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Diddy Moves to Dismiss Federal Charge; Pope Francis Battling Pneumonia; Trump Administration Mistakenly Fires Officials Handling Bird Flu Outbreak. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired February 19, 2025 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Joining us now is director of the Vaccine Education Center at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, Dr. Paul Offit, and healthy food activist and co-founder of the company Truemed and an outside adviser to RFK, Calley Means.

Well, the Trump administration is walking back its firings of some federal employees.

The Department of Agriculture says it is rescinding termination letters sent to workers who have been supporting the bird flu response. Veterinarians and animal health technicians were not part of the initial layoffs. And it comes after President Trump and Elon Musk announced sweeping cuts to the federal work force, including at the nation's health agencies like the CDC.

Joining us now is director of the Vaccine Education Center at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, Dr. Paul Offit, and healthy food activist and co-founder of the company Truemed and an outside adviser to RFK Calley Means.

Thank you both for coming on for this discussion. I'm looking forward to hearing your perspectives.

Dr. Offit, I want to start with you.

These bird flu response workers are essentially being rehired after Trump and Musk announced these major layoffs at government agencies. What impact do you think these cuts in the health care agencies will have on public health?

DR. PAUL OFFIT, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF PHILADELPHIA: Well, I think they're already having an effect.

I mean, you know that bird flu is circulating. It's affected poultry workers. It's affected dairy workers. And the concern is that it will -- this virus will adapt to be able to grow in the human upper respiratory tract and be spread from one person to the next and then be a pandemic.

And you have cuts in the CDC right now, so much so, for example, you have a measles outbreak in West Texas that's bigger than anything they have seen in 30 years. It's about 58 cases. And there are seven other states that have outbreaks.

But if you look on the CDC Web site, it says that there have been 14 total cases reported this year. And that's a vast underestimate of what it actually is. So I am worried that we're getting the information that we need as we face these pandemics or, in the case of measles, this year's epidemic.

BROWN: Calley, why do you think cuts are a good thing at a time when there are measles outbreaks in six states and the bird flu threat?

CALLEY MEANS, CO-FOUNDER, TRUEMED: Pamela, I just -- it's breathtaking what Dr. Offit is saying, that it's a danger to public health that Bobby Kennedy and President Trump are looking at personnel at HHS and looking at cuts.

The HHS and our public health has utterly failed us. We're the sickest country in the world right now. Dr. Offit is talking about a couple cases here. We have 20 -- 200 million Americans suffering chronic disease right now.

Dr. Offit has been a public health leader for decades, a pediatrician leader. And, under his watch, all that's happened is devastation in the health of American children. Dr. Offit talks a lot about how these cuts and how Bobby Kennedy is decreasing trust in public health.

No, it's the public health leaders themselves, it's people defending with the record that's happening to health at HHS why cuts are bad. Of course we should make cuts. Of course the personnel should be changed. What's causing this trust in public health authorities is conflict of interest, like Dr. Offit taking millions of dollars from pharmaceutical makers like Merck while approving and recommending pharmaceuticals on ACIP committees.

It's the fact that Dr. Offit is saying that science is always settled, when he himself has approved vaccines that have been recalled for causing organ failure for kids. And it's the fact that Dr. Offit is talking about measles, which is important.

And I want to be clear, Pamela. And I want to get this out. It's important, but there were 300 deaths from measles a year before the invention of the vaccine. We have 38 percent of children right now having prediabetes.

Bobby is focused on that. He's focused on reorganizing the department. And that's what we -- should be talked about, not this distraction.

BROWN: And I'm going to come back to you on that central question about the measles and the bird flu and whether cuts right now are -- are -- make sense.

But I want you -- Dr. Offit, obviously, he made a lot of claims there. I want you to respond to that.

And we should note you are a member of the FDA Vaccine Advisory Committee. And you recently told CNN that RFK Jr. will hurt America's vaccine infrastructure. So, please respond to that, and tell us what you know about that.

MEANS: And, Pamela, I hope we can disclose his back -- I hope we can disclose his millions of dollars of pharmaceutical payments while serving on that committee.

BROWN: OK, Dr. Offit, please go ahead and respond.

OFFIT: Well, first of all, you're not allowed to serve on the FDA's Vaccine Advisory Committee if you have a relationship with a pharmaceutical company. And so because I don't have a relationship with a pharmaceutical company, I'm able to serve on that committee.

Secondly, and most importantly, actually, the things that Calley talks about, I actually agree with in some ways. I think that we are, for example, more obese as a country than we should be, and that the consequence of obesity like hypertension and type 2 diabetes, I think we do have, in many ways, more chronic illnesses.

I think we overmedicate our children. I think there's many things we can do better. I actually wrote a book called "Overkill: When Modern Medicine Goes Too Far." So I agree with all that.

What I don't agree with is that, in any way, vaccines are harmful, as RFK Jr. says. I mean, RFK Jr. continues to claim that vaccines cause autism, when they don't. He's now made childhood vaccines a major target of this...

(CROSSTALK)

OFFIT: And that's only going to be to the detriment of children.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Hold on. No, no, Calley. Calley, I have to let Dr. Offit speak. This has to be a civil, respectful conversation in order for this to work and for Americans, viewers to soak this up.

So I want to let Dr. Offit finish, and then I will go to you, Calley, I promise.

Go ahead, Dr. Offit.

OFFIT: No, so I think that when, for example, he says we have more chronic disease in children than ever before, he says the incidence is one in 36.

Well, that's the incidence of autism spectrum disorder. There's a lot of interesting causes of autism spectrum disorder, like the infant microbiome, or genetic, or medicines that women or pregnant people can take during their pregnancy.

[11:35:10]

That's interesting. But by focusing on childhood vaccines, he's focusing on the one thing that doesn't cause autism. And so vaccines, I think, are really the safest, best-tested things that we give to children. And that's what make -- is making America healthy again.

And I think to focus on vaccines as a target and claim that they're causing harms, when they're not, is only a detriment to America's children.

BROWN: And just to be clear, these are two separate issues. There's vaccines, which are proven safe and effective, and we're going to talk more about that. But then there's the issue of chronic disease caused by the food that we're consuming, processed food, and all of that, which, as you both agree on, that needs to be dealt with.

That needs to be a priority, of course, which is why, in many ways, RFK Jr. has gained so much popularity among many Americans on that issue.

But I want to go to you, Calley, to respond. And, also, with this measles threat, is it now a time to promote vaccines, which, again, the CDC says safe and effective, that two doses are 90 percent effective against measles, is it now a time to promote that, especially among children who are being impacted by measles in places like Texas and in these six states who are unvaccinated, according to health officials?

MEANS: Pamela, with respect, why aren't you asking me about the fact that 50 percent of teens have obesity? Why aren't there -- there are breathless segments being run on CNN...

BROWN: I have other questions for you, but we're talking about this...

(CROSSTALK)

MEANS: ... day after day after day, Pamela. It's breathless -- it's breathless coverage of five measles cases.

We -- why aren't we asking why 16 percent of COVID deaths worldwide were Americans, when we're only 4 percent of the world population? Because the CDC said our immune system -- no, it is related. Pamela. And let me say why.

Because the entire coverage of Bobby Kennedy is around measles. The Democrats said the word measles 25 times in the first hearing and said the words obesity, diabetes and chronic disease zero time.

The HHS priority document under President Biden said the word equity 25 times, said the word vaccines countless times, did not say the word obesity or diabetes. There is a problem right now, because there's -- this is not zero -- this is zero sum. We are focused on a very small subset that's important. We need good infectious disease management.

Bobby Kennedy -- Dr. Offit is not correct. Bobby Kennedy has said one thing about vaccines and one thing only, that they should be studied like any other product. Dr. Offit on the ACIP committee has recommended vaccines that have ended up being recalled for causing mass issues to kids. Bobby Kennedy has written multiple books not about being anti-vax, but

about having good science. And Dr. Offit is calling him anti-vaccine for literally just saying we need studies.

BROWN: It's...

MEANS: Bobby Kennedy is not concerned with measles. He wants good policies with measles.

BROWN: OK.

MEANS: He wants to attack the 92 percent of deaths in the United States, which is chronic conditions.

BROWN: I think it is fair to say, given his history and his past remarks, though, that he is at the very least a vaccine skeptic, all right, a vaccine skeptic, it is fair to say.

But honest...

MEANS: I think he's a science -- pro-science advocate.

BROWN: OK.

And, again, Dr. Offit, I want you to respond to some of those claims.

And, Calley, look, we can talk about all of this. And I do want to talk about obesity. So don't make a claim that I'm not asking about important things, because I have covered that on this show. I have covered the movement about what Kellogg's -- what they're trying to do with Kellogg's and trying to take food coloring out of Kellogg's.

I have actually been on the forefront of covering a lot of these issues. So please don't make that claim I'm not asking the right questions.

(CROSSTALK)

MEANS: I will say, during COVID, CNN covered this as a pharmaceutical deficiency, and did not talk about the metabolic links to COVID and how this really was a warning sign for our immune system.

I agree, Pamela, you have covered this issue more than most.

BROWN: OK.

MEANS: But there is a massive slant talking about measles, rather than chronic conditions.

BROWN: OK. And that's your point of view, and you're entitled to that. And, on this show, we try to share all kinds of points of view and different ways of looking at things.

MEANS: Thank you.

BROWN: So I want to go to this 2016 USDA report that shows sugary beverages are the second most purchased items by households that receive SNAP benefits, while desserts are the fifth most purchased.

Senator Mike Lee has introduced the Healthy SNAP Act, which would exclude these items from SNAP.

Doctor, do you think that that's important, a bill like this? Are you in favor of that?

OFFIT: Sure.

I mean, I think that it's certainly true that we can have better health. I think that we do have an increased instance of obesity. I think that things like -- I think we overmedicate our children in many ways. I think that people are reasonably dissatisfied with the health care system.

I think we don't get great bang for our buck with what we spend per capita. I think we -- compared to other developed world countries, we don't have the same length of -- say, length of life longevity or infant mortality rates don't compare favorably. Sure, that's all true. And I think you can have that and also say how important vaccines are.

What worries me about RFK Jr., which is why I think he shouldn't be head of HHS, is, he has been a virulent anti-vaccine activist for the last 20 years. And when he stands in front of the HHS a couple days ago, what did he talk about? He talked about childhood vaccines, number one. He talked about electromagnetic radiation, number two. He talked about pesticides.

[11:40:12]

He didn't talk about the things that Calley's talking about here, which is things like obesity or overmedicating children or sugar drinks. I'm all for that. I agree with that. But you can have both.

MEANS: Everyone should watch the speech. He gave a powerful -- he gave a -- he gave a powerful speech about these issues.

This is what Bobby Kennedy is fighting against, Dr. Offit. As you know, you were the chair at the Children's Hospital, the Merck chair. It was like a NASCAR driver wearing their sponsors. Merck paid your $1.5 million salary.

And this is what Bobby's saying, is that, fundamentally, pharma can create good innovations, but they're foundationally incentivized for children to be sick. Pharma doesn't make money when children are healthy. The hospitals don't make money when the beds are empty.

Chronic disease, just as a demonstrable statement of economic fact, is a great economic invention for the health industry, which demonstrably makes money when patients are sick. And that's an incentive Bobby Kennedy is going hard after.

I'm in Florida. I'm in a state senator's office right now. I'm actually lobbying for these state SNAP bills which Bobby is really supporting to get soda off of SNAP. I think the problem is that the public health community, the Merck chairs of pediatricians, I mean, that is just insane.

Merck does not have children's interests at heart. Merck itself has settled billions of dollars in criminal penalties for misleading and falsifying data in the past 10 years. Like, what Bobby can do is, we need to get away...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: And, by the way, I should -- for transparency, you used to be a pharmaceutical rep, right, Calley?

MEANS: No, no, no.

BROWN: OK.

MEANS: I was -- about 13 years ago was a lobbyist, which included the food and pharma industry.

BROWN: So you were a lobbyist for pharmaceuticals. OK.

MEANS: And my life is dedicated to calling that out.

BROWN: OK, right.

MEANS: Right.

BROWN: Really quick, we do have to go, but, Dr. Offit, I have to have you respond to his claims about Merck and your ties.

OFFIT: Sure.

What he does is what RFK Jr. does, which is what all personal injury lawyer types do, which is, when the data aren't on their side, then they attack the person.

I'm not Bobby Kennedy Jr's problem.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Hold on, Calley. Let him talk.

(CROSSTALK)

MEANS: Were you not the Merck chair?

BROWN: Calley, please, please. I want to...

OFFIT: I don't receive a -- OK. It's -- I do not have a conflict of interest. The Merck chair is defined by Penn. And Penn -- there is no quid pro quo to being -- having endowed chairs. Anybody who receives endowed chair -- an endowed chair would know.

Secondly, it's like that, because there aren't the data on their side regarding vaccines, they do what all personal injury lawyer types do, which is attack the witness.

I'm not RFK Jr.'s problem. The science that has continually shown he's wrong about vaccines...

(CROSSTALK)

OFFIT: And he is wrong about vaccines. That's the problem.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: All right, thank you both for coming on.

Again...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: OK, Calley, I let you say your piece. Dr. Offit, I let you also respond. And I appreciate you coming on for this spirited discussion, shall we say. Thank you for joining us.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:47:28]

BROWN: Well, this morning, Italy's prime minister has visited Pope Francis in the hospital and says he was alert and reactive. The 88- year-old pontiff is fighting pneumonia in both lungs.

CNN Vatican correspondent Christopher Lamb is in Rome.

Christopher, this sounds pretty serious. What can you tell us about the pope's condition?

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, it is a concerning situation for Pope Francis, who is into his sixth day of hospitalization here at the Gemelli Hospital behind me.

The pontiff is 88 years old and has had respiratory infections in the past. He had part of his right lung removed as a young man. So it is very concerning that he has pneumonia in both of his lungs.

However, there was some more encouraging news this morning, the Vatican saying the pope had a peaceful night. He had breakfast, and a Vatican source saying he's been sitting in a chair. And, of course, he had that visit from Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni.

We're also hearing there may be further visit from a senior Vatican official, but we don't know how long the pope is going to be in hospital. It is unclear what sort of timetable there is for how long the treatment the pope will need to have and how long that's going to take.

We are expecting a further update from the Vatican later today. And, of course, we will update with any additional information as soon as we have got it -- Pamela.

BROWN: All right, Christopher Lamb in Rome, thank you. And still ahead: Sean "Diddy" Combs moves to dismiss a federal charge

against him. His reasoning? He says the statute was racist origins.

We explain ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:53:43]

BROWN: New developments this morning in the criminal case against Sean "Diddy" Combs.

He is moving to dismiss a federal charge against him. And he's arguing that racism is involved in his prosecution.

CNN's Elizabeth Wagmeister joins us now.

What more can you tell us, Elizabeth?

ELIZABETH WAGMEISTER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Pam, this filing coming last night.

And Sean "Diddy" Combs is moving to dismiss one of the three federal charges that he faces. Now, the charge that he is moving to dismiss is transportation to engage in prostitution. And, as you said, his defense is claiming that he has been subjected to a racist prosecution.

Now, I want to read you a part direct from this filing. His team says -- quote -- "This case is unprecedented in many ways, but, perhaps most notably and most disturbingly, no white person has ever been the target of a remotely similar prosecution."

They go on to say: "Mr. Combs has been singled out because he is a powerful black man. And he is being prosecuted for conduct that regularly goes unpunished."

Now, what they are referring to here is something called the Mann Act. This was established in the year 1910, and it was previously called the White Slave Traffic Act. It was passed to prohibit the transportation of women for prostitution and human trafficking. Now, Combs' team says that this statute is only used to prosecute black people.

[11:55:06]

But I have to tell you that it was recently actually used to convict Ghislaine Maxwell in her case. So this is a stunning filing, really. But I have to tell you, Pam, this is actually not the first time that they have alluded to this. Last year, in an interview with TMZ, Combs' team said that this entire case is the takedown of a successful black man.

Now, we have reached out to prosecutors. They have not responded to this filing, but after that TMZ interview last year, they objected to it, telling the judge that those are baseless accusations. BROWN: All right, Elizabeth, thank you so much.

And thank you so much for joining us. I'm Pamela Brown. You can follow me on Instagram, TikTok and X @PamelaBrownCNN.

Stay with us. "INSIDE POLITICS WITH DANA BASH" starts after a short break.