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CalFire: "Significant Concern" Fires In L.A. County Will Grow; Canadian Helicopter Tankers Fight the Flames From The Sky; Interview With Coulson Aviation CEO Wayne Coulson; Officials: Cell Towers To Blame For Erroneous Emergency Alerts; Residents Turning To Apps & Social Media To Track Fires; Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg Met With Trump At Mar-a-Largo On Friday; Ohio State, Notre Dame To Play For National Championship. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired January 11, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:01:07]

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jessica Dean in New York.

A war zone, a hellscape, unthinkable devastation -- this is how the most destructive wildfires in the history of Los Angeles are being described. And right now there is, quote, "very significant concern that the already deadly fires will continue to grow tonight."

We know 11 people have lost their lives. Officials are anticipating that number will rise as cadaver dogs are being used to search for remains.

100,000 residents are under evacuation orders. That number also likely to increase. And it comes as the coastal Palisades fire is now threatening to move further east if and when these winds do pick up.

California's Department of Forestry saying more than 38,000 acres have been scorched and for reference, that is more land than what the city of Miami covers.

Moments from now, we are expecting an update from CalFire officials on the situation. We're of course, going to bring you that live as it happens. We'll keep an eye on that.

In the meantime, we're joined right now by CNN's Stephanie Elam from the L.A. neighborhood of Brentwood.

Stephanie, where you are, just to give people an idea, there's the ocean, the Palisades very close to that ocean. And then as you move eastward inland, that is where Brentwood is.

You're up in the hills there. What are you seeing?

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we have seen sort of a change of attack here from above on this Palisades fire. We're seeing the wind kick up and a little bit, we just had like a little wind tornado right behind us -- a little tiny one. Because the winds are stirring up.

Also, let me show you what's going on here. You can see how dark that smoke is over there. They are really working to tamp this area down right now.

We have seen a number of helicopters come through there with the snorkel on the bottom that enables those helicopters to go out to a reservoir, to a lake -- could be to the ocean, depending on how they're doing this, pick up water and then without having to land, pick it up and then come and drop, you know, hundreds of thousands of gallons over and over again.

And as they're doing this on that flame, that part that is burning. And there's another plane just about to come in now, looks like it may be starting to go back and drop off some more too.

So a lot of that white smoke means they're getting to it. But that darker smoke means something is burning down there. Down on that ridge, you can see where the flames are burning, but you can also see where they've been making drops down there.

All of this because out in this canyon, there is a lot of dry brush that has been growing after two wet winters. And then we are in a drought again here in Los Angeles County. So all of this is just kindling after all this dryness.

And so they are working very hard to protect the homes that are here. There's another helicopter coming overhead right now, maybe scouting it out.

These are coming from different places -- there are -- some are from L.A. County, some are from Orange County. There are also some contracted aircraft that are out here battling the blaze, and being able to fight these fires from the sky makes a huge difference.

Like the first couple of days of this blaze, they were not able to fly because of those hurricane force winds that we were dealing with here.

I was standing out there and it was blowing me around. It's not something to play with. So they couldn't get the aircraft up. And that's part of the reason why we saw these blazes just explode inside.

And I can tell you with this fire, as well with the Eaton fire where I was yesterday, it is unfathomable how much destruction there is. You know, we cover a lot of wildfires out here, and you're used to seeing maybe a block or two of homes that are lost.

[17:04:43]

ELAM: But its block after block after block, the entire village up there in the Palisades just demolished. You just don't normally see it like this. And I see it.

Here's another helicopter that's coming with a snorkel. Hopefully we can move out the way, see if we can show it to you. But part of the issue here is also learning to attack the fires from

different ways.

So, right now they are coming in from where we are on this side of it from the east, because the smoke is billowing the other way and they want to try to get visuals on it. So they have spotters there, then they can go in and drop on these hotspots. And obviously their biggest concern here is putting out the flames near the homes.

I went over and talked to the firefighters that are there, the fire truck that's there in front of that home. These are firefighters that drove in from Utah and have been here. One of the firefighters told me that they've been out here for -- there you go, he's dropping right now -- this is the third time this fire season that they've come to California, because we have just been in this extraordinarily dry situation out here, Jessica.

DEAN: The amount of devastation, Stephanie, already as this continues to burn. Thank you for that reporting.

I want to take everyone now to the Los Angeles fire chief. They are updating people. Let's listen in.

(LIVE EVENT)

CHIEF ANTHONY MARRONE, LOS ANGELES COUNTY FIRE DEPARTMENT: -- tomorrow. And again Monday through Wednesday. The Los Angeles County Fire Department will be prepared.

These winds, combined with low humidities and low fuel moistures, will keep the fire threat in Los Angeles County high.

Please understand that the inevitable public safety power shutoffs that will be implemented prior to this life-threatening Santa Ana Wind event are crucial to preventing new fire starts and that they help save lives.

Yes, they're a challenge to deal with, but it's certainly better than having another fire start.

I would like to express my gratitude to the Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors for their leadership and unwavering support of our residents, my fire department personnel and me as fire chief.

To our first responders battling these wildfires in the air and on the ground, we commend you for your relentless and fearless dedication in protecting residents throughout this great county.

And finally, to our Los Angeles County residents, please be assured that we will continue to battle these wildfires until they are fully contained. We stand alongside all of you as we begin to plan for repopulation of evacuated areas, disaster recovery, and the rebuilding of your homes and your lives.

I would now like to introduce California Interagency Incident Management Team Five, operations section chief Don Fregulia. DON FREGULIA, OPERATIONS SECTION CHIEF, CALIF. INTERAGENCY INCIDENT

MANAGEMENT TEAM 5: Thank you, Chief.

Ok, so quick operational update here for the -- for the Eaton fire over here as we start on the right flank. An Santa Anita Canyon, things are looking really good across the front country here until we get to about here. And then we're starting to still see quite a bit of heat, quite a bit of work through here in this area.

As we come across over here into the Altadena area, this is -- I want to just highlight this, this square box right here is a square mile. So it's a massive, massive area that we're talking about here.

That's residential community. It's not wildland. It's a residence. And these are people's houses. So huge, huge Herculean task to get through all this down here. We have a ton of work.

It's many days, many weeks of work. I just wanted to highlight that a little bit.

As we come through by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. This is looking good. Again, crews engaged, boots on the ground mopping up.

All through the national forest up here we continue to make really good progress up there. The weather is in our favor. We're using air tankers. We're using helicopters. All the tools in our toolbox to go get and put this fire out right where you see it right here. So that will be our goal in the coming days.

Thank you very much.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now we're going to have Los Angeles County Sheriff Commander Tania E. Plunkett.

TANIA E. PLUNKETT, LOS ANGELS COUNTY SHERIFF COMMANDER: Good afternoon.

I'd like to take this time to update you on the Los Angeles County Sheriff's departments effort in dealing with the Eaton Canyon fire.

Currently in spot in response to the fire, our staffing has increased to approximately 500 personnel. Within the personnel, we have active missions which include controlling traffic points of approximately 46 hard closures and traffic control.

[17:09:48]

PLUNKETT: We also have roving security to deal with looting and address those issues. And when necessary, respond to welfare requests and at the direction of the Los Angeles County Fire Department.

As you may -- sorry as you may be well aware that last night we instituted a curfew order, which went into effect from 6:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. And currently, excuse me, within the evacuation zones.

It's important to know that these zones are going to be strictly enforced. And the reasons behind them is to enhance public security and address security -- and enhance public safety and address public security concerns.

Within the curfew we're at, we're asking everyone to stay clear of the affected zones unless they are authorized personnel or emergency responders. Anyone found --

DEAN: All right, we're getting an update from officials on the Eaton fire covering that Altadena area. As we get more information, of course, we're going to bring it to you.

I want to bring in meteorologist Chad Myers. He's in our CNN Weather Center. Chad, we're hearing them talk about the winds, the weather -- all of that plays into this and how best they are able or how they are able to combat these fires.

CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: -- that I heard the most. Was the PSPS shut off, the power safety -- public safety power shut off. That is, hey guys -- sorry, we have -- we have a party going on.

The area here across the area with the wind, that is going to increase the wind. We're going to push that wind through here. And the winds are going to potentially knock down power lines. That's the real issue.

So that's why they shut the power off originally, Jessica.

DEAN: Chad, also walk us through -- I see you've got the map there. We know that there is some significant concerns that these winds will flare up once again as we move later into this day.

MYERS: Yes.

DEAN: What are you tracking in terms of that?

MYERS: I am seeing that the wind right now is 10 to 15 miles per hour. But later on today, this high pressure and the low pressure that are in the great basin and over the Baja, California area will push that wind through and across, down in through the deserts and back to where we are.

Not as bad as we were, not 85 to 100, but were talking 45 to 50 now. Now, that is a Santa Ana event in itself. It's like saying, yes, the earthquake was an 8.2, but the aftershock was a 6.0. Well, the 6.0 was a very big earthquake in itself.

So this is a very large Santa Ana Wind, even though we had a bigger one that created all this. So that's going to be the issue as we work our way into Monday and Tuesday.

The wind picks up tonight. It then continues to blow on Sunday, stops a little bit for Sunday night into Monday morning, and then the wind picks up and it could be gusting to 60 miles per hour on Tuesday night into Wednesday. The pressure difference is there.

It's the difference between a high pressure and a low pressure. And that high pressure and low pressure, they don't want to be next to each other. And when they are, the wind blows directly around the low and around the high pressure itself, Jessica.

DEAN: All right. Chad Myers giving us some of the science behind this disaster that we're seeing play out still in real time. Thank you so much for that.

We're going to have much more on the California wildfires in just a moment.

[17:13:20]

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DEAN: Current wind conditions have right now calmed in the Los Angeles area. That's allowing firefighters to use aircraft to drop water and fire retardant over the flames.

Local crews are battling these fires alongside firefighters from other parts of California, as well as seven other states, Mexico and Canada.

Wayne Coulson is the CEO of Canada-based Coulson Aviation. That company has provided specialty helicopters tankers to aid in this fight.

Wayne, thank you so much for being here with us.

Just update us on what you all are seeing right now. These helicopter tankers you've -- your company has sent in and where they see things at this moment.

WAYNE COULSON, CEO, COULSON AVIATION: Very good. Well, thank you. Thank you for the invitation to join you today.

We're currently working around the Getty Center, our fleet, and looking -- protecting homes of the 405 east of the Getty, near the Mountain Gate Country Club and then to the homes of the west of the Getty in the Sylvia Park area. So we've been working and having some good success today.

DEAN: And help us understand, because obviously the winds are so critical here to be able to fly these helicopters. And right now the conditions are ok for that to happen.

I know there is deep concern about these winds picking up later today. How does that affect what you all are trying to do?

COULSON: Well, we're very concerned of course. And as we get into those heavier winds north of 30 miles an hour, it's very difficult for certainly the helicopters to be as efficient as we are when we just don't have that wind.

So, you know, we were lucky because we have large machines. We're carrying 3,000 gallons of load to the fire, which is the load stays together. So we were able to do some good work out there even in the heavier winds. DEAN: And talk to us about the technology. I know you're mentioning

and we're looking at video right now of what your pilots will see as they're flying these choppers.

But in terms of the technology that's on board, but also to just the efforts to spot flare ups and be able to report back to the fire department. What does that relationship look like?

COULSON: Well, we have -- we have excellent technology on our tanking systems and probably the most advantage that we have, of course, is being able to fly at night.

[17:19:52]

COULSON: And as a program that's been sponsored by Southern California Edison, uh, working for L.A., Orange and Ventura Counties, we're set up to do exactly what we're doing right now, flying 24-hours-a-day and supporting the ground firefighters and the people in the communities.

DEAN: And so that's how this works. That was my other question. Your relationship to southern California. You are then contracted out by Edison and to work with these various counties. Is that correct?

COULSON: That is correct. We work for the L.A. County, Orange County and Ventura County.

And help us understand just the magnitude. I mean, we keep trying to use superlatives to help people understand the devastation and the depth of this, the absolute range of these fires.

As someone who works in this business, how would you describe it?

COULSON: Well, for our 38 years and fighting fire around the world, we've never seen the devastation and the chaos that this fire, the current firefight were in now, we've never seen it anywhere else in the world.

So you know -- all I can -- we're blessed to have such great ground firefighters. We have excellent support between the other people we're working with in L.A. County and Orange and CalFire and the U.S. Forest Service -- our great support team working 24 hours a day. And we're blessed to be able to be part of this -- part of the solution in helping people in time of need.

DEAN: And in terms of your pilots, we had an incident on Thursday where a civilian drone collided with a super-scooper aircraft. How much of a risk is that for your pilots? And are they encountering any more of that?

COULSON: We have, and certainly we -- it's not the first time we've experienced this. And what that does, it grounds all the other aircraft working on fire. So a clear message to the public is please keep your drones in your garage because it will shut down a fire because it's very, very dangerous as it is. And it's just it just makes it that much more dangerous for us if we're having to face a drone strike. DEAN: Yes. And it just seems like that is happening more and more.

In terms of looking ahead, I know you said your pilots are out right now, that you've been making some good progress trying to prepare for what's to come. How do you anticipate the next 12 hours or so playing out?

COULSON: You know, in this business, we just take one hour at a time. And obviously we can't predict the weather. We can't predict what the fire is doing.

And, you know, all we know is we'll be there to support the, you know, the (INAUDIBLE) on the ground and the communities. And we're all in it together to, to provide that service.

And hopefully we get a break in the weather and the winds stay -- stay low.

DEAN: And how many people do you have and how many choppers right now?

COULSON: So we've got four aircraft currently operational right now. And our team is about a team of 50 and running seven days a week, 24 hours a day.

DEAN: All right. Well, we wish them safety and success.

Wayne Coulson, thank you very much. We appreciate it.

COULSON: Thank you.

DEAN: For more information about how you can help those affected by the fires, you can go to CNN.com/impact. You can also text "wildfires" to 707070 to donate.

We're also getting some new details on why millions of Californians got text messages by mistake, telling them to evacuate. Why that happened, how that happened.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

[17:23:36]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DEAN: Los Angeles County officials say cell towers are to blame for emergency alerts that sent some residents into a panic this week. Many who were nowhere near the wildfires woke up to evacuation warnings, urging them to prepare to leave their homes at a moment's notice.

Residents in L.A. now turning to apps, social media, even ring cameras like the video you see here to track the spread of the wildfires.

Joining us now, CNN chief media analyst Brian Stelter and CNN media analyst and senior media correspondent for Axios Sara Fischer.

Sara, it is astounding how many people have been relying on this app Watch Duty. They have really relied on this. It's been nothing short of life saving, I think, for some people. And it is -- it is not a governmental app. It is -- it is a company. What more can you tell us about that?

SARA FISHER, CNN MEDIA ANALYST: It's an incredible app, Jessica. And it's a nonprofit, by the way, the people who are fueling this app, they're doing it as volunteers.

It's extremely accurate. I have it up on my phone and I am checking it constantly. But it's important to note that this isn't a government entity.

There's been some issues in the county of Los Angeles in that you have so much different bureaucracy governing so many different parts of the city, that it's caused confusion about how they should be managing their communications in an emergency setting.

The FEMA director of the federal government has said that they have allocated some resources to some of these local constituencies to help them in emergency situations. But clearly, Jessica, we have a problem.

And it's not just in Los Angeles, by the way. We had problems with the alert systems in Hawaii a few years back. We've had alert problems in L.A. before. So this is something that the entire country needs to reckon with.

I believe hopefully more support at the federal level, because right now locally in Los Angeles, they are so busy trying to put out these fires, they need all the help that they can get managing the communication around them.

DEAN: Absolutely. And Brian, look, Watch duty Says they're monitoring this 24/7. What are your thoughts on this?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: Yes, this is kind of the positive side of a very negative story. There's been so much confusion and chaos, partly because of poor communication by officials.

[17:29:50]

STELTER: But I would say much more due to mis- and disinformation. Hyper-partisan content being spread on social media by bad faith actors who are trying to turn everything into politics.

It feels to me as if a lot of the noise around this very real emergency, a lot of the fictional nonsense is being driven by people who want to be able to figure out who to blame. They want to be able to point a finger of blame. That's the instinct.

And yet, in some cases, it's not that simple. And in some cases, it's actually up to Mother Nature or an act of God.

But it feels to me that there's a lot of information pollution out there related -- related to this emergency. And thankfully, on the brighter side, there are these apps like watch

duty. There are local outlets like the "L.A. Times" and the local TV stations in L.A. that are doing heroic work, trying to get accurate information out.

DEAN: It is striking what a double-edged sword this is. Sara, because, to Brians point, you go on X or -- and you know any of these sites and you do have to kind of sift through all of this stuff, all of the negative stuff, Brian, you we're just outlining, to find the actual good information.

And people right now need information. They need help. They need to know what to do next. And so it is such a double-edged sword.

The other thing that has been so interesting to watch play out in real time, Sara, I'm on Instagram. I went to school at USC in Los Angeles. It is a place I love so much. I have a lot of people I love who live there, who have been affected by this.

And -- and some I haven't talked to in a while, you know, friends of friends kind of thing that you went to school with. We have been able to connect with people and send donations. That is how people are getting help right now is like friends of friends of friends.

And - and, Sara, it is it is happening in real time on some of these social media apps.

SARA FISCHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: That's exactly right. Especially on Instagram, I'm seeing a lot of people show support, ways and places that you can donate.

I think it's very helpful to see celebrities that have millions and millions of followers walk through to their big audiences and explain the damage and how they can help because they have such big reach.

But to your point about where do you find good information? I remember when X, many months ago, decided to remove the verification system.

DEAN: Yes.

FISCHER: One of the big criticisms of that, Jessica, was that people in Federal Emergency Management needed to have a good way to communicate with people. They eventually brought verification back to those accounts.

But I do think -- and Brian hit on this -- you have a broader trust gap that the government can handle these types of emergencies. And so people are turning to close friends, neighbors and family to be able to navigate this.

And while it's an incredible thing to have a support system like that, when you're talking about such widespread damage and emergencies, you need to have a better plan than just asking people to look at their ring doorbell cameras. That's just absurd.

DEAN: Yes it is. It's crazy. And seconds count here, Brian. FISCHER: Yes.

STELTER: And I -- you know, I do -- this is the conversation we always have about technology. You know, that it brings both these opportunities as well as these costs.

DEAN: Yes.

STELTER: The issue needs to be to try to reduce the costs as much as possible. And yet we're in an environment where just this week, Mark Zuckerberg announced that Meta will end to fact-checking, moving away from his company feeling responsible for accurate and trusted information.

Again, I think that makes the local news sources more important in an environment where so many others are trying to spread nonsense.

DEAN: Yes, and it comes at a time, Sara, when local news budgets and newsrooms are being hollowed out across the country, and in L.A. in particular.

FISCHER: Yes, I just wrote the story a few months ago. You know, you have a bunch of people, wealthy people in L.A. that are trying to stand up a nonprofit there.

But you've had huge cuts at the "L.A. Times." L.A., a bunch of the local publications, are really struggling there.

I also want to call attention to one more thing, which is that, when people received the erroneous alert, they went to go to the alertla.org Web site to get the actual information and the Web site had crashed.

And so this isn't just an alert system through mobile phones. I think the entire infrastructure needs to be overhauled because, like you mentioned before, people only have seconds.

You don't want to have to ask somebody to verify an alert when they need to quite literally evacuate their home because of a fire.

And if you are going to ask them to double check it, the fact that the Web site couldn't even withhold that traffic is so problematic, Jessica.

You know, I think that one of the things that's going to come out of this is a stronger partnership, hopefully, between the federal government, local governments and also governments and private sector institutions that can strengthen the system altogether.

DEAN: Yes.

Brian, do you think that that's a possibility that we can get something beneficial out of this because these sorts of emergencies, unfortunately, are not going away?

STELTER: It's certainly one of these cases where it reminds us that, what happens online, on the Internet is real life. There's not a separate -- it's not -- it's not totally separate.

So the alert that goes to your phone is not some sidebar issue. It's the main issue. it's a critical, you know, tool.

And we've also heard during this emergency about trouble with wireless services, with some people using Elon Musk's Starlink service, for example, to get connectivity.

All of this is connected, and it's not a sidebar. It is the main bar that's a reminder that we get from -- from a situation like this.

DEAN: No doubt about it.

OK, both of you, please stay with us. We have more to talk about.

Including, Brian, what you touched on with Mark Zuckerberg and Meta.

[17:35:01]

We're going to talk more about that ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DEAN: And we're going to have much more coverage of the California wildfires in just a moment.

But first, Meta's CEO Mark Zuckerberg, meeting with President-Elect Donald Trump at his home in Mar-a-Lago on Friday.

It comes as Facebook is making big changes, rolling back its diversity, Inclusion and -- Diversity, Equity and Inclusion programs, as well as ending it's fact-checking protocols.

Here's what President-Elect Trump had to say about the changes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I watched their news conference and I thought it was a very good news conference.

I think they've - honestly, I think they've come a long way. Meta. Facebook. I think they've come a long way. I watched it, the man was very impressive.

STEVE CONTORNO, CNN REPORTER: Do you think he's directly responding to the threats that you have made to him in the past?

TRUMP: Probably. Yes, probably.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: And joining us now is the reporter you saw in that video, CNN's Steve Contorno.

[17:40:02] Steve, help us understand the significance of this meeting, the timing and then the changes that we're seeing.

CONTORNO: Jessica, this meeting between Trump and Zuckerberg caps what has been a remarkable few months for the billionaire and his social media empire and the way it has been positioning itself for the Trump administration.

Just take a look at just a handful of the moves that Facebook and Meta have made in recent weeks. They have eliminated fact-checking and other guardrails on posts that have ended their Diversity, Equity and Inclusion programs at the company.

They have donated $1 million to Trump's inaugural fund. They have increased the outreach of Mark Zuckerberg and his -- and his acolytes to conservative media.

They have appointed Republican Joel Kaplan as the new head of global policy. And they also named UFC CEO and staunch Trump ally, Dana White, to Meta's board. White is someone who was at Trump's convention earlier last summer and also at his victory party and is very close to the incoming president.

And -- and Zuckerberg spoke a little bit in an interview he had this week with Joe Rogan about what he looks forward to in the Trump administration.

Take a listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK ZUCKERBERG, CEO & FOUNDER, META: I do think that the American technology industry is a bright spot in the American economy. I think it's a strategic advantage for the United States that we have a lot of the strongest companies in the world.

And I think it should be part of the U.S.'s strategy going forward to defend that. And -- and it's one of the things that I'm optimistic about with President Trump is I think he just wants America to win.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CONTORNO: Of course, all of these moves come just months after Donald Trump threatened Mark Zuckerberg with life in prison if he didn't change the company in ways that appease Trump.

And now, after Trump wins election, we are seeing Zuckerberg make a series of moves, seemingly with Trump in mind -- Jessica?

DEAN: Indeed.

Steve Contorno, thank you so much.

And our panel is back.

Brian, start with you because -- because you were talking about this in the last segment. How do you read these -- these policy changes?

STELTER: Zuckerberg wants to get off Trump's enemies list and he wants to stay off Trump's enemies list. That's the simple explanation.

I think the slightly more complicated explanation that's also true is that Zuckerberg has long resented the pressure that he has felt to police misinformation and hate speech on the platform.

He wants a hands-off approach. And now he feels the cultural winds have shifted and he no longer has to try to stamp out lies on his platform. He can just let it all out there, and he can let the users police themselves.

He wants, most importantly, I think here, he wants favorable treatment for Meta from the U.S. government. He wants the FTC case against his company to go away. And I think everything he's doing should be viewed through that lens.

DEAN: Sara, how do you see it? And what do you think it means for people, you know, working at the company? What does it signal to the people working at Meta?

FISCHER: I completely agree with Brian. This is an attempt to get on the good side of Donald Trump and to get ahead of any regulatory threats and sort of societal reputation threats for the next four years.

For employees, I think this is a little bit shocking. You know, a lot of tech companies are going to donate to the inauguration. They're going to appoint prominent Republicans in their D.C. offices. That's not really shocking.

But the elimination of fact-checks, which was a pretty robust program that they've been working on for many years, the elimination of all their DEI programs, I think for employees, this is a sign that Meta isn't just doing this for political posturing. But they are actually shifting the ethos of the company.

And, you know this. But tech companies are traditionally progressive. The employees that work at them are traditionally progressive. And so this is probably something I'm hearing internally that's very jolting.

The other thing I want to note is that, in getting on Donald Trump's good side, Brian mentioned the FTC case, Meta is also establishing better rapport with all the regulatory agencies underneath him.

That is going to be critical. You'll recall that FTC case is about potentially unwinding the acquisitions of Instagram and WhatsApp. It's massive for Meta's business.

And we're seeing with TikTok right now, like regulators do have the ability, lawmakers have the ability to really be punitive towards your company.

And so I think they're just trying to get ahead of all of that. And they're doing it in this very rapid-fire way. I'm sure it's shocking to employees.

DEAN: Yes.

And, Brian, we saw Zuckerberg going on Joe Rogan's podcast this week. He blasted the Biden officials for asking Facebook to take down posts on vaccine misinformation and called for a, quote, "new kind of cultural elite."

What did you think about that appearance and what he had to say?

STELTER: Yes, I mean, it reminds me that this guy has been all buttoned up. I feel like he's the kind of guy that's like letting his letting his collar out, like letting his hair grow out. He's letting it all loose.

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: Like, esthetically, he even looks looser, right?

STELTER: That's what he's doing. Yes.

DEAN: Yes.

[17:45:00]

STELTER: He's -- he's really -- he has changed. And in some ways, this may be a very, very personal, very -- in his part, you know, something that he's going through personally where he has moved to the right personally. He's become more conservative personally. And that is partly what's going on here.

But he's also trying to reorganize the company for a Republican term and for a president who has been threatening him. You know, it's very, very specific in that regard.

But I do think there's a worthwhile conversation to have about where these speech policies should be. Was Facebook being too progressive? Was -- how -- were these other platforms trying to act more like social justice warriors than as neutral arbiters? That's a genuine and interesting conversation.

And frankly, he got into that on the Joe Rogan podcast. It is important for these platforms not to alienate half the country.

On the other hand, by making these more conservative changes, this MAGA makeover this week, Jessica, I think Facebook might be alienating a lot of liberals and a lot of Independents. And we just won't know until we see the user data months or even years from now.

DEAN: And how it all plays out.

Yes, Sara, one argument I heard was kind of the idea that, like, look, they had all this fact-checking in place and yet there was still a lot of misinformation on these platforms.

You know, did it actually work? Kind of -- kind of piggybacking off of what Brian was saying, what do you kind of think of that argument?

FISCHER: Well, I interviewed Meta's CMO earlier this week. One of the things he told me was that Meta was looking at the X community notes platform for fact-checking for a long time before they announced that that's what's going to be replacing their old fact-checking efforts.

They think that that's a pretty wise solution, because sometimes when you're trying to explain to somebody that they're wrong, they're less likely to listen to you as opposed to getting community response from something, leaving the post up so no one can say that they're censored.

Like, that could be a better source for combating misinformation. I think the real challenge, though, is there is a very big difference in policing political discourse misinformation in the U.S. versus life and death, manipulation abroad.

Like the U.N. came out and said that Facebook was responsible for the genocide of military officials against its own people. That is a pretty serious problem.

So in the U.S., you know, yes, we're policing misinformation around Donald Trump and this. And that abroad, where Meta has fewer employees, sometimes fewer that can speak the native language and understand the cultural nuances, making some of these shifts around fact-checking, I think, is a very, very big deal.

But to Brians point, like, we're not going to know that until we watch how this plays out. And I want to be hopeful and optimistic that maybe this is a better way. Maybe this develops better trust, but we're not going to know until we see it.

DEAN: Yes, we kind of have to live through it to find out.

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: I do want to talk about TikTok before we go. Yes, we're all going to live through it.

Brian, yesterday, the Supreme Court signaled it will likely uphold this ban. TikTok's Chinese-based parent company, ByteDance, has until January 19th, of course, the day before the Trump inauguration. What happens now?

STELTER: Well, Meta would benefit, some of TikTok's rivals will benefit if this app suddenly is no longer updated in the app store and gets worse and worse, and essentially becomes crippled by this action by the U.S. congress.

Will Donald Trump be able to do anything to stop it? I think that is the grand giant question now.

DEAN: All right. Brian Stelter, Sara Fischer -

(CROSSTALK)

STELTER: -- to reverse it -- actually, to reverse it in the months to come.

DEAN: Right, right, yes.

Thanks to both of you. It's always great to have you. And we appreciate you sticking around for two segments. Thanks so much.

FISCHER: Thank you.

DEAN: Yes. We continue to follow the very latest on the deadly California wildfires. And later tonight, I'm going to talk with the deputy chief of Cal Fire for an update on that situation. We're going to be right back.

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[17:52:48]

DEAN: We'll get back to our fire coverage in just a minute.

But first, a federal judge rips into Rudy Giuliani for his, quote, "outrageous and shameful" conduct as he was held in contempt for a second time in a week.

The former Trump lawyer was ordered to swear he acknowledges several records documenting there was no fraud in the 2020 election. If he does not comply by Inauguration Day, he will face a $200 daily fine and potential jail time.

The ruling coming as Giuliani continues making false claims against two Georgia election workers, despite losing a $150 million defamation case.

Also, Obamacare will soon be back in front of the Supreme Court. Justices are reviewing the constitutionality of no-cost coverage for certain preventative care services that includes cancer screenings, heart drugs and HIV prevention.

A lower court ruled the mandates relied on recommendations from a federal task force whose members we're not appointed by the president or confirmed by the Senate raising constitutional concerns.

Critics, including the Biden administration, warn millions could lose access to vital care if those mandates are indeed struck down.

And remember, the Yankees fans that mauled Dodgers star, Mookie Betts in game four of the World Series?

Well, they're banned from all MLB stadiums indefinitely after they tried to grab the ball out of his glove during the game. The league says the unruly fans actions posed a health and safety risk.

The fight to be the best team in college football coming down to two, after Ohio State and Notre Dame punch their tickets for the championship game.

CNN's Andy Scholes has more on this. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: Yes, Jessica, it's going to be Ohio State taking on Notre Dame January 20th for the national championship. And it was a lifelong Buckeyes fan who sent them to the title game.

Texas had first and goal. Down seven late in the fourth, but the Buckeyes defense made an incredible stand.

They stuffed the run twice, then forced an incompletion, and it all came down to a fourth and goal play. Senior Jack Sawyer, who grew up right outside Columbus dreaming of winning a title for Ohio State, came through.

He forces Quinn Ewers to fumble. Those two we're actually roommates freshman year at Ohio State, when Ewers played for the Buckeyes.

Sawyer then picked it up, went 83 yards to put the game away. Ohio State sideline just going nuts as they win 28 to 14, booking their ticket to Atlanta for Notre Dame.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[17:55:09]

JACK SAWYER, OHIO STATE DEFENSIVE LINEMAN: I kind of blacked out on the run over when I picked it up. But I mean, you know, coach put us in a great position to coach top-10 man, top-10 man.

RYAN DAY, OHIO STATE HEAD COACH: I can't say enough about Jack Sawyer. He's a guy who loves being a Buckeye. He loves his teammates. He's done everything we've asked him to do.

He's a captain. He's everything, you know, that we could possibly ask for in a captain. And to make a play like that in that moment we talked about before the game.

Do you want to leave a legacy behind? You become a legend. He just became a legend in Ohio State.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHOLES: Ohio State will now look to win their sixth national title as they take on Notre Dame January 20th in Atlanta. And the Buckeye's huge 9.5 point favorites for that game.

And you know, Jessica, what a turnaround it's been for the Buckeyes after Thanksgiving. They lost to Michigan. Many of their fans wanted to fire coach Ryan Day.

But since then, they beat Tennessee. They beat Oregon. They beat Texas in the playoffs. Now playing for a national title. And I imagine many of those fans are now singing a different tune.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DEAN: Andy, thank you.

New in, we're learning the number of California National Guard members deployed in response to those fires will soon double. This, as the fires continue to burn.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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