let me ask you, I mean, one thing that we heard from Kara there is that Mangione's defense attorney brought up the perp walk that has obviously made quite a statement on social media. Lots of people had lots to say about it. I'm curious what you think about whether that has the potential to backfire against prosecutors and perhaps make Mangione sort of fuel this belief by some that he is some sort of folk hero. What do you think?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: It's a really interesting question, because when you look at the overwhelming show of force around that perp walk, you know, Mangione looks somewhat small and quite captured. On the other hand there is this countervailing force of his extreme popularity among people on the internet, among fans who show up in court, among people who put things into his commissary fund when he was in the jail in Pennsylvania. So, these are two forces that are playing against each other.

As far as the perp walk goes, if you get down to the rules, the NYPD policy is that the department neither encourages nor discourages the photographing of defendants in public areas. That is just kind of the rule as written. The idea that there was this massive crowd behind him, the FBI showed up to claim custody of the prisoner, the mayor showed up to make the statement that, you know, you can run but you can't hide when you commit an assassination on the streets of New York City. So, there was a lot to this perp walk in terms of symbolism and meaning, and we're going to see that footage many times in the future.

SOLOMON: Yes. And, Joey, I actually want to ask you, you know, we heard from Kara's reporting there the concerns from Mangione's defense attorney about his ability to get a fair trial, she also pointed out the fans that are outside of the courthouse. I mean, does his defense attorney have a point that with the publicity that we've seen thus far, that will obviously continue, it's going to be a challenge. What do you think?

JACKSON: So, Rahel, this is a very unique circumstance and certainly defense counsel wants to ensure that their client is tried in a court of law and not in a court of public opinion. But it's a unique circumstance in as much as you don't have a public who is scouring him and scorning him and saying, we can't wait, right, until you're convicted. We have in this instance, Rahel, a public who seems to be saying that he's a saint, seems to be saying that what he did was justified, seems to be connecting with him, free Luigi, St. Luigi. So, it's kind of different. And it's different in as much as certainly you want to preserve and protect your client's right from a defense attorney. This might be a rare instance where you have the prosecutor saying, can we get a fair trial?

And so as the case proceeds and we look forward and we see social media blowing up with stories about the healthcare industry and how they're unfair and they're greedy and they favor profits over people, right, the dynamic as we get a jury at some point in the future, should this go to trial, to see whether that jury could be fair and impartial and could really met out this case on the facts and the merits, not in their political positions in terms of what they believe about the healthcare system in America. So, it's a really a dynamic unlike one, Rahel, that we haven't seen in the longest of times, if ever.

SOLOMON: John, I want to ask you a little bit about where Mangione is being held in the Brooklyn Metropolitan Detention Center. It's a detention center that other high-profile defendants have been housed. You think Crypto King Sam Bankman-Fried, SBF, Ghislaine Maxwell, Sean Diddy Combs. Why is this considered one of the most dangerous federal jails in the U.S.?

MILLER: You know, it is decrepit. It has suffered issues like lack of heat, lack of water lack of everything. They've just turned the entire place basically upside down, as the FBI and Bureau of Prisons inspector general went through it doing a cell-by-cell search kind of a shakedown of the building.

[10:10:10]

They've struggled with renovations. It is a place that comes with its own horror stories.

But I think in the background here, the why he's there relates to, you know, this is -- there's a little body snatching going on here, right? He was charged by the Manhattan district attorney with murder in the first-degree, unusually high charge, connecting it with terrorism. He was then indicted by a New York State grand jury.

And this arraignment, this proceeding we saw today, was supposed to happen on Friday, when the feds told the NYPD last Friday that they were taking him into federal custody, bringing him to federal court to be arraigned on a complaint, which is not an indictment. It's a statement by an FBI agent saying they've been informed of certain evidence that gives them probable cause.

SOLOMON: Okay. John, actually, let me jump in here because I'm understanding that we actually have the tape of the arraignment. Let's listen together. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- let's try our case first. So, with respect to whatever goes on there, as the party with primary jurisdiction, the trial and the sentencing will take place here prior to anything that takes place in the federal system.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, that - what you just said, the answer is it's fine if we take custody today?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That I'm not sure, because your Honor signed a writ in which it says that we're going to return the defendant to federal custody. So, I think I think that that would be step two. I do think that, logically, as the party with primary jurisdiction, the custody should be here. But I asked the court in light of the court signing the writ indicating that we would return him to federal custody. Let that be done at a later time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I've been through this before. And if you do that, they will bring him right at the (INAUDIBLE). So, I don't think I'm going to do that. But if you work it out with them, that we will take custody rather than us bringing them back for any proceedings, that'll be great.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will make every effort to accomplish that, Your Honor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But there should be some kind of attainment. I know that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If they're securing important changes, there should be some mechanism that is going to do it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

All right, is there anything further?

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, LUIGI MANGIONE'S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Your Honor. I would like to make a record, if that's okay with Your Honor. First we'd request immediate expedited discovery in this case. The people have had this case for about almost three weeks, and that's more than enough time to gather as much information as they can give to us, especially now that we have two proceedings that we have to answer to, one of them being death eligible. So, we are requesting that we get immediate discovery of the New York City Police Department and FBI and federal and state documents.

And the second thing I want to make a record of, Your Honor, is I'm very concerned about my client's right to a fair trial in this case. He's being prejudiced by some statements that are being made by government officials. Like every other defendant, he's entitled to a presumption of innocence. But, unfortunately, the way this has been handled so far, his rights are being violated. And as you know, Your Honor, there's a wealth of case law guaranteeing his right to a fair trial, but none of the safeguards have been put in place yet here. In fact, it's just the opposite of what's been happening.

He's a young man and he is being treated like a human ping pong ball between two warring jurisdictions here. These federal and state prosecutors are coordinating with one another. But at the expense of him, they have conflicting theories in their indictments and they're literally treating him like he is like some sort of political fodder, like some sort of spectacle. He was on display for everyone to see in the biggest staged perp walk I've ever seen in my career.

It was absolutely unnecessary. He's been cooperative with law enforcement. He had been in custody for over a week. He waived extradition. He was cooperative at all accounts. There was no reason for the NYPD and everybody to have these big assault rifles that, frankly, I had no idea it was in their arsenal. And to have all of these -- the press there, the media there, it was like perfectly choreographed.

And what was the New York City mayor doing at this press conference, Your Honor? That just made it utterly political.

[10:15:00]

And as your honor knows, under Lauro v. Charles, the Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit has held it to be clearly established that the staged perp walks to the media unrelated to a legitimate law enforcement objective is unconstitutional. And I submit there was zero law enforcement objective to do that sort of perp walk. There's absolutely no need for that, whatsoever.

And, frankly, your honor, the mayor should know more than anyone of the presumption of innocence that he too is afforded when he -- dealing with his own issues. And, frankly, I submit that he was just trying to detract from those issues by making a spectacle of Mr. Mangione. And there are consequences to this. He has a right to a fair trial.

And I just want to put on the record statements that the mayor made publicly about my client, nothing saying alleged, for example, and he said, I wanted to send a strong message with the police commissioner that we're leading from the front. I'm not going to just allow him to come into our city. I wanted to look him in the eye and state, you carried out this terrorist act in my city, the city of New York that I love. And he wanted to show symbolism. Your honor, he's not a symbol. He's somebody who is afforded the right to a fair trial. He's innocent until proven guilty. And the mayor was talking to jurors, future potential jurors that elected him. Those are the people that elected him, that he is talking to and calling this man a terrorist.

So, your Honor, I just want to make a record of this and put everyone on notice that this has to stop. And my client is entitled to a fair trial in the presumption of innocence. And we're going to fight these charges, whether it's in the state or federal, to the fullest extent. Thank you, your Honor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Well, as you know, I've (INAUDIBLE) -- SOLOMON: All right. We've just been watching the arraignment as it's come into our newsroom here, Karen Agnifilo there for the defense, for the defendant there, Luigi Mangione, and the prosecutor who we saw a little bit earlier.

Let me bring back in our panel John Miller, Joey Jackson with me. Joey, let's go over a little bit of what we heard. So, she's asking for immediate discovery. She says that her client is being treated like a ping pong between the different courts and that she has concerns about him getting a fair trial. And she pointed out as one reason that the perp walk that was, in her words, highly choreographed with lots of law enforcement, but also lots of press. Your reaction?

JACKSON: So, in terms of immediate discovery, I think that's very important. We don't play hide the ball in New York State, nor should any state. The fact is is that if there's information, if there's evidence, it should be turned over to the defendant and the counsel immediately so that it could be reviewed, evaluated, scrutinized, and so that he can begin to get a fair trial.

On the issue of being a human ping pong ball, also a very important point to be made, I think what they were doing, not as a matter of justification, but observation, is that law enforcement was sending a message that, hey, if there is a crime that's committed allegedly by you, by him, that we will go out, we will look for you, we will get you, we will bring you to justice. What that justice will be is an open question, because, yes, he deserves the presumption of innocence and certainly a fair trial.

However, last point, and that is, this is a very unique circumstance. In this particular case, it looks like he has very much gravitated in the public, gravitated towards him. Usually, as defense attorneys, you're concerned that your client gets a fair trial. You don't want pretrial publicity to take away detracting from that. Here, you have people who are saying, he is a saint. He is a person who did something that we believe in that should be done. As crazy as it is for me to be saying that, this is what I'm listening to, this is what we're all listening to on social media.

So, to that extent, where you have the public that's really for him, it begs the question of whether what does a fair trial look like? Does it look like a trial that inures to the benefit of the prosecutors, or does it look like a trial that inures to his benefit? And that, at this point, it seems that the defense has the upper hand with respect to public perception and people justifying and saying this murder was appropriate because of a healthcare industry that doesn't respect the public, that denies claims, and that is out of touch and out of step with what people are looking for.

And that is adequate quality healthcare that they deserve, right, we all deserve. And so we'll see how it plays out.

SOLOMON: I want you both to stand by because my understanding is that we have some sound from the prosecutor that we just got into our newsroom. Let's listen. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- voluminous to say the least. I have never seen a case with such volume of evidence aside from the issue of the quality of the evidence. I suggest the counsel, because we have a discovery portal, but given how much evidence there is against this defendant, it would be smarter if counsel could provide us with a two terabyte external drive rather than rely on the crashing of the portal.

With respect to statement and identification notice, we will be giving that notice within the next 15 days.

[10:20:03]

We're preparing an ADF.

We'll do our best to expedite discovery. But I'll say that with redactions and with the volume of it, we're hoping to do it as best we can under -- this is not a usual case in terms of the thousands of hours of video tracking and the like. And the fact that we're not only responsible for discovery in this county, but in Altoona, where the arrest was made and where several officers were involved. And we're in touch with those people, and we're going to get everything counsel's entitled to.

As to other issues, I think a 30-day adjournment to see where we're at and to -- of course, counsel is aware of the various notices. We have notices as well. I take it that the counsel will abide by the statutory limitations on their notices with respect to any notices they believe to be appropriate.

As to counsel's record on the mayor basically repeating what the mayor said, I don't know how that advances the ball. We will comply with their ethical obligations with respect to trying this defendant's guilt in this courtroom and this courtroom alone. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Alright. So --

SOLOMON: Let's bring back our panel. But, Joey, actually, I want you to respond to what we just heard there. I mean, on the one hand, it seems sort of logistical in terms of how they plan to physically hand over some of the discovery, some of the evidence. But on the other hand, I'm curious sort of what you think about his point about just how much evidence they have in their possession, especially you think about the notebook that was found in Mangione's possession with his own writings about the event, about the alleged event. I mean, what are your thoughts?

JACKSON: So, what happens, Rahel, is that in New York State, you have to file a certificate of compliance. What that means in English is that the discovery laws were changed recently to provide all discovery. It's open file discovery. Everything you have in your arsenal, if you're a prosecutor, has to be presented. That could be challenging and that could take some time.

It's not unique, right, where you can have the data transferred technologically, right, whether it's on a portal or any other type of device. But, yes, in this instance, it'll be as the prosecutor noted, voluminous. There's a lot there. But it should be turned over and it should be turned over forthwith.

And so, you know, once that happens, ultimately, the state, once everything is provided, will file that certificate saying, we're ready. The reason that's important, Rahel, is that there'll be various motions that are made. I'm assuming that the defense will make motions to preclude certain evidence from the jury on various grounds. The judge will have to make rulings on that. And it's only after that process occurs that the case can then go for trial. But that'll happen, I think, in the ensuing weeks. And I think the prosecutors may ask for extensions of time because there's so much information to gather and to provide.

SOLOMON: Yes. And, John, I want to let you respond here. I mean, one how rare is it for the prosecution to have, in their own words, this voluminous amount of evidence, at least for now, creating some sort of practical complications in terms of getting it over to the defense. But how rare is that for the prosecution to have that type of evidence heading into the trial?

MILLER: Well, very rare. And, you know, there's a combination of factors here. The New York State discovery laws under the Criminal Justice Reform Act of 2020 is open file discovery. Prosecutors are always required to turn over evidence that may come up at trial, evidence that may be helpful to the defense, things that are exculpatory that may be helpful to their client. But in this case, they have to turn over everything that ever came into this case, rvery tip they got on another name, every other suspect they looked at. And the voluminous part is going to be all the hundreds of hours of -- thousands of hours of videotape that they collected in the process of this investigation. So, it's a lot.

The real trick here is going to be, are they going to be able to enforce that level of discovery on the federal government, which doesn't necessarily fall under this New York State requirement.

SOLOMON: Interesting. Great to have you both, John Miller and Joey Jackson, and our thanks to Kara Scannell as well. Thank you.

And still to come this hour, what we're learning from the newly obtained ethics report on Matt Gaetz and how the former Congressman is now responding.

We'll be right back.

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[10:25:00]

SOLOMON: Welcome back. Now to some breaking news, former Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz is now trying to get a restraining order to stop the House Ethics Committee from releasing its report about him. Now, CNN has obtained a final draft of that report, and it details a years-long investigation that looked into numerous allegations against Gaetz, including illicit drug use and sexual misconduct with a minor. Gates has denied those allegations.

Let's bring in CNN Crime and Justice Correspondent Katelyn Polantz, who joins us now. Katelyn, walk us through the report. What did it say?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Rahel, the House Ethics Committee that investigated this, they spoke to half a dozen witnesses, many of whom were people who were able to say that Matt Gaetz was paying for sex and/or drugs.

So, the findings here are searing. In this report, the House Ethics Committee says that Matt Gaetz was engaging in commercial sex or prostitution, hiring women for sex or paying them whenever he was a sitting member of Congress. Also they believe there is evidence of statutory rape under Florida's laws, him having sex with a woman who at the time was a girl, a 17-year-old, who had just completed her junior year of high school, having sex with her at a party twice, including once in the presence of other people. They have testimony from that woman as well as others who were able to corroborate her story.

And then it in addition to that, they say that Matt Gaetz was using illicit drugs at the time that he was a congressman.

[10:30:00]

Many of these allegations are about what was happening between 2017 and 2020, those years that he was in Congress.