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Interview With Rep. Steve Cohen (D-TN); Robert F. Kennedy Set For Confirmation Hearings; Interview With Rep. Rich McCormick (R-GA); Trump Administration Pauses All Federal Grants and Loans. Aired 11- 11:30a ET
Aired January 28, 2025 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:00:00]
PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: And he will be greatly missed.
And we begin this hour with an overnight memo from the Trump administration ordering a sweeping pause on all federal grants and loans. It is a move that could impact trillions of dollars in federal assistance for communities and families who need it the most.
Programs that are potentially at risk, school breakfast and lunch programs, and Section 8 rental assistance, also Title I education grants, state grants for childcare and the Head Start program. The freeze is set to go into effect this afternoon.
CNN's Jeff Zeleny joins us now.
So, Jeff, help us make sense of this, the impact this could have, and what is the White House saying?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, we certainly will try, but the reality is, this is -- was so sudden last night that federal agencies right now are just trying to make sense of the full scope of this.
One thing is very clear, that this is one more example, one more part of the president trying to remake his vision of the U.S. government. This is not a surprise. This is what he ran on, to shrink some programs obviously, in some cases to make room perhaps for his expansion of his tax cuts and other things just to eliminate programs that he is not supportive of.
But the question here is, how much is the reach of this? So grants and loans and federal assistance, by 5:00 p.m. today, they will all be put on hold. Now, that runs the gamut across the agencies. You were pointing out a few examples there from school lunch programs, but also ag subsidies and so many other things that affect Americans of all stripes, not just blue states, red states as well.
So this is going to be something to -- it is going to take some time to see the exact fallout of this. Republican House leaders are saying this is overblown. It's just a pause. It's not an elimination. But take a look at the memo from the OMB released overnight that
really gives a sense of why this is happening. And the acting director of the OMB says: "The use of federal resources to advance Marxist equity, the transgenderism and a Green New Deal, social engineering policies is a waste of taxpayer dollars that does not improve the day- to-day lives of those we serve."
Now, that, of course, is in line with the president's views, but unclear is what else is falling into this. At the bottom line of all of this is who has the authority to control things that have already been improved in law? Is that the traditional power of the purse that Congress has, or is the president going to try and take some authority over that?
So that is what is at the heart of all of this power struggle, if you will, between the branches of government, Pamela.
BROWN: And there's still this sort of question of how long this pause is going to be, of course.
Jeff Zeleny, thank you so much for the latest there from the White House this morning.
And joining us now for more is Congressman Rich McCormick of Georgia. He serves on the House Armed Services and Science, Space and Technology committees.
Thank you so much for joining the show.
So we're still trying to make sense of what this federal aid pause will look like. But the president of the National Council on Nonprofits has warned this decision could have dire consequences for vulnerable populations.
Quote: "From pausing research on cures for childhood cancer, to closing homeless shelters, halting food assistance, reducing safety from domestic violence, and shutting down suicide hot lines, the impact of even a short pause in funding could be devastating and cost lives."
That is what Diane Yentel says.
What do you say to that? Are you supportive of this freeze?
REP. RICH MCCORMICK (R-GA): I think we have so much waste, fraud and abuse out there, so many programs have been politicized that in order to get our arms around this and find out where the money's going, what it's going to, what the impact is, this is the response that President Trump has had.
Now, realize that a lot of this money has already been projected. It's not the money that's being spent right now, but future monies. This is saying we're not going to grant anymore. The stuff that's already been granted, I don't think the dissemination of that money is going to be stopped. And so this is about future grants, future exploitation of a political
system that's really been used to warp the American society. And so, right now, we're stopping and having top-down review to see what really makes sense to the American people and what does not.
BROWN: Yes, our understanding is -- and I have the letter here from OMB -- this is -- it's freezing $3 trillion from federal financial assistance, such as grants and loans, not necessarily future grants, as you say.
And there is this question of the vulnerable population that could be impacted; 64 percent of students in fiscal year 2024 were free- and reduced-lunch eligible. Over 19,000 students participate in the Head Start program.
What are you going to say to your constituents directly impacted by this, potentially?
MCCORMICK: We have these conversations all the time, but if you think about it, $3 trillion, you just mentioned a big number, $3 trillion.
We have about $4.5 trillion to $5 trillion revenue for the United States. That's two-thirds of our revenue for the entire United States, actually over that. And you're talking about, that's what we spend on just those programs.
[11:05:04]
We are in a such a deficit spiral right now that, if we don't do something significant, we will become insolvent as a nation. And our currency standard as the world currency standard will go away. Our place in history will be lost and we won't have the money for anything, not helping anyone, not anywhere around the world, if we don't become more responsible with our own money.
And this is just a step in the right direction to become accountable. Some of this money is going to come back. I guarantee it. There's going to be -- the poor people in America have been taken care of traditionally since the beginning of our government.
And I think this is just one thing that we have to stop and say, what really makes sense and what doesn't.
BROWN: Right.
And you talk about the deficit. I know that's a big concern among people like yourself, who have been outspoken. Donald Trump, in his first term, as you know, added, I think it was $8 trillion to the deficit. And when you look at these programs, are these really the programs that you would want to see cut, Head Start, free breakfasts and lunches for constituents in your district?
Would you be OK with that to cut down on federal spending?
MCCORMICK: If you look at what we need to address, we have bigger issues than that. We have Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid. Those are all welfare issues.
And a lot of those things are set aside for people who have paid into the system to begin with. But, quite frankly, when 75 percent of the budget is nondiscretionary, what we call mandatory, and you don't address those things, you're going to have automatic cuts.
Now, you talk about Social Security, I want to save Social Security, not cut it. But we have to do something or it will become insolvent in the next decade, and you will have a 21 percent automatic cut or we put so much debt on the American people because our backs are up against the wall, that we will for sure go in that death spiral of debt.
And that goes for Medicare too, by the way, 11 percent automatic cut. We don't vote on that. That will automatically happen. So when you say, Rich McCormick, he wants to throw old people under the bus or poor people or children, no, I want to save that.
BROWN: No, no one is saying that.
MCCORMICK: I want to save that money by making it leaner, meaner, more instructive.
BROWN: Yes. No, I understand.
MCCORMICK: Some people are saying that.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: And, look, that is -- OK, well, look, that is a valid goal, right, to save money and be more efficient, right?
But the bottom line is, right now, with this freeze, vulnerable populations could be directly impacted. And so my question to you, just to follow up with you, would you support getting rid of school lunch for vulnerable kids and breakfast and Head Start, for example, and getting rid of childhood cancer research?
Do you support that? And what do you say to your constituents? I want to follow up on that question too because I didn't hear an answer from you.
MCCORMICK: Sure.
So, I'm an E.R. doc. And I know that philanthropy is where you get most of your money for childhood cancer research, for example. And it's not just child -- I mean, you look at what the president just proposed, a half-a-trillion-dollar spending bill on A.I. to produce cancer early detection in the first stage on most body parts.
That's his spending bill, where he wants to increase cancer research. So it's just about what pot of the money it comes out of. When you talk about school lunches, hey, I worked my way through high school. I don't know about you, but I worked since I was -- before I was even 13 years old. I was picking berries in the field before child labor laws that precluded that. I was a paper boy. And when I was in high school, I worked my entire
way through. You're telling me that kids who stay at home, instead of going to work at Burger King McDonald's during the summer, should stay at home and get their free lunch, instead of going to work?
I think we need to have a top-down review. Think about where kids need to actually be.
BROWN: I think you're painting a lot of these kids with a broad brush.
MCCORMICK: Exactly. Exactly.
BROWN: I would say that's not necessarily a fair assessment of all of the kids.
So you would say all the kids in your district who use the free lunch, for example, or breakfast...
MCCORMICK: Of course not. Of course not.
BROWN: ... they're all just seeing at home and not working?
OK, I just want to clarify, because that seems like what you were trying to do.
(CROSSTALK)
MCCORMICK: No, this gives us a chance -- no, this gives us a chance, though, to see, where is the money really being spent? Who can actually go and actually produce their own income? Who can actually go out there and do something to make some have value and work skills for the future?
I mean, how many people got their start in fast-food restaurants when they were kids, versus just giving a blanket rule that gives all kids lunches in high school who are capable of going out and actually getting a job and doing something that makes them have value, thinking about their future, instead of thinking about how they're going to sponge off the government, when they don't need to?
We don't give people value. We don't give them the ability to dig themselves out when we penalize them for actually working and actually keep them on welfare. That's what's been the inner-city problem for a very long time. We need to have a top-down review, so we can get people out of poverty, because you know what?
America is very good at creating jobs and giving people worth. And we have been very traditionally good at that. But we're losing our way. And that's when we give people incentives to stay at home and not work. That doesn't work for America.
BROWN: But a lot of these kids aren't even of, like, working age. They're young kids, and -- as you well know.
MCCORMICK: I get that. It doesn't apply to everybody. BROWN: And also some of the -- some of the kids at Head Start, they're like 5 and under.
But I just want to ask you, because I'm trying to -- I always try to think of different perspectives and what people would say to what you're saying. And they may argue, well, some of these families can't afford to buy food for their kids because food prices are so high, egg prices are skyrocketing.
[11:10:10]
Donald Trump promised to lower the food prices on day one. How are any of these actions actually doing that? What do you say?
MCCORMICK: Oh, I will tell you, so when you actually produce an energy source that makes it easier to truck and to train and to fly things, the price of commodities comes down.
I mean, one of the reasons we had huge inflationary costs is because of supply and demand. Of course, we all learned that in junior achievement when we were little kids. But when you have the price of energy so high, it actually increases the price of products. We saw this during COVID, when people started to consume massive amounts and didn't have the moneys to actually pay for these products.
When you talk about opening up free capital societies to actually work, when you talk about producing not just calories, but nutrition, this is what JFK Jr. (sic) is all about. When in history -- and this is a really good question for any reporter.
When in history have we had our poorest people also be our fattest people? That's for the first time here in America. Traditionally, our poorest people have been very skinny and very undernutritioned. We think that calories equals nutrition. It doesn't.
We need to be smarter about the way we deliver our consumables, not just give them money, but actually make sure it's delivered in the right way.
BROWN: Well, and, as you know, look, a lot of food -- poor people live in food deserts without access to healthy food.
But, of course, I think it's important to talk about the food that they're getting and whether they should have access to healthy food and food that is affordable. And, again, that is a big question, how any of this will actually tangibly lower the food prices, which is what Trump said he would do on day one.
Now we're seeing from the administration, well, you're hearing from his vice president, it's going to take more time. You're hearing from Donald Trump, the president saying, well, it's a difficult issue.
But I want to ask also about foreign aid as well, because you are on the Armed Services and Science, Space and Technology committees. Some of this frozen foreign aid includes aid to Afghans who assisted the U.S. military, education and lifesaving medical help for kids and ensuring clean water. Only Egypt and Israel got exemptions.
Does that worry you? Should more allied forces continue to get security assistance?
MCCORMICK: Well, first of all, tell me how Afghanistan, ran by the Taliban, is going to be using our money in the way that we want them to use it.
I served in Afghanistan in 2016. I knew the government was corrupt then. It's one of the reasons that Taliban was able to take over again. When you talk about the feudal system, the warlords versus the Taliban versus legitimate governments, they have a massive problem with waste, fraud and abuse inside, and they will spend it on whatever they want to.
And you know they don't spend it on women and children. You have seen they don't care about women and children when it comes to education and to actually teach them what values can actually make them money and produce a capitalist society that actually gets them out of poverty.
What they care about is a theocracy that maintains power. They have destroyed women's rights, personal rights. They have destroyed their ability to produce a product. And giving them foreign aid is not a good idea until they change their ways.
BROWN: OK, but what about other U.S. allies? I understand your concern about Afghanistan. And you honed in on that one issue, but the bottom line is, should there be exemptions for other U.S. allies beyond Egypt and Israel?
MCCORMICK: Of course there should.
BROWN: OK.
MCCORMICK: Yes, I'm not an isolationist. You will see me very much speaking in support of Ukraine and other countries that I think are very important to our strategic future.
But those are debates to be had. For right now, we have a temporary freeze on certain aid, but I think we can sort this out in rapid order.
BROWN: OK, really quickly, before we let you go, I'm just thinking about everything you have said during this interview. And you have made it very clear you're concerned about government spending, where taxpayer dollars are going, and so forth.
You're clearly fiscally conservative. So I want to get your reaction on the use of these military planes that are being used to deport some of these migrants. It's more -- it's hundreds and thousands of dollars more to use these C-17s.
Oh, OK. I think we just lost the congressman. I was going to ask him about the C-17s that are so costly, hundreds of thousands of dollars more to use to deport these migrants than the typical commercial flights.
But we will have to have him back on and ask him that question another time.
Thanks so much to Rich McCormick.
And still ahead this hour: Trump's choice to head the FBI will go under oath this week and try to convince senators why he is fit for the job. But CNN has some new reporting about how his personal views with career intel officials may have shaped how he will lead.
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[11:19:02]
BROWN: Well, this week on Capitol Hill, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is set to appear before two Senate committees for his confirmation hearings to lead the Department of Health and Human Services.
Kennedy is a well-known vaccine skeptic and his lawyer has actually called on the FDA to revoke approval for the polio vaccine. That attorney, Aaron Siri, says Kennedy has nothing to do with that petition.
Joining us now is Congressman Steve Cohen, a Democrat from Tennessee.
Thanks for coming on.
I should note to our viewers, you are a polio survivor and you have called on the Senate to reject Kennedy's nomination. So, Congressman, thank you for joining us.
Let me just ask you off the bat. Kennedy is now saying, I'm all for the polio vaccine. He has said that in recent weeks since he was named as Trump's pick for HHS secretary. Trump himself has said the polio vaccine is not going away. Do you not believe that?
REP. STEVE COHEN (D-TN): I don't believe much of what Donald Trump says. He changes from day to day. And Bobby seems to be doing the same thing.
[11:20:00]
Bobby has been running around with a bunch of conspiratorial people on vaccines, vaccine skeptics, for years and actually said that the polio vaccine caused more illness and deaths than it's saved, protected and saved.
Well, he's wrong. In 1954, my father was a doctor, gave the polio vaccine to second graders. I was in kindergarten, so I didn't get the polio vaccine. My brother did. I got polio in September after he had the vaccine in his hands in March, but didn't have the protocol to give it to me (AUDIO GAP) hospital for 2.5 months.
I have had problems with my leg over the years. Polio is a part of my life. And I wear a brace now. And I have some difficulties with post- polio. I cannot stand by, nor should Mitch McConnell, and allow this nomination to go through that threatens polio to children and people all over the world.
It's still present in certain parts of the world. It's had a case or two in this country. And we have got a pandemic coming up, and Bobby wasn't real good on the COVID vaccines. And we might be having a bird flu pandemic that'd be worse than COVID. And we have got a problem in Kansas right now with a breakout of tuberculosis.
We need the top doc, the top scientist at the HHS, somebody who believes in science, if not a scientist, and Bobby's not that guy. And that's a very dangerous, dangerous, dangerous nomination to people in the world and the children in the United States.
BROWN: You mentioned Mitch McConnell, Republican in the Senate. He is also a polio survivor. Have you talked to him about this and RFK Jr.'s nomination?
COHEN: To be honest, no. I tried to get him to join me in an op-ed that I wrote that was published in the "USA Today." They said that they had said what they were going to say, and that was it, that they had skepticism and little problems with what he'd done.
Mitch might end up voting no, just as he did on Hegseth. But you got to have four people vote no, and there should be four people. I saw one of my Democratic friends that he might vote for him because he went to law school with him at Virginia.
Well, I have known Bobby since 1980. He's always been nice to me, and we have had a good relationship, but he's not the man for HHS. This is dangerous. And so I need to speak out. And anybody else, Democrat or Republican, should speak up for health (INAUDIBLE) fine.
The NIH -- for him to be in charge of the NIH, to be in charge of the CDC, when he's got all these theories that he's got about vaccines, and he told the people in Samoa that, if they used -- they had a measles outbreak and they shouldn't take the measles vaccine.
Well, they had 81 people die because people listened to him and didn't take the measles vaccine, and it spread and it spread. We need to use -- vaccines are a wonderful panacea in the world that was given to us. And Jonas Salk and Dr. Sabin gave us the polio vaccine and other physicians who had done a great job and scientists producing this.
And we need to use those vaccines and those scientists and abilities, not stop them and put a stop on it, like Trump has done with our financial support for children and people that need food.
BROWN: And just to be clear -- I just want to be clear for our viewers, because there's been a lot to track over the last week-plus, right?
There has been no pledged vow to stop vaccinations from Trump and RFK Jr. They have said they want to do more research. They want to look at them, but that they're not going to just stop vaccines, right? What do you say to that, taking a deeper dive at looking to these vaccines like the polio vaccine?
COHEN: It's not like you have to start something over. When you do, you have more research. You have placebos given to some people and the vaccine given to others. And those with placebos can very easily be vulnerable to the virus because they haven't gotten the vaccine.
These are proven and effective vaccines, and you don't need to start from scratch with somebody who was a lawyer doing environmental work and putting him in charge. I mean, this whole Trump administration is topsy-turvy, and Trump will say anything. He told the people he cared about the people.
He cares about the billionaires. That's what this is all about, is Project 2025, saving money from taking programs away from common, everyday people that need government help and giving it to the wealthiest people in this country.
This is a takeover of our government by Donald Trump to make us like Hungary and Orban and have an authoritarian oligarchy in our country. And it's scary as hell.
BROWN: And that is your view. And there are certainly other Democrats who have come out and echoed that same concern.
But on RFK Jr., I want to just follow up on that, because I have talked to some senators who have said, look, I do not like his past history with vaccines. That really concerns me, but I do like these other initiatives that he is vowing to follow on, such as cutting down on processed foods and clean water and air and fluoride in the water and some of these other issues that are really appealing to a lot of people.
[11:25:00]
And so they're kind of thinking about voting for him because of those other things that he is talking about. What do you say to those senators?
COHEN: Well, first of all, Michelle Obama did a lot of things that Bobby's talking about in changing the children's lunch programs and what they would get to make sure they got vegetables and -- fresh vegetables and fruits.
And that was changed because people revolted against it and the food industry was against it. Bobby's not ahead of Michelle Obama, believe me. And any changes you make are going to be affected by the food industry. Sure, we have too much processed food. Sure, people are overweight and weigh way beyond what they should be, but that's their choices.
And people, no matter what you do -- Mayor Bloomberg tried to get people to stop getting gigantic soft drinks. Well, that didn't go over well either and people continue to eat an unhealthy food and that's what America runs on. We run on McBurgers and fries and unhealthy foods. Put Bobby in some food program. Put him in Iowa and let him work on
agriculture programs, but don't put him in charge of health. Health and food don't necessarily have to go together. There are food programs he could be involved in.
But the idea that he should be put in charge of vaccines and medicines and surgical and different procedures because he has some good idea about processed foods and people losing weight is absurd.
BROWN: Congressman Steve Cohen, thank you for coming on to share your point of view here. We appreciate it, especially given your history as a polio survivor. You have a unique perspective.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Go ahead.
COHEN: Thank you. I do. And it would be wrong for me not to speak out for all the people who've had polio and all the people who might have polio.
It's not a fun disease. And it affects me to these days now. It's called post-polio syndrome.
BROWN: I'm sorry to hear that.
Thank you so much, Congressman.
And still ahead this hour: Just as the Trump administration has allowed ICE agents to look for illegal immigrants in schools and churches, the Oklahoma Board of Education is voting right now on whether to require proof of U.S. citizenship to enroll in school.
We're going to have a live report up next.
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