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RFJ Jr. Senate Confirmation Hearing. Aired 10:30-11a ET
Aired January 29, 2025 - 10:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[10:30:00]
SEN. RON WYDEN (D-OR): Mr. Kennedy, you have spent years pushing conflicting stories about vaccines. You say one thing and then you say another. In your testimony today under oath, you denied that you are anti-vaccine, but during a podcast interview in July of 2023, you said "no vaccine is safe and effective".
In your testimony today, in order to prove you're not anti-vax, you note that all your kids are vaccinated, but in a podcast in 2020, you said and I quote "you would do anything, pay anything to go back in time and not vaccinate your kids". Mr. Kennedy, all of these things cannot be true. So, are you lying to Congress today when you say you are pro vaccine or did you lie on all those podcasts? We have all of this on tape by the way.
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR, TRUMP 2025 NOMINEE, HEALTH SECRETARY: Yes, Senator, as you know, because it's been repeatedly debunked, that statement that I made on the Lex Freedman (ph) Podcast, was a fragment of the statement. He asked me -- and anybody who actually goes and looks at that podcast and -- will see this.
He asked me are there vaccines that are (ph) safe and effective? And I said to him some of the live virus vaccines are. And I said, there are no vaccines that are safe and effective, and I was going to continue for every person -- every medicine has people who are sensitive to them, including vaccines...
WYDEN: Right so...
KENNEDY: ... he interrupted me at that point. I -- I've corrected it many times, including on national TV. You know about this, Senator Wyden, so bringing this up right now is dishonest.
WYDEN: Let's be clear about what you've actually done then, since you want to deny your statements. For example, you have a history of trying to take vaccines away from people.
In May of 2021, you petitioned the Food and Drug Administration to not only block Americans from having access to the COVID vaccines, but to prevent any future access to the lifesaving vaccine. Are you denying that? Your name is on the petition.
KENNEDY: We brought that petition after CDC recommended a (ph) COVID vaccine without any scientific basis for 6 year old children. Most experts agree today, even the people who didn't back then, COVID (ph) vaccines are inappropriate for 6 year old children who basically have a zero risk from COVID. That's why I brought that lawsuit.
I don't want to...
WYDEN: Mr...
KENNEDY: ... I want to emphasize this, I don't...
WYDEN: ... Mr. Kennedy, the facts...
PROTESTER: (OFF-MIKE)
SEN. MIKE CRAPO (R-ID): The Committee will be in order. And to the audience...
PROTESTER: (OFF-MIKE)
KENNEDY: Senator, I'm not (inaudible)...
CRAPO: If you'll hold off for a second, Mr. Kennedy. To the audience, comments from the audience are inappropriate and out of order. And if there are any further disruptions, the Committee will recess until the police can restore order. Please follow the rules of the Committee.
Mr. Kennedy, you may proceed.
KENNEDY: I also want to point out that your recitation of what happened in Samoa is absolutely wrong, and you know it's wrong...
WYDEN: Well, we'll (ph) -- we'll get -- we'll get to that -- we'll get to that...
KENNEDY: ... and you know it's wrong.
WYDEN: ... in a moment. Right now, we're talking about the petition that you filed to block Americans from having access to the vaccine and to prevent any future access to the vaccine. Those facts are on the record.
My third question to you is you made almost $5 million from book deals, mostly promoting junk science. In 2021, in a book called The Measles Book, you wrote that parents had been "misled" into believing that measles is a deadly disease and that measles vaccines are necessary, safe and effective.
The reality is measles are in fact, deadly and highly contagious, something that you should have learned after your lies contributed to the deaths of 83 people, most of them children in a measles outbreak in Samoa. So, my question here is Mr. Kennedy, is measles deadly, yes or no?
KENNEDY: The death rate from measles historically in this country -- in 1963, the year before the introduction of the vaccine, was 1 in 10,000. Let me explain what happened in Samoa. Samoa, in 2017 -- or 2015, there were two kids who died following the MMR vaccine in -- and (ph) -- and that (ph) vaccination rates in Samoa dropped precipitously from about 63 percent to the mid-30s, so they (ph) never been very high.
[10:35:07]
And in 2018, two more kids died following the MMR vaccine. And the government in Samoa banned the MMR vaccine. I arrived a year later when vaccination rates were already below the -- below any -- any previous level.
I -- I (ph) went there, nothing to do with vaccines, I went there to introduce a medical infomatics (ph) system with digitalized records in Samoa and make health delivery much more efficient. I never taught or gave any public statement about vaccines. You cannot find a single Samoan who will say I didn't get a vaccine because of Bobby Kennedy.
In (ph) -- I went in June of 2019, the measles outbreak started in August, oh (ph) clearly, I had nothing to do with the measles. Not only that, Senator...
WYDEN: Mr. Kennedy, my -- my time -- my time...
KENNEDY: ... not only that -- if you'll let me finish, Senator...
WYDEN: ... my -- you have had some time and I'm going to respond...
KENNEDY: If you'll let me finish. There were (ph) 83 people died. When the tissue samples were sent to New Zealand, not -- most of those people did not have measles. We don't know what was killing them. The same outbreak occurred in Tonga and Fiji and no extra (ph) people died. There were seven measles outbreaks in the 13 years prior to my (ph) arrival...
WYDEN: (Inaudible) Chairman I just would like to get my time back. The nominee wrote a book saying that people had been misled into believing that measles is a deadly disease. He's trying now to play down his role in Samoa. That's not what the parents say. That's not what Governor Green (ph) says. It's time to make sure that we blow the whistle on actually what your views are. At least we're starting...
CRAPO: We need to move on...
KENNEDY: Senator, I -- I (ph) support the measles vaccine, I support the polio vaccine. I will do nothing as HHS Secretary that makes it difficult or discourages people from taking either of those vaccines...
WYDEN: Any -- anybody who believes that ought to look at the measles book you wrote saying parents have been misled into believing that measles is a deadly disease. That's not true.
CRAPO: We need to move on. Senator Grassley?
SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY (R-IA): Welcome. I'm going to do like I did in my office, I'm just going to make some points to you. I got about seven I want to quickly get done, and then at the end, I'm going to ask if you disagree with anything I say, and then address those things you disagree with.
I'll make sure and save time for you to do that. A key responsibility of each member of Congress is oversight. Oversight allows us to hold bureaucrats accountable to the rule of law and it helps keep faith with taxpayers. I expect HHS to provide timely and complete responses to congressional oversight.
Number two, PBMs, something you and I discussed in our (ph) office. I've been working to hold Pharmacy Benefit Managers accountable in order to lower prescription drug prices. I expect you to work with us to hold PBMs accountable. And that may -- even (ph) asking your support for legislation that's before the Congress.
Drug (ph) -- drug pricing, Senator Durbin and I have, for a while, been trying to get a bill passed that requires price disclosures on TV ads for prescription drugs, knowing what something costs before buying it is just common sense. President Trump tried to do this by regulation in his first term, Vice President Vance co-sponsored our bill last Congress. I ask you to support this bill or if you can do it by regulation, to do it by regulation.
On rural healthcare, the previous administration dragged its feet in opening up slots for rural community hospital demonstration programs. It also ignored concerns from rural pharmacies when implementing changes to Medicare Part D and ignored rural needs when it comes to distributing physician residency slots -- I expect you to prioritize rural Americans' healthcare needs.
GRASSLEY: On agriculture, in our meeting earlier this month, we talked at length about agriculture, you prefaced the conversation by saying you will not have jurisdiction over these issues. I expect you to leave agricultural practice regulations to the proper agencies and for the most part, that's USDA and EPA.
On dietary guidelines, I've sent letters to the Secretaries of Agriculture, HHS, requesting that they provide information regarding conflicts of interest on the Dietary Guideline Advisory Committee to increase transparency.
[10:40:05]
I expect you to provide Congress with confidential financial disclosures from the advisory committee before finalizing dietary guidelines. So, we know that nobody has a vested interest in it is having undue influence.
Lastly HHS. Office of Refugee Resettlement Oversight. Last year, I expanded my investigation into HHS's Office of Refugee Resettlement. I wrote two dozen contractors and grantees whose job it is to place unaccompanied children with sponsors. In many cases, children have been placed with improper, vented sponsors, placing them at risk of trafficking. The Biden administration's HHS directed these tax payer funded contractors and grantees to not respond to my inquiry. This is obstruction by the executive branch. I expect you to produce to me the records and data I've requested and instruct HHS contractors to fully cooperate with my investigation. I also expect HHS to not retaliate against any whistleblowers including those who identify OOR's -- ORR's failures to embedding sponsors on the company.
You got 45 seconds to respond.
KENNEDY: Yeah. I -- I agree with all of those provisions, Senator. My approach to administration, HHS will be radical transparency. If members of this committee or other members of Congress want information, the doors are open. I've spent many years litigating against NIH and its sub agencies, I mean to HHS. And its sub agencies, NIH, CDC, FDA, on FOIA issues, trying to get information that we, the taxpayers, paid for, and oftentimes getting back redacted copies after a year or two years of litigation. That should not be the case, and if Congress asks me for information, you will get it immediately.
GRASSLEY: Thank you.
CRAPO: Thank you. Senator Cantwell is next, but until she returns, I will move on to down the list and that would be Senator Cornyn.
CORNYN: Mr. Kennedy, welcome to you and your family, and congratulations. I appreciate Senator Grassley raising the issue of the Office of Refugee Resettlement within the auspices of Health and Human Services.
I think this may surprise people, but that's actually the responsibility of HHS, the Office of Resettlement Relocation. Under the previous administration, as Senator Grassley alluded, there were roughly 500,000 children, unaccompanied minors that were placed with sponsors in the interior of the United States. The previous administration took the position that it was not the federal government's responsibility once these children were placed with these sponsors. But the New York Times, in a series of investigative stories, pointed out that tens of thousands of these children, when they tried to follow up and find out how they were doing, whether they were going to school, whether they were being trafficked or abused, there was no answer and they took the position it was not their responsibility.
So, I look forward to working with you to find those children and to make sure that they're not being abused.
Millions of Americans are experiencing a mild to moderate mental health and substance abuse issues, yet many struggle with timely and effective access. Primary care physicians are most likely to be seeing these individuals as opposed to a specialist. And it makes it important that these individuals, primary care physicians be trained in patient centered care, which would strengthen the integration of behavioral health care with primary care services.
Is this something that you are concerned about? Something you'd be willing to work with us on in order to implement.
KENNEDY: Yes, Senator. Let me just reassure you that President Trump has personally spoken to me about locating those 300,000 children who disappeared over the last four years.
CORNYN: I don't think anybody has a fully accurate number, but it's hundreds of thousands, I agree.
KENNEDY: And many of them, we know, have been sex traffic and childhood slavery, and we -- it is a blight on America's moral authority, and we need to find those kids.
In terms of addiction services and substance abuse services, I -- this is a priority for me.
[10:45:08]
It was a priority for me when I was running for president during my campaign. I was a heroin addict for 14 years. I've been 42 years in recovery. I go to 12/7 (ph) meetings every day, so I hear the stories every day. And I hear the many stories about denial of -- or the -- the barriers to access to care. And we need to improve that and answer specifically to your question. I think we can do that through GMA (ph) to which is a -- a program that is funded by HHS. That is the largest funder for medical school students. And -- and that's one of the things for primary care physicians should be, should understand addiction care.
Addicts almost always go through a cycle where there is a moment where they hit periodic bottoms where they're ready to go into treatment. But it's fleeting and it's momentary. And we have that opportunity to save their lives. And then if we miss that little short window, they're off to the races again.
CORNYN: Let me -- let me -- let me -- I appreciate your answer. Our time is short. Let me get to one more question that I think is very important.
Under the first Trump administration, the number of people receiving HIV treatment in Africa through the President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Release, otherwise known as PEPFAR, it increased -- this is during the first Trump administration, from 13 million people to 18 million people across 50 countries. Primarily in Africa. Africa has about 1.3 billion people today or in 2021. It's projected to have 2.5 billion people by 2050 or 25 percent of the global population. In 2020, PEPFAR reported that 8 -- 2.8 million babies we're born without HIV. That was something that would not have happened but for the PEPFAR program.
So, it has simply been one of the most successful public health programs in the world and saved approximately 26 million lives. Failure to continue this program, in my view, would risk ceding that leadership to adversaries like China. And I'd like to know whether you support the objectives and goals of PEPFAR and would you work with me and my colleagues to make sure that this program continues to provide life saving antiviral drugs to people who are most in need.
KENNEDY: I absolutely support PEPFAR. And I will -- I will happily work with you to strengthen the program.
CRAPO: Thank you. Senator Bennet.
BENNET: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Kennedy, for being here this morning. And I think that, Mr. Chairman, we are -- we are truly through the licking glass this morning here in the U.S. Senate, and this committee is being asked to fulfill a really important responsibility which is to decide whether to confirm Mr. Kennedy to one of the most important health care jobs in America.
And the reason I think it's so important is for many of the reasons you said in your opening statement, which is that we live in the richest country in the world and we have some of the worst health outcomes of any industrialized country in the world. We live in the richest country in the world and we have some of the lowest expect -- health -- life expectancy rates of anybody in the industrialized world. I was a school superintendent before I was in this job Mr. Chairman, and I can tell you that Mr. Kennedy's right, you know, that when I look at the kids in the Denver Public Schools, if we don't change the way we eat in this country, 40 percent of them are going to suffer adult onside -- adult diabetes as a result of -- of their diet.
These are -- and we're -- as I said, spending more than any other country in the world. And our families, every single person's constituents in this Senate are facing chronic shortages when it comes to health care. My friend from Texas, Senator Cornyn, has been a champion on mental health care. We have an epidemic, as he knows, across this country in mental health care, partly because of what the -- the -- the -- the massive social media platforms that were sitting behind the President of the United States have inflicted on our children for their profit in the last decade or so.
So, we have no shortage of challenges to confront and I even agree with some of the diagnosis of -- of -- of Mr. Kennedy.
[10:50:05]
What is so disturbing to me is that out of 330 million Americans, we're being asked to put somebody in this job who has spent 50 years of his life not honoring the tradition that he talked about at the beginning of this conversation, but peddling in half truths, peddling in false statements, peddling in theories that, you know, create doubt about whether or not things that we know are safe are unsafe. Not that every vaccine in America is unsafe, not that you can't possibly have an adverse reaction, but that parents and children in my old school district and school districts all over this country would be better off not getting vaccinated than getting vaccinated.
Unlike his own children who are vaccinated, unlike the people he invited to his house in Los Angeles for their party who were vaccinated. For everybody else, it's about peddling these have truths and he says it was such conviction that you want to believe him.
And, Mr. Kennedy, I just have some, there are many, many things in the record, but I hope that you could answer these questions yes or no. I've tried to ask these in a manner that's faithful to what you actually said, because I didn't want to have a debate about whether you actually said them. So I'm asking you, yes or no, Mr. Kennedy, did you say that COVID-19 was a genetically engineered bioweapon that targets Black and White people but spared Ashkenazi Jews, and Chinese people?
KENNEDY: I didn't say it was deliberately targeted. I just -- I just quoted an NIH-funded, an NIH-published study.
BENNET: Did you say that it targets Black and White people but spared Ashkenazi Jews (inaudible)...
KENNEDY: I quoted a study (inaudible). I quoted an NIH study that...
BENNET: I...
KENNEDY: ... showed that...
BENNET: I'll take that as a yes.
KENNEDY: ... (inaudible)
BENNET: I have to move on.
KENNEDY: ... (inaudible)...
BENNET: I have to move on. Did you say that Lyme disease is a -- is highly likely a materially engineered bio weapon? I made sure I put in the highly likely. Did you say Lyme disease is a highly likely militarily engineered bio weapon?
KENNEDY: I probably did say that.
BENNET: Did you...
KENNEDY: (inaudible)...
BENNET: ... that...
KENNEDY: (inaudible)...
BENNET: OK.
KENNEDY: ... (inaudible)...
BENNET: I want all of our colleagues to hear it Mr. Kennedy. I want them to hear it. You said, yes.
Did you say that exposure to pesticides causes children to become transgender?
KENNEDY: No. I never said that.
BENNET: OK. I have the record that I'll give to the chairman. And he can make his judgment about what you said.
Did you write in your book, and I -- it's undeniable that African American -- African AIDS is an entirely different disease from Western AIDS. Yes or no, Mr. Kennedy?
KENNEDY: IQ. I'm not sure. If I may (inaudible)...
BENNET: I'll give it to the chairman.
Mr. -- Mr. Kennedy, and my final question. Did you say on a podcast, and I quote, "I wouldn't leave -- it" abortion, "to the states. My belief is we should leave it to the woman. We shouldn't have the government involved even if it's full term." Did you say that Mr. Kennedy?
KENNEDY: (inaudible). Senator, I believe that every abortion is a tragedy.
BENNET: Did you say it, Mr. Kennedy?
KENNEDY: (inaudible)
BENNET: This -- it matters. It doesn't matter what you come here and say that isn't true. That's not reflective of what you really believe that you haven't said over a decade after decade after decade because unlike other jobs we're confirming around this place, this is a job where it is life and death for the kids that I used to work for in the Denver Public Schools, and for families all over this country, that are suffering from living in the richest country of the world, that can't deliver basic health care, and basic mental health care to them. It's too important for the games that you're playing, Mr. Kennedy.
And I hope my colleagues will say to the president, I have no influence over him. I hope my colleagues will say to the president, out of 330 million Americans we can do better than this.
CRAPO: Thank you. We need to move on.
Senator Cassidy?
CASSIDY: Mr. Kennedy, President Trump has sworn to protect Medicare. Republicans are exploring reforms to Medicaid that could help pay for Trump administration priorities. With this context, what will you do about Dual Eligibles?
KENNEDY: About?
CASSIDY: Dual Eligibles?
KENNEDY: Well Dual Eligibles are not right now served very well under the system. Those are people who are eligible for both Medicaid and Medicare. And you know, the -- I suppose my answer to that is to make sure that the -- that the programs are consolidated, that they're integrated, and the care is integrated.
[10:55:11]
I look forward to working with you Dr. Cassidy on making sure that we take good care of people who are Dual...
CASSIDY: Thank you.
KENNEDY: ... Eligible.
CASSIDY: And how would we -- how do you propose that we integrate those programs? Does Medicare pay more? Medicare pay less? Medicaid pay more? Medicaid pay less? How do we do that?
KENNEDY: Well (inaudible) -- I'm -- I'm not exact exactly sure because I'm not in there. I mean it is difficult to integrate them because Medicaid is -- Medicare is under Fee for Service, is paid for by employer taxes. Medicaid is a -- has a -- is fully paid for by the federal government. And it's not Fee for Service. So it's -- I don't -- I do not know the answer to that. I look forward to exploring options with you.
CASSIDY: Republicans again are looking at ways to potentially reform Medicaid to help you know, pay for President Trump's priorities but to improve outcomes. What thoughts do you have regarding Medicaid reform?
KENNEDY: Well, Medicaid is not working for Americans. And it's specifically not working for the target population. Most Americans like myself, I'm on Medicare Advantage. I'm very happy with it. Most people who are on Medicaid are not happy. The premiums are too high. The deductibles are too high. The networks are narrow. The best doctors will not accept it. And the best hospitals.
And particularly Medicaid was originally designed for a target population, the poorest Americans. It's now been dramatically expanded. And the irony of the expansion is that the poorest Americans are now being robbed. Their services have dramatically decreased, even though we've increased the price of Medicare by 60 percent over the last four years. The target population is being robbed.
CASSIDY: Would that (inaudible)...
KENNEDY: ... (inaudible) other options.
CASSIDY: Obviously you've thought about that. And I appreciate that.
What reforms do you recommend, again, that would improve services I suppose but also make it more it more cost efficient?
KENNEDY: Well President Trump has -- said -- has given me the charge of improving quality of care and lowering the price of care for all Americans. There are many things that we can do. I mean what we want to -- the ultimate outcome I think is to increase transparency, to increase accountability, and to transition to a to a value-based system rather than a fee-based system...
CASSIDY: So (inaudible)...
KENNEDY: ... as a service-based system.
CASSIDY: ... on Medicaid in particular, can you just kind of take those kind of general principles and apply it to the Medicaid program? KENNEDY: You know, I listen I think that there is -- there are many, many, options with Telemedicine, with AI, right now. And you know, there's a -- including direct Primary Care Systems, we're seeing that movement grow across the country. There's a -- one of the largest providers (inaudible)...
CASSIDY: So knowing -- so going back to back to Medicaid though and speaking of these specific advances, how would you -- what reforms are you proposing with these ideas vis-a-vis Medicaid?
KENNEDY: Well, I don't have a proposal for dismantling the program.
CASSIDY: I did not say -- of course not saying that.
KENNEDY: I think what we need to do is, we need to experiment with pilot programs in each state. We need to keep our eye on the ultimate goal which is value-based care, which is transparency, accountability, access.
CASSIDY: And one more. You mentioned earlier the Medicare Fee for Service. Do you have any kind of thoughts as to whether or not patients on Fee for Service should move into MA or how should we handle that?
KENNEDY: Whether patients...
CASSIDY: Who are on Medicare Fee for Service.
KENNEDY: ... traditional Medicare?
CASSIDY: Yes.
KENNEDY: That's their choice right now. I mean I -- we have -- I think 32 million Americans or 30 million Americans on Medicare -- on traditional Medicare. And then another 34 or 30 -- 34 on Medicare Advantage; roughly half and half. And I think more people would rather be on Medicare Advantage because it offers very good services. But people can't afford it. It's much more expensive.
[10:59:58]