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Washington Post Reports, Counterterrorism Experts Warn Jan. 6 Pardons Could Embolden Fringe Groups; Flights Canceled for Refugees Already Approved to Travel to U.S.; DOJ Threatens to Prosecute Officials Who Resist Immigration Crackdown. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired January 22, 2025 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JIM ACOSTA, CNN ANCHOR: Today, pardon fallout. This morning, fears of escalating violence as January 6th rioters are released from prison.

[10:00:03]

QAnon shaman says he's going to be some mother effing guns. The former Proud Boys leader now says he wants to get back in the fight. And in a few moments, I'll speak to the ex-wife of Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes about her fears now that he's been released.

Plus, shocking new abuse allegations against President Trump's pick for defense secretary, his former sister-in-law, saying she and his ex-wife even had a code word if she needed to get help and away from Hegseth.

And Trump State Department just canceled flights for about 10,000 refugees set to come to the U.S. They already had tickets and are now stuck, unable to leave.

You are live in the CNN Newsroom. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington.

We begin the hour with this. Counterterrorism experts are sounding the alarm this morning over President Donald Trump's sweeping clemency of virtually every January 6th defendant. According to this morning's Washington Post, these experts say the pardons could further embolden fringe groups and hamper the Justice Department's fight against political violence.

Many Republican lawmakers are struggling to defend those pardons, especially of those who viciously attack Capitol police officers, but Trump is doubling down on his decision.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: You would agree that it's never acceptable to assault a police officer, right?

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Sure.

REPORTER: So, then if I can, among those you pardoned, D.J. Rodriguez, he drove a stun gun into the neck of a D.C. Police officer who was abducted by the mob that day, he later confessed on video to the FBI and pleaded guilty for his crimes, why does he deserve a pardon?

TRUMP: Well, I don't know. Was it a pardon because we're looking at commutes and we're looking at pardons? Okay, well, we'll take a look at everything, but I can say this. Murderers today are not even charged.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And I've just confirmed that members of the Capitol Police Force who testified against January 6th defendants received emails and phone calls alerting them that the very people they testified against were being released. Staff Sergeant Aquilino Gonell posted this showing calls he received from the Justice Department and you can see on the right that that was the text of one of those emails explaining what happened and apologizing to him.

I want to bring in Harry Dunn. He's on the phone with me. He's a former Capitol Police officer. And, Harry, you and I have spoken about this a lot over the last few years about what happened to you on January 6th. And I understand you may have gotten some of these calls or your attorney did warning that the people who assaulted you were going to be released. What can you tell us?

HARRY DUNN, FORMER U.S. CAPITOL POLICE OFFICER: Well, no. Jim, hey, thanks for having me on. So, I'll make it clear. I didn't receive the violence and the vicious attack that a lot of my co-workers did. I did testify and two of the prominent high-profile cases of individuals that definitely were just released out of custody, like nothing even happened. But, yes, like you just said, Sergeant Gonell. So, every single last message is an individual, a different individual, not just, you know, the random notifications. It's a different individual of a person that attacked him. And, yes, I was notified of the individuals were pardoned and released from custody of the Department of Corrections.

ACOSTA: And, Harry, your response to everything, your reaction to all of this? You saw Trump being asked about this yesterday over at the White House. What do you think?

DUNN: Jim, you know, I love you to death, man, and a lot of people are asking me to react and what's my response to me. What do you want me to say that I haven't said and that we haven't said for the last four years? Donald Trump said he was going to do this. But my outrage isn't for Donald Trump. He did what he said. I mean, yes, it is. I mean, let's make that clear, but it's for everybody that's acting shocked and I couldn't believe he did this. He said he was going to.

So, now, people are upset and people are -- you had the opportunity to stop this on November 5th and they didn't. So, that's what my outrage is. And, you know, now I can't -- why is everybody upset now? Where were you all? Where was everybody's outrage four years ago, three years ago, two years ago, November?

ACOSTA: Yes. And, Harry, I mean, are you concerned like others are concerned? I know Aquilino is concerned. I'm going to be speaking with Tasha Adams in just a few moments. Her ex-husband has been released, the founder of the Oath Keepers. Are you concerned that some of these people who have been released are a danger and could come after you?

DUNN: Listen, everybody has that -- they -- that's rightful concern. Christopher Wray, when he testified, called these individuals domestic terrorists.

[10:05:01]

The goal and objective of terrorists is to create fear. I don't want to give these individuals the power of saying they won and having that have that type of control over my life. Although, yes, it's reasonable, they've already shown what they're willing to do. I don't want to live my life in fear. So, I'm going to be out there continuing to fight and speak out against this. This is wrong. It shouldn't have happened. And more of our elected officials in Congress and the Senate need to be condemned (ph), Pam Bondi and as recently as last week in her confirmation hearing that the people who attacked the police officers should be held accountable. I wonder if her story is going to change now or how do they square this away? This isn't okay.

ACOSTA: Do you and the other

DUNN: The police endorsed Donald Trump and they've just put out a statement last night condemning it. Is that enough? Like, oh, this is bad. Okay. Man, I'm just so frustrated with everybody's indifference and apathy leading up to this.

ACOSTA: Does the government need to provide protection to certain members of the Capitol Police Department who were assaulted that day, D.C. Police Department who were assaulted that day and are now worried that now that these people have been released that they pose a danger to those officers? As you know, Harry, there have been relatives of some of these rioters who turned them in. One has to assume that those family members who turned in their relatives because they were involved on January 6th, that they have to be fearful. Doesn't the government need to do something about this?

DUNN: Sure. Those are all valid concerns. And, you know, yes, one would think right, that these people, when they testified or these witnesses that gave information, they did it to help the government. So, why not the government should help them? You know, every case, I guess, is different, you know, depending on what people want and the, how people feel and their safety. But I think that isn't that the job of the Justice Department, isn't that the job of the president to protect their citizens, to protect the -- to stand up for what's right for American people?

ACOSTA: But Harry the president is now Donald Trump. What is your message to him after he's done this?

DUNN: The same thing it's been for the last four years. You're wrong. You're wrong and you should be ashamed of yourself.

ACOSTA: All right. Harry Dunn, you take care. Keep us posted. Thank you very much.

DUNN: Thanks, Jim. ACOSTA: All right. In the meantime, more than a dozen members of far right extremist groups, like the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys, received commutations instead of full pardons. That includes the founder of the Oath Keepers, Stewart Rhodes, who was released from a Maryland prison just hours after Trump's proclamation. He was serving an 18-year sentence for seditious conspiracy.

Last month, I spoke with his ex-wife, Tasha Adams, who said she feared for her family's safety if Rhodes was released.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TASHA ADAMS, EX-WIFE OF OATH KEEPERS FOUNDER, STEWART RHODES: Stewart Rhodes is a very dangerous person. He's dangerous to us as his family. Certainly, he's dangerous to all of America. Right now, he's regrouping and rebranding. He's writing a sub stack from prison, you know, the Oath Keeper. He's already gathering his forces.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And Tasha Adams joins us now. Tasha, tell us about the moment you learned that your ex-husband, Stewart Rhodes, would be released from prison.

ADAMS: I mean, like Harry Dunn said, we knew it was coming. I hoped it wouldn't be so soon. I had hoped there would be maybe some paperwork delays. That's not the way it went. It's just sort of a numb feeling, you know? It's a little bit like the calm that sort of hits you when the thing you fear most finally happens. It's sort of an uneasy, calm and a numb feeling. It's not shocking, but it still punches you in the gut, nonetheless,

ACOSTA: and, Tasha, are you now taking precautions now that Rhodes is out?

ADAMS: I am. And law enforcement has been extremely helpful. I probably call the FBI more than most people call their own mothers just to check up and run things by them. And --

ACOSTA: And you're worried. You're worried.

ADAMS: I'm worried. I am worried. You know, Stewart's a very careful person in some ways about his own self-preservation. He's in this for the long game. I have -- in some ways, I'm more concerned about years from now when there's not such a spotlight on him.

[10:10:01]

I also worry about his followers. They're a bit unhinged and he does seem to be re-gathering and regrouping his army, you know, right now.

ACOSTA: Do you think he poses a danger?

ADAMS: Yes. He's a dangerous person. He's still a convicted felon. He's running around telling anyone who will listen that he's going to sue me for saying that he's dangerous. He's demonstrated that himself time and time again. He is a convicted felon. He's been convicted of seditious conspiracy against the United States and he's out walking around drinking margaritas. I mean, it's just -- it's absurd.

ACOSTA: And did you think that Trump would go through with this? Harry Dunn was saying a few moments ago, of course, he was going to do this. But there were some folks who were saying, even the new vice president was saying, well, no, anybody who's been convicted of violence is not going to be let loose. And Donald Trump defied his own vice president and went and did this. Did you think he would do this?

ADAMS: I mean, I guess I thought he would but I really hoped he wouldn't, you know? And I did allow a little out of motion to creep in and thought, well, you know, he's not known for keeping his promises and he could have pardoned them before. And then I guess if you look back at it, and you hear what his own vice president had said, which was, you know, we're not going to pardon the worst of them. Well, I guess he didn't really pardon them. You know, he commuted their sentences and maybe that was the give and take they had there possibly. But effectively for someone like Stewart Rhodes, it's the same thing. He's a convicted felon, but it's not like he's going to go out and get a job. So, it doesn't really affect him in any way.

ACOSTA: And Rhodes, he spoke to the cameras. I'm sure you saw this or you heard about this. Let's play a little bit of that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Any regrets?

STEWART RHODES, OATH KEEPERS FOUNDER: No, I don't, because we did the right thing. We were there to protect Trump supporters from Antifa. We were there to protect and secure two permitted events on Capitol grounds where members of Congress were going to speak.

The guys that went inside did not commit any crimes. We got to help the police and help the people out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And, Tasha, apparently -- yes, what's your response to that first?

ADAMS: It's just the same old Stewart. Using a sort of a foe righteous indignance and just clinging to it as his sort of armor. It's spot on for Stewart, exactly what I expected.

ACOSTA: And as you know, he is saying, and his lawyers have said that he is not a danger to you and your family. One of his attorneys said there was never any allegation of threats to his wife or his children that came before the divorce court. There's simply no basis in fact for the allegation. A statement like this is libelous and defamatory. I'm reading some of what he said in the past. Your response to all of that?

ADAMS: Ridiculous. Stewart and his attorneys had fallen into this habit of claiming that there was no allegations of violence during our divorce. And this is because, for years, this was a five-and-a-half year long divorce proceeding, the records were sealed and he was able to say that because nobody could look at the records and see. But now, anybody can look at them and the entire divorce was about nothing but his violence. Pretty much every document filed references is violence, so simply not true.

ACOSTA: And, Tasha, I asked this of Harry. I'm going to ask this of you because there are some families in your position, there are some families who turned in their relatives because they were involved on January 6th. They did it for the good of the country to protect the community from others and from these people who are involved in the attack on the Capitol. What should be done for these kinds of families, families like yourself, people who went out on a limb and said, you know, these are dangerous people, don't let them out, don't do this, and yet, then the president did it?

ADAMS: I mean, they should be protected, but, you know, can you trust your protectors under this regime? I don't know. I don't know. Yes.

ACOSTA: You don't trust Donald Trump?

ADAMS: I do not trust Donald Trump. Yes, that's a fair statement. Yes.

ACOSTA: All right. Well, Tasha Adams, you take care and you keep us posted how you're doing. We appreciate your time.

ADAMS: Thank you.

ACOSTA: Thank you, Tasha.

All right, we are following other breaking news. Trump State Department just canceled flights for refugees who were already cleared to travel to the U.S. Details on that ahead.

[10:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ACOSTA: And we are following other breaking news, Trump's State Department just canceled flights for refugees who were already clear to travel to the U.S. The move is now impacting 10,000 refugees who already had their tickets booked and processing of all refugee cases has been stopped until further notice.

CNN's Priscilla Alvarez joins me now. Priscilla, what's behind this announcement? What can you tell us?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is an example of the swift impact of some of President Donald Trump's executive orders, in this case, one about refugee resettlement. Of course, this is part of a program that the United States has had for decades and generally has had bipartisan support.

So, I'm learning this morning after obtaining a State Department memo to resettlement partners that all flights have been canceled moving forward.

[10:20:06]

They do not have a date for when they are set to restart and refugee processing has also been suspended. This stands to affect around 10, 000 people, as you mentioned. And it is also important for viewers to understand that refugees are vetted for years. So, there are people that are learning today who, after years of going through this process, a very cumbersome process, will no longer be able to come to the United States. And the refugee advocates I have been speaking with say that some families who may have been waiting for their family members to arrive will now not see them for the foreseeable because again, we don't know when this will be turned back on again.

Now, the Trump administration has argued that this is part of them trying to control who is coming to the United States. Of course, they say that the United States has not been able to absorb the migrants who have come across the border in addition to refugees to completely separate populations. And they are basing this on national security and public safety. So, again, sort of like the first term, wanting to go through the vetting checks again before they reopened this program.

ACOSTA: Yes, I remember covering it at the White House and it was pretty chaotic when they were putting in this travel ban and it had repercussions for days. And so we'll have to see how this gets sorted out.

In the meantime, the president is also now removing restrictions on where ICE can carry out migrant arrests. What can you tell us about that?

ALVAREZ: Well, this is an example of how the administration is quietly laying the groundwork for the president's decision. What do I mean by that? This is a directive that they pulled back so that immigration and customs enforcement can do enforcement actions, can arrest people in and near what are called sensitive areas, churches, schools, hospitals. It gives them the opportunity to do that.

And the Department of Homeland Security said in a statement that this -- criminals will no longer be able to hide in America schools and churches to avoid arrest. So, there's the mention of those areas. It goes on to say the Trump administration will not tie the hands of our brave law enforcement and instead, trust them to use common sense, so essentially get putting the responsibility on ICE. In addition to that, Jim, they also expanded the pool of undocumented immigrants who may be quickly removed. So, if you start to look at this in combination, you can see how they are quietly laying this groundwork.

ACOSTA: All right, and we're going to see that unfolding in the days ahead, obviously.

Priscilla Alvarez, thank you very much.

More breaking news, a look at the plans to crack down on cities resisting the Trump administration's new immigration orders, the breaking news on the new memo from the Department of Justice, the Trump Department of Justice, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:25:00]

ACOSTA: All right. Welcome back. We do want to tell you about something that's taking place up on Capitol Hill right now. House Speaker Mike Johnson is talking to reporters, holding his first press conference since the inauguration. He just reacted to Trump's pardons of the January 6th offenders. He was asked by our Manu Raju about that. Let's play a little bit of that sound.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The January 6th rioters who attacked Capitol Police and if those riders come to the Capitol, will you welcome them back here?

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): So, look, everybody can describe this however they want. The president has the pardon and commutation authority. It's his decision. I think what the -- what was made clear all along is that peaceful protests and people who engage in that should never be punished. There was a weaponization of the Justice Department. There was a weaponization of the events, the following -- you know, the prosecutions that happened after January 6th.

It was a terrible time and a terrible chapter in America's history. The president's made his decision. I don't second guess those. And, yes, you know, it's kind of my ethos, my worldview. We believe in redemption. We believe in second chances. If you would argue that those people didn't pay a heavy penalty, having been incarcerated and all of that, that's up to you. But the president's made a decision. We move forward. There are better days ahead of us. That's we're excited about. We're not looking backwards. We're looking forward.

Just second --

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ACOSTA: All right. That's House Speaker Mike Johnson. Obviously, he's making some claims there that don't factually add up. He is not addressing the fact that President Trump did pardon violent criminals from January 6th, people who stormed the Capitol, assaulted police officers, were convicted for seditious conspiracy. But you did hear the speaker say that he does not second guess or question President Trump's decision to pardon or commute the sentences of all of those January 6 rioters and insurrectionists. We're going to have more on that just a few moments of standby for that.

But in the meantime other breaking news to tell you about, the Justice Department is now threatening to prosecute officials who resist President Trump's immigration crackdown.

CNN's Evan Perez is joining me now. Evan, a lot of fast moving developments certainly on this front that the Department of Justice is threatening to go after other officials in this country if they don't do what Trump wants.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right. I mean look, we expected a sharp turn at the Justice Department, the focus certainly for the president, not only because of the prosecutions against him but also because they want to do a big, big message on immigration. And this is the architecture that the new administration is going to take to go after sanctuary cities and to go after officials in those cities that they believe might obstruct them on trying to carry out this crackdown.

And this is a memo that came out from the acting deputy attorney general, Emil Bove. He outlines basically a couple of goals.

ACOSTA: They're Trump's former defense lawyers, by the way.

PEREZ: Exactly.

ACOSTA: Not to interrupt, I'm sorry.

PEREZ: No, exactly. No, it's a good point to point out, because obviously these are people who are going to be running the department day in, day out, and they did serve as the president's defense lawyers.

[10:30:00]

But one of the things that they're focused on right now is to try to get the handle on sanctuary cities because they know that those cities are going to try to resist --