Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Now, RFK Jr. Facing Critical Vote That Could Determine Fate; Finance Committee Chair Says, I Will Vote in Favor of RFK Jr. for HHS Secretary; RFK Jr. Approved in Party-Line Vote By Committee. Aired 10- 10:30a ET

Aired February 04, 2025 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:00:00]

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Right now, a key test in Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s path to Health and Human Services secretary. His fate coming down to just one senator, a Republican from Louisiana.

Plus, an urgent call for help from East Palestine, Ohio, the head of the EPA, Lee Zeldin, will join me live, what's the first thing he plans to do to make the village safe.

And later, supply chains stunned and your wallet could pay the price, the trade war deepening this morning. The head of the National Association of Manufacturers will join me with his message to the White House.

Good morning, Pamela Brown is on assignment. I'm Phil Mattingly in Washington and you are live in the CNN Newsroom.

Just minutes from now, a make-or-break moment for President Trump's pick to lead the nation's top health agency. RFK Jr. faces a critical vote from the Senate Finance Committee, and all eyes are on one of the panel's Republicans, Senator Bill Cassidy. His vote will determine whether Kennedy advances to the Senate floor.

Here with us to break it all down, CNN's Manu Raju, Alayna Treene, and Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

Let me go first to you, Manu Raju. We've been watching you buttonhole senators over the course of the last 20 or 30 minutes. What is the word right now on Capitol Hill about where Cassidy is leaning?

MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And, Phil, we're waiting right outside the Senate Finance Committee, where just in a matter of moments, the big question is going to be what does Senator Bill Cassidy do. He, of course, is a Louisiana Republican. He's up for reelection in 2026. He's also a medical doctor who's expressed concern about RFK Jr.'s views about vaccines. At last week's hearing, he said that he was struggling with how RFK Jr. is dealing, just wouldn't knock down the notion that vaccines are linked to childhood autism. Now, after that remark in which he said he was struggling, he did have extended conversations with Kennedy on Sunday. But in talking to Cassidy yesterday, he was very clear he was not ready yet to make a decision on how he will ultimately come down. But if he votes no in this committee, that could be enough to scuttle this nomination all together. But at the moment, Phil, we don't know exactly how he'll come down. If he does vote yes, that means he'll join with all the other Republicans on this committee, allowing this nomination to advance by the narrowest of margins, sending it ultimately to the Senate floor, where he could only lose at most three Republican votes on what we expect to be a party line vote on the Senate floor.

But this vote, critical. What will Bill Cassidy do, someone who has not been in -- who is facing a primary challenge already in 2026, someone who voted to convict Donald Trump in his second impeachment trial, someone who is taking this nomination incredibly seriously and concerned about RFK Jr.? Does he fall in line? Does he stand in the way of it? That's what we'll be watching here in a matter of minutes, Phil.

MATTINGLY: Alayna, over to you in the North Lawn of the White House. Manu's context there is critical. This is not kind of the rank and file Republican who will go along to get along. He has bucked Trump and Trump supporters in the past. He has clearly kept his own counsel and really been struggling with this decision. What are White House officials thinking right now?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, I actually just moments ago, Phil, caught up with White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt. And she almost offered a bit of a warning shot to Republicans saying that they expect all Senate Republicans to line up behind Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

I want you to take a listen to what she told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: We expect him to be confirmed, and he should be. He's brilliant. He's widely respected, and the president campaigned alongside him. Make America healthy again, that is a very popular slogan and it's a very popular movement in this country. And there's tens of millions of Americans who are hopeful that RFK Jr. will be the next HHS secretary, and we expect all Senate Republicans to stand tough and strong and vote for him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: Stand tough and strong and vote for him. Of course, as Manu mentioned, Senator Cassidy is up for re election next year, so all of this, of course, weighing heavily on this vote.

But I also want to just talk about some reporting we had over the weekend, which is that we know that President Donald Trump himself, as well as his allies, including Vice President J.D. Vance, have been making calls to senators trying to shore up support for RFK Jr. as well as Tulsi Gabbard, who has her own Senate Confirmation Committee hearing later today.

[10:05:00]

They have been very involved in trying to make sure that they can get these two nominees over the line, especially after we saw both of them and Kennedy included, of course, face some of the sharpest and most skeptical questioning, not only from Democrats, but also from Republicans.

Now, one quick other thing I do just want to share is that moments ago as well, obviously minutes before this key vote, we did see the president post a Truth Social. I just want to quickly reference what he said. He said, 20 years ago, autism and children was 1 in 10,000. Now, it's 1 in 34. Wow. Something's really wrong. We need Bobby.

Now, this is something we have heard president Donald Trump referenced before this idea that perhaps autism and vaccines are linked. I think obviously it plays into this question and the big concerns weighing on Senator Cassidy.

I do want to be clear, though, study after study for decades, Phil, has shown that there is no link between vaccines and autism, but noteworthy, of course, given that this is what we are hearing directly from the president as these senators are considering this vote.

MATTINGLY: Yes. Sanjay, over to you on that point, we play this game -- we watch people play this game constantly, just raising questions. Just why could this be happening? I'm not saying anything specifically. The facts here, what are they?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and just a little bit of the context as well, you know, Senator Cassidy is a doctor, as Manu mentioned, a gastroenterologist who worked with vaccines, helped set up these nonprofits to administer vaccines, including some of the ones that were a topic of discussion in last week's hearing. So, there's a huge context for Senator Cassidy and his role as a physician.

But, yes, this idea that -- look, there was a question mark, could vaccines be related to autism? We're talking in the late 90s this came up from a now debunked paper, but it still came up and it raised people's questions and their concerns. So, it was studied. That's the point that I think Senator Cassidy was making last week. You ask for data. Well, that data has been collected.

And we talk about huge data, hundreds of thousands of kids. They basically looked and they said, well, let's look at the ones who were vaccinated. Let's look at the children who were not vaccinated. Let's follow them for a certain number of years. Let's exclude certain factors like did they have a family history? Did they have some sort of risk factor? What was their age at the time of vaccination? Let's control for all of that and ask a basic question. Is there a correlation between vaccines and autism? And the answer has come back repeatedly in many studies, like the one you just saw on the screen, no, there's not. So, you know, this idea that people say, well, if you show me the studies, then I'm willing to change my mind, well, they've seen the studies and it doesn't appear that the minds have been changed on the idea that vaccines might cause autism.

So, where do you go next? What does that mean? I think that's what we're about to sort of see how that unfolds.

MATTINGLY: Yes, and it's such a great point. The data is there. The studies are there. That's the thing that they've been asking for with the whole just raising questions shtick. It's irresponsible and they know what they're doing when they do that.

Sanjay, from a broader perspective, I think what's fascinating about Cassidy haven't covered for years, he's a walk, right? He's not a big kind of show horse-type guy. Part of his issues were not just vaccines, it was also just the actual structure of what Robert Kennedy's job would be. What would it be? What would he be overseeing here?

GUPTA: I mean, he would be the CEO of the largest health enterprise in the world. And that includes things like Medicare and Medicaid, which is, as you remember, Phil, we were sitting next to each other, that was an area of questioning for Senator Cassidy. Tell me how you would, you know, address Medicare and Medicaid. Do you understand the various parts of Medicare and Medicaid? And is that important for the HHS Secretary to know these things? I think Cassidy was not satisfied with the answers he received at that time.

But to your question it's, HHS is many different agencies, including CDC, including Medicare, Medicaid, you know, the agencies that oversee that. It's close to $2 trillion if you count discretionary spending that HHS has control over. So, it's really -- you know, you think about anything, health, science, public health related in this country and really the impact on the world, it would be under his auspices.

MATTINGLY: Manu, quickly over to you because I think I just saw Chairman Mike Crapo sit down. It looks like we're going to get started shortly. The pressure here, the political pressure there is, as Karoline Leavitt laid out, a movement behind Kennedy and his nomination. What are you hearing on the Hill on that front?

RAJU: Yes, no question about it. There would be significant blowback for any member who breaks ranks, particularly one who could scuttle a nominee, cabinet nominee. A lot of Republican senators and Democratic senators, they don't like to step out of line with their president of their own party, particularly when it comes to these issues. They like to vote. If they vote no, it's usually in a group, which will make it incredibly difficult for Bill Cassidy to step away from the rest of his party as they're trying to push this nomination forward. That's in committee. On the floor, there're several other Republican senators who have not said how they'll ultimately vote on the Senate floor.

[10:10:00]

Phil, one other thing we need to watch out for this afternoon is the nomination of Tulsi Gabbard to be the next director of National Intelligence. She's hanging by a thread because of one Republican senator on that Senate Intelligence Committee. That's Senator Todd Young who just walked into the room. He still will not answer questions moments ago when we asked him if he would support Tulsi Gabbard's nomination.

So, that's something to watch this afternoon. Two key committees, two nominees hanging by a thread by two senators, Republican senators who have not said how they'll vote. Bill Cassidy still, at this moment, unclear whether he's going to break ranks and could scuttle this nomination in this committee, or will join with his party advancing to the floor, setting a major test for one of the most important positions in government, Phil.

MATTINGLY: Yes, a huge day for the nominations. Manu, Alayna, Sanjay, stay with me. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTINGLY: Welcome back. You are now watching the Senate Finance Committee meeting, where they will be voting to advance Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s nomination to be HHS Secretary.

SEN. MIKE CRAPO (R-ID): -- for that to occur, we will proceed with statements. And I will proceed first, then Senator Wyden, and then we will rotate from one side to the other until we are at a point where we are prepared for the vote.

Is that fair with you, Senator Wyden?

SEN. RON WYDEN, D-OR : Yes, sir.

SEN. MICHAEL CRAPO (R-ID): Mr. Kennedy, if confirmed, will have the opportunity to deliver much needed change to our nation's health care system. He has spent his career fighting to end America's chronic illness epidemic and has been a leading advocate for health care transparency, both for patients and for taxpayers.

Mr. Kennedy has also clearly responded to our questions during the rigorous due diligence process in his hearing also, and in the course of answering over 900 questions for the record that were asked by members of this committee.

In response to members of the committee, Mr. Kennedy has even amended his ethics agreement going beyond what is required by the Government Office of Ethics. Mr. Kennedy has proven his commitment to the role of Secretary of the HHS, and I will vote in favor of his nomination. I strongly encourage my colleagues on both sides of the aisle to do the same.

And with that, I recognize our Ranking Member, Senator Wyden, for his remarks.

WYDEN: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I'll have a brief statement and then several of my colleagues on our side are also going to make brief statements.

This morning, we're going to vote on Robert Kennedy's nomination to serve as our nation's chief healthcare officer. Before we get to Mr. Kennedy and why I believe he is singularly unfit to serve as HHS Secretary, I'd like to say this.

The last several days we've witnessed an authoritarian takeover of our federal government by Elon Musk and Donald Trump. They have set their sights on a full purge of anyone in government that doesn't bend the knee and follow their orders.

They've taken over the Treasury Department's payment system. And, colleagues, that has a direct effect on major programs within our committee's jurisdiction that include Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.

For example, this committee voted for a major reform of pharmacy benefit manager legislation. We passed it 26 to nothing, but Trump and Musk killed it. Think what they could do with abuse of the payment system.

[10:15:00]

Now, in my view, much of this is of dubious legality and constitutional authority, and certainly, flies in face of congressional responsibilities. I'll wrap up on this point by saying I hope our colleagues on the other side of the aisle will not sit by while Musk and Trump make a mockery of the power Republicans hold in their congressional majority.

Now more than ever, the American people need leaders that will stand up to these abuses. That brings me to Mr. Kennedy. A recent analysis showed that Mr. Kennedy has made 114 separate appearances in just the last four years where he has espoused anti-vaccine views or spread information about the efficacy of vaccines -- misinformation, specifically. In 36 of those instances, Mr. Kennedy directly linked vaccines to autism.

Last week, Mr. Kennedy was given ample authority on a bipartisan basis to recant his decades-long career peddling anti-vaccine conspiracies. Instead, he spent his time with us dodging and weaving, and gave no indication that if confirmed as HHS Secretary, he would stand by the long-settled science surrounding routine vaccinations.

Just take the Samoa measles outbreak as an example. Mr. Kennedy told me, and I quote, "We don't know what was killing them," speaking about the 83 measles deaths during an outbreak of the disease in 2019.

Just yesterday, colleagues, the Director General of Health from Samoa called this claim a total fabrication. Peddling these conspiracy theories as the nation's chief health officer is going to be deadly for kids across the country.

On abortion, Mr. Kennedy's answers once again raised still more questions. He refused to tell us whether he would blindly follow a directive from Donald Trump to break the law and end access to Mifepristone. And he seemed to have no understanding of his role in enforcing existing federal laws that guarantee women the right to life-saving abortion care.

Mr. Kennedy also failed, on several occasions, to show a basic understanding of the Medicare and Medicaid programs he would be tasked with overseeing. Colleagues, that alone should be disqualifying.

Mr. Kennedy has given us no reason to believe he'll be anything other than a rubber stamp for plans to gut Medicaid and rip healthcare away from the American people, and be a yes man if ordered by Musk or Trump to take an illegal action.

I close with this, colleagues. Today we're going to make a judgment about the future of science in this country. We're going to make decisions that are going to impact the health and well-being of Americans for years to come.

I agree, and I say this to my colleagues on both sides of the aisle, that the healthcare status quo needs substantial changes so we get better, more affordable care to patients. And that leaves, given my statement, the question in front of us now, that's pretty simple.

Do senators want their legacy to include disregarding basic health science. and instead elevate conspiracy theorists? Making Robert Kennedy secretary of Health and Human Services, in my view, colleagues, would be a grave threat to the health of the American people? And I urge my colleagues this morning to vote no.

CRAPO: We have everybody here?

WYDEN: Yes.

CRAPO: (OFF-MIKE)

WYDEN: Two or three on each of them on the vote.

SEN. MARIA CANTWELL (D-WA) (?): Can I go?

WYDEN: Yeah. We're going to do it.

CRAPO: So, Senator Wyden, we have all of our members here. Senator Wyden and I have agreed that we will have two or three on each side who wanted to make statements, do so before the vote. So please, everyone, hold with us while we have those statements made, and then we will proceed to the vote.

I know we've got a lot of folks here pushing on some -- do you want to vote now?

(UNKNOWN): Let's go. Let's go.

(UNKNOWN): Mr. Chairman? Mr. Chairman?

WYDEN: Mr. Chairman, I've got several colleagues who were under the impression after we talked that we would have two or three. And I'm happy for both sides to make brief remarks, and I'd still like to stay with that.

CRAPO: I did make that commitment. And so, I could say to my colleagues on my side, I would appreciate it if you would hold your remarks until after the vote. We will let a couple on your side have their remarks, and then we will proceed to the vote.

[10:20:00]

WYDEN: Great. Thank you.

CRAPO: And who would be next?

WYDEN: Senator Cantwell.

CRAPO: Senator Cantwell?

CANTWELL: Mr. Chairman, thank you. I didn't, you know, when you said two or three people, I didn't know who you had in mind, but being next in seniority, I appreciate the opportunity.

Today is very concerning to me because of the future of what I think our nation faces. When I think of this issue, I think of my Pacific Northwest leadership, how Paul Allen on his own, invested $100 million to fight Ebola.

I think of Bill Gates and the Gates Foundation, not just trying to eradicate polio and work on these issues, but to think of a regime that helps not just our nation's health, but global health.

So, with the UDAV (ph), the University of Washington, the Cancer Research Center, all of these entities are a collaboration of saying we have to go faster in solving these threats to our nation as it relates to health.

Now, we can have a big discussion, which I think you guys all want to have a big discussion about whether and when what happened in the Wuhan province. But I can tell you, we were the first city. We had the first patient. We had the first people who died in nursing homes. We had an emergency room at a hospital who basically was just begging for any equipment we could get them.

The whole community stood up and moved as fast as we possibly could and broke down barriers to save lives. And that is what we have to continue to do on innovation. We cannot let another country get ahead of us on some sort of warfare issue and not have a response when it comes to a vaccine.

So, the most challenging -- I wanted to vote for Mr. Kennedy in the context of my family's history. My dad stood behind his father the night his father gave the famous speech. I told him in my office, "In my family, the Kennedys stood up."

But when he answered Senator Cassidy's question, and he couldn't even give him the answer, that yes, the data is there to support vaccines today. I don't need any more data. All of a sudden, I saw this world that we got affected by in Seattle, not being stood up for. I need someone at HHS who is going to say we're going to be a leader in medical technology, science, vaccines. We are going to fight foreign powers. We are going to be there to provide global health. And I don't want a recalcitrant. I need a leader. And that is why I'm voting no.

CRAPO: Thank you.

Senator Wyden and I have agreed that Senator Warnock will now speak. Following Senator Warnock, we will proceed to the vote. And then anyone else who wants to make remarks will be allowed to make remarks.

Senator Warnock?

WARNOCK: Thank you so very much, Mr. Chairman.

At a rally a few months ago, Donald Trump said that he was going to allow Mr. Robert Kennedy to, quote, "Go wild on health." Go wild. Of all the things that I can think of that I'd like to see a Secretary of Health and Human Services do, go wild is not on the list.

Mr. Robert Kennedy is manifestly unqualified for the job he seeks. And in both my live and written questions for the record, he failed to commit to protecting access to affordable health care, failed to commit to protecting the people who are protecting us.

The problem that the CDC has is that every day these noble civil servants and workers protect us from dangers that we don't see. And often you don't get credit for protecting people from things that they don't see. I simply do not trust him to oversee the CDC. He's unqualified. And I dare say everybody here knows it.

We need a serious person at the helm of the HHS, an agency responsible for about half of the health -- the health of about half of all Americans. Mr. Kennedy appears more obsessed in chasing conspiracy theories than chasing solutions to lower health care costs for working families in Georgia and to make sure that we are protected.

[10:25:00]

The last thing we need is a dilettante dabbling in conspiracy theories at HHS. I cannot vote for a nominee who is not going to lower health care costs for Georgians, who is going to undermine basic science in public health, who puts his own interests above the health and the well-being of others, for the health and well-being of all of our families, the people who count on us to think about them in these rooms of power.

I urge all of my colleagues on both sides of the aisle to look past politics and think of country and to find the moral courage so do what's right. Oppose this nomination.

CRAPO: Thank you, Senator Warnock.

We now have not only a quorum, but all members of the committee are present. I move that the committee favorably report the nomination of the Honorable Robert F. Jr. of California to be Secretary of Health and Human Services. Is there a second?

UNKNOWN: Second.

CRAPO: There is a second. The clerk will call the roll.

CLERK: Mr. Grassley?

GRASSLEY: Aye.

CLERK: Mr. Grassley, aye.

Mr. Cornyn?

CORNYN: Aye.

CLERK: Mr. Cornyn, aye.

Mr. Thune?

THUNE: Aye.

CLERK: Mr. Thune, aye.

Mr. Scott?

SCOTT: Aye.

CLERK: Mr. Scott, aye.

Mr. Cassidy?

CASSIDY: Aye.

CLERK: Mr. Cassidy, aye.

Mr. Lankford?

LANKFORD: Aye.

CLERK: Mr. Lankford, aye.

Mr. Daines?

DAINES: Aye.

CLERK: Mr. Daines, aye.

Mr. Young?

YOUNG: Aye.

CLERK: Mr. Young, aye.

Mr. Barrasso?

BARRASSO: Aye.

CLERK: Mr. Barrasso, aye.

Mr. Johnson?

JOHNSON: Aye.

CLERK: Mr. Johnson, aye.

Mr. Tillis?

TILLIS: Aye.

CLERK: Mr. Tillis, aye.

Mrs. Blackburn?

BLACKBURN: Aye.

CLERK: Mrs. Blackburn, aye.

CLERK: Mr. Marshall?

MARSHALL: Aye.

CLERK: Mr. Marshall, aye.

Mr. Wyden?

WYDEN: No.

CLERK: Mr. Wyden, no.

Ms. Cantwell?

CANTWELL: No.

CLERK: Ms. Cantwell, no.

Mr. Bennet?

BENNET: No.

CLERK: Mr. Bennet, no.

Mr. Warner?

WARNER: No.

CLERK: Mr. Warner, no.

Mr. Warner?

WARNER: No.

CLERK: Mr. Warner, no. Mr. Whitehouse?

WHITEHOUSE: No.

CLERK: Mr. Whitehouse, no.

Ms. Hassan?

HASSAN: No.

CLERK: Ms. Hassan, no.

Ms. Cortez Masto?

CORTEZ MASTO: No.

CLERK: Ms. Cortez Masto, no.

Ms. Warren?

WARREN: No.

CLERK: Ms. Warren, no.

Mr. Sanders?

SANDERS: No.

CLERK: Mr. Sanders, no.

Ms. Smith?

SMITH: No.

CLERK: Ms. Smith, no.

Mr. Lujan?

LUJAN: No.

CLERK: Mr. Lujan, no.

Mr. Warnock?

WARNOCK: No.

CLERK: Mr. Warnock, no.

Mr. Welch?

WELCH: No.

CLERK: Mr. Welch, no.

Mr. Chairman?

CRAPO: Aye.

CLERK: The CRAPO: votes aye.

Mr. Chairman, the final tally is 14 ayes, 13 nays.

CRAPO: The vote was -- would the clerk please restate the vote?

CLERK: Mr. Chairman, the final tally was 14 ayes, 13 nays.

CRAPO: The vote was 14-13. The nomination is reported favorably. We will now turn to other senators who would like to make a statement. Since I asked my Republican colleagues to hold off at the outset, I'll go to the Republican side next. First, Senator Tillis?

TILLIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I voted aye today, and I want to just briefly explain why.

I believe in my 65 years -- I'll be 65 in August, that Mr. Kennedy will be one of the first people --

MATTINGLY: We have been watching the Senate Finance Committee vote on Robert F. Kennedy's nomination to be the secretary of Health and Human Services. It is very rare these days on Capitol Hill that you go into a hearing or a business meeting like this and don't really have an idea how it's actually going to land. All eyes were on one senator, Senator Bill Cassidy, Republican of Louisiana, and just two minutes before the committee started its vote, Cassidy posted on X, I've had a very intense conversations with Bobby and the White House over the weekend and even this morning. I want to thank Vice President J.D. Vance specifically for his honest counsel with the serious commitments I've received from the administration and the opportunity to make progress on the issues we agree on, like healthy foods and a pro- American agenda, I will vote yes.

You see Cassidy walking out of the hearing room now. The vote was 14- 13. This is a major step forward for Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s nomination to lead the Department of Health and Human Services, a major victory for the Trump White House and for President Trump himself, for whom Kennedy's endorsement in the coalition that he helped bring in was not only a huge political win, but also has been a focal point of his cabinet selections, clearly the most high profile of them, but also the most endangered until this moment.

Here's Bill Cassidy now.

RAJU: What about your trouble last week? What changed? What changed? What changed? What changed?

MATTINGLY: Hey, Manu. Manu, it's Phil. Do you have me?

RAJU: Yes. Yes, I have you, Phil. We were just -- I don't know if you just caught that. We were just trying to catch up with Bill Cassidy, the key vote, of course, in all of this. I asked him what got him to yes. Remember what happened last week at that Senate Finance Committee hearing. He said he was troubled. He was having a hard time getting a yes because of Robert F. Kennedy's previous views and long held views about vaccine skepticism is hedging about whether or not vaccines are linked to childhood autism.

Cassidy, a medical doctor, had a trouble getting to yes, but something changed. And what changed over the weekend?

[10:30:03]

He did not answer that question just now. He said he's going to speak on the Senate floor at 11:40 A.M. Eastern.