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Pete Hegseth Set to Fire Admirals and Generals?; Interview With Rep. Robert Garcia (D-CA); Senate Set to Vote on Kash Patel; Interview With Sen. Jacky Rosen (D-NV); U.S.-Ukraine Relationship Falling Apart?. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired February 20, 2025 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:32]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Good morning to you. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Pamela Brown in Washington.

And we begin this hour with Russia's war in Ukraine, the U.S. efforts to end it and new signs of a disintegrating relationship between Washington and Kyiv. This morning, in Ukraine's capital, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy met with the U.S. envoy to his country. The two were expected to speak with journalists afterward, but a short time ago we learned that is not happening.

Overshadowing the meeting, President Trump has repeatedly called Zelenskyy a dictator and blamed him for the war. Those are Russian talking points and simply not true.

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh is in Kyiv.

Nick, what are you learning there?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, look, it's a fast-moving day here between the Ukraine and Russia envoy, the Trump administration general, Keith Kellogg, in his long- awaited meeting with Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy.

There have been many waiting this to happen for weeks. Finally, it gets under way. They briefly appear in front of the cameras. Journalists gather, I think, in the expectation that you might normally expect later, potentially, some sort of press availability.

But we are then told by an aide to the Ukrainian president that, at the request of the American side, there won't be press statements after that particular meeting. At this point, we don't know if that talk is still ongoing. We are, of course -- we understand from an aide to the Ukrainian president that Kellogg will still be in town towards the end of tomorrow as planned.

There's been no change to his schedule. But, clearly, the desire for the American side to not have this public moment between both men, that may be simply down to diplomatic protocol, but it is most likely a reflection of the increased tension between Washington and Kyiv that we have seen, frankly, explode in the simple not even 20 hours that General Kellogg has been in town. He stepped off a train yesterday morning, it feels like an age ago

now, confident, he said, saying he was here to listen, wanting to hear what Ukraine needed in terms of security guarantees. But we have had the back-and-forth, the relentless, at times, I think, onslaught of mistruths from President Donald Trump against President Zelenskyy that really has changed the tone of this conversation.

And now I think there are large questions as to the future of the U.S.-Ukraine relationship, period.

BROWN: Nick Paton Walsh, thank you so much.

Let's discuss all of this with Democratic Senator Jacky Rosen of Nevada. She is on the Foreign Relations Committee.

Senator, thank you for being here with us.

I'm wondering how you are viewing this. Do you see this as a leverage move to pressure Zelenskyy, or are we witnessing the beginning of a new world order here?

SEN. JACKY ROSEN (D-NV): Well, I, frankly, think it's embarrassing that Donald Trump, President Trump, called Zelenskyy a dictator, when clearly this war was started by the real dictator, who's Vladimir Putin, brutally invading a democratic sovereign nation.

This war could stop tomorrow if Putin stops it. He started it. He can stop it. And so what's going on right now, this is good that they're at least talking to Zelenskyy, but the president, others having meetings with Vladimir Putin without bringing Ukraine to the table, this is unacceptable.

We wouldn't have any negotiations with any other countries like this. They need to be involved, and they need to agree to any kind of deal that may go forward.

BROWN: Our national security team here at CNN has some new reporting that the U.S. intel is assessing that Vladimir Putin isn't really serious about reaching a peace deal and that he's just focused on his maximalist views when it comes to Ukraine.

What do you know about that?

ROSEN: Well, what I can tell you is what we all know, is that Vladimir Putin's dream is to put together a Russia from another century. And he will stop at nothing to do that.

And how he's working, maybe using the United States in this moment, with Donald Trump -- Donald Trump now trying to flip the script on what happened in this war, frankly, it's embarrassing. It's disappointing. And we need to be sure that we strengthen our ties with our Democratic allies and partners around the world against brutal dictators like Vladimir Putin, like China, like North Korea.

And that is what will keep us safe ultimately all around the world.

BROWN: Vice President J.D. Vance was just speaking on U.S. negotiations with Russia on Ukraine at CPAC. I want to listen to that.

[11:05:04]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And why are you talking to Russia? Well, how are you going to end the war unless you're talking to Russia? You have got to talk to everybody involved in the fighting if you actually want to bring the conflict to a close.

(APPLAUSE)

VANCE: And I know the president does.

But I will tell you the goals that animate President Trump's policy. It's really simple. He wants the killing to stop. He wants to bring lasting peace to Europe. He doesn't just want to stop it now and have the war restart a month from now. He wants to bring lasting peace to Europe, because the president believes this and he's absolutely right.

Peace is in the interest of Russia. It's in the interest of Ukraine. It's in the interest of Europe. But, most importantly, peace is in the interest of the American people, and he's going to fight for it for the remainder of his administration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Do you believe, as the vice president says, that Trump's actions will bring lasting peace to Europe?

ROSEN: Well, I can tell you what will bring lasting peace to Europe is pushing Vladimir Putin back, is not giving in to what he wants.

This was his goal the whole time, is to keep pushing, pushing more towards putting back together Russia from another century. He's not going to stop at that. So what's actually going to make us safer, more safety and peaceful, peace around the world is for us to strengthen our partnership with our NATO allies and other partners and allies around the world, democratic nations, really pushing back on bullies and dictators who think that they can march in, kill people, bomb hospitals, do all of these things, and then they're going to get what they want.

We shouldn't be giving in to a bully. And I'm going to stand tall for that, and I hope my Republican colleagues will recognize the truth on that and stand with us on the Armed Services Committee and the Foreign Relations Committee.

BROWN: Some have been outspoken, some. You have Senator Wicker. You have Senator Graham. But others have stayed quiet, others who we know what their views are on Russia because they have said it previously.

What are you hearing from your Republican colleagues? Would you like to see more of them speak out publicly?

ROSEN: I would love for more of them to speak out publicly. We know what they said in the past before Donald Trump was reelected

president. We know what they think. We know what they have stood for. And so they need to stand tall and stand up for democracy, stand up for our allies, stand up for what we created post-World War II during the Cold War that has kept us safe for so many years.

How do we build on that? How do we strengthen that? They know the answer to that. They need to come forward. I can't speak for them, but I will say it's disappointing to see their lack of engagement on this in the public arena.

BROWN: You mentioned a lack of engagement there.

There are many Democratic voters out there who are frustrated with your party's response to everything, response to Trump so far. They think that there has been a lack of engagement from Democrats on really critical issues. Are you satisfied with Democratic leadership right now?

ROSEN: Well, I can tell you that it's not even been 100 days of the Trump presidency, and there's been a lot of chaos, to say the least.

We're trying to get a handle on what's going on. We're starting with our committees. We're trying to be sure that the Senate stands for what we do, that we stand up and that we assert ourselves as a separate but equal co-branch of government.

And so it is important that we continue to move forward with our hearings, with transparency. We think about all the things that are going on. The president fires all the inspector generals. He wants transparency in government. You don't fire the watchdogs who help you do that.

We have things going on in Europe and Ukraine and the Middle East. You don't go through and eliminate everything that will make us safer.

BROWN: Right.

ROSEN: And so we're trying to get a handle on what's going on, so that we can move forward in a productive way. And I'm willing to work with anyone to get that done.

BROWN: And, certainly, there's been a lot coming out, everyone -- since President Trump took office.

ROSEN: Yes.

BROWN: I think he would admit that himself.

But I just circle back to the initial question. Are you satisfied with Democratic leadership right now? Do you think Democratic leadership is doing enough or would you like them -- to see them do more?

ROSEN: Well, I think that we have to realize that we're in the minority. They have the White House, they have the House and they have the Senate. So, the tools that are available to us here as legislators, certainly

as senators and members of Congress, they are limited. So, what can we do? We can use litigation. We can use some legislation. We can use hearings. We can speak out. We can speak up. We can highlight.

We can do everything we can to push back and show the transparency of what is really going on behind the scenes, maybe what the Trump administration doesn't want you to see, to push back on, frankly, the lies, that Vladimir Putin didn't start this war, that somehow Ukrainians started this war.

[11:10:06]

It's not true. And so we just need to be sure that we push back and we're visible. I'm grateful for coming on the show and having a chance to talk about these things. We have to really show what's going on, so the American people have an opportunity to see it.

BROWN: I want to ask you about something else. Axios is reporting that you are leading a Democratic effort that would cut off funding to enforce Trump's order to end birthright citizenship. Tell me more about that. Are any of your Republican colleagues supportive of this?

ROSEN: Well, I hope that they would be because we passed the 14th Amendment in the 1800s. That has been settled law.

If you're born in America, you are an American citizen, period, period. And so the bill that we put in, Born in the USA Act, what it does is, it doesn't allow for any resources, funding or manpower for Trump to kind of strip this, the rights of this amendment away from any of us.

We don't know what he's going to do, but we're trying to be proactive, because, if you're born in America, you're an American citizen. And I want to fight to be sure that everybody who's born here gets to retain that citizenship.

BROWN: Senator Jacky Rosen, thank you so much for coming on the show.

ROSEN: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

BROWN: At any moment now on Capitol Hill, senators could begin voting to break a filibuster on Kash Patel's nomination for FBI director. It could mean a confirmation vote happens this afternoon.

CNN's Evan Perez joins us and Manu Raju is on Capitol Hill.

All right, Manu, does it look like Patel could get enough support?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it really does. In fact, the vote is happening right now to break a Democratic filibuster. This effort by Democrats has been mounting for weeks trying to delay, trying to derail Kash Patel's nomination.

But they simply do not have the votes unless four Republicans break ranks to stop this nomination from advancing. And, right now, no Republican senators have said that they would vote no. Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, a key swing vote. I just asked her how she would vote on Kash Patel. She said that she would vote to advance the nomination, meaning that she would vote yes on this first procedural vote.

And then it would move to a final confirmation vote. She did not say how she would vote then. Another vote to watch, Senator Susan Collins of Maine. Just moments ago, she told me that she would issue a statement shortly about how she would ultimately vote on this critical nomination.

But even if she were to vote no, and even if Lisa Murkowski on the final confirmation vote were to vote no, there simply are not four Republicans who are expected to break ranks, which means that he is very likely to get confirmed on a straight party-line vote or a largely party-line vote, despite major concerns voiced by Democrats that Kash Patel, in their view, would carry out Donald Trump's agenda of retaliation and the like.

And there are concerns that Christopher Wray -- how he was essentially pushed out of this position. Typically, FBI directors serve 10-year terms. New administrations typically don't install an FBI director right off the bat. But that's what Trump did here with Kash Patel, but that Republicans saying he is a needed voice to reform this investigative body.

And their support is all that he needs to get confirmed, which is why we expect the votes to ultimately be there this afternoon, Pamela.

BROWN: I want to bring in Evan.

Manu who just talked about your Democratic concerns. They pressed him on that during the hearing. And what promises did Patel make in response?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, one of the things that really was remarkable about the Kash Patel hearings, the hearing that was held for his nomination, is that he denied that there was any plans to go after, to do retribution against so-called enemies.

He has in the past, as you know, spoken very, very publicly about an enemies list. If you remember, there was his -- I think we can put up some of the graphics here show -- showing notable people on his list from his book "Government Gangsters." You see people like Hillary Clinton. You see people like Joe Biden, Bill Barr, for whatever reason.

Some of these are enemies that go back to 2016 and the first Mueller investigation or FBI investigation into Trump and Russia, his campaign ties to Russia, and of course, now more recently, the FBI and the Justice Department investigations of Trump related to January 6, and, of course, the classified documents case, which Patel was one of the people who had to provide grand jury testimony.

So he does have a clear record of saying what he wants to do. But during the hearings, he has more recently said, I'm not coming in with an enemies list. I'm going to refocus the FBI on fighting crime. The agents inside that I talk to don't really believe that that is the

case.

BROWN: Hmm. Interesting.

Evan Perez, Manu Raju, thank you both.

And still ahead: One of the president's handpicked prosecutors threatens anyone who threatens Trump allies. That comes after Democratic Congressman Robert Garcia said his party needs to -- quote -- "bring actual weapons in the fight for democracy." He will join us next.

[11:15:07]

And Trump's first month in office has been full of action and full of proven lies. We are fact-checking the biggest ones ahead in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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BROWN: New this morning, two sources tell CNN that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth could fire some senior generals and admiral soon.

CNN national security correspondent Natasha Bertrand joins us with her reporting.

So who would be targeted and why?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so we're being told that they could move to fire these senior generals and admirals as soon as this week.

And it includes a list that is circulating on Capitol Hill right now that has been briefed to Republicans of about a little over half-a- dozen generals, as well as admirals, who could be on the chopping block here.

[11:20:04]

That includes the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, C.Q. Brown. It also includes the chief of naval operations, Franchetti, who is the first female member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And the reason for this is unclear. However, we should note that Brown and Franchetti, they have both been specifically targeted by Secretary of Defense Hegseth in the past, particularly on the Shawn Ryan podcast just before Hegseth was nominated to be secretary of defense.

He actually said that C.Q. Brown should be fired because of his focus on DEI and his focus on diversity in the military. And he also took aim at Franchetti, saying in a book that she essentially was only hired for the job because she is a woman.

So this all comes amid this broader promise that Hegseth made before he was put in as secretary of defense to purge generals and admirals from the U.S. military that are perceived as woke, too focused on diversity initiatives in the military, and also too close to the former secretary of defense, Lloyd Austin.

So it remains unclear whether these firings are actually going to happen. This is just a list that has been briefed to Republicans, we are told, on Capitol Hill. But, still, rumors about these potential firings have been circulating in the Pentagon for weeks and weeks. And it seems now they could be more imminent because of this list that has gone to Capitol Hill.

BROWN: And C.Q. Brown is a minority, right?

BERTRAND: Yes.

BROWN: Yes.

The top federal prosecutor in Washington, D.C., is vowing to investigate anyone who threatens the president or his political allies.

Donald Trump-appointed interim attorney Ed Martin says that he's launching -- quote -- "Operation Whirlwind" to protect federal workers, including Elon Musk and staffers on his government efficiency team.

"The Washington Post" reports that Martin wants Congressman Robert Garcia to clarify these remarks that he made on CNN, saying: "I think he's also harming the American public in an enormous way. And what I think is really important and what the American public wants is for us to bring actual weapons to this bar fight. This is an actual fight for democracy for the future of the country. And it's important to push back on the chairperson of this committee."

All right, Congressman Garcia joins us now.

Congressman, first of all, did you receive a letter from Ed Martin?

REP. ROBERT GARCIA (D-CA): Well, what's really interesting, of course, is we actually -- our office has not yet received the letter. "The Washington Post" sent us the letter.

And so we have the letter because "The Washington Post" sent it to us. It's really unfortunate that they chose to take that avenue, which is actually directly sending us the letter. But we have a copy of this letter that supposedly is coming to our office.

BROWN: I want to clarify what you meant when you said, or have you respond to it, I should say -- quote -- "What the American people want is for us to bring actual weapons to this bar fight."

Was that meant to be taken as a threat?

GARCIA: Well, I don't think there's a reasonable person that would watch the clip, that interview on CNN, or listen to those words and think that was threatening in any way.

Obviously, we all use metaphors and figures of speech. I think what's really important is that we're very clear, we have always been, violence, of course, is never the answer. But this is a country that also people have a right to be able to push back and oppose whatever government is in power.

And this idea that members of Congress shouldn't have the ability to oppose the Trump administration with figures of speech, I think, is quite dangerous. And so I think, broadly speaking, I sit on the DOGE Committee. That interview was given the same day that we had the committee, just a couple hours after.

And it's important that we are able to, in the halls of Congress, to have an actual debate and oppose the issues in front of us. We are in a very dangerous moment in our country with the social safety net, like Social Security and Medicaid, being debated, people losing benefits, people losing jobs.

We should be allowed to oppose Elon Musk. And so I'm not going to be silenced. I think it's important for people to be able to push back forcefully.

BROWN: You're right. I mean, this opens up a conversation about where is the line here when it comes to free speech and a legitimate threat to federal employees?

And I do wonder, though, in light of the threat environment that we're in, and we have seen threats to politicians and so forth, do you regret your language at all? Or would you just double down on it?

GARCIA: Well, I don't regret using metaphors and figures of speech. And, clearly, anyone that would watch the interview would -- there's clearly -- it was a -- it's a figure of speech, and people use this all the time. I think what's dangerous is trying to silence members of Congress from actually opposing the administration.

[11:25:03]

We have the richest person the planet right now dismantling much of our federal institutions. We have people that are losing jobs across this country. We have Medicaid on the chopping block. We have the Department of Public Education seeing huge possible cuts in front of it that are going to impact real families across this country.

What is important, and what I have been trying to say, is that Democrats need to be in this fight. We need to be in this fight for democracy. And that's exactly what I said in that interview. And so what shouldn't happen in this country is not allowing members of Congress to oppose policies that we strongly disagree with.

And so I think that it's -- again, we would love to see this letter officially that apparently has been sent to the press before it was sent to us, but make no mistake about it. We will not back down in defending our country and defending the programs that people depend on for their own livelihoods.

BROWN: In this letter, Ed Martin also said that those who help freed the January 6 prisoners have also been receiving threats. That will be investigated. What do you think about that? Should they deserve -- do they deserve protection?

GARCIA: I mean, look, I -- first I know that Mr. Martin, I think, was involved in defending some of the January 6 folks. Obviously, I have been very clear. I think that the folks that attacked our Capitol and tried to overthrow our government should have been held accountable to the law, should have been held accountable and responsible for the actions they took and the harm that they caused.

And I think it's really important that members of Congress -- this is not about me. This is about attacking our institutions. It's about ensuring that we have loyal opposition and that we're able to speak freely, particularly within our own Congress.

I mean, I made -- we made those remarks, of course, moments after we had left the committee hearing. And so what's really critical at this moment, I think, for all of us to understand is that we should be allowed to speak freely. And we certainly should be allowed to use figures of speech.

And anyone that watches that can see that was a figure of speech or a metaphor in the way we're describing this fight. And it is a fight. This is a fight for democracy.

BROWN: As we wrap up, I do want to go to the fact that, as you mentioned, you're on the DOGE Committee, Oversight.

I'm just wondering, bring us behind the scenes of the conversations going on. Are you talking to your Republican colleagues? What do you want to see happen with holding Elon Musk and his DOGE staffers accountable? What do you think needs to happen?

Because while he's posting -- quote, unquote -- "receipts" and so forth, there's not a lot of transparency about what he is actually doing in these government agencies that he has contracts before.

GARCIA: That's right.

And I think, look, the Democrats on an Oversight have been pretty clear. We have voted unanimously. We want to have Elon Musk in front of our Oversight Committee, in front of the DOGE Committee to actually answer these questions. The Republicans have refused to do that.

Elon Musk, the DOGE Committee, certainly those involved, they have a responsibility to the American public to explain exactly what's going on. What we do know is, we are hearing from hundreds and thousands of people across this country who are losing jobs, but no explanation as to why. They just received a promotion, but are being fired.

We have over 400 technicians from the FAA who help patrol our skies and help keep our skies safe being let go, while we're seeing, of course, some serious accidents happen in our skies. We have people in universities across this country being told that they're losing funding for programs.

This is incredibly serious. And so I think, at this moment, we have got to be able to push back and be very clear that we do not support this dismantling of the very programs that protect people. And now we know that there's a strong support within the Republican Party to take on Medicaid.

I mean, the amount of people that are dependent on Medicaid across this country, it is staggering that they are going to take this program on that literally provides the ability for people to live in this country.

So these are very -- we should all be very concerned. And we're going to continue to speak out. I think it's really important that we're not silent. This is -- this is for a party that loves to talk about free speech, I mean, come on. And so we're going to continue to call these, what we think are dangerous actions out.

And we have got to be tough. I think it's important. And what we have been saying is, Democrats in this moment have to be tough. We have got to push back. We have got to fight back in a way that protects our democracy.

BROWN: Congressman Robert Garcia, thank you so much for your time.

GARCIA: Thank you.

BROWN: And still ahead: A Texas woman says her 11-year-old daughter took her own life after bullies threatened to call ICE on their family.

We have the heartbreaking story next.

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