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FAA Indefinitely Closes Helicopter Routes Reagan National Airport; Trump Reacts on Deadly Midair Collision; Black Hawk May Have Been Flying Too High; FBI Senior Leaders Ordered to Retire or Resign or Fired by Monday. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired January 31, 2025 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[10:30:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news into CNN this morning. We are learning that the FAA has indefinitely closed helicopter routes right near Reagan national airport following Wednesday's deadly midair collision between a passenger jet and military Black Hawk helicopter. Officials say they have recovered both flight data recorders known as black boxes from the wreckage of the American airlines jet that was carrying 64 people. But the black box from the helicopter has still not been recovered.

And the New York Times is reporting that the helicopter may have been flying outside its approved path at a higher altitude than it was supposed to. And as we continue learning more about the moments leading up to that fatal collision, CNN joined commercial pilot and flight instructor Aaron Murphy to simulate what pilots see as they navigate this complicated airspace.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AARON MURPHY, COMMERCIAL PILOT AND FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR: Looking out the window right now, for example, you see how the lights have a bit of a twinkling effect. A lot of that can camouflage other aircraft the lights within that carpeting of lights. It can be very difficult to see other moving vehicles. And not only that, but then you have moving vehicles on the roadways in the lights.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Aaron Murphy joins us now. Hi, Aaron. So, I want to note that the simulator you're in is a Boeing 737, not a CRJ 700 like the aircraft involved in the crash, but this is essentially -- my understanding, it's essentially the same thing that any pilot would see on approach to Reagan National Airport. How do you think -- just explain further how you think the lights at night could have played a role in what happened? Take us there.

MURPHY: The human factors -- before I get into my explanation, Pamela, thank you so much for having me. I've been following the story. I'm on the edge of tears constantly. I am so in tune with the families and the friends and everyone who was affected by this incredible accident. Let's get on with what everybody needs to know. Flying into any airport at night is an increased risk, increased challenges. The human physiology, we can start with that, your vision is not quite the same in darkness as it is in light. And I think most of us know that already.

[10:35:00]

So, coming into an airport, any airport in the world, literally where there are other aircraft, most definitely there's going to be airplanes, that becomes something you have to mitigate, a risk that must be mitigated. And that mitigation is done through training and procedures. And the only way to really be sure that training and procedures work is we must apply them to the real-world situation and analyze very closely what further risks and what further issues are occurring in the operations.

BROWN: So, I want to dive a little bit deeper into that because you have said that pilots flying into D.C. have to have specialized training to fly into that area. Why is that? And what does that look like?

MURPHY: The D.C. airport, the Reagan National is just so busy and the airspace is a little bit compressed because of all the restricted airspace with the government buildings surrounding. The -- just the density of the traffic, you need specific training and you need specific guidance when it's your first couple of times into this airport. And that's true of all the major airlines. They will receive that additional extra training for this airport in particular.

BROWN: Yes, because you've called the D.C. area, that airspace a hot spot. What makes this airspace just so complicated? And how do you think the fact that the FAA is now indefinitely banning helicopter routes in that area will play a role and help out?

MURPHY: The number one threat, as we'll call it, would be the helicopter routes and they're flying beneath the aircraft in a routine way. We look at the statistics of that particular interaction, and so far, it's been OK. Near misses have been -- there's been a few in the area, that's for sure.

What we have found out, of course, now too late that the procedures and the training for this specific threat, this specific airport clearly is not the best way to be doing this.

BROWN: So, tell me a little bit more about the TCAS system, if you're still there, because that's supposed to alert aircraft if there is going to be, you know, the potential for a collision. Why didn't that prevent this from happening here?

MURPHY: That's a great question, Pamela. I'm obviously in the captain's seat of the 737 and in the center pedestal area right between the pilots is where the TCAS system is typically located.

The TCAS shares a little box with what's called the transponder. And the TCAS itself is a Traffic Collision Avoidance System. So, it has a T.A. and an R.A. The T.A. Is the Traffic Advisory. So, it's going to put up information on the navigation displays to tell the pilots where the airplanes are in the local area.

Now, the targets are changing their positions on this screen. These targets are also showing their elevation -- their changes in elevation as well. So, it's very helpful to be able to see that. And as the targets move closer to your target, and in our case, we have a white triangle on the navigation display. You probably can't see this very well. The targets will change color. And then the system will call out traffic, traffic, if you're not really alert here or you haven't noticed it yet, traffic, traffic. And we're already ahead of that for sure. So, that's the advisory section of that.

The resolution of -- the R.A. resolution is where when that aircraft -- that threat becomes too close to our aircraft, I will actually get indications on my primary flight display and it will tell me, climb, climb now. These systems are interconnected between the aircraft independent of air traffic control and human intervention.

So, the other aircraft will receive a descend, descend now. So, the airplanes are doing two different things. The fastest way to get away from another person or another object is the opposite direction. All right. So, that's extremely important.

I just want to lead us into how this could possibly have not worked in this situation, in this specific situation of arriving at Reagan National and the circling approach or even the straight approach to 01, the circle to 33. The issue here is that the TCAS was probably -- not probably, the TCAS was indicating correctly and probably giving warnings, there is an inhibit below 1,000 feet. The screens would be showing the information, air traffic control is guiding the aircraft and making sure separation is maintained, and this is where it leads into some questions I have regarding the actual ATC communications.

And this is not a blame. This -- nobody in this situation is to blame. This is an extremely busy airport with an extremely high rate of operation and its procedure and its training that are the downfalls of this situation, things that we have created that are not quite good enough. We need to improve on that.

[10:40:00]

BROWN: Right. Just to quickly follow up. Would you have expected the communication with the Black Hawk helicopter from ATC to have happened sooner than what we know, and that is, it was only around 13 seconds when the ATC asked the Black Hawk helicopter, do you see this plane? It said yes, request visual separation. That's one of the questions coming out of this. And again, not to blame anyone, but it's just -- we're trying to wrap our heads around this.

MURPHY: We need to go through the details, and this is what the investigators will do. They will go through with a microscope, and that's why they're so good at what they do. They get right to the bottom. And while they're doing that, other things are overturned, and other things are discovered as that's happening. I'm glad you're pointing this out, because this is something I noticed also on the radio communications. The two aircraft, according to radar information that I have seen, because of the circle approach to land on 33 on part of the R.J. and the position of the Black Hawk PAT 25 coming down the river, they are directly heading towards each other for quite a period of time. This is when you can lose the other aircraft in the lights of the city beneath you, because they're both at low altitude at this point. So, the lighting is starting to affect and camouflage both aircraft from each other.

The point I'm seeing here is as the Black Hawk helicopter moved towards the R.J. and ATC asked, do you have the other aircraft? My only thing that I've noticed in my years and years of analyzing and studying aviation and all the things that go with it, in air traffic control especially, they have a very special role. We absolutely cannot live without them. And at the same time, a simple word or two added or not added to the communication can make the entire difference of a near miss, a collision, or otherwise.

In my opinion, the only thing that and I can't -- it's not a criticism, it's not a judgment, it is nothing. It's us examining procedures and training. I would only say if the ATC controller was able to say, if he had time to get the words out, do you have the R.J. at your 12:00? Because I think the Black Hawk crew was looking at another aircraft.

BROWN: Yes, I've heard that from others as well. Let me just say that I think being an air traffic controller is probably one of the hardest jobs in the world. We're actually, later in the show, going to talk to a former air traffic controller and it's just -- I can't even imagine. Aaron Murphy, thank you so much. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:45:00]

BROWN: We're getting brand new reaction this morning from President Trump on the deadly midair collision that killed 67 people. CNN's Alayna Treene is live at the White House. Alayna, what is the President saying today about the crash?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Well, Pamela, we did hear, as you said, from Donald Trump directly again today, and he suggested this morning on True Social that perhaps the Black Hawk helicopter was flying too high at the point of that midair collision.

I'm going to read for you exactly what he wrote. He said, quote, "The Black Hawk helicopter was flying too high, by a lot. It was far above the 200-foot limit. That's not really too complicated to understand, is it?"

Now, Pamela, it's unclear whether the president's post there was based on an official briefing, or if this was him offering his opinion on this, as he said he was going to be doing yesterday. But it does come, I would like to note, after we -- after The New York Times reported, I should say, that the helicopter in the collision on Wednesday may have been flying outside of its approved flight path, that it might have been flying at a higher altitude than it was supposed to. And also, it might have been at least half a mile off of the approved route.

We also heard from Pete Hegseth, the new defense secretary this morning on this. He had suggested that perhaps one of the aircraft was flying at a wrong altitude. But he said this morning, we don't quite know.

Now, I do want to be clear here, Pamela, there are still, of course, so many unanswered questions about what exactly led to that collision on Wednesday. But we have heard Donald Trump continue to double and triple down on his claims that, I should say, he is making without evidence that perhaps some of the Obama and Biden administration's policies and politics, including whether the hiring policies, specifically regarding DEI hiring practices may have played a role in this.

We did see the president yesterday issue a presidential memorandum opening an investigation into what the White House was calling the, quote, "damage done to aviation safety under the Biden administration," also specifically says it's going to dig deeper into that claim of whether DEI hiring practices could have played a role. Pamela.

BROWN: All right. Alayna Treene, thank you. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:50:00]

BROWN: We have new CNN reporting this morning. A purge is spreading over at the FBI. Six senior leaders are being ordered to retire, resign, or face being fired by Monday. CNN's Evan Perez is tracking this. So, what are we learning about these FBI officials and why they're targeted here?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, the numbers are growing. We know of at least six senior leaders, these are people at the executive assistant director level, people who are special agents in charge in some key offices around the country. And the commonality here, you know, that I've heard from transition folks just weeks ago was that people who were promoted under Chris Wray were being looked at.

And so, the problem is, obviously, Chris Wray was the director for the last seven years. So, there's a lot of people who he's promoted. And so, they have now been given this choice. These officials were brought in and told to either retire, resign or be fired by Monday.

And some of this -- some of the notifications, Pamela, happened yesterday, while Kash Patel was sitting in the chair at the Senate Judiciary Committee answering questions from senators for his confirmation hearing. They were getting -- this was happening at the FBI headquarters as Kash Patel was across town answering those questions. I also know that the FBI Agents Association had met with Kash Patel to get some reassurances that people weren't going to be targeted, and he didn't offer any.

[10:55:00]

So, what is the practical effect of this?

PEREZ: Well, the practical effect is that, you know, I think we can play this clip in a few weeks when there will be some kind of incident in this country, perhaps a terrorist attack, and you can look back and see whether what has happened, the disruptions that are happening at the FBI right now, whether they had a role in what might happen in the next few weeks. That's the real concern, is that, you know, investigations that the FBI might be taking its eye off the ball because inside there's so much turmoil. And you have people who now are working without leadership inside the FBI.

BROWN: All right. Evan Perez, thank you. Let's just hope that doesn't happen. But that is the big worry.

Coming up, I'll speak to a former air traffic controller who personally shut down the New York City airspace on 9/11.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:00:00]